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post #1 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-25-2005, 09:50 AM Thread Starter
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Rick Perry's new tax plan...

I'm basically posting this without comment for the moment. I need to research it a bit more.


http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory...lature/3237409


Quote:

Perry's plan helps rich at others' expense
A Chronicle analysis shows wealthy would save, but renters would pay more
By R.G. RATCLIFFE
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle Austin Bureau

RESOURCES
• Complete coverage: See more stories and resources on the 79th Texas Legislature from the Houston Chronicle.
AUSTIN - Gov. Rick Perry's plan for property tax relief would provide a windfall for the wealthiest families in Texas, but for lower-income renters the governor's plan would be a financial drain on the family budget, a Houston Chronicle analysis showed.

And after more than a year of legislative wrangling over property tax relief, the tax savings for the median family in Texas would amount to about $150 a year under Perry's plan — a savings of about $12.75 a month.


The real winner of the school property tax cuts would be business, which pays about 54 percent of all the school property taxes in Texas.

The debate through one special session, and into a second, and a regular legislative session has stalled on how to expand the state franchise tax to include business services not now covered by the tax.

House and Senate plans that died during the regular session had sales tax levies similar to the governor's, hitting the state's poor the hardest for the benefit of the wealthy.

The official Legislative Budget Board analysis of a tax plan the House Ways and Means Committee is taking up today says the plan would increase the overall tax burden for all but the wealthiest Texans. Families with an annual income of more than $100,000 collectively would receive a $351 million-a-year tax cut, while everyone else's taxes would go up a collective $935 million.

Perry's plan is far less complex than that being considered by the House.

An official analysis will not be done unless a legislator files Perry's plan as a bill. So far no one has.

Increasing sales taxes
The Chronicle analysis, based on state and federal statistical reports on family income and tax liability, found Perry's $7 billion plan for cutting school property taxes is paid for with a $5 billion hit on consumers through increased sales tax rates, expanding the sales tax to include motor vehicle repairs and voluntary cosmetic surgery and by raising tobacco taxes.

Perry spokesman Robert Black said the governor believes his plan will give tax relief to all income groups.

"This is a record property tax reduction of $7 billion, and we believe that is something most Texans want," Black said.

He said Perry tried to make his plan more equitable for low-income homeowners by increasing the homestead exemption by an additional $7,500.

Black said Democrats had been pushing for an increase in the homestead exemption because it is of greater benefit to low-income homeowners than upper-income families.

In the Chronicle analysis of Perry's plan, a family of four that rents a home out of an income of about $35,000 a year would end up paying about $72 a year more in state taxes.

But a family of four with an income of about $150,000 a year and owns a home valued at $300,000 would receive a state tax cut of about $567 a year.

Both scenarios include one major car repair costing $300 in labor.

They do not include Perry's proposal to raise cigarette taxes by $1 a pack, a proposal that is known to financially impact poorest Texans the hardest.

About 37 percent of the families in Texas earn less than $35,000 a year, according to the U.S. census, while just 5 percent earn $150,000 a year or more. About half the families in Houston are renters.

The median family income is $45,861. Their savings, according to the Chronicle analysis, would be about $153 a year.

The core political debate over property taxes and sales taxes comes down to what is fair.

Republicans argue that the wealthy pay the most taxes and so deserve the biggest breaks. Democrats argue that sales taxes impact the poor the hardest because they pay a larger percentage of their income in taxes when they can least afford it.

There is truth to both arguments.

Statistics from the state comptroller's office show the wealthiest Texas families, with the top 10 percent income, pay a quarter of all school property taxes raised from homeowners. The tax represents just 2.3 percent of their family income.

When it comes to sales taxes, families earning less than $30,000 a year pay about 12 percent of the taxes collected while the state's wealthiest families pay 19 percent of the taxes.

The sales tax impact on family income is dramatically different, though.

The tax takes 1.6 percent of the income of the wealthiest families, but 4 percent to 10 percent of the annual income of the poorest families.

