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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-18-2005, 01:49 PM Thread Starter
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Definition of a liberal?

I have called several people a liberal based upon their posts, some have been self-proclaimed and some deny the label.

I ask this question then, What is a liberal?

I can offer a few definitions, but I don't want the liberals to attack my definitions without offering up their own definitions so I will keep them simple.

You might be a liberal if:

You support abortion (kiliing of innocent life) and are anti-death penalty(the killing of guilty life).

You think the government is corrupt, especially when run by Republicans, but support more taxes for that same corrupt government to control.

You think Libby lying to a grand jury/under oath (committing a felony) is bad but a sitting President lying to a grand jury/under oath (committing a felony) is ok because he comes from your party.

You think Bush lied about WMD even though every major Democrat came out and publicly agreed that the intelligence they saw showed clear evidence that there were WMD in Iraq.

I would really like to hear from those who think they have liberal tendencies to explain what they think a liberal is, I already know what conservatives/traditionalists like myself think.

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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-18-2005, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 90 Notch
I have called several people a liberal based upon their posts, some have been self-proclaimed and some deny the label.

I ask this question then, What is a liberal?

I can offer a few definitions, but I don't want the liberals to attack my definitions without offering up their own definitions so I will keep them simple.

You might be a liberal if:

You support abortion (kiliing of innocent life) and are anti-death penalty(the killing of guilty life).

You think the government is corrupt, especially when run by Republicans, but support more taxes for that same corrupt government to control.

You think Libby lying to a grand jury/under oath (committing a felony) is bad but a sitting President lying to a grand jury/under oath (committing a felony) is ok because he comes from your party.

You think Bush lied about WMD even though every major Democrat came out and publicly agreed that the intelligence they saw showed clear evidence that there were WMD in Iraq.

I would really like to hear from those who think they have liberal tendencies to explain what they think a liberal is, I already know what conservatives/traditionalists like myself think.
I don't approve abortion but I don't approve of telling others what is right or wrong based off of a moral or religious driven conviction. We are supposed to have a seperation of church and state. I am a Christian but don't feel the need to make you one or judge you, God will do that in the end. Same as flag burning I hate the idea but recognize it is communist to tell someone they don't have that right no matter how fucked up they are.

I think chunks of our government are somewhat corrupt be it dems or reps party is not an issue. I hate taxes but don't want massive tax breaks that will later be a catalyst for even higher taxes when the government wants to fund some stupid shit like No Child left Behind.

I think what Libby lied about was no different than Clintons lies. I do feel that a lie over a blow job versus popping the cover on an agent that risked her life for our nation is a little different in what I view a pervert versus treason.


WMD I think Bush went off what was offered him and I also feel he won't just fucking say yeah we fucked up initially on intelligence but we are here and that is just how it is. Cheney is a fucking lair in that he has been shown on TV stating I didn't say that Iraq had the ability to make WMD then a a clip shows in an interview where he said just that before the Iraq invasion.

I think you guys scream liberal at anyone who even remotely has a democratic tendecy. I am liberal in that I support change,have political and social views favoring reform and progress, I have broad political stance. If you think a liberal is a tree hugging, radical left winger, hater of Bush then you need to grab a dictionary. I don't like T. Kennedy he is a hard core left wing nut job not a liberal as he claims.
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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-18-2005, 02:48 PM
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A liberal minded person is someone that thinks;

life should be fair for everyone and the government should make it that way.

the government creates jobs and can give out prosperity.
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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-18-2005, 02:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro Trash
...but I don't approve of telling others what is right or wrong based off of a moral or religious driven conviction.
How else do you conclude what is right and wrong, if it isn't moral or religious based?

Quote:
Same as flag burning I hate the idea but recognize it is communist to tell someone they don't have that right no matter how fucked up they are.
I have to agree with PT on the flag burning. The flag is a symbol of our country and our ideals, but which is greater, the ideals or a flag which represents those ideals.
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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-18-2005, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro Trash

I think what Libby lied about was no different than Clintons lies. I do feel that a lie over a blow job versus popping the cover on an agent that risked her life for our nation is a little different in what I view a pervert versus treason.
And we are quickly finding out he didnt lie about anything, ESPECIALLY outing a CIA agent that WASNT covert, the basis behind the investigation. She was well know as a CIA employee long before the article came out.
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-18-2005, 06:28 PM
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I’ve long believed that the basic ideological differences between people can be disseminated into two distinct schools of thought on the essence of man. Either you believe in the fundamental concept of man as intrinsically flawed and imperfect; or you believe in the innate goodness of man. Typically these two dichotomous ideas manifest themselves today as Conservative and (neo)Liberal.

