is John Kerry unpatroitic? - DFWstangs Forums
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post #1 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-01-2004, 08:28 PM Thread Starter
 
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is John Kerry unpatroitic?

let's vote!
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post #2 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-01-2004, 08:34 PM
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Look at all those options! lol

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post #3 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-01-2004, 08:43 PM
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no

He is so unpatroitic that he faught in a war that killed alot of people that should not have been killed.Oh yea and after he was a war hero and came back home to his family,he went back to fight again.So I think he has the right to do what ever he wanted to with the ribbons that he put his life on the line to get.Lets see Bush pull out his medals.Oh thats right he has none,he was busy not going to the Texas Army National Guard
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post #4 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-01-2004, 08:55 PM
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Re: no

Quote:
Originally posted by mudfish
He is so unpatroitic that he faught in a war that killed alot of people that should not have been killed.Oh yea and after he was a war hero and came back home to his family,he went back to fight again.So I think he has the right to do what ever he wanted to with the ribbons that he put his life on the line to get.Lets see Bush pull out his medals.Oh thats right he has none,he was busy not going to the Texas Army National Guard
Went back to fight, umm thats incorrect. John Kerry served for about 3 months and when he got back, he protested the war with Fonda. Also, Bush was in the "Air National Guard."

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post #5 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-01-2004, 09:06 PM
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Well all I can say is his 3 months in hell were more than you or I can say we did,and he was in the ANG because his father was the head of the CIA at the time,and Kerrys family were not bad of either but he volunteered to go.Hey all I am saying is that he did what he did.It is not right for me to say he is un-patroitic.Like I put on the other post callling me anti-american I