Regressive taxes
Dick Lavine of the Center for Public Policy Priorities, a group that advocates for the poor, said the underlying problem is both the sales tax and the property tax are regressive, hitting the poor the hardest by eating a larger share of their income. He said the property tax is only slightly less regressive than the sales tax.

"When you raise a regressive tax to cut a less regressive tax there is no way you're not going to shift the burden to the poor," Lavine said.

Lavine said Perry's proposal to expand the sales tax to cosmetic surgery probably is not regressive because few poor people get Botox injections.

He said expanding the sales tax to automobile repair could be a hard hit on low-income families who tend to keep cars for a long time and repair them to keep them running.

"If you're leasing a BMW and turning it in every three years, you probably never see a repair shop," Lavine said.

'Only people pay taxes'
Byron Schlomach, chief economist for the business-oriented Texas Public Policy Foundation, said focusing on the savings by individuals is valid but may not catch a long-term picture.

"The change you would have to make would have to be huge to have an impact on people's (individual) finances," he said.

But he noted that the comptroller's fiscal analysis of taxes finds that even business taxes are eventually paid by individuals because they are passed through to consumers.

"People pay taxes, and only people pay taxes," he said.

Schlomach said a renter may not receive a direct rental rate cut but the property tax cut received by the owner may reduce a future rate increase.

Schlomach said property tax cuts also are important for prompting business investment that ultimately may have an impact on individuals in the form of new or retained jobs.

"If you're a welder, you may not realize you would have lost your job if this had not happened," Schlomach said. "Property tax decreases do a lot to stimulate investment."

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post #2 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-25-2005, 09:52 AM Thread Starter
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A comparison chart based on Perry's plan..

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post #3 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-25-2005, 10:18 AM
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The education system doesn't need more money. More money isn't the answer. Money has been proposed as the answer many times. What was the lotto going to fix and help fund? Anyone? Anyone?

Until government starts running like a business with missions, goals and competition, there will always be problems. There is too much waste and fraud in government. Why does the Dallas superindendent make over $1million? Is there no superindendent available that would take the job for $250K a year?

Why is every new school built have to waste money building structures with unique architecture, when every other company found out long ago that making the same buildings with the same ulitarian functions is more cost effective, such as McDonalds, Albertsons, Discount Tires, Jiffy Lube, Subway?

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post #4 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-25-2005, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
He said expanding the sales tax to automobile repair could be a hard hit on low-income families who tend to keep cars for a long time and repair them to keep them running.

"If you're leasing a BMW and turning it in every three years, you probably never see a repair shop," Lavine said.
Wonder if Mr Lavine understands that in Texas that on car lease you pay sales tax on the entire value of the car, not just a down payment like some states.

So... when Mr. "Keep the car for 10 years" gets taxed on a car repair at 20.85 a year, Mr. "Lease a BMW Every 3 Years) is probably paying about $600 a year in sales tax payments (capitalized over the 3 year period).

TDD, as far as running a government like a business, there are some areas in which you could do this. But, if government was run like a business, are you going to whip out your credit card for $2-3K when you call 911 to tell them your house is burning down?

The only way government could or would run like a business is if people realized how much it costs to actually provide services. For example, education.

I pay roughly $8.8K a year in property tax. About 5.8K of that is to PISD.

I have one daughter in PISD currently. My neighbors across the street pay about 4.5K in tax to PISD. They have no children in school. My in-laws pay about 12K a year to HISD in tax. They have no children in school.

A friend of mine has 5 kids in PISD. They pay about 4K in property tax to PISD.

A year and a few months from now, I'll have two kids in PISD. Without any changes, I go from paying 5.8K in taxes for educating one child to paying 5.8K for educating two children.

If they both went to private school, I'd be paying about 21K a year in school.

I'm all for running government like a business, profit and loss. As long as everyone is on board and willing to pay the going rate.

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post #5 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-25-2005, 10:54 AM
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I am not talking about charging everyone the same or having user fees. I am talking about getting some productivity and some cost savings in to government. Everyone paying taxes to fund schools, benefits everyone, even people without kids, if the kids are being properly educated, which they aren't.