Conservatives believe that man is sinful and that governments exist to restrain men. “But what is government itself but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government of men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.” (James Madison, Federalist 51, 1787-88.)

Indeed our Constitution is testimony to the ‘conservative’ nature of our fore-fathers who having experienced tyranny wished to devise institutions that could somehow constrain the sinfulness of individuals and institutions.

Some people, perhaps willfully, confuse conservatism and Christianity believing they are synonymous. While conservatism is not predicated on religious tenets, it does share “Christianity's tragic view of the natural human condition, described theologically in terms of the fall from grace and original sin...conservatives and Christians see human nature (although not social mores and conventions) as essentially unchanged and unchangeable throughout the ages.”

Because of this distrustful disposition towards the nature of man conservatives place little faith in the savior of ‘big government’. The recognition that “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely” steers conservatives away from a strong central authority and its resulting infringements on the rights of the individual.


According to the ‘New Webster's Dictionary and Thesaurus’:
"Liberalism is critical of institutions, whether political or religious, which tend to restrict individual liberty and places its faith in man's goodness and rationality. This has often expressed itself in demands for freedom of expression, equality of opportunity and universal education."

Liberalism “holds it as certain, that there is no evil except that which results from the political institutions which we have inherited from past ages, and that the supreme good consists in the overthrow of these institutions.”

And thus the paradox of modern liberalism: “Our Marxist/socialist-influenced neo-liberals illiberally preach big government and planned markets. Having abandoned the historical liberal principle of opposition to state interference in the affairs of individuals, neo-liberals now affirm a new political orthodoxy of protecting the weak and oppressed (as defined by neo-liberals) against the supposed evils of private interest through mechanisms of top-down state intervention, favoring collective remedies over individual.”

Indeed modern liberalism has disavowed the philosophy of innate goodness – no longer trusting man to do the right thing, he must be shepherded instead. Conservative pundit P.J. O'Rourke notes: “In fact, charity is an axiom of conservatism. Charity is one of the great responsibilities of freedom. But, in order for us to be responsible-and therefore free - that responsibility must be personal. There is no virtue in compulsory government charity, and there is no virtue in advocating it. A politician who portrays himself as 'caring' and 'sensitive' because he wants to expand the government's charitable programs is merely saying that he's willing to try to do good with other people's money. Well, who isn't?”
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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-18-2005, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blownragtop
I’ve long believed that the basic ideological differences between people can be disseminated into two distinct schools of thought on the essence of man. Either you believe in the fundamental concept of man as intrinsically flawed and imperfect; or you believe in the innate goodness of man. Typically these two dichotomous ideas manifest themselves today as Conservative and (neo)Liberal.

Conservatives believe that man is sinful and that governments exist to restrain men. “But what is government itself but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government of men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.” (James Madison, Federalist 51, 1787-88.)

Indeed our Constitution is testimony to the ‘conservative’ nature of our fore-fathers who having experienced tyranny wished to devise institutions that could somehow constrain the sinfulness of individuals and institutions.

Some people, perhaps willfully, confuse conservatism and Christianity believing they are synonymous. While conservatism is not predicated on religious tenets, it does share “Christianity's tragic view of the natural human condition, described theologically in terms of the fall from grace and original sin...conservatives and Christians see human nature (although not social mores and conventions) as essentially unchanged and unchangeable throughout the ages.”

Because of this distrustful disposition towards the nature of man conservatives place little faith in the savior of ‘big government’. The recognition that “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely” steers conservatives away from a strong central authority and its resulting infringements on the rights of the individual.


According to the ‘New Webster's Dictionary and Thesaurus’:
"Liberalism is critical of institutions, whether political or religious, which tend to restrict individual liberty and places its faith in man's goodness and rationality. This has often expressed itself in demands for freedom of expression, equality of opportunity and universal education."

Liberalism “holds it as certain, that there is no evil except that which results from the political institutions which we have inherited from past ages, and that the supreme good consists in the overthrow of these institutions.”

And thus the paradox of modern liberalism: “Our Marxist/socialist-influenced neo-liberals illiberally preach big government and planned markets. Having abandoned the historical liberal principle of opposition to state interference in the affairs of individuals, neo-liberals now affirm a new political orthodoxy of protecting the weak and oppressed (as defined by neo-liberals) against the supposed evils of private interest through mechanisms of top-down state intervention, favoring collective remedies over individual.”

