It's been confirmed: In the capital of _________ they burned the American flag!!! - DFWstangs Forums
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post #1 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-04-2005, 06:08 AM Thread Starter
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It's been confirmed: In the capital of _________ they burned the American flag!!!

I mean really, why is the world news making a big deal about someone who "kicked" the koran? I could care-less what they do with it. Why is it all of a sudden a big deal that this might have happened and on a daily basis in dozens of places, people burn the American flag?
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post #2 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-04-2005, 06:17 AM
 
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I know other religions and countries have done the same or worse to the Bible/Flag.

But we are the greatest country on earth and we are held to a higher standard.

We shouldn't lower our standards.

The US is a melting pot of all religions. There are many peaceful Muslims in the US and that was insulting to other Americans.

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post #3 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-04-2005, 06:21 AM
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I think the U.S. citizens should a weekly book-burning...but only the Koran! Put it on CNN every Saturday night. When the fire begins to die down, then all the participants will PISS ON the ashes...or maybe not.

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post #4 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-04-2005, 06:30 PM
 
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The Quran is the holy word of God, and is a symbol of him on earth. For some Muslims, to desecrate the Quran is to literally perform that act on Allah himself.

It is like the artists that make statues of Christ on the cross and smear dog shit or urine all over them...
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post #5 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-04-2005, 09:59 PM
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IMO All that koran bs is just that, its a fucking god damned book... only thing i'd like our goverment to explain to me about that gitmo prisoner crap is why in the hell any of those fuckers are still breathing and costing me money.
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post #6 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-05-2005, 02:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murph Tang
There are many peaceful Muslims in the US and that was insulting to other Americans.
Some closet fanatics too.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...060401646.html

Quote:
The Woman Who Went To the Front of the Mosque
Feminist Faces Ostracism -- or Worse -- for Praying Among Men

By Teresa Wiltz
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, June 5, 2005; Page D01

MORGANTOWN, W.Va. It was two days after she appeared on "Nightline" talking about her fight to change her mosque that the death threats began. The first call came on her cell phone. The caller left a message, in Urdu: "If you want to stay alive, keep your mouth shut." Otherwise, he said, he would "slaughter" her, halal style, saying a prayer as he slid a knife across her throat. If she didn't shut up, he'd slaughter her mother and her father, too. Think before you speak, he said. I know where you live. I know where your parents live.
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post #7 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murph Tang
I know other religions and countries have done the same or worse to the Bible/Flag.

But we are the greatest country on earth and we are held to a higher standard.

We shouldn't lower our standards.

The US is a melting pot of all religions. There are many peaceful Muslims in the US and that was insulting to other Americans.
As long as we have soldiers over there doing what the people who fled here from there homeland wouldn't do, I don't think we need to apologize for a damn thing.

There are only a few on this board who know the pressures put onto those soldiers, so who are we, or the public who isn't under that stress to judge them?
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post #8 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 06:45 AM
 
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Originally Posted by reef93gt
As long as we have soldiers over there doing what the people who fled here from there homeland wouldn't do, I don't think we need to apologize for a damn thing.

There are only a few on this board who know the pressures put onto those soldiers, so who are we, or the public who isn't under that stress to judge them?

I can't imagine the stress they are put upon.

But we have to above all of that.

There are people who have fled from the trials of their country. There are Muslims who are born into the country and there are those who like many of our forefathers came here for a better life.

I am supportive of our troops. It is a few who have made mistakes that has gotten international media coverage.

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post #9 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 09:41 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Murph Tang
... and that was insulting to other Americans.
And therein lies the problem.

We can't be all things to all people. We have tried that bit for the last 50-odd years, and now we're so crippled by what is considered "correct" that we can't call people from Mexico, "mexicans."

Give me a break. If you understand WHO it was that was rioting in the streets, it was Afghani followers of Saudi Arabia's fast-spreading version of Islam called Wahhabism. They are more hard-core, more fundamentalist. They feel that any deviation from a barbaric existence such as the life of Muhammed is a sin, and should result in death for the infidel that leads such a life (including Muslims).

In other words, any Muslim that lets their wife drive, or lives in America, cannot be a wahhabist.

