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post #1 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 09:04 AM Thread Starter
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More Kerry double talk?

It was reported last night on Fox that John Kerry is calling for President Bush to stop supplying the Strategic Oil Reserve to help slow the rise in gas prices. They also reported that when Clinton was asked to do the same thing during his term that Kerry was one of the outspoken Senators who said that idea was unwise and the effect on gas prices from doing that would be "negligible".

I don't have quotes, I don't know if it was some senate vote, if it was just a speech at a public forum or what, but wouldn't it be priceless to have Kerry double speaking again when it suits his political agenda. If it is true, isn't that the epitome of partisan double talk to have one position when it is your party in the Oval office but have the opposite position when your opponent is in office?

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post #2 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 09:06 AM
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I think Congress instead should just cut the taxes on gasoline.
That be nice

Stand by or fight while Obama wages his war against capitalism...
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post #3 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 09:13 AM Thread Starter
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I am for a user tax like the tax on gasoline, but what about drilling in federal preserves and protected woodlands and such?

Oh yeah, the democrats say we can't do that, right? But it is still Bush's fault the price of gasoline is rising.

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post #4 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 09:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 90 Notch
I am for a user tax like the tax on gasoline, but what about drilling in federal preserves and protected woodlands and such?

Oh yeah, the democrats say we can't do that, right? But it is still Bush's fault the price of gasoline is rising.
Yea, I dont think we have set up a new oil refinary since the 1970s
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post #5 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 09:44 AM
 
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Who knows. I am so tired of this sort of thing. I honestly don't know what to believe anymore. You hear things about Kerry, Bush..... Who knows. The media seems to distort things to their favor and add in the fact that politicians are just fat liars anyway.....I have no clue what to think. I really don't like either one of them.
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post #6 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 10:32 AM
 
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Re: More Kerry double talk?

Quote:
Originally posted by 90 Notch
It was reported last night on Fox that John Kerry is calling for President Bush to stop supplying the Strategic Oil Reserve to help slow the rise in gas prices. They also reported that when Clinton was asked to do the same thing during his term that Kerry was one of the outspoken Senators who said that idea was unwise and the effect on gas prices from doing that would be "negligible".

I don't have quotes, I don't know if it was some senate vote, if it was just a speech at a public forum or what, but wouldn't it be priceless to have Kerry double speaking again when it suits his political agenda. If it is true, isn't that the epitome of partisan double talk to have one position when it is your party in the Oval office but have the opposite position when your opponent is in office?
Actually back in October of 2000 when Clinton decided to tap into the Strategic Petroleum Reserve it was to offset the ricing prices of heating oil specifically. It was not intended to affect the auto industry gas prices. So the issues are essentially seperate if your opinion holds true. If in fact as you say Kerry is taking a different stance this time, does it matter? Especially if the two reserve releases are for totally seperate issues that have nothing in common.
It is economics pure and not always simple, it can't be blamed on an administration or a singel industry. So you can and should expect members of the Senate to vote differently from time to time on releasing strategic oil reserves when they are not related to the last vote.
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post #7 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 11:10 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Re: More Kerry double talk?

Quote:
Originally posted by 80notch
Actually back in October of 2000 when Clinton decided to tap into the Strategic Petroleum Reserve it was to offset the ricing prices of heating oil specifically. It was not intended to affect the auto industry gas prices. So the issues are essentially seperate if your opinion holds true. If in fact as you say Kerry is taking a different stance this time, does it matter? Especially if the two reserve releases are for totally seperate issues that have nothing in common.
It is economics pure and not always simple, it can't be blamed on an administration or a singel industry. So you can and should expect members of the Senate to vote differently from time to time on releasing strategic oil reserves when they are not related to the last vote.
Good try, but changing positions when your party is on the hot seat and when it is not is hypocrisy in my mind. Spin it all you want, it boils down to Kerry saying "do what I say, not what I do" to me. If it won't do anything for the price of gasoline now, why would it affect the price of heating oil back then?

Just like the environmentally friendly party candidate lying about owning SUV's and then saying after he was shown pictures of several of them in his driveway, "oh yeah, THOSE SUV's, my family owns them, not me". LOL

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post #8 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 11:56 AM
 
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Re: Re: Re: More Kerry double talk?

Quote:
Originally posted by 90 Notch
Good try, but changing positions when your party is on the hot seat and when it is not is hypocrisy in my mind. Spin it all you want, it boils down to Kerry saying "do what I say, not what I do" to me. If it won't do anything for the price of gasoline now, why would it affect the price of heating oil back then?

Just like the environmentally friendly party candidate lying about owning SUV's and then saying after he was shown pictures of several of them in his driveway, "oh yeah, THOSE SUV's, my family owns them, not me". LOL

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
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post #9 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 02:20 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Re: Re: Re: More Kerry double talk?

Quote:
Originally posted by 80notch
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
Thanks for the reminder of the obvious.

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post #10 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 03:34 PM
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Re: Re: More Kerry double talk?

Quote:
Originally posted by 80notch
So you can and should expect members of the Senate to vote differently from time to time...
You would have a good point here IF it was something that only happened once or twice. Kerry, meanwhile, flops like a fish out of water.
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post #11 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 03:49 PM
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Re: Re: Re: More Kerry double talk?

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Originally posted by 99SVTour
You would have a good point here IF it was something that only happened once or twice. Kerry, meanwhile, flops like a fish out of water.
[song]They call him flipper, flipper, .... [/song]
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post #12 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 03:51 PM
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post #13 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 03:58 PM
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Re: Re: More Kerry double talk?