Indeed modern liberalism has disavowed the philosophy of innate goodness – no longer trusting man to do the right thing, he must be shepherded instead. Conservative pundit P.J. O'Rourke notes: “In fact, charity is an axiom of conservatism. Charity is one of the great responsibilities of freedom. But, in order for us to be responsible-and therefore free - that responsibility must be personal. There is no virtue in compulsory government charity, and there is no virtue in advocating it. A politician who portrays himself as 'caring' and 'sensitive' because he wants to expand the government's charitable programs is merely saying that he's willing to try to do good with other people's money. Well, who isn't?”
Thats an intelligent post which allows for both sides of an argument. Not allowed on dfwstangs. You must only post tired paradoxes etc, then argue your own point fruitlessly until the thread dies and no one's political affiliations are changed.

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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-18-2005, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blownragtop
A politician who portrays himself as 'caring' and 'sensitive' because he wants to expand the government's charitable programs is merely saying that he's willing to try to do good with other people's money. Well, who isn't?”
Lol, I like that.
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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-19-2005, 06:26 AM
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[QUOTE=90 Notch]

You support abortion (only if the child will not have the proper upbringing, then again there is adoption) and are for the death penalty(the killing of guilty life).

You think the government is corrupt,( it is to an extent, but tell me what country isnt).

You think Libby lying to a grand jury/under oath (committing a felony) is bad but a sitting President lying to a grand jury/under oath (committing a felony) is ok because he comes from your party.( i dont like liars period)

You think Bush lied about WMD even though every major Democrat came out and publicly agreed that the intelligence they saw showed clear evidence that there were WMD in Iraq.(Through my military sources there was WMD's, but for reasons unknown they chose not to make it public, my opinion is that if they did then the public demand would be to pull out).
QUOTE]

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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-19-2005, 05:14 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blownragtop
I’ve long believed that the basic ideological differences between people can be disseminated into two distinct schools of thought on the essence of man. Either you believe in the fundamental concept of man as intrinsically flawed and imperfect; or you believe in the innate goodness of man. Typically these two dichotomous ideas manifest themselves today as Conservative and (neo)Liberal.

Conservatives believe that man is sinful and that governments exist to restrain men. “But what is government itself but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government of men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.” (James Madison, Federalist 51, 1787-88.)

Indeed our Constitution is testimony to the ‘conservative’ nature of our fore-fathers who having experienced tyranny wished to devise institutions that could somehow constrain the sinfulness of individuals and institutions.

Some people, perhaps willfully, confuse conservatism and Christianity believing they are synonymous. While conservatism is not predicated on religious tenets, it does share “Christianity's tragic view of the natural human condition, described theologically in terms of the fall from grace and original sin...conservatives and Christians see human nature (although not social mores and conventions) as essentially unchanged and unchangeable throughout the ages.”

Because of this distrustful disposition towards the nature of man conservatives place little faith in the savior of ‘big government’. The recognition that “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely” steers conservatives away from a strong central authority and its resulting infringements on the rights of the individual.


According to the ‘New Webster's Dictionary and Thesaurus’:
"Liberalism is critical of institutions, whether political or religious, which tend to restrict individual liberty and places its faith in man's goodness and rationality. This has often expressed itself in demands for freedom of expression, equality of opportunity and universal education."

Liberalism “holds it as certain, that there is no evil except that which results from the political institutions which we have inherited from past ages, and that the supreme good consists in the overthrow of these institutions.”

And thus the paradox of modern liberalism: “Our Marxist/socialist-influenced neo-liberals illiberally preach big government and planned markets. Having abandoned the historical liberal principle of opposition to state interference in the affairs of individuals, neo-liberals now affirm a new political orthodoxy of protecting the weak and oppressed (as defined by neo-liberals) against the supposed evils of private interest through mechanisms of top-down state intervention, favoring collective remedies over individual.”

Indeed modern liberalism has disavowed the philosophy of innate goodness – no longer trusting man to do the right thing, he must be shepherded instead. Conservative pundit P.J. O'Rourke notes: “In fact, charity is an axiom of conservatism. Charity is one of the great responsibilities of freedom. But, in order for us to be responsible-and therefore free - that responsibility must be personal. There is no virtue in compulsory government charity, and there is no virtue in advocating it. A politician who portrays himself as 'caring' and 'sensitive' because he wants to expand the government's charitable programs is merely saying that he's willing to try to do good with other people's money. Well, who isn't?”
Damn, someone posted a pretty serious answer.