Not that pissing on a Quran is not offensive, but it's not quite the same thing to any American Muslims. Or so I hear. lol
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post #10 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 10:22 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Danny
And therein lies the problem.

We can't be all things to all people. We have tried that bit for the last 50-odd years, and now we're so crippled by what is considered "correct" that we can't call people from Mexico, "mexicans."

Give me a break. If you understand WHO it was that was rioting in the streets, it was Afghani followers of Saudi Arabia's fast-spreading version of Islam called Wahhabism. They are more hard-core, more fundamentalist. They feel that any deviation from a barbaric existence such as the life of Muhammed is a sin, and should result in death for the infidel that leads such a life (including Muslims).

In other words, any Muslim that lets their wife drive, or lives in America, cannot be a wahhabist.

Not that pissing on a Quran is not offensive, but it's not quite the same thing to any American Muslims. Or so I hear. lol
http://www.michigandaily.com/vnews/d.../42a43ac6ae988

I believe these Americans viewed it as offensive.

I am not speaking about Wahhabism. I was speaking how desecrating the Quran is not respectful toward those Muslims who are peaceful.

Yes Muslims in other countrys desecrate the Bible. Yes many Muslims hate us.

But if we are going to be viewed as the greatest country of the world then we rise above above trappling other religions. Otherwise instead of helping democracy prevail we are turning our causes into a holy war. Then the freedoms our forefathers worked for goes for nothing.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

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post #11 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 10:36 AM
 
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Please, dude.

We're ALLOWING them to properly practice their religion while they're detained. Any other nation would tell them to get bent. A small, untrue inpropriety that was briefly mentioned blew up into an international scandal. It's not just because a book was allegedly pissed/crapped on...

There is nothing we can do that will get other nations to respect us as the greatest nation in the world. We already are; we already do more for social justice than any civilization in history, we feed more people, we provide care and relief for more people. Yet we are hated beyond belief. Time to say Fuck Em, let them wallow in misery and nuke them when they get too big for their breeches.
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post #12 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 11:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Danny
Please, dude.

We're ALLOWING them to properly practice their religion while they're detained. Any other nation would tell them to get bent. A small, untrue inpropriety that was briefly mentioned blew up into an international scandal. It's not just because a book was allegedly pissed/crapped on...

There is nothing we can do that will get other nations to respect us as the greatest nation in the world. We already are; we already do more for social justice than any civilization in history, we feed more people, we provide care and relief for more people. Yet we are hated beyond belief. Time to say Fuck Em, let them wallow in misery and nuke them when they get too big for their breeches.

You may think of it as only a book but others view it as extremely sacred. It was a stupid act done by a minority that shouldn't reflect on all of our great service men and women. But because many in the world portray the occupation of Iraq as a Christian United States vs. Muslim Arab war.....this adds fuel to an already explosive fire.

Lead by example.

Our country does a great number of things and many countries do align with us and show support. It isn't United States vs. the world.

To say fuck em and nuke them is just great and very thought provoking. Two words: Global Market.

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post #13 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 12:23 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Murph Tang
You may think of it as only a book but others view it as extremely sacred.
Didn't I already say that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny
The Quran is the holy word of God, and is a symbol of him on earth. For some Muslims, to desecrate the Quran is to literally perform that act on Allah himself.
Quote:
It was a stupid act done by a minority that shouldn't reflect on all of our great service men and women.
It was an act done by maybe fewer than ten individuals, if it even happened at all.
Quote:
To say fuck em and nuke them is just great and very thought provoking. Two words: Global Market.
I suppose I should add more smileys so that my sarcastic tone is clear.
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post #14 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 12:35 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny
Didn't I already say that?

It was an act done by maybe fewer than ten individuals, if it even happened at all.
I suppose I should add more smileys so that my sarcastic tone is clear.

I don't think you made that clear......you said it probably wasn't offensive to American Muslims which is untrue.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/...in699665.shtml

I'll match your sarcastic tone and only give you one smiley:

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post #15 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 01:03 PM
 
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Did you read that article?

Quote:
White House officials note that the investigation also found 15 cases of detainees mishandling their own Qurans.
LOL.


Apparently the US government holds the Quran in about as high regard as the detainees themselves. No need to change a damn thing IMO... the violent anti-American uprisings will continue even if we give every Muslim in the world a 24K gold Quran.
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post #16 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 01:56 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny
Did you read that article?