So, this is the official talking point from the DNC on how to handle this?
"So what"?
Well, it worked for perjury, obstruction of justice, adultery in the Oral Office, and a list of other things, including murder at Chappaquidick, so why not here?



Quote:
Originally posted by 80notch
Actually back in October of 2000 when Clinton decided to tap into the Strategic Petroleum Reserve it was to offset the ricing prices of heating oil specifically. It was not intended to affect the auto industry gas prices. So the issues are essentially seperate if your opinion holds true. If in fact as you say Kerry is taking a different stance this time, does it matter? Especially if the two reserve releases are for totally seperate issues that have nothing in common.
It is economics pure and not always simple, it can't be blamed on an administration or a singel industry. So you can and should expect members of the Senate to vote differently from time to time on releasing strategic oil reserves when they are not related to the last vote.

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post #14 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 04:05 PM
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Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
Even more flip flops!

I still saw few, if any, "flip flops" that were based on partisan politics. It looked more like when he changed his mind it was based on what the public wanted or him realizing where he made a mistake. Where as it seems Kerry has flopped on most things in a partisan manner, be it coincidence or not. Granted I dont have time now to read that entire page and/or links.
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post #15 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 99SVTour
I still saw few, if any, "flip flops" that were based on partisan politics. It looked more like when he changed his mind it was based on what the public wanted or him realizing where he made a mistake. Where as it seems Kerry has flopped on most things in a partisan manner, be it coincidence or not. Granted I dont have time now to read that entire page and/or links.

Give me a break. I can't believe you tools actually think Bush isn't the uber-politician complete with puppetmasters behind the scenes. HE IS A FREAKIN' POLITICIAN.

Let me put your ass along with 434 other people where your vote is equal to the other 434 and lets count how many times you flip-flop over the course of a 20+ year career.

You people act as if this is your first election you are voting in.

Kerry certainly has alot of flaws to quibble over, get of the fucking flip flop issue already.
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post #16 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 04:49 PM
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While you make some valid points, "I voted for it before I voted agaisnt it" jsut smacks of a Waffler.

But there are far many more potent "Targets" in Kerry's tin house of armor.


Quote:
Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
Give me a break. I can't believe you tools actually think Bush isn't the uber-politician complete with puppetmasters behind the scenes. HE IS A FREAKIN' POLITICIAN.

Let me put your ass along with 434 other people where your vote is equal to the other 434 and lets count how many times you flip-flop over the course of a 20+ year career.

You people act as if this is your first election you are voting in.

Kerry certainly has alot of flaws to quibble over, get of the fucking flip flop issue already.

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post #17 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
get of the fucking flip flop issue already.

After you sir...
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post #18 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 99SVTour
After you sir...
I didn't bring it up.

It shows the level of knowledge people have about the true issues of the election and the ignorance of the process.

But, carry on, an ignorant voter, is well, an ignorant voter.
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post #19 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 05:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
I didn't bring it up.

It shows the level of knowledge people have about the true issues of the election and the ignorance of the process.

But, carry on, an ignorant voter, is well, an ignorant voter.

I dont recall bringing it up either. You were replying to my post when you said to get off the subject but I dont recall starting this thread.
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post #20 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 05:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 99SVTour
I dont recall bringing it up either. You were replying to my post when you said to get off the subject but I dont recall starting this thread.
Now you are flip flopping.

Quote:
You would have a good point here IF it was something that only happened once or twice. Kerry, meanwhile, flops like a fish out of water.
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post #21 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
Now you are flip flopping.

I'm not running for presidente.

How did I flip flop though ?

<<< been drinking for about 2 hours now so I'm losing track of everything I've said.
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post #22 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 06:10 PM
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Re: More Kerry double talk?

Quote:
Originally posted by 90 Notch
It was reported last night on Fox that John Kerry is calling for President Bush to stop supplying the Strategic Oil Reserve to help slow the rise in gas prices. They also reported that when Clinton was asked to do the same thing during his term that Kerry was one of the outspoken Senators who said that idea was unwise and the effect on gas prices from doing that would be "negligible".

I don't have quotes, I don't know if it was some senate vote, if it was just a speech at a public forum or what, but wouldn't it be priceless to have Kerry double speaking again when it suits his political agenda. If it is true, isn't that the epitome of partisan double talk to have one position when it is your party in the Oval office but have the opposite position when your opponent is in office?
Most of the Democrats did beat up on Bush about the Strategic Oil Reserve, but Kerry was actually against it. I happened to catch the article, since they thought it was strange he was going AGAINST the other Democrats
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post #23 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 09:17 PM
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FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: May 12, 2004
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There are currently 77 ethanol plants in operation in the United States, with dozens more in various stages of development and construction. In 2003, the U.S. ethanol industry produced 2.81 billion gallons of the renewable fuel, up from 2.12 billion gallons the previous year. This year, the industry’s capacity and output is expected to eclipse three billion gallons.
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post #24 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 11:21 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
Give me a break. I can't believe you tools actually think Bush isn't the uber-politician complete with puppetmasters behind the scenes. HE IS A FREAKIN' POLITICIAN.

Let me put your ass along with 434 other people where your vote is equal to the other 434 and lets count how many times you flip-flop over the course of a 20+ year career.

You people act as if this is your first election you are voting in.

Kerry certainly has alot of flaws to quibble over, get of the fucking flip flop issue already.
First of all, clarify who you are calling a tool.

Second, your fence straddling is wearing thin. Trying to argue both sides simply because you can is tantamount to Kerry wavering for his own political gain. I guess you get some pleasure in trying to be the person who can argue both sides without ever taking a firm stance based upon a strong personal conviction. I have been around people who use this tactic and usually they are very shallow and lack self confidence, there are exceptions and you may be one, who knows.