The young kids that come to work in temporary positions at the Nokia plant at Alliance Gate can't follow directions. They can't even make sure they put a manual in every box, even though it is the only thing they have to do on the line. They don't understand why they are making $8/hr.
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post #6 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-25-2005, 10:59 AM
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Seems to me that the bottom line is that people and businesses only have so much money. When costs go up to a person or business that money has to come out of what is available, and in many cases this will mean that expenses will have to be reduced somewhere to help even the budget. It's a real simple concept.

So, a tax increase will lead to decreased spending by many persons and businesses, including possibly some layoffs. The subsequent reduction in consumption of course results in less sales tax and profits, leading to more expense cuts and possibly more layoffs. The government will see less tax money.

When people and businesses have MORE money then they tend to spend more (or at least they aren't nesessarily looking to cut spending), stimulating the economy.

I see that they want to shift the burden away from property taxes. If the result is that i'll pay the same or more in other taxes anyway i'd just as soon keep the propery tax; it's much easier to account for at tax time.
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post #7 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-25-2005, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasDevilDog
I am not talking about charging everyone the same or having user fees. I am talking about getting some productivity and some cost savings in to government. Everyone paying taxes to fund schools, benefits everyone, even people without kids, if the kids are being properly educated, which they aren't.

The young kids that come to work in temporary positions at the Nokia plant at Alliance Gate can't follow directions. They can't even make sure they put a manual in every box, even though it is the only thing they have to do on the line. They don't understand why they are making $8/hr.
I find it funny (especially from people without children) to tell me my children are not being educated properly. Because... well... it's bullshit.

Parents that think they send their children off to school and think that little Johnny and little Mary will come back edumacted at 3:30pm are fooling themselves.

There is plenty of education out there for families that want to take advantage of it. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

And actually, I'm glad. It will make it much easier for my girls to get ahead in life.

You haven't addressed the issue TDD. Possibly, just possibly, you are getting what you paid for.

You don't go to the dealership and try to convince a salesman that the 25K Mustang is a good deal for 10K for the dealership.

Compare what it costs to educate a child in public schools to what it costs to educate a child in private school. Parents are getting just what they pay for.

And if you are not supplementing this with your own education at home you are doing your child a disservice as well as Texas.

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post #8 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-25-2005, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
I find it funny (especially from people without children) to tell me my children are not being educated properly. Because... well... it's bullshit.

Parents that think they send their children off to school and think that little Johnny and little Mary will come back edumacted at 3:30pm are fooling themselves.

There is plenty of education out there for families that want to take advantage of it. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.

And actually, I'm glad. It will make it much easier for my girls to get ahead in life.

You haven't addressed the issue TDD. Possibly, just possibly, you are getting what you paid for.

You don't go to the dealership and try to convince a salesman that the 25K Mustang is a good deal for 10K for the dealership.

Compare what it costs to educate a child in public schools to what it costs to educate a child in private school. Parents are getting just what they pay for.

And if you are not supplementing this with your own education at home you are doing your child a disservice as well as Texas.
It is funny when some people think I was talking about their child when I wasn't.
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post #9 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-25-2005, 02:13 PM
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I knew that this would roll over into a discussion about public schools, and who gets what quality of education from. While it is true that a good, if not great, education is obtainable in public schools, I believe that OVER ALL, it is a huge money-pit that borders on failure. In 1980, there were 3 teachers to every administrator. In 2005, it is a 1:1 ratio. Before my home is fire-bombed, I'd like to add that both my girls have had, and are getting fantastic educations in a public school system.
On a side-not, I found some articles about a cousin that was murdered back in 1968, and on the same pages as his story, were editorials discussing a voucher plan...in 1968! I find that very interesting in itself.

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post #10 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-25-2005, 02:26 PM Thread Starter
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Can you all remember the good ole days?

Back when Republicans stood for lower spending and lower taxes.