LOL.


Apparently the US government holds the Quran in about as high regard as the detainees themselves. No need to change a damn thing IMO... the violent anti-American uprisings will continue even if we give every Muslim in the world a 24K gold Quran.

I wonder what the context of "mishandling."

Just because 15 detainees didn't "handle" the Quran the proper way doesn't give any justification to kick or pour urine on it to insult detainees that might have "handled" it properly and consider it sacred.

The point is not giving every Muslim a 24K Quran. The point is to not lower our standards.

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post #17 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 02:08 PM
 
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The point is to not lower our standards.
Well, in a country of 300million citizens, individual actions can't be controlled, no matter the situation. They have been trained not to do that, Bush didn't tell them to piss on a Quran, and yet it still happened. Sorry, I think these violations are incredibly minor:
Quote:
On March 25, a detainee complained to guards that "urine came through an air vent" and splashed on him and his Quran. A guard admitted he was at fault, but a report released Friday evening offering new details about Quran mishandling incidents did not make clear whether the guard intended the result.

In another confirmed incident, water balloons thrown by prison guards caused an unspecified number of Qurans to get wet, and in a confirmed but ambiguous case, a two-word obscenity was written in English on the inside cover of a Quran.
I believe that if someone is looking for justification to hate us, they're going to - no matter what we actually do. THAT is what we're already up against, there is no fixing that.

Again, I don't believe that we need to change any of our policies regarding treatment of detainees in custody. However, holding them without charge and no forseeable trial date is admittedly criminal. For instance, I wouldn't want to be held in another country under those same circumstances. But that's not what the Afghanis were rioting over.
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post #18 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 02:10 PM
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The clowns they have at Gitmo could have information that could save American lives. I believe that 99.9% of them should be there and are there for a reason. They didn't just go down the street in Iraq picking people up, these were armed resistance fighters. Insurgents. And the Geneva Conventions DO NOT apply to insurgent fighters no matter how hard the Europeans and horseshit amnesty international wish it to be so.

If it saves one life to desecrate the Koran, the Bible or anything else then fucking desecrate away. These are just books, just paper nothing more. Just like terrorism, war is ugly, interrogations are ugly. Not really meant for the public at large. But these people want to kill me, you, your entire family, any American they can. I'll have no sympathy for them whatsoever, I refuse to have any compassion or mercy. These mother fuckers want to be hardcore, let them see what hardcore is. Islam is unbreakable? We'll see about that. I say bust out the pliers and a blow torch. Turn the fucking dogs loose on the mother fuckers and find out what they know. These people want to cut your head off, stone people to death, deny women the rights that civilized people enjoy, murder someone when they don't get their way, including their neighbors. The list of acts goes on and on and on. These people act like animals and treat others like animals we should give them no mercy whatsoever.
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post #19 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 05:38 PM
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Can I get an "Amen"...

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post #20 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murph Tang
I can't imagine the stress they are put upon.

But we have to above all of that.

There are people who have fled from the trials of their country. There are Muslims who are born into the country and there are those who like many of our forefathers came here for a better life.

I am supportive of our troops. It is a few who have made mistakes that has gotten international media coverage.

This is not about "we" it is about those soldiers over there. If what they did get's one Muslim to turn over some evidence that saves one single soldiers life then so be it.

It's very easy to sit behind a computer screen and talk about wrong from right, it's another thing to have to live under that stress like those soldiers do ever single day.

We have bent over far too long to try to be above everyone else, and the only thing it has ever done for us is backfire, as they know that they can break the rules and we will still adhere to them.
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post #21 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by AL P
The clowns they have at Gitmo could have information that could save American lives. I believe that 99.9% of them should be there and are there for a reason. They didn't just go down the street in Iraq picking people up, these were armed resistance fighters. Insurgents. And the Geneva Conventions DO NOT apply to insurgent fighters no matter how hard the Europeans and horseshit amnesty international wish it to be so.