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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-19-2005, 05:16 PM Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=636ryder]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90 Notch

You support abortion (only if the child will not have the proper upbringing, then again there is adoption) and are for the death penalty(the killing of guilty life).

You think the government is corrupt,( it is to an extent, but tell me what country isnt).

You think Libby lying to a grand jury/under oath (committing a felony) is bad but a sitting President lying to a grand jury/under oath (committing a felony) is ok because he comes from your party.( i dont like liars period)

You think Bush lied about WMD even though every major Democrat came out and publicly agreed that the intelligence they saw showed clear evidence that there were WMD in Iraq.(Through my military sources there was WMD's, but for reasons unknown they chose not to make it public, my opinion is that if they did then the public demand would be to pull out).
QUOTE]
Any chance you want to answer the question instead of attacking some of my points? Come on, you can do better than the typical liberal. I know you can!

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If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
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I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-19-2005, 05:18 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by exlude
Lol, I like that.
Kinda sucks after you have gone on record saying you don't know about liberals, huh?

Keep your subscription, you might learn about it finally.

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If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
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I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-19-2005, 05:34 PM
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[QUOTE=90 Notch]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 636ryder

Any chance you want to answer the question instead of attacking some of my points? Come on, you can do better than the typical liberal. I know you can!

Hmm??? I wasn't attacking, i was stating where i stood. If where i stand make me a liberal, then thats news to me.

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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-20-2005, 01:30 PM
 
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"some" liberals I know strongly compare us to other nations in the way we "should" do things, whereas conservatives all agree our nation is the best on earth.

I respect both sides in the sense of our system would not work without variety in the parties, but other than that.... PHOOEY!!!
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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-20-2005, 11:44 PM Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=636ryder]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 90 Notch


Hmm??? I wasn't attacking, i was stating where i stood. If where i stand make me a liberal, then thats news to me.
Yeah, attacking was too strong. I was hoping for some of your definitions of a liberal, not just agreeing or disagreeing with mine.

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“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
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I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
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post #16 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-20-2005, 11:46 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by turbostangguy
"some" liberals I know strongly compare us to other nations in the way we "should" do things, whereas conservatives all agree our nation is the best on earth.
This is a good one.

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“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
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post #17 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-21-2005, 01:33 AM
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[QUOTE=90 Notch]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 636ryder

Yeah, attacking was too strong. I was hoping for some of your definitions of a liberal, not just agreeing or disagreeing with mine.
Well ive never really heard anyone define one, so i figured i'd throw my points of view in and see where i stand.

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post #18 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-21-2005, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 90 Notch
Kinda sucks after you have gone on record saying you don't know about liberals, huh?

Keep your subscription, you might learn about it finally.
I don't see how what I quoted has anything to do with what I have said...?

Just to clarify: I know what the text-book definition liberal is and what their agenda/message is.

When I posted in that thread you keep referencing, way back when, I was saying I don't see a common agenda among the neo-liberals of today. It seems to be fringe elements binding together, not idealogically, but because they are fringe elements -- that defines the neo-liberal. Thus the, "I don't understand the message", as there doesn't seem to be a single, unifying one.
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post #19 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-21-2005, 12:40 PM
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post #20 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-22-2005, 08:40 AM
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I think a "liberal" is a sniveling, whining, apologetic pussy that sits here and plays your game.
Why don't you ask what a moderate conservative is, if you think it's possible to be one and still not agree with you.
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post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-22-2005, 11:39 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by black01gt
I think a "liberal" is a sniveling, whining, apologetic pussy that sits here and plays your game.
Why don't you ask what a moderate conservative is, if you think it's possible to be one and still not agree with you.
A liberal is also very hostile.

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“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
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post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-23-2005, 10:45 AM
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Trying to define a "liberal" (or a conservative for that matter) is somewhat slippery. It's kind of like the definition of porn; you know it when you see it.

Also, there are many moderate "liberals" and moderate "conservatives" that share some common ground/viewpoints; these are hard to clearly delineate. However, a "bleeding" liberal or a "staunch" conservative is, I think, a little easier to define.

I would define a bleeding liberal as someone that does not embrace "traditional" views of government, military, and religion. Many seem to be anti-war, for government growth (more programs, control, spending), and somewhat hostile toward religion and religious people. And add in a sort of strong "we know what's best for you" attitude.

So in sort I guess i'd say a person with a kind of socialist/european world view, and perhaps one that does not think that the US is that great of a country overall.