Man I wish those days would come back. It certainly looks like Rick Perry has forgotten what being a Republican is supposed to be about.

Needless to say, I won't be voting for him. The State party had better wise up and nominate Strahorn, otherwise I'm voting Democrat.

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post #11 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-25-2005, 04:24 PM
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I certainly wouldn't vote Dem unless they had a better idea. They have thrown out some pipe dreams before, that never came to fruition. GW has been a spending MoFo since he's been in office, and I'm more than a little dissapointed in his discretionary spending. As far as I'm concerned, ALL politicians are a necessary evil. We know Rick Perry followed in GW's footsteps, and they both spend like it's not their money...SHIT!It's NOT their money!

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post #12 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-25-2005, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasDevilDog
It is funny when some people think I was talking about their child when I wasn't.
No, you were making a general comment about public education, when, well you don't even have a child in it.

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post #13 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-25-2005, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Vertnut
I knew that this would roll over into a discussion about public schools, and who gets what quality of education from. While it is true that a good, if not great, education is obtainable in public schools, I believe that OVER ALL, it is a huge money-pit that borders on failure. In 1980, there were 3 teachers to every administrator. In 2005, it is a 1:1 ratio. Before my home is fire-bombed, I'd like to add that both my girls have had, and are getting fantastic educations in a public school system.
On a side-not, I found some articles about a cousin that was murdered back in 1968, and on the same pages as his story, were editorials discussing a voucher plan...in 1968! I find that very interesting in itself.
Vernut, I fully agree with you.

I'm still waiting for a state rep that will have the "nuts" or "vagina" to tell the school systems it's time to consolidate operations. Lets have one set of admins for two school districts serving a total of 5K kids. There are plenty of these types of school districts across Texas.

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post #14 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-25-2005, 05:31 PM
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Can you all remember the good ole days?

Back when Republicans stood for lower spending and lower taxes.

Man I wish those days would come back. It certainly looks like Rick Perry has forgotten what being a Republican is supposed to be about.

Needless to say, I won't be voting for him. The State party had better wise up and nominate Strahorn, otherwise I'm voting Democrat.
Sarge, I'm all for lowering taxes. I'm all for efficient government.

Rick Perry is an enigma. But I don't think Stayhorn is the answer either unfortunately.

I'm all for an amendment to the Constitution declaring both the democratic party and the republican party worthless and not worthy of being elected anymore.

Seriously.

Lets go back to popular vote and may the best person win. Too much shit happens in between someone throwing their name out and the primaries and the national election.

For example, in Collin County, the elections are held in March, in the primaries. Whoever wins the Republican primary will win in November.

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post #15 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 12:47 AM
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I have two daughters in public school and IMO they are getting a pretty decent education; we have a good school district. I have the tax assessments to show for it

I think '01 has a point; districts tend to be top heavy with administration. Indeed we hear about schools cutting programs for kids instead of finding ways to operate leaner when tough times come. The education system seems to operate on the "good old boy" system to some degree; they protect their own. There is no incentive or reward to make best use of their funding. Vouchers might encourage better all around performance but I don't think the education people will ever allow them to become widespread.

I think that another issue is the cost of having to deal with state and federal mandates. Schools are tasked with having to deal with and provide a lot of services that i'm not for sure come with any funding (?)

I can't stand Perry, and Strayhorn strikes me as a shrill bitch. I hope some other candidates run.
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post #16 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 08:27 AM Thread Starter
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I can't stand Perry, and Strayhorn strikes me as a shrill bitch. I hope some other candidates run.
Well there always is Kinky Friedman

Seriously, if Perry gets the nomination, I'll be voting for Friedman, unless the Democrats put up a conservative. (which can happen in Texas)

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post #17 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 09:57 AM
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The problem with people who think that the education system doesn't need more money either were not educated in the Texas Public Education system, or WERE educated in the Texas Public Education system . . . specifically Garland (j/k about garland).

In conclusion . . . you're all idiots.