If it saves one life to desecrate the Koran, the Bible or anything else then fucking desecrate away. These are just books, just paper nothing more. Just like terrorism, war is ugly, interrogations are ugly. Not really meant for the public at large. But these people want to kill me, you, your entire family, any American they can. I'll have no sympathy for them whatsoever, I refuse to have any compassion or mercy. These mother fuckers want to be hardcore, let them see what hardcore is. Islam is unbreakable? We'll see about that. I say bust out the pliers and a blow torch. Turn the fucking dogs loose on the mother fuckers and find out what they know. These people want to cut your head off, stone people to death, deny women the rights that civilized people enjoy, murder someone when they don't get their way, including their neighbors. The list of acts goes on and on and on. These people act like animals and treat others like animals we should give them no mercy whatsoever.
Al,
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post #22 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 06:59 PM
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It is all B/S.,..anything for a story. Probably still should have not descreated the Muslim book, but still B/S.
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post #23 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 09:07 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AL P
The clowns they have at Gitmo could have information that could save American lives. I believe that 99.9% of them should be there and are there for a reason. They didn't just go down the street in Iraq picking people up, these were armed resistance fighters. Insurgents. And the Geneva Conventions DO NOT apply to insurgent fighters no matter how hard the Europeans and horseshit amnesty international wish it to be so.

If it saves one life to desecrate the Koran, the Bible or anything else then fucking desecrate away. These are just books, just paper nothing more. Just like terrorism, war is ugly, interrogations are ugly. Not really meant for the public at large. But these people want to kill me, you, your entire family, any American they can. I'll have no sympathy for them whatsoever, I refuse to have any compassion or mercy. These mother fuckers want to be hardcore, let them see what hardcore is. Islam is unbreakable? We'll see about that. I say bust out the pliers and a blow torch. Turn the fucking dogs loose on the mother fuckers and find out what they know. These people want to cut your head off, stone people to death, deny women the rights that civilized people enjoy, murder someone when they don't get their way, including their neighbors. The list of acts goes on and on and on. These people act like animals and treat others like animals we should give them no mercy whatsoever.
The problem lies not with interrogation of those detainees but with the outside Muslims around the world. You say its just paper, just a book...but for those of the Muslim religion the Quran is an embodiment of their god or Allah himself.

I agree we should use just about every means necessary to protect and defend. But understand that those who are NOT detainees but peaceful Muslims are insulted spiritually. Classifying all Muslims like those that are detained is a misguided classification.

Twenty-two percent of the world is of Muslim religion. Millions live in the US. They are people you talk to everyday. They serve our country.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/attack...plains20.shtml

There are approximately 550 detainees at Guantanamo. There are millions upon millions of Muslims besides those 550 that revere the Quran.

Don't blame the great number of peaceful Muslims for being upset over something they feel sacred about. They have every right to be angry.

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Last edited by Murph Tang; 06-06-2005 at 09:13 PM.
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post #24 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 09:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reef93gt
We have bent over far too long to try to be above everyone else, and the only thing it has ever done for us is backfire, as they know that they can break the rules and we will still adhere to them.

How has this backfire?

Examples please.

What rules do they break and we adhere to?

Should we then break those rules and become what they are?

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post #25 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 09:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AL P
The clowns they have at Gitmo could have information that could save American lives. I believe that 99.9% of them should be there and are there for a reason. They didn't just go down the street in Iraq picking people up, these were armed resistance fighters. Insurgents. And the Geneva Conventions DO NOT apply to insurgent fighters no matter how hard the Europeans and horseshit amnesty international wish it to be so.

If it saves one life to desecrate the Koran, the Bible or anything else then fucking desecrate away. These are just books, just paper nothing more. Just like terrorism, war is ugly, interrogations are ugly. Not really meant for the public at large. But these people want to kill me, you, your entire family, any American they can. I'll have no sympathy for them whatsoever, I refuse to have any compassion or mercy. These mother fuckers want to be hardcore, let them see what hardcore is. Islam is unbreakable? We'll see about that. I say bust out the pliers and a blow torch. Turn the fucking dogs loose on the mother fuckers and find out what they know. These people want to cut your head off, stone people to death, deny women the rights that civilized people enjoy, murder someone when they don't get their way, including their neighbors. The list of acts goes on and on and on. These people act like animals and treat others like animals we should give them no mercy whatsoever.
I concur wholeheartedly. In fact, I think we should kill one of these "insurgent" raghead motherfuckers on live national television on a regular basis. If I piss anyone off with my thoughts, fuckoff.
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post #26 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murph Tang
How has this backfire?