The "staunch" conservative probably has a military backgound or has military in his family, has a strong religious affiliation, believes in less government, flys the flag on all of the approriate holidays, is probably pro-war, has a strong sense of country and duty, and believes that the american way is the right way and that europeans are pussies The staunch conservative will also probably have a strong attitude of "we know what's right for the country".

The "bleeding" liberals and the "staunch" conservatives don't care much for each other but the conversations and rhetoric between the groups does make for some good entertainment.

Ah well.... ya'll have fun with the above and keep the thread on an intelligent level
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post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-23-2005, 05:54 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeb
Trying to define a "liberal" (or a conservative for that matter) is somewhat slippery. It's kind of like the definition of porn; you know it when you see it.

Also, there are many moderate "liberals" and moderate "conservatives" that share some common ground/viewpoints; these are hard to clearly delineate. However, a "bleeding" liberal or a "staunch" conservative is, I think, a little easier to define.

I would define a bleeding liberal as someone that does not embrace "traditional" views of government, military, and religion. Many seem to be anti-war, for government growth (more programs, control, spending), and somewhat hostile toward religion and religious people. And add in a sort of strong "we know what's best for you" attitude.

So in sort I guess i'd say a person with a kind of socialist/european world view, and perhaps one that does not think that the US is that great of a country overall.

The "staunch" conservative probably has a military backgound or has military in his family, has a strong religious affiliation, believes in less government, flys the flag on all of the approriate holidays, is probably pro-war, has a strong sense of country and duty, and believes that the american way is the right way and that europeans are pussies The staunch conservative will also probably have a strong attitude of "we know what's right for the country".

The "bleeding" liberals and the "staunch" conservatives don't care much for each other but the conversations and rhetoric between the groups does make for some good entertainment.

Ah well.... ya'll have fun with the above and keep the thread on an intelligent level
Great post!

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post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-23-2005, 06:04 PM
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Funny how of liberalism has changed over the years.

I consider the Bush administration right-wing liberals. Free enterprise and equal opportunity (but not equal reward).
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post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-23-2005, 11:01 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Funny how of liberalism has changed over the years.

I consider the Bush administration right-wing liberals. Free enterprise and equal opportunity (but not equal reward).
Any chance you could be more specific?

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I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
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post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-24-2005, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 90 Notch
Any chance you could be more specific?


Freedom of expression, free enterprise and equal opportunity are foundations are of liberalism (as it existed).

The neo-liberals of today have added one other thing, which has changed the definition of liberalism to more of a socialism, equal reward.

Many left of the left really don't care how hard you tried given your equal opportunity, they want you to get equal reward.

The early "liberals" (Anders Chydenius, Adam Smith for example) were concerned with natural liberties. It is also the basis of laissez-faire and the free market economy.

People act out of self-interest and allowing them to do so will produce the best results. In fact a part of liberalism, economic liberalism is a general tenet of the Republican party.

The democrats are more in tune with social market economics. A system that tries to provide for economic growth, low unemployment, etc through public welfare and other services provided by the government. Unfortunately, many democrats have decided public welfare should be used more often in order to equal out the rewards.

The reason alot of Democrats consider Clinton the "best Republican president" was because his policies were more geared towards economic liberalism instead of social market economics. Gore was there to reign Clinton in from time to time so the far left tolerated Clinton's economic policies.

Last edited by 01WhiteCobra; 11-24-2005 at 10:02 AM.
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post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-28-2005, 10:34 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Freedom of expression, free enterprise and equal opportunity are foundations are of liberalism (as it existed).

The neo-liberals of today have added one other thing, which has changed the definition of liberalism to more of a socialism, equal reward.

Many left of the left really don't care how hard you tried given your equal opportunity, they want you to get equal reward.

The early "liberals" (Anders Chydenius, Adam Smith for example) were concerned with natural liberties. It is also the basis of laissez-faire and the free market economy.

People act out of self-interest and allowing them to do so will produce the best results. In fact a part of liberalism, economic liberalism is a general tenet of the Republican party.

The democrats are more in tune with social market economics. A system that tries to provide for economic growth, low unemployment, etc through public welfare and other services provided by the government. Unfortunately, many democrats have decided public welfare should be used more often in order to equal out the rewards.

The reason alot of Democrats consider Clinton the "best Republican president" was because his policies were more geared towards economic liberalism instead of social market economics. Gore was there to reign Clinton in from time to time so the far left tolerated Clinton's economic policies.
I think that is the most positive definition of a liberal I have ever seen.