Adiós Mo-Fo's
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post #18 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 11:00 AM
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It's been proven time and again that throwing money at the public school system DOES NOT WORK. There's not even a legitimate argument for that rationale. Please show us where more money helps TEA, or any other public school system. Any new funds just pays for administrators that should have been fired or retired. New funding doesn't go to the teachers as it should, but to BULLSHIT programs, i.e. "IT's OK to have two mommies", or that stupid-assed TAKS test, that the gov't judges all things on, including federal funding. The teachers then spend a huge amount of time trying to get the poor students to pass the FUCKIN' thing, while the truly gifted kids sit idle in the classroom, twiddling their thumbs. Again, my daughters' (2) have done exceptionally well, despite having a dumb-shit for a dad, but my wife and I both stress working at home with them to be sure they are on track. Education still begins in the home, and without that, few students will excell.

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post #19 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 11:30 AM
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In conclusion . . . you're all idiots.
Then please enlighten us, Oh Scholarly One.
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post #20 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 03:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Who Needs 8
The problem with people who think that the education system doesn't need more money either were not educated in the Texas Public Education system, or WERE educated in the Texas Public Education system . . . specifically Garland (j/k about garland).

In conclusion . . . you're all idiots.

Adiós Mo-Fo's
Painting with a broad brush, aren't you. I graduated high school in North Carolina at a DOD funded school.
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post #21 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
If they both went to private school, I'd be paying about 21K a year in school.
What private school charges $10.5K a year?

http://www.dfwprivateschools.com/search/index.php
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post #22 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 03:50 PM
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What private school charges $10.5K a year?

http://www.dfwprivateschools.com/search/index.php
Quite a few, why?

Do I need to do everything for you?

Hell, I'm paying $2400 a year at the moment for 2-day a week pre-school.

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post #23 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 05:47 PM Thread Starter
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I just wish some Republicans would follow through on their promises and rebate tax money to people that want to give private schools a try. If it undermines the public school system, well, F'em. Many of them are doing quite a good job of that to begin. I wonder how many more Wilmer-Hutchins ISDs are out there???

I think one solution may be for the state to set a budget PER CHILD. I read where some districts are spending only 5K per child and doing well, yet others are spending 10K.

I'll go look it up to see if it's true. If it is, then the state should pick a number and tell the ISDs that this is all they get. Let the ISDs figure it out after that.

BTW, IMO, every HS grad should be competent in basic CALCULUS. We need engineers and scientist in the country in a bad way. There are some good Calculus tests out there that should be the standard. You can't "teach to the test" with Calculus. That shit can't be faked.

I wish my school (West Monroe High School) had placed a stronger emphasis on math, but that's ok. I ended up teaching it to myself 13 years later.

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post #24 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 06:07 PM
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I may be off a little, but I think Texas spends about 7K per student annually. With 30+ kids in a classroom, you can do the math (if public school got you that far ). My computer-like brain tells me that it's enough to piss me off. A high school with 5000 kids, is worth 35 MILLION dollars. I think what gets out of whack, are the number of administrators and all the peripherial (sp) bullshit that comes with them. The bigger the district, i.e. Dallas ISD, the more "fat" you have in it. This is one of the FEW common denominators that public schools share with big business, i.e. American Airlines. If they don't change their ways, they will both have the same end result...

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post #25 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 06:14 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vertnut
I may be off a little, but I think Texas spends about 7K per student annually. With 30+ kids in a classroom, you can do the math (if public school got you that far ). My computer-like brain tells me that it's enough to piss me off. A high school with 5000 kids, is worth 35 MILLION dollars. I think what gets out of whack, are the number of administrators and all the peripherial (sp) bullshit that comes with them. The bigger the district, i.e. Dallas ISD, the more "fat" you have in it. This is one of the FEW common denominators that public schools share with big business, i.e. American Airlines. If they don't change their ways, they will both have the same end result...

5000 may be the average, I'm not sure about this. However, I recall hearing that the amount spent can vary widely between the different ISDs....

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post #26 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by 01WhiteCobra
Quite a few, why?

Do I need to do everything for you?