Examples please.

What rules do they break and we adhere to?

Should we then break those rules and become what they are?

We try to deal with people by our own(western) rules, they then take this as a sign of weakness. We try to relate everything into American terms, being that we want everybody to get along, to Muslims there is no getting along. This entire 9/11 situation has been a backfire of how we deal with other cultures, I GW senior would have went the whole way, or Clinton would have sought out and punished those who attacked U.S. Soldiers in Kuwait, or the U.S.S. Cole we would not have had a 9/11 as these people would have know not to cross that line. But, we got tied up into looking like the bad guy.


Want a rule they break ok here's one
During the Land War in Iraq, the Iraq Army displayed white flags signaling that they were surrendering, the U.S. Army then rolled passed them, leaving them to the Rear Encelon Troops Following behind, these same Iraq Soldiers then open fire on the U.S. Troops as soon as their backs were to them. - Geneva Convention

As far as "US" breaking the rules, I don't see "US" behind these computer screens breaking any rules, or making a difference. It is those US Soldiers who gave up their families, and even their lives that may have to break them. So, are you going to tell them that they are wrong to their face?

It's easy to sit back and be "high and mighty", is a different thing to be on the ground, making decision that affect you and your fellow soldiers.
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post #27 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 09:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murph Tang
The problem lies not with interrogation of those detainees but with the outside Muslims around the world. You say its just paper, just a book...but for those of the Muslim religion the Quran is an embodiment of their god or Allah himself.

I agree we should use just about every means necessary to protect and defend. But understand that those who are NOT detainees but peaceful Muslims are insulted spiritually. Classifying all Muslims like those that are detained is a misguided classification.

Twenty-two percent of the world is of Muslim religion. Millions live in the US. They are people you talk to everyday. They serve our country.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/attack...plains20.shtml

There are approximately 550 detainees at Guantanamo. There are millions upon millions of Muslims besides those 550 that revere the Quran.

Don't blame the great number of peaceful Muslims for being upset over something they feel sacred about. They have every right to be angry.
I've never seen an American Muslim stand up a speak out when a U.S. flag is burned have you? The flag is something millions of American's have served under, but we say nothing when it is burned, but let a book you can buy for $9.95 get a little wet, and now there is a call for a jihad?

Also, how many of these Iraqui Muslims that are in the U.S. have you seen run back home to the "mother land" now that it is free of Sadamm? Probably none, but you will see them on TV talking bad about the U.S., but still living here.

As far as them serving our country that's interesting, how many do you know that serve....besides the one that opened fire on his Unit in Iraq?
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post #28 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-06-2005, 10:04 PM
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Following "rules" in a war, is like bringing a knife to a gunfight. If we were beheading prisoners daily, I bet we'd have their fucking attention.

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post #29 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 07:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murph Tang
The problem lies not with interrogation of those detainees but with the outside Muslims around the world. You say its just paper, just a book...but for those of the Muslim religion the Quran is an embodiment of their god or Allah himself.

I agree we should use just about every means necessary to protect and defend. But understand that those who are NOT detainees but peaceful Muslims are insulted spiritually. Classifying all Muslims like those that are detained is a misguided classification.

Twenty-two percent of the world is of Muslim religion. Millions live in the US. They are people you talk to everyday. They serve our country.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/attack...plains20.shtml

There are approximately 550 detainees at Guantanamo. There are millions upon millions of Muslims besides those 550 that revere the Quran.

Don't blame the great number of peaceful Muslims for being upset over something they feel sacred about. They have every right to be angry.
You seem to really be making the stretch to try and say I'm classifying all muslims just as I do the people at Gitmo. I didn't do that, nor have I ever done it. It makes a convenient politically correct point but it's baloney.

I had several points:
Chief is the fact that other Muslims need to get the fuck over it. I'm not Muslim. The Koran is just another book to me. I don't believe like they do and no matter how much they attempt to impose their beliefs on me by insisting I respect the Koran I simply won't do it. The same goes for the Bible thumping Christians, the Buddhists, the Satanists, the Pagans, etc... I don't give a shit what their religion is, their beliefs are between them and their god and do not concern me in any way and I don't have to believe jack shit. It's what makes this country great. It's called freedom. And it doesn't end just because I do something that someone takes offense to. The idea that someone should be able to tell someone else what the fuck to believe is what makes the middle east so god damned pleasant these days. You'd think these people would learn but oh hell fuck no....let's keep right on doing it.