I disagree whole heartedly that just because you have been in public office that you have to vote on both sides of every issue. I have been on appointed city commissions, elected boards, and many panels that have to decide policy. You can be consistent and hold true to your values over long periods of time.

I have not once spoken out about Kerry being Catholic and publicly speaking about his support of abortion. This is one area I think his personal position has been put aside and he is actually representing his very liberal constituents.

I have never said Bush is perfect, but I have said it and will continue to say it, he is by far the best candidate we have available for President, hands down IMO. Of course he is a politician, and his decisions to go ahead and make a Homeland Security Agency after at first refusing is actually a strong point for him IMO. It was necessary and he changed his mind for the betterment of the country. He did not change his position solely based upon whether or not it would benefit him politically. He did it because it was the right thing to do. If you can't see the difference between a president having to make those types of decisions and a senator from one of the smallest states in the country changing his mind on hundreds of topics then you are choosing sides with the same partisanship you try so hard to not have.

So no, I am not going to get over the flip flop issue, thank you very much. In fact, only a Kerry supporter would want anyone to "get over" an issue that shows Kerry for what he really is.

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post #25 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 11:24 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Re: More Kerry double talk?

Quote:
Originally posted by reef93gt
Most of the Democrats did beat up on Bush about the Strategic Oil Reserve, but Kerry was actually against it. I happened to catch the article, since they thought it was strange he was going AGAINST the other Democrats

Funny, I saw a tape of Kerry in a political speech he made 2 days ago calling on Bush to stop supplying the Stragetic Oil reserve. Are you saying he has changed his opinion again recently?

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post #26 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 07:18 AM
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Re: Re: Re: More Kerry double talk?

Quote:
Originally posted by 90 Notch
Funny, I saw a tape of Kerry in a political speech he made 2 days ago calling on Bush to stop supplying the Stragetic Oil reserve. Are you saying he has changed his opinion again recently?
Anything is possible, but the article I read stated that all the Democrats were beating up on Bush about the Gas Prices, but that Kerry had a different stand than the rest, and he did not support the plan to deplete the Strategic Oil reserve. I read it on one of the Yahoo news clip where they link to something else. If I see it again I'll post a link. But if the man changed his stand already I wouldn't be suprised.
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post #27 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 07:38 AM
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Here is the story from Yahoo, where he is calling for him not to stop supplying the reserve, but to divert some of the gas from going into it thus into the daily supply


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor..._congress_dc_3
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post #28 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 90 Notch
First of all, clarify who you are calling a tool.

Second, your fence straddling is wearing thin. Trying to argue both sides simply because you can is tantamount to Kerry wavering for his own political gain. I guess you get some pleasure in trying to be the person who can argue both sides without ever taking a firm stance based upon a strong personal conviction. I have been around people who use this tactic and usually they are very shallow and lack self confidence, there are exceptions and you may be one, who knows.

I disagree whole heartedly that just because you have been in public office that you have to vote on both sides of every issue. I have been on appointed city commissions, elected boards, and many panels that have to decide policy. You can be consistent and hold true to your values over long periods of time.

I have not once spoken out about Kerry being Catholic and publicly speaking about his support of abortion. This is one area I think his personal position has been put aside and he is actually representing his very liberal constituents.

I have never said Bush is perfect, but I have said it and will continue to say it, he is by far the best candidate we have available for President, hands down IMO. Of course he is a politician, and his decisions to go ahead and make a Homeland Security Agency after at first refusing is actually a strong point for him IMO. It was necessary and he changed his mind for the betterment of the country. He did not change his position solely based upon whether or not it would benefit him politically. He did it because it was the right thing to do. If you can't see the difference between a president having to make those types of decisions and a senator from one of the smallest states in the country changing his mind on hundreds of topics then you are choosing sides with the same partisanship you try so hard to not have.

So no, I am not going to get over the flip flop issue, thank you very much. In fact, only a Kerry supporter would want anyone to "get over" an issue that shows Kerry for what he really is.
Baaahhhhaaa.....

What I'm for is fair comparison. Which again, I will state, Bush will come out ahead.

What I like to dispel is the ignorance of the people that listen to the talking heads on the radio and continue to spew their rhetoric as the actual facts.

Again you show your ignorance of the subject. To try and compare local politics to that of national politics. Then you decide to put some weight behind your arguments to discredit me by telling the world of your illustrious appointments to appointed and elected boards and commissions.

Guess what Notch, I'll put my local service against yours any day of the week. You pick, appointed or elected, or both. P&Z, Adjustments, 4A, 4B, City Council, Charter Commission... name it and we'll compare. The was a reason I chose to stop posting over a month ago and start posting on May 16th. Some people on this board know the reason. If you know your local politics you can infer the reason. Yes, it was quite a successful time.

So, how many Kerry flip flops are we talking over the course of thousands of votes?

We'll start with one, the appropriations for reconstruction on Iraq and Afghanistan, the one I hear alot of. Give me the highlights of the bill the was originally voted for, then the bill that was voted against and why Kerry voted for one and against the other.

If you can do that, you will see why this wasn't a flip flop but actually a strong stance against something else. Until you can do that, you are just a talking head spewing the right-wing rhetoric you and your talking heads love to do.

In closing, I certainly do not sit on the fence. I've actually stated in the past two weeks I'm voting for Bush. Certainly, you don't consider that sitting on the fence. But I will continue to attack people like you that look at the surface and never put your head down in the water to see what is really going on.