Hell, I'm paying $2400 a year at the moment for 2-day a week pre-school.
Yeah, you do? Which one were you talking bout?
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post #27 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 07:00 PM
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Well, I did a little research, and wished I hadn't. After puking my guts out to get the taste out of my mouth, and cleaning my pants out, here's what I found. Texas' budget for '04 was 40.7 BILLION dollars- 10.4K per student! Examples are- DISD-$8800 (academically unacceptable)
Fairfield ISD-$9220 (academically unacceptable)
Morgan ISD-$7438 (academically unacceptable)

....and the list goes on and on. My kids are about done (junior in college, junior in HS), but I'd take a $7000 voucher in a HEARTBEAT to have my choice of school, be it public or private.

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post #28 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertnut
Well, I did a little research, and wished I hadn't. After puking my guts out to get the taste out of my mouth, and cleaning my pants out, here's what I found. Texas' budget for '04 was 40.7 BILLION dollars- 10.4K per student! Examples are- DISD-$8800 (academically unacceptable)
Fairfield ISD-$9220 (academically unacceptable)
Morgan ISD-$7438 (academically unacceptable)

....and the list goes on and on. My kids are about done (junior in college, junior in HS), but I'd take a $7000 voucher in a HEARTBEAT to have my choice of school, be it public or private.

$10.4K per student, holy cow. That means every kid in Texas could go to the private school that 01WC was looking at. Is that only the state spending portion or does it include college spending? Look at a graph I found showing spending in 1996.


Last edited by TexasDevilDog; 06-26-2005 at 07:13 PM.
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post #29 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 07:14 PM
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They mentioned csts had gone up 28% since 2000, but I didn't have the patience to read any further... I was already pissed.

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post #30 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 07:15 PM
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US Department of Education stats for spending 2003-2004-> http://nces.ed.gov/ccd/pubs/npefs03/findings.asp

It shows that Texas spent $34 Billion or $7,163 per student in 2003.

With a voucher program we could sent kids to most private schools in DFW for less than $7,000 and save a ton of money.
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post #31 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 07:16 PM
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And Sarge- there is a wide range of costs' per student, but there was not ONE low enough to be in the $5000 range you mentioned earlier.

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post #32 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 07:31 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vertnut
And Sarge- there is a wide range of costs' per student, but there was not ONE low enough to be in the $5000 range you mentioned earlier.
That's why I qualified my remarks earlier.

Do you have a link of the numbers you found? I'm totally dumbfounded by what you've reported.

The Government of Texas appears to be grounded in incompetence.

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post #33 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 07:34 PM Thread Starter
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Look what I found. Keep in mind that the survey is from '81 to 2001.

http://www.ecs.org/clearinghouse/54/16/5416.pdf

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post #34 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 07:36 PM
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I did a google search after first checking the TEA site. It took some time to find the #'s, and I wish I had a link. Some of the info was on the form of minutes from TEA meetings, school board meetings, and even Strayhorns' website. She appears to be running using some of these numbers as fodder.

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post #35 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 07:45 PM
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All kidding aside- I love my state. I've been here all of my life- 45 years tomorrow- and it kills me that we have this level of incompetance in our schools. Are thay all bad? NO! With the stress of having all the damn illegals in our system along with rising costs', I feel like the dam is about to burst. Instead of looking for real solutions, we just throw money at it. It's no different than our cars...you keep patching it up, spending more and more. Eventually, you have to overhaul it. It's not rocket science. Just run it like you would a REAL business...taxpayers are the stockholders, and big business has to answer to stockholders.

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post #36 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 07:48 PM
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Then please enlighten us, Oh Scholarly One.

Nope, it'd be way over your head. LOL

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post #38 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 09:01 PM
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Private schools generally have a Headmaster that runs things. He is the school board, total adminstrative staff, etc. Very little overhead is involved. Most private schools don't have retirement packages like the public schools do. It's just a lot more efficient. They DO NOT have a captive audience, like our public schools do. If you don't like your private school, or feel like it is not up to par with others, you move your kid. Public schools don't have that fear. Where are most people going to go? Those that have the money, move out of the district in hopes of findind a good public system. Most do. Those folks that don't have the money, suffer. My kids were/are in a great district, but a lot aren't. It's not fair to the folks that don't have options. They pay the money for a first rate education for their kids, just like I do. That school tax money is theirs. The state just tells them where to spend it.