Second point is the the methods used for interrogation should not be public knowledge. The men at Gitmo are attempting to save people's lives, they aren't running a summer camp. Let them do what they got to do. I have faith that they don't do the things they do just for fun.

Third, these people at Gitmo have proclaimed themselves to be unbreakable. They've said they will die for their cause. In my opinion its too late for them to start backing out now.
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post #30 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 08:03 AM
 
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We try to deal with people by our own(western) rules, they then take this as a sign of weakness. We try to relate everything into American terms, being that we want everybody to get along, to Muslims there is no getting along. This entire 9/11 situation has been a backfire of how we deal with other cultures, I GW senior would have went the whole way, or Clinton would have sought out and punished those who attacked U.S. Soldiers in Kuwait, or the U.S.S. Cole we would not have had a 9/11 as these people would have know not to cross that line. But, we got tied up into looking like the bad guy.


Want a rule they break ok here's one
During the Land War in Iraq, the Iraq Army displayed white flags signaling that they were surrendering, the U.S. Army then rolled passed them, leaving them to the Rear Encelon Troops Following behind, these same Iraq Soldiers then open fire on the U.S. Troops as soon as their backs were to them. - Geneva Convention

As far as "US" breaking the rules, I don't see "US" behind these computer screens breaking any rules, or making a difference. It is those US Soldiers who gave up their families, and even their lives that may have to break them. So, are you going to tell them that they are wrong to their face?

It's easy to sit back and be "high and mighty", is a different thing to be on the ground, making decision that affect you and your fellow soldiers.
So your point is that this is a war between all Muslims vs. the United States?

If we would have captured Iraq initally how would that have prevented Saudi born 9/11 hijackers from flying planes into the twin towers and Pentagon?

The Iraq war has become a war without rules (simliar to Vietnam.) Most of the rules of war are being broken by the insurgents. Your example is excellant. However we must understand that we cannot lump all Muslims into one big classification and saying they are all fault or our enemies.

When it comes to life and death at war I cannot tell a soldier what to do. They are fighting for the freedoms of all Americans and everyone to me is considered a hero.

I can however give my opinion that we must be smart on how we handle ourselves in relation to religion. As with every war there is a propraganda machine of the enemy and they are quick to try and make it into a holy war.
If this becomes a holy war then everyone will lose.

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post #31 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 08:04 AM
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How has this backfire?

Examples please.

What rules do they break and we adhere to?

Should we then break those rules and become what they are?
Crimes against humanity. They crashed a plane into a building and killed 3,000 people. We could have turned the entire country of Afghanistan into a pile of radioactive dust but we didn't.

Should we have done it? Probably not.

It has backfired via the body count from Afghanistan.
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post #32 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 08:15 AM
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What does the Kuran say about a Muslim that mishandles their own book? So, why don't we do them a favor and "punish" those 15 detainees that mishandled the Kuran? Wouldn't we be following their "rules"?

Oh, I'm sorry...we'd be cruel and facists in that "gulag" if we did.
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post #33 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 08:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murph Tang
So your point is that this is a war between all Muslims vs. the United States?

If we would have captured Iraq initally how would that have prevented Saudi born 9/11 hijackers from flying planes into the twin towers and Pentagon?

The Iraq war has become a war without rules (simliar to Vietnam.) Most of the rules of war are being broken by the insurgents. Your example is excellant. However we must understand that we cannot lump all Muslims into one big classification and saying they are all fault or our enemies.

When it comes to life and death at war I cannot tell a soldier what to do. They are fighting for the freedoms of all Americans and everyone to me is considered a hero.

I can however give my opinion that we must be smart on how we handle ourselves in relation to religion. As with every war there is a propraganda machine of the enemy and they are quick to try and make it into a holy war.
If this becomes a holy war then everyone will lose.
If we would have dealt with them before 9/11 it would have set a precedent, and they would have know that we deal with situations quickly and with force.