Again, I will state Bush is a politician that flips-flops just as much as any Senator does. There are many reasons to vote for Bush over Kerry and to try and say, "I'm voting for Bush because he doesn't flip-flop and Kerry does" shows the ignorance of the person making the statements.
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post #29 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 08:09 AM
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post #30 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 09:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra


In closing, I certainly do not sit on the fence. I've actually stated in the past two weeks I'm voting for Bush. Certainly, you don't consider that sitting on the fence. But I will continue to attack people like you that look at the surface and never put your head down in the water to see what is really going on.


I thought you were against Bush a while back? What swayed the change? Just curious? Maybe I was thinking of someone else...
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post #31 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by WhtEdge
I thought you were against Bush a while back? What swayed the change? Just curious? Maybe I was thinking of someone else...
Actually, I hadn't made up my mind until a couple of weeks ago. Voting wise, since 1980 (first time I could vote), I've always voted and actively supported Republicans for office. If there was a viable alternative to these two I certainly would highly consider the option. Unlike some here that have blind-faith.

What I'm against is the blind faith sprinkled with "i don't support everything he does" rhetoric that gets constantly spewed ad nueseam in this forum. Sort of like a racist that says, "I'm not racist because I have a friend that is black". Because I defend a candidate doesn't mean I support him. It means I'm for fair comparison. Which, at least at this point, Bush will win the comparison.

But not because Kerry support then didn't support things like the 87 billion dollar appropriation bill for Iraq and Afghaniland. There was a specific reason he turn-coated on the issue, because of something that was/wasnt included between the two versions. The fact is it had nothing to do with the actual 87 billion dollars.

I'll wait to have 90Notch fill you in on the flip-flop since he is so up on national politics and has such the track record in local politics. He obviously knows the game like the back of his hand.

If you notice of late, you see either side slamming the other, without any support their actual candidate. Kerry Sucks, So Vote For Bush. Bush Sucks, So Vote For Kerry.

Once again we have a thread talking about flip-flops of a candidate, when BOTH candidates will compromise when the situation fits their need. Of course, when Bush does it, he does it for the good of the world. When Kerry does it, he wants to get elected. Total bullshit.
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post #32 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 10:00 AM
 
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: More Kerry double talk?

Quote:
Originally posted by 90 Notch
Thanks for the reminder of the obvious.
When you made the quote above it was after I had said, "everyone is entitled to their own opinion" which was a play on words. I have seen a lot of posts in this forum always denouncing anyone who states something and has no source from which to site it. When you led in, you forgot to mention "IMO" because no one could site where Kerry had actually changed positions. I'm not arguing for Kerry or Bush on this thread, just for separating fact from fiction
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post #33 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 10:11 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
Actually, I hadn't made up my mind until a couple of weeks ago. Voting wise, since 1980 (first time I could vote), I've always voted and actively supported Republicans for office. If there was a viable alternative to these two I certainly would highly consider the option. Unlike some here that have blind-faith.

What I'm against is the blind faith sprinkled with "i don't support everything he does" rhetoric that gets constantly spewed ad nueseam in this forum. Sort of like a racist that says, "I'm not racist because I have a friend that is black". Because I defend a candidate doesn't mean I support him. It means I'm for fair comparison. Which, at least at this point, Bush will win the comparison.

But not because Kerry support then didn't support things like the 87 billion dollar appropriation bill for Iraq and Afghaniland. There was a specific reason he turn-coated on the issue, because of something that was/wasnt included between the two versions. The fact is it had nothing to do with the actual 87 billion dollars.

I'll wait to have 90Notch fill you in on the flip-flop since he is so up on national politics and has such the track record in local politics. He obviously knows the game like the back of his hand.

If you notice of late, you see either side slamming the other, without any support their actual candidate. Kerry Sucks, So Vote For Bush. Bush Sucks, So Vote For Kerry.

Once again we have a thread talking about flip-flops of a candidate, when BOTH candidates will compromise when the situation fits their need. Of course, when Bush does it, he does it for the good of the world. When Kerry does it, he wants to get elected. Total bullshit.
Best quote I have read in a while. I agree especially with the compromise portion. If we didn't have politicians who could reach a compromise, diplomacy and debates would most certainly cease or fail and our government as we know it would loose its power.
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post #34 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 10:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
Actually, I hadn't made up my mind until a couple of weeks ago. Voting wise, since 1980 (first time I could vote), I've always voted and actively supported Republicans for office. If there was a viable alternative to these two I certainly would highly consider the option. Unlike some here that have blind-faith.

What I'm against is the blind faith sprinkled with "i don't support everything he does" rhetoric that gets constantly spewed ad nueseam in this forum. Sort of like a racist that says, "I'm not racist because I have a friend that is black". Because I defend a candidate doesn't mean I support him. It means I'm for fair comparison. Which, at least at this point, Bush will win the comparison.

But not because Kerry support then didn't support things like the 87 billion dollar appropriation bill for Iraq and Afghaniland. There was a specific reason he turn-coated on the issue, because of something that was/wasnt included between the two versions. The fact is it had nothing to do with the actual 87 billion dollars.

I'll wait to have 90Notch fill you in on the flip-flop since he is so up on national politics and has such the track record in local politics. He obviously knows the game like the back of his hand.

If you notice of late, you see either side slamming the other, without any support their actual candidate. Kerry Sucks, So Vote For Bush. Bush Sucks, So Vote For Kerry.

Once again we have a thread talking about flip-flops of a candidate, when BOTH candidates will compromise when the situation fits their need. Of course, when Bush does it, he does it for the good of the world. When Kerry does it, he wants to get elected. Total bullshit.

