Biodiesel, Worthwhile Fuel? - DFWstangs Forums
 
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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-23-2006, 09:54 PM Thread Starter
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Biodiesel, Worthwhile Fuel?

Just looking at Biodiesel, I see it has some value as a renewable energy source, but it also has some flaws.

Higher NOx Output
Hazardous Chemical Exposure
2 gallons "waste" water created for every gallon of diesel made
Lots of methanol used in the process

Is it a good alternative, or are these insurmountable obstacles? Any Biodiesel Experts?

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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-23-2006, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MouseKiller
Just looking at Biodiesel, I see it has some value as a renewable energy source, but it also has some flaws.

Higher NOx Output
Hazardous Chemical Exposure
2 gallons "waste" water created for every gallon of diesel made
Lots of methanol used in the process

Is it a good alternative, or are these insurmountable obstacles? Any Biodiesel Experts?
Already ordered me a set up. Not sure where you are getting your input but that is not true.

I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is.
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-23-2006, 10:12 PM
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just dont run it in a 6.0L ford
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-23-2006, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Skidonenko
just dont run it in a 6.0L ford
Been running B100 in a 2004 6.0L Ford for over a year without a problem.

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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-23-2006, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dewayne6243
Been running B100 in a 2004 6.0L Ford for over a year without a problem.
If its good clean dry fuel it will work, but you get some that has sat and has moisture in it and it will tear up fuel pumps and injectors. The 6.0 dosent like old farm/red fuel either. That and more than 5% bio in the tank can get your 100k mile powertrain voided really quick (if its suspect and they do a fuel sample ofcourse).
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-23-2006, 10:33 PM
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So where are you guys getting this biodiesel? I know they've found a way to produce it much faster and much cheaper (30-40 cents per gallon) with a new "micro-reactor" at the UTA nanotech research center. So it should be more readily available. However that does not mean the price will drop, it means the companies will make 30-40 cents more per gallon unless they're feeling generous.
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-24-2006, 09:18 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dewayne6243
Already ordered me a set up. Not sure where you are getting your input but that is not true.
US Department of Energy is one source

http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesa..._mccormick.pdf -


The NOx potential is higher, Dependent upon the application. In an old IDI engine, it is usually only a 10% increase. But in the Newer turbodiesel applications like the powerstroke or cummins, that increase can be 30% or more.

A good aspect of biodiesel is that particulate matter and Hydrocarbon emissions drop sharply compared to "dinodiesel", indicating more complete combustion.

I know there are several "recipes" to make biodiesel, but all I have seen require the use of caustic soda and water to remove soaps. I understand the process also requires cooking, where light hydrocarbons and water are boiled off while the process undergoes a chemical change. This offsets any emissions benefit, unless some effort is made to reclaim what is boiled off.

Removing Glycerin is also a big problem, from what I understand glycerin is the cause of scuffed injectors and damage to modern diesel engines.

So I dunno about biodiesel, I really like the fact that it is a renewable fuel with large potential, but it has some obstacles to overcome. I think the biggest issue is the "home distiller". It scares the crud out of me that someone in my neighborhood has a "still" and is brewing up some of his own "renewable fuel" in an old water heater.

Large scale refieries can probably overcome the waste water and emissions concerns, and probably already have done so. This leaves the NOx issue....I see more catalyst's in our future.

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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-24-2006, 09:26 AM
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NOx....How about you explain to u exactly what you are referring to when you type that, and what its potential harms are.

And the refining process will completely change soon.
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-24-2006, 09:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MouseKiller
US Department of Energy is one source

http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesa..._mccormick.pdf -


The NOx potential is higher, Dependent upon the application. In an old IDI engine, it is usually only a 10% increase. But in the Newer turbodiesel applications like the powerstroke or cummins, that increase can be 30% or more.

A good aspect of biodiesel is that particulate matter and Hydrocarbon emissions drop sharply compared to "dinodiesel", indicating more complete combustion.

I know there are several "recipes" to make biodiesel, but all I have seen require the use of caustic soda and water to remove soaps. I understand the process also requires cooking, where light hydrocarbons and water are boiled off while the process undergoes a chemical change. This offsets any emissions benefit, unless some effort is made to reclaim what is boiled off.

Removing Glycerin is also a big problem, from what I understand glycerin is the cause of scuffed injectors and damage to modern diesel engines.

So I dunno about biodiesel, I really like the fact that it is a renewable fuel with large potential, but it has some obstacles to overcome. I think the biggest issue is the "home distiller". It scares the crud out of me that someone in my neighborhood has a "still" and is brewing up some of his own "renewable fuel" in an old water heater.