Yes I can lump all the Muslims together, and I do

Your opinion is just that your opinion, but until you are where the rubber meets the road where those soldiers are right now, you opinion mean the same as mine, not a damn thing.

As far as the propraganda machine, there will always be a those who try to turn it into something that it isn't, however if what they(interogators) do saves one U.S. life, then why should we care what anyone thinks?
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post #34 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 08:28 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AL P
You seem to really be making the stretch to try and say I'm classifying all muslims just as I do the people at Gitmo. I didn't do that, nor have I ever done it. It makes a convenient politically correct point but it's baloney.

I had several points:
Chief is the fact that other Muslims need to get the fuck over it. I'm not Muslim. The Koran is just another book to me. I don't believe like they do and no matter how much they attempt to impose their beliefs on me by insisting I respect the Koran I simply won't do it. The same goes for the Bible thumping Christians, the Buddhists, the Satanists, the Pagans, etc... I don't give a shit what their religion is, their beliefs are between them and their god and do not concern me in any way and I don't have to believe jack shit. It's what makes this country great. It's called freedom. And it doesn't end just because I do something that someone takes offense to. The idea that someone should be able to tell someone else what the fuck to believe is what makes the middle east so god damned pleasant these days. You'd think these people would learn but oh hell fuck no....let's keep right on doing it.

Second point is the the methods used for interrogation should not be public knowledge. The men at Gitmo are attempting to save people's lives, they aren't running a summer camp. Let them do what they got to do. I have faith that they don't do the things they do just for fun.

Third, these people at Gitmo have proclaimed themselves to be unbreakable. They've said they will die for their cause. In my opinion its too late for them to start backing out now.
I did not say you were specifically trying to label all Muslims but that is overall tone when people say "fuck the ragheads kill them all." I was not referring to you makeing that generalization.

That is completely your freedom to not care about religion. I personally have no problem with that. But as I mentioned above we have to be smart how we (United States) handles it politically and globally in respect to those who do care about religion.

The methods of interrogation should be made private. It all should have been kept quiet. Somebody screwed up.

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post #35 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 08:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AL P
Crimes against humanity. They crashed a plane into a building and killed 3,000 people. We could have turned the entire country of Afghanistan into a pile of radioactive dust but we didn't.

Should we have done it? Probably not.

It has backfired via the body count from Afghanistan.

Now you have lumped all Muslims into the same classifications as those 15 hijackers.

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post #36 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 08:40 AM
 
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Now you have lumped all Muslims into the same classifications as those 15 hijackers.
Where?

"THEY" crashed a plane meant the 15 Saudis...

MT, playing nice with Islamic dictators for the past 50yrs hasn't gotten us very far with them, has it?
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post #37 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 08:40 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reef93gt
If we would have dealt with them before 9/11 it would have set a precedent, and they would have know that we deal with situations quickly and with force.


Yes I can lump all the Muslims together, and I do

Your opinion is just that your opinion, but until you are where the rubber meets the road where those soldiers are right now, you opinion mean the same as mine, not a damn thing.

As far as the propraganda machine, there will always be a those who try to turn it into something that it isn't, however if what they(interogators) do saves one U.S. life, then why should we care what anyone thinks?
I agree if the interogators do save a life its is worth it but we should be understanding that there could be a polarizing effect amoung the Muslims in countries other than Iraq.

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post #38 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 08:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny
Where?

"THEY" crashed a plane meant the 15 Saudis...

MT, playing nice with Islamic dictators for the past 50yrs hasn't gotten us very far with them, has it?

The original debate was from what rules do they break and we follow.

Saying that "they" crashed a plane was not specific to the 15 Saudis (and one non-Saudis born.) This is piggybacked from earlier post about your summation that all Muslims break the rules of war (white flag.)

Maybe Al can clear that up.

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post #39 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 08:56 AM
 
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MT, playing nice with Islamic dictators for the past 50yrs hasn't gotten us very far with them, has it?
Probably just being on this board you enjoy the relationship we have had with the Saudi governement.

Petroleum.

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post #40 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murph Tang
http://www.michigandaily.com/vnews/d.../42a43ac6ae988

I believe these Americans viewed it as offensive.