That's cool. I was not referring to the flip flop issue in case you were wondering. I am one to vote for the person, the stance on certain things. I cannot stand all the trash talking from people who say Bush sucks, Kerry flip flops blah blah........ Honestly, I don't like either Bush or Kerry. I probably would not like another candidate since I tend not to like politicians in general but what other choice do I have. The reason for my previous questions was b/c I thought I remember you stating some specific reasons you did not stand behind Bush. I think it was his parties spending or something along those lines....Just curious what new info, etc. swayed your stance. I am not saying you are flip flopping so I hope you did not take my questions as that.
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post #35 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by WhtEdge
That's cool. I was not referring to the flip flop issue in case you were wondering. I am one to vote for the person, the stance on certain things. I cannot stand all the trash talking from people who say Bush sucks, Kerry flip flops blah blah........ Honestly, I don't like either Bush or Kerry. I probably would not like another candidate since I tend not to like politicians in general but what other choice do I have. The reason for my previous questions was b/c I thought I remember you stating some specific reasons you did not stand behind Bush. I think it was his parties spending or something along those lines....Just curious what new info, etc. swayed your stance. I am not saying you are flip flopping so I hope you did not take my questions as that.
No problem. I didn't think you were trying to insinuate such. Kerry got his faults, Bush has his.

Certainly the 20%+ growth (non-defense descrentionary spending) in government during this administration is absurd. Especially when dolling out the tax cut they did.

But, me think it would be alot worse under a Kerry regime (tax increase + spending increase!).

If you are going to sellout the US in the long term, might as well give us some money back in the short term!
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post #36 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 11:07 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
No problem. I didn't think you were trying to insinuate such. Kerry got his faults, Bush has his.

Certainly the 20%+ growth (non-defense descrentionary spending) in government during this administration is absurd. Especially when dolling out the tax cut they did.

But, me think it would be alot worse under a Kerry regime (tax increase + spending increase!).

If you are going to sellout the US in the long term, might as well give us some money back in the short term!
Pardon me if I seem ignorant on politics to a certain extent. I don't get all that deep into the issue and have not spent a lot of time researching things to make strong claims and what not.

What do you mean by sellout the US in the long term?

I can understand raising taxes since something has to be done about the debt. but I also feel more responsible gov. spending would/ is the key factor. I think if taxes are raised so would the gov. spending. I don't want to pay more in taxes by any means. I think the gov. is in such a cluster f*ck now more than ever. Is this 20%+ spending an attempt to increase the economy situation?
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post #37 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by WhtEdge
Pardon me if I seem ignorant on politics to a certain extent. I don't get all that deep into the issue and have not spent a lot of time researching things to make strong claims and what not.

What do you mean by sellout the US in the long term?

I can understand raising taxes since something has to be done about the debt. but I also feel more responsible gov. spending would/ is the key factor. I think if taxes are raised so would the gov. spending. I don't want to pay more in taxes by any means. I think the gov. is in such a cluster f*ck now more than ever. Is this 20%+ spending an attempt to increase the economy situation?
What I mean by selling out the US long term is continuing to add debt to the pile that will eventually need to be paid back. Sure the government can print more money (as it does!), but each time it prints it will devalue the dollar a little more, which means you have to print more money, which devalues it a little more, which means you need a larger pile of money... in simple terms.

2002,2003 and 2004 were three of the 5 largest annual increases in the last 40 years (place 3,4,5). The only President in the last 40 years to have larger increases was Johnson. The average over the past 40 years was a 1.7% increase. In 2002 it was 10.3, in 2003 it was 9.7% and 2004 it was 8.3%.

Of course, the war on terror has increased spending, but this administration has done little to restrain nondefense spending to offset the increase in the war on terror. Now, ask your school district how much more money they get from the Federal government, oops they get less. Ask the cities how much more money they get from the Federal government, oops they get less. And on and on and on.

This administration certainly needs to forfiet any claim of fiscal responsibility. It's not just the administration, but congress as well. They've failed the American public by not pulling in the administration's spending, then adding their spending on top of it.
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post #38 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 11:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
What I mean by selling out the US long term is continuing to add debt to the pile that will eventually need to be paid back. Sure the government can print more money (as it does!), but each time it prints it will devalue the dollar a little more, which means you have to print more money, which devalues it a little more, which means you need a larger pile of money... in simple terms.

2002,2003 and 2004 were three of the 5 largest annual increases in the last 40 years (place 3,4,5). The only President in the last 40 years to have larger increases was Johnson. The average over the past 40 years was a 1.7% increase. In 2002 it was 10.3, in 2003 it was 9.7% and 2004 it was 8.3%.

Of course, the war on terror has increased spending, but this administration has done little to restrain nondefense spending to offset the increase in the war on terror. Now, ask your school district how much more money they get from the Federal government, oops they get less. Ask the cities how much more money they get from the Federal government, oops they get less. And on and on and on.