BTW, what Democrats are upset at Clinton? I have never heard one certified Democrat ever speak poorly of him. Not all liked him to the point of thinking he was a great Democrat, but they sure liked that he kept the office for 8 years and without him, it may have been 7 elections in a row for Republicans instead of 5 of 7.

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If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
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I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
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post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-28-2005, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 90 Notch
I think that is the most positive definition of a liberal I have ever seen.

BTW, what Democrats are upset at Clinton? I have never heard one certified Democrat ever speak poorly of him. Not all liked him to the point of thinking he was a great Democrat, but they sure liked that he kept the office for 8 years and without him, it may have been 7 elections in a row for Republicans instead of 5 of 7.
Note: this was the kinder, gentler 01WC.

I still have no use for the welfare state unless it is tied to edumacation, job training or cleaning the roadsides to get your food stamps.
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post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-28-2005, 02:58 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Note: this was the kinder, gentler 01WC.

I still have no use for the welfare state unless it is tied to edumacation, job training or cleaning the roadsides to get your food stamps.
What about the Clinton question?

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If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
Robert A. Heinlein

I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
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post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-28-2005, 03:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 90 Notch
What about the Clinton question?
You'd be suprised at how many of the leftist of the left didn't like Clinton. Clinton was more centered than "left" which helped him pull alot of the middle into the election. Having Enviro-Gore as his stablemate helped seal the deal with the lefties.
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post #31 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-28-2005, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Pro Trash
I don't approve abortion but I don't approve of telling others what is right or wrong based off of a moral or religious driven conviction. We are supposed to have a seperation of church and state. I am a Christian but don't feel the need to make you one or judge you, God will do that in the end. Same as flag burning I hate the idea but recognize it is communist to tell someone they don't have that right no matter how fucked up they are.

I think chunks of our government are somewhat corrupt be it dems or reps party is not an issue. I hate taxes but don't want massive tax breaks that will later be a catalyst for even higher taxes when the government wants to fund some stupid shit like No Child left Behind.

I think what Libby lied about was no different than Clintons lies. I do feel that a lie over a blow job versus popping the cover on an agent that risked her life for our nation is a little different in what I view a pervert versus treason.


WMD I think Bush went off what was offered him and I also feel he won't just fucking say yeah we fucked up initially on intelligence but we are here and that is just how it is. Cheney is a fucking lair in that he has been shown on TV stating I didn't say that Iraq had the ability to make WMD then a a clip shows in an interview where he said just that before the Iraq invasion.

I think you guys scream liberal at anyone who even remotely has a democratic tendecy. I am liberal in that I support change,have political and social views favoring reform and progress, I have broad political stance. If you think a liberal is a tree hugging, radical left winger, hater of Bush then you need to grab a dictionary. I don't like T. Kennedy he is a hard core left wing nut job not a liberal as he claims.
My friend, you are neither a liberal nor a conservative. You, like most of us, are a moderate.

My views are similar:

I could give two $hits about abortion.

I care even less about the death penalty.

Not having any WMD's did not in ANY WAY make Saddam a "Better Person"

If a politician claims he has never lied....Then he/she is lying

I am all for suffrage, but issue voters should have this privelage revoked

I think if you identify Liberal or Conservative, then you are closed minded

On the same note, both political parties have their fair share of "Idealogical Idiots"

Favoring homosexual marriage does not make you "progressive or a reformist"

Change for the sake of "Change" is a idiotic reason for change

"I have taken more out of alcohol than it has taken out of me."

"If not, by age 20, you are a liberal, then you have no heart. If not, by age 30, you are a conservative, then you have no brain.
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post #32 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-29-2005, 11:24 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
You'd be suprised at how many of the leftist of the left didn't like Clinton. Clinton was more centered than "left" which helped him pull alot of the middle into the election. Having Enviro-Gore as his stablemate helped seal the deal with the lefties.
I am surprised there are some, so I would definitely be surprised if there are as many as you say there are, no doubt.

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America

If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
Robert A. Heinlein

I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
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post #33 of 33 (permalink) Old 11-29-2005, 11:27 AM Thread Starter
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I sure would like to hear from someone who calls themself a liberal to come and say what they think a liberal is. I would also like to hear from a few more people who dislike the word to come and speak up. It sure would give more credibility to you for telling us what a liberal is in your opinion if you have been one to dislike the word/label so much.

One
Big
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Mistake
America

If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
Robert A. Heinlein

I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
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