I am not speaking about Wahhabism. I was speaking how desecrating the Quran is not respectful toward those Muslims who are peaceful.
Like being respectful to the followers of Jim Jones and David Koresh too, all cults. Where was the outrage at the painting of the virgin Mary with dung on it. Because it was art and not the government, people will say.

I am going to make some art with a koran tonight and I will post it up.
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post #41 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 09:31 AM
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Now you have lumped all Muslims into the same classifications as those 15 hijackers.
Where did he say muslims, he said "Afghanistan"?
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post #42 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 09:32 AM
 
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Like being respectful to the followers of Jim Jones and David Koresh too, all cults. Where was the outrage at the painting of the virgin Mary with dung on it. Because it was art and not the government, people will say.

I am going to make some art with a koran tonight and I will post it up.
You are comparing Jim Jones and David Koresh to the Muslim faith?

Nice.

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post #43 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 09:32 AM
 
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Quote:
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Where did he say muslims, he said "Afghanistan"?
refer to above.

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post #44 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
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You are comparing Jim Jones and David Koresh to the Muslim faith?

Nice.
Yes I am. If a pedophile, murdering, rapist is declared a prophet of god, it is a cult. I call it like a see it.
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post #45 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murph Tang
refer to above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlP
Crimes against humanity. They crashed a plane into a building and killed 3,000 people. We could have turned the entire country of Afghanistan into a pile of radioactive dust but we didn't.

Should we have done it? Probably not.

It has backfired via the body count from Afghanistan.
Still don't see muslim in there.
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post #46 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 09:38 AM
 
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Still don't see muslim in there.
The original debate was from what rules do they break and we follow.

Saying that "they" crashed a plane was not specific to the 15 Saudis (and one non-Saudis born.) This is piggybacked from earlier post about your summation that all Muslims break the rules of war (white flag.)

Maybe Al can clear that up.




better?

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post #47 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 09:48 AM
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Well

I understand about the book being a Holy symbol, but If someone desecrated a King James bible I would not kill innocent people just because they are of the same nationality as the person who committed the act. That is the difference between violent radical behavior and true belief in a higher power. I don't condone desecrating anyones beliefs, but it is just a book and not worth taking a persons life over. Where is the the peaceful nature and love of God in that? Now don't get me wrong I believe in the fight against terrorism, but killing for the sake of a book is wrong.
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post #48 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 10:00 AM
 
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I understand about the book being a Holy symbol, but If someone desecrated a King James bible I would not kill innocent people just because they are of the same nationality as the person who committed the act. That is the difference between violent radical behavior and true belief in a higher power. I don't condone desecrating anyones beliefs, but it is just a book and not worth taking a persons life over. Where is the the peaceful nature and love of God in that? Now don't get me wrong I believe in the fight against terrorism, but killing for the sake of a book is wrong.
Attributing to what happened at Guantanomo I don't believe there have been direct killings in retaliation.

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post #49 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 10:04 AM
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So your point is that this is a war between all Muslims vs. the United States?
My opinion is that we are in the opening skirmishes of a battle that will eventually lead to a major conflict between muslims and western civilization.

They have made it clear that the western way of living is incompatible with islam; indeed the quran makes specific references to "infidels" and the like. There appears to be no "live and let live" as we subscribe to here in the US with them.

20-25 years ago who ever heard of these people? and yet here we are today. The radical islamic movement appears to be growing by leaps and bounds. Just the fact that maybe someone pissed on a quran and that was enough to inflame the islamic community against the entire US is telling. Even europe is starting to struggle with the flames & conflict of radical islam (netherlands & france) due to the immigration and setting of muslims in those areas.

We are not dealing with people that see things the way we see them.

We are dealing with people that want to kill us, our families, and our way of life.

IMO eventually the world community will wake up and realize the threat but by then it will be far too late.

Sure, there are some peaceful muslims; probably a great many of them living as US citizens. This is as it should be.

But I have to wonder where is the outrage from the peaceful muslim community against the atroticies being performed in the name of Allah around the world?

Makes ya wonder.
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post #50 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-07-2005, 10:21 AM
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Yes there were

Don't you recall when the story broke? Bush got involved and the story was retracted. I believe there were about 15 people killed in direct retaliation on the very first day.
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