I noticed Who needs 8 chimed in with some worthless babble...how about a real opinion?

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post #39 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 09:09 PM
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Yeah, you do? Which one were you talking bout?
My oldest daughter was accepted at Hockaday and also a feeder school to Hockaday.

The first tier privates are the only one that truly matter. The second tier will give your child as an acceptable an education as a public school in the burbs.

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post #40 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 09:11 PM
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My oldest daughter was accepted at Hockaday and also a feeder school to Hockaday.

The first tier privates are the only one that truly matter. The second tier will give your child as an acceptable an education as a public school in the burbs.
If the private schools are just as good as the public, but they are cheaper, then we should close the public ones. The public schools are a waste of money if they can't do a better job with more money.
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post #41 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 09:22 PM
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That would be like closing down the IRS. Great idea, but won't happen. Too many folks sucking on that tax titty. But, competition wouldn't hurt. The other side of this that we have not discussed, concerns disciplinary issues, and teachers not having control of the classrooms. That won't happen in a private school. They don't have time for it, and expel their problems. With well-behaved students, you can cover a lot more ground as a teacher.

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post #42 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertnut
I may be off a little, but I think Texas spends about 7K per student annually. With 30+ kids in a classroom, you can do the math (if public school got you that far ). My computer-like brain tells me that it's enough to piss me off. A high school with 5000 kids, is worth 35 MILLION dollars. I think what gets out of whack, are the number of administrators and all the peripherial (sp) bullshit that comes with them. The bigger the district, i.e. Dallas ISD, the more "fat" you have in it. This is one of the FEW common denominators that public schools share with big business, i.e. American Airlines. If they don't change their ways, they will both have the same end result...
Plano, last year was $5,611 per student.

Instructional and Pupil services was 84.2%
Maintenance and Operations was 10.8%
General Administration was 5.0%

Student/teacher ratio was 19.8.

Nearly 50% of the professional staff was Master's degree level or above.

Teachers averaged 10 years experience.

Total enrollment 52,180, 65 schools.

Before you start comparing figures with private schools, you need to also consider indebtness. Private schools get to pick and choose who attends and can cut off the spigot at any point. Public schools cannot. They MUST provide an education to everyone.

They also must follow state guidelines and federal guidelines as far as teacher/pupil ratios, etc. They have no choice BUT to build new schools when the guidelines say one is too full.

For example, in my little city served by PISD, they constructed a new elementary school in 2002. By 2004, because of the growth, the were required to build another elementary school about 1 mile from the existing one (about 8MM in construction). They also added a Middle school in the 2 1/2 years I've been here (at a cost of 10MM). Total population at this point: 12,500. When I moved here 2 1/2 years ago, total population 5,000.

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post #43 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertnut
That would be like closing down the IRS. Great idea, but won't happen. Too many folks sucking on that tax titty. But, competition wouldn't hurt. The other side of this that we have not discussed, concerns disciplinary issues, and teachers not having control of the classrooms. That won't happen in a private school. They don't have time for it, and expel their problems. With well-behaved students, you can cover a lot more ground as a teacher.
That is why vouchers would work. You send your kid to school and if they are a cut up and goof off, the school tell them to go else where. But that school might have the best athlectics program that your kid wants, so straighten up or miss out.

Speaking of vouchers, schools could be tailored to the kids. If your kid is in to music or arts they could go to a school that specializes in arts and not athletics.
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post #44 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 09:29 PM
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If the private schools are just as good as the public, but they are cheaper, then we should close the public ones. The public schools are a waste of money if they can't do a better job with more money.
Public schools are paid through your taxes. If my daughters went to private school I would still be paying PISD close to 6K.