This administration certainly needs to forfiet any claim of fiscal responsibility. It's not just the administration, but congress as well. They've failed the American public by not pulling in the administration's spending, then adding their spending on top of it.
I hear ya. I know severl teachers and they can support what you said on the lack of gov. support. I also am feeling the pain. I am paying for all my tuition and now tuition rates have gone up since the gov. no longer regulates them. So, do you think the Bush adminstration would continue or help continue this trend or would the Democrats be the lesser of the two evils? With the media and all the shit tossing between parties I really don't know what to think. I do know I am not happy with what Bush has done
(another thread in itself) and fear it may continue but then agan would Kerry be any better. Hell, guess I may flip a coin when I vote. Just kidding.
~
Now, on this Kerry flip flop thing... if a politician changes his mind b/c he or she has new information to make a better informed decision I am all for that within a limit of course. I have thought one way and change my mind b/c of something else I have learned or a situation. I am not so sure what or if Kerry has flip flopped on some issues. I think the media plays a large role into feeding certain things and all honesty I have not had time to really research Kerry's claims and decisions. I bet a lot of people have not dug to the truth (if there is such a thing) about the candidates but just like to spout things out they are not fully informed about b/c they have that blind faith as was said. Aw, who knows. Politics just sucks and I can only hope that the best man for the job comes out on top.
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post #39 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 10:51 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
Baaahhhhaaa.....

What I'm for is fair comparison. Which again, I will state, Bush will come out ahead.

What I like to dispel is the ignorance of the people that listen to the talking heads on the radio and continue to spew their rhetoric as the actual facts.

Again you show your ignorance of the subject. To try and compare local politics to that of national politics. Then you decide to put some weight behind your arguments to discredit me by telling the world of your illustrious appointments to appointed and elected boards and commissions.

Guess what Notch, I'll put my local service against yours any day of the week. You pick, appointed or elected, or both. P&Z, Adjustments, 4A, 4B, City Council, Charter Commission... name it and we'll compare. The was a reason I chose to stop posting over a month ago and start posting on May 16th. Some people on this board know the reason. If you know your local politics you can infer the reason. Yes, it was quite a successful time.

So, how many Kerry flip flops are we talking over the course of thousands of votes?

We'll start with one, the appropriations for reconstruction on Iraq and Afghanistan, the one I hear alot of. Give me the highlights of the bill the was originally voted for, then the bill that was voted against and why Kerry voted for one and against the other.

If you can do that, you will see why this wasn't a flip flop but actually a strong stance against something else. Until you can do that, you are just a talking head spewing the right-wing rhetoric you and your talking heads love to do.

In closing, I certainly do not sit on the fence. I've actually stated in the past two weeks I'm voting for Bush. Certainly, you don't consider that sitting on the fence. But I will continue to attack people like you that look at the surface and never put your head down in the water to see what is really going on.

Again, I will state Bush is a politician that flips-flops just as much as any Senator does. There are many reasons to vote for Bush over Kerry and to try and say, "I'm voting for Bush because he doesn't flip-flop and Kerry does" shows the ignorance of the person making the statements.
So if I find someone who has more political background than you will they have more weight or credibility than you? You resort to the old "my brother can beat up your brother" tactic trying to impress with vague references to things. I only mentioned mine for a basis of my knowledge, not to purport to be the resident expert as you do. My point is that I do not come from a background of no knowledge, I do have more than most. I am no expert, and neither are you.

I have no idea what you are talking about as far as the local politics issue is concerned. Maybe it is some Dallas situation for which I could not care less. Dallas and Dallas County are the cesspools of politics. If you are part of the last decade or so of that political situation you only lessen your credibility IMO.

This is the first post I have seen that you actually took a solid stance for one candidate over another. Why is it that you can decide to vote for Bush and it was after much thought and deliberation but I am some boob who just supported Bush for no reason? You can do better than that, pretty obvious point, tell me you didn't miss it.

You choose one topic for pointing out that Kerry did not flip flop. I still disagree, since my basic belief is that Kerry is not truthful. He has spoken his mind when asked questions and then when a little research is done, uh oh his handlers have to spin the spoken answer for what he has a history of voting for in the past.

As far as fence straddling, at least your admitting to it until the last two weeks when you finally chose the candidate I have been supporting all along. Forgive me for not seeing the post where you chose Bush just within the last 2 weeks. LOL

Yeah, keep on attacking me for coming to the same decision you did, only your decision was informed and mine wasn't, right? And you accuse me of having my head in the water? Your head must have been in the water a little too long and you didn't get enough air. LOL

I love the attempt to spin my point of Kerry flip flopping into being the only reason that I am voting for Bush. Remember me, the one who has been a supporter of Bush long before Kerry was the Democratic candidate, not just the last two weeks?

You must be rusty having been wherever you were, try again.

BTW, welcome aboard the Bush train. There is more than enough room.

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post #40 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 11:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 90 Notch
So if I find someone who has more political background than you will they have more weight or credibility than you? You resort to the old "my brother can beat up your brother" tactic trying to impress with vague references to things. I only mentioned mine for a basis of my knowledge, not to purport to be the resident expert as you do. My point is that I do not come from a background of no knowledge, I do have more than most. I am no expert, and neither are you.
You brought it up not me. LMAO on the resident expert. Compared to you, I most assuredly am.

Quote:

I have no idea what you are talking about as far as the local politics issue is concerned. Maybe it is some Dallas situation for which I could not care less. Dallas and Dallas County are the cesspools of politics. If you are part of the last decade or so of that political situation you only lessen your credibility IMO.
No, Collin County. But, then again, I'm sure you were part of local politics in the last decade or so.

Quote:

This is the first post I have seen that you actually took a solid stance for one candidate over another. Why is it that you can decide to vote for Bush and it was after much thought and deliberation but I am some boob who just supported Bush for no reason? You can do better than that, pretty obvious point, tell me you didn't miss it.
I've posted it many times over the past month.

Quote:

You choose one topic for pointing out that Kerry did not flip flop. I still disagree, since my basic belief is that Kerry is not truthful. He has spoken his mind when asked questions and then when a little research is done, uh oh his handlers have to spin the spoken answer for what he has a history of voting for in the past.
I see you don't know the reason. It is ok to be ignorant of the subject Notch. Just admit it. Oh yea, pick up a newspaper once and awhile, maybe some do a little research. Talking heads on radio don't count.