Large scale refieries can probably overcome the waste water and emissions concerns, and probably already have done so. This leaves the NOx issue....I see more catalyst's in our future.
You need to talk to someone that really makes it. 120 degrees is not boiling and that is what you need to make the reaction. The glycerin is drained off the bottom and it is almost black so you can see it. It takes like 10 gallons of methanol per 100 gallons of oil which turns into glycerin which is soap which is 100% biodegradable. The waste water is not toxic and can be poured out on the ground if you want to. My kit that I got is a little more high dollar and has a big plastic tank with a heater in it. Either way I get all the vegie oil I want for free so I will be making bio for .50 a gallon at 100 gallons twice a week.

I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is.
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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-24-2006, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ruffdaddy
So where are you guys getting this biodiesel?
There are 2 or 3 truck stops around Hillsboro that supply Biodeisel owned by Willie Nelson. Carls Corner on I-35E just north of Hillsboro and KNOX Truck Stops on I-35 south of Hillsboro.
Every time I go by there are trucks lined up that even come from I-20 down there to support it.
I say let's let our farmers (not EXXON) sell ethonal and biodeisel to the Saudi's for about $10 a gallon. The Saudi's and EXXON can kiss my ass!
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-24-2006, 09:36 AM
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Well when that hurricane hits this summer I won't be paying $5 for a gallon of gas.

I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is.
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-24-2006, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dewayne6243
Well when that hurricane hits this summer I won't be paying $5 for a gallon of gas.
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-25-2006, 02:40 PM
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I'm completely on board with BioDiesel. Not just as a do it yourself typed deal (which is a good thing) but as a true suppliment to the diesel supply. The only reason I don't own a diesel vehicle is because of all the stupid EPA rule changes (especially the particulate matter insanity) that will go into effect in 2008. Coincidentally, 2008 is when I'll be buying a new car and diesels will be at the top of my list....

BTW, as some of you already know, VW is dropping diesels for 2007 because of the switch to low sulfer fuels but they will be back in 2008 with a common rail diesel. However VW recently announced that they have developed a 1.3 liter "twin charger" gasoline engine that gets 170HP and has the same fuel economy as a diesel. The twin charger concept has a turbo for high rpm power and a super charger for low end power. There is even talk at VW of not bringing the diesel back to the US because the twin charger is so good. They will keep selling in Europe because diesel isn't taxed nearly as much as gasoline. Just an interesting tidbit.

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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-25-2006, 09:38 PM
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I don't know that much about it but Audi now uses a deisel racing engine for Le Mans and is apparently kicking ass with it.
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-27-2006, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dewayne6243
Already ordered me a set up. Not sure where you are getting your input but that is not true.
I'm pretty sure it is. How do you intend to make it?
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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-27-2006, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MouseKiller
Just looking at Biodiesel, I see it has some value as a renewable energy source, but it also has some flaws.

Higher NOx Output
Hazardous Chemical Exposure
2 gallons "waste" water created for every gallon of diesel made
Lots of methanol used in the process

Is it a good alternative, or are these insurmountable obstacles? Any Biodiesel Experts?
The very worst aspect in commercial fleets is the higher gel temp. It gels up easier than regular deisel, and adding naptha doesn't work as well.

There are some chemical hazards in the manufacturing process, if you have a fully set up operation then you can deal with them for the most part. That means something more than the corner of your garage.

The best deisel alternative I've seen is aqua-deisel, it is made from deisel and water. It uses a process similar to that for making low sulphur deisel.

A better deal seems to be plasma fuel reformers, and these should be available for gasoline engines soon. Theoretically you could run 14:1 compression on cheap unleaded pump gas.
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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-27-2006, 10:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by black01gt
I don't know that much about it but Audi now uses a deisel racing engine for Le Mans and is apparently kicking ass with it.
It used a 100% synthetic fuel, not something you can buy at a pump anywhere. Still though it was an amazing concept and did kick much ass while getting better fuel economy than anything else in the race.

Wait until December though when the new 07' fuel standards are in place. Prices are expected to increase 40% for diesel and finding the old fuel will be very difficult.

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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-27-2006, 11:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BP
It used a 100% synthetic fuel, not something you can buy at a pump anywhere. Still though it was an amazing concept and did kick much ass while getting better fuel economy than anything else in the race.

Wait until December though when the new 07' fuel standards are in place. Prices are expected to increase 40% for diesel and finding the old fuel will be very difficult.
The FUEL is already out in some places.
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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 06-27-2006, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mach1Marauder
The FUEL is already out in some places.
Yes but it's mandatory by the end of the year, and we all know what happens when changes are mandatory. Shortages and price increases are soon to follow.

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