There is not enough room in the private schools in Texas to take the influx of students that would occur if PISD decided to shutter even 10 of their 65 schools.

Private schools aren't doing any better a job with the money. If they got to pick and choose who attended, public schools could be much more efficient.

Comparing the two are apples and oranges really because private schools have much more latitude in who attends, how many attend, when enrollment is closed and what their curriculum is.

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post #45 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 09:29 PM
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Another interesting fact I saw, was that money per student had NOTHING to do with the success of the district. In fact, some of the costlier (per student) disticts had a higher failure rate!

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post #46 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 09:32 PM
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A note- I appreciate the folks in this thread that make good points, and ask great questions... it just shows we care.

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post #47 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 09:37 PM
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Well, something needs to be done, because we have been doing the same thing for a long as I can remember, which is just throwing more and more money at the problem.

No one was able to answer my question: "What was the lotto going to fix and help fund? Anyone? Anyone?" Still need more money. Sad. They are spending more money than they were in 1981, adjusted for inflation and are still having poor results.

Definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results.
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post #48 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 09:40 PM
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The lotto has been a joke as far as helping fund education. Then we have the lotto officials admitting they embellished the weekly pots to promote ticket sales! You have a great question, and one that I can't even guess at.

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post #49 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by TexasDevilDog
Well, something needs to be done, because we have been doing the same thing for a long as I can remember, which is just throwing more and more money at the problem.

No one was able to answer my question: "What was the lotto going to fix and help fund? Anyone? Anyone?" Still need more money. Sad. They are spending more money than they were in 1981, adjusted for inflation and are still having poor results.

Definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results.
Fully, 100%, agree with you.

I didn't think the lotto was going to save education when they brought it in. I doubt video gambling will make a dent in the problem either. Over the years, about $7 billion has been sent over to the Foundation School Fund (about .30 out of every dollar played, 58 cents out of each dollar goes to prize amounts)

Look at the cost of getting a college education. It's going up faster than your taxes. While (I hope) the cost of elementary/secondary education isn't going up as fast, it's going up fast than taxes. At the moment, PISD is at the cap. They cannot increase their portion of taxes for operations anymore. What happens? They started funding operations as debt to get around the cap. They do stupid things like capitalize calculators for students instead of expensing them like they should have.

Each politcal subdivision has two tax rates, M&0 (maintenance and operations) and I&S (interest and sinking fund). The state doesn't limit I&S but they do limit M&O.

Look at what happened to Bedford this year. The citizens decided enough was enough, had a rollback election and voted to rollback taxes. Each resident got a small rebate back.

The city shuttered the library, didn't open their wave pool and stopped cutting their grass to make budget. If it wasn't for an anonymous donation of 300K, the library would still be closed. If it wasn't for the benevolence of some Bedford teenagers, the city's grass wouldn't be cut (the teens are doing it for free, using their own equipment, including purchasing a 3K mower to help).

You can say, well, we're paying the taxes, we'll decide who gets educated and how they get educated (no more English as a second language, etc.). But, I think 20 years out you'll look back and say, WTF? You'll have an entire new set of problems.

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post #50 of 83 (permalink) Old 06-26-2005, 10:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TexasDevilDog
If the private schools are just as good as the public, but they are cheaper, then we should close the public ones. The public schools are a waste of money if they can't do a better job with more money.
I am not sure what 01WC calls "second tier" private schools, the one I send my daughter to is probably what he would call second tier. The education isn't, but whatever.

TDD, you will never find a person sending his child to public school who will admit that public schools suck. Just like you will never find a parent dropping their child off at daycare and admitting daycare is not the best way to raise a child, it just won't happen. There are good public school systems and daycares, but they are rare.

To answer your question about why public schools spend so much with so little success, just go to a public school every day for a week. You will see handicapped children, children with behavioral problems, children with no books in their hands, and major discipline issues on every hallway. All of these children must be dealt with by the schools. You rarely see any of that at any private school, except the physically handicapped, no matter the tier level you give it.

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