Quote:

As far as fence straddling, at least your admitting to it until the last two weeks when you finally chose the candidate I have been supporting all along. Forgive me for not seeing the post where you chose Bush just within the last 2 weeks. LOL

Yeah, keep on attacking me for coming to the same decision you did, only your decision was informed and mine wasn't, right? And you accuse me of having my head in the water? Your head must have been in the water a little too long and you didn't get enough air. LOL
I've owned your ass so many times Notch, you don't even know it anymore. But don't ask me, let the other posters on this site tell you as well.

Quote:

I love the attempt to spin my point of Kerry flip flopping into being the only reason that I am voting for Bush. Remember me, the one who has been a supporter of Bush long before Kerry was the Democratic candidate, not just the last two weeks?

You must be rusty having been wherever you were, try again.

BTW, welcome aboard the Bush train. There is more than enough room.
Again, you have been owned terribly once again. Sorry, I was on the Reagan train, Bush train, Dole Train and Bush trains. You aren't welcoming me back to shit.
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post #41 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 11:20 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
You brought it up not me. LMAO on the resident expert. Compared to you, I most assuredly am.



No, Collin County. But, then again, I'm sure you were part of local politics in the last decade or so.



I've posted it many times over the past month.



I see you don't know the reason. It is ok to be ignorant of the subject Notch. Just admit it. Oh yea, pick up a newspaper once and awhile, maybe some do a little research. Talking heads on radio don't count.



I've owned your ass so many times Notch, you don't even know it anymore. But don't ask me, let the other posters on this site tell you as well.



Again, you have been owned terribly once again. Sorry, I was on the Reagan train, Bush train, Dole Train and Bush trains. You aren't welcoming me back to shit.
OK, you say you have owned me, so it must be true, because you are the only one who counts in every area you venture into.

I keep track of the local politics here in Tarrant County that interest me, and I have lots of interests, Collin County is not one of them.

I see you got flustered and started name calling and using foul language. You are either drunk again or I got you more than I thought. You have been on the same train for so long, maybe you should have been less partisan, because your hostility is more reminiscent of a liberal than a life long Republican. Hell, even I voted for Clinton in the '92 election since I had a well thought out out opposition to a Republican and voted my conscience, not my party. Once again you speak like you are a swing voter when in reality you are a straight line party man. And to think I had you admitting you were a fence straddler when you knew you weren't one. LOL

The blatant request for your followers to respond and help validate you is also a new low for you. //shakes head in disapointment//

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post #42 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 90 Notch
OK, you say you have owned me, so it must be true, because you are the only one who counts in every area you venture into.

I keep track of the local politics here in Tarrant County that interest me, and I have lots of interests, Collin County is not one of them.

I see you got flustered and started name calling and using foul language. You are either drunk again or I got you more than I thought. You have been on the same train for so long, maybe you should have been less partisan, because your hostility is more reminiscent of a liberal than a life long Republican. Hell, even I voted for Clinton in the '92 election since I had a well thought out out opposition to a Republican and voted my conscience, not my party. Once again you speak like you are a swing voter when in reality you are a straight line party man. And to think I had you admitting you were a fence straddler when you knew you weren't one. LOL

The blatant request for your followers to respond and help validate you is also a new low for you. //shakes head in disapointment//
Hey, put up for a vote, 90Notch.

I'll place a poll up. We'll let the posters on the site decide. Whoever loses doesn't post anymore. Game?

Or will you decide to put the tail between the legs?
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post #43 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 11:39 PM
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kerry, proven lier

John Kerry has been a proven lier and may have started in Vietnam. it's a fact, he lied about one of his purple hearts, there was no enemy fire, he used that same lie to exit Vietnam, he lied to congress about the winter soldier testimony, he lied to both wives, and his church. His lies will never stop and they wern't because of misinformation.
How can 4 months in vietnam make you capable to lead the free world. That's all Kerry basis his proof of abilitys on.
some of Kerrys stands:
NO on mandatory prison terms for crimes involving firearms
NO on requiring schools to allow voluntary prayer
NO on deducting Social Security payments on income taxes
NO on allowing Roth IRAs for retirees
NO on allowing personal retirement accounts
NO on Educational Savings Accounts
NO on more penalties for gun & drug violations
YES-- Democratic Party shouldn't be for the NRA
NO on eliminating the marriage penalty
NO on across-the-board spending cut
NO on requiring super-majority for raising taxes
NO on cutting taxes by $1.35 trillion over 11 years

http://www.issues2000.org/Senate/Joh...enateMatch.htm
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post #44 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 11:46 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
Hey, put up for a vote, 90Notch.

I'll place a poll up. We'll let the posters on the site decide. Whoever loses doesn't post anymore. Game?

Or will you decide to put the tail between the legs?
I guy with 7700+ posts wants to post a poll against a guy who has 2000+ posts?

Find me someone who has been on this board to post 7700 times and they can't win that poll and I wll join in the call to ban the 7700 poster. Man, you are getting desperate. Calling for polls on such a no brainer, man you really went out on a limb on that one, huh?

You have used this tactic just like I have, only when the outcome is predetermined. If I ever ask you to post a poll on a topic that we disagree upon for banishment, tread very lightly, you are walking into a trap. And it may not be as obvious as your's was.

No thanks on the banning offer, I am having too much fun on this site. I just wish I had more time to research and punk out the libs more often.

But if it makes you feel like a man, do it. I would find lots of humor in how pathetic it would be.

Like I said, glad to have you on the Bush train, so loosen up dude. Put some ice in the cup, pour your beverage of choice and relax. Getting this upset can cause so much stress that you take years off your life. LOL

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post #45 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 11:49 PM
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Now here is someone you can trust.

GWB:

Changed license in 1995 to avoid DUI arrest disclosure
Bush took one step to keep [his drunk driving arrest] under wraps in March 1995, when his driver’s license number was changed. MSNBC.com first reported this in August 1999. At the time, MSNBC’s sources said that Bush got his license number changed because he was worried about an arrest record surfacing. “He has an arrest record that has to do with drinking,” a source said then. “He’s worried it will come out, but his handlers keep assuring him it won’t.” The allegation was not disclosed by MSNBC.com at the time because the arrest could not be confirmed.
Also in August 1999, the Texas Department of Motor Vehicles told MSNBC.com that changing one’s driver’s license number was “highly unusual” and that it is done only when the holder of the license can prove that someone is using the license number for illegal activities. Repeated calls to Bush at the time were unanswered, until [they stated] Bush’s license number was changed for “security measures.” He declined to comment further.

Source: MSNBC.com Nov 4, 2000
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post #46 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 11:51 PM Thread Starter
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Re: kerry, proven lier

Quote:
Originally posted by jyro
John Kerry has been a proven lier and may have started in Vietnam. it's a fact, he lied about one of his purple hearts, there was no enemy fire, he used that same lie to exit Vietnam, he lied to congress about the winter soldier testimony, he lied to both wives, and his church. His lies will never stop and they wern't because of misinformation.
How can 4 months in vietnam make you capable to lead the free world. That's all Kerry basis his proof of abilitys on.
some of Kerrys stands:
NO on mandatory prison terms for crimes involving firearms
NO on requiring schools to allow voluntary prayer
NO on deducting Social Security payments on income taxes
NO on allowing Roth IRAs for retirees
NO on allowing personal retirement accounts
NO on Educational Savings Accounts
NO on more penalties for gun & drug violations
YES-- Democratic Party shouldn't be for the NRA
NO on eliminating the marriage penalty
NO on across-the-board spending cut
NO on requiring super-majority for raising taxes
NO on cutting taxes by $1.35 trillion over 11 years

http://www.issues2000.org/Senate/Joh...enateMatch.htm
I agree with some of what you are trying to say, but I disagree on the lying to the church. He has actually done the right thing as an elected official by voting for his constituents in spite of his reported personal and religious conviction that abortion is wrong. Personally, I couldn't and wouldn't sell my soul for the power, but he has actually been consistent on that one point as far as I can tell.

One
Big
Ass
Mistake
America

If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
Robert A. Heinlein

I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
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post #47 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 11:52 PM
No Cerveza... No Trabajo
 
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Where's my beer?
Posts: 21,924
Quote:
Originally posted by 90 Notch

No thanks on the banning offer, I am having too much fun on this site. I just wish I had more time to research and punk out the libs more often.

But if it makes you feel like a man, do it. I would find lots of humor in how pathetic it would be.

Like I said, glad to have you on the Bush train, so loosen up dude. Put some ice in the cup, pour your beverage of choice and relax. Getting this upset can cause so much stress that you take years off your life. LOL
I see once again, you won't step up to the plate. That's ok 90Notch, the world needs followers as well.

I will guarantee you I did more to get ALL Bush family members elected than you will ever do. Again, move to the back of the train.
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post #48 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 11:52 PM
Horsepower Extractor
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Welding in shorts and a t-shirt.
Posts: 4,738
Look at 01WhiteCobra getting his tie-die'd panties in a wad!!
66Deuce is offline  
post #49 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 11:54 PM
No Cerveza... No Trabajo
 
01WhiteCobra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Where's my beer?
Posts: 21,924
Quote:
Originally posted by 66Deuce
Look at 01WhiteCobra getting his tie-die'd panties in a wad!!
Cool, the one Notch supporter is back.

Do y'all give each other reach arounds?
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post #50 of 134 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 11:54 PM Thread Starter
Lifer
 
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Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Fort Worth
Posts: 14,842
Quote:
Originally posted by 01WhiteCobra
Now here is someone you can trust.

GWB:

Changed license in 1995 to avoid DUI arrest disclosure
Bush took one step to keep [his drunk driving arrest] under wraps in March 1995, when his driver’s license number was changed. MSNBC.com first reported this in August 1999. At the time, MSNBC’s sources said that Bush got his license number changed because he was worried about an arrest record surfacing. “He has an arrest record that has to do with drinking,” a source said then. “He’s worried it will come out, but his handlers keep assuring him it won’t.” The allegation was not disclosed by MSNBC.com at the time because the arrest could not be confirmed.
Also in August 1999, the Texas Department of Motor Vehicles told MSNBC.com that changing one’s driver’s license number was “highly unusual” and that it is done only when the holder of the license can prove that someone is using the license number for illegal activities. Repeated calls to Bush at the time were unanswered, until [they stated] Bush’s license number was changed for “security measures.” He declined to comment further.

Source: MSNBC.com Nov 4, 2000
Assuming that is true, he was pretty stupid for doing that. The fact that it came out so easily is evidence of that.

Oooooops, I forgot, I am suposed to say "it's all lies, liberal left wing conspiracy lies. All of it!" Sorry, had to put that in 01.

One
Big
Ass
Mistake
America

If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
Robert A. Heinlein

I have to agree with a quote from former Treasury Secretary William E. Simon: "Bad politicians are sent to Washington by good people who don't vote."
Paladin is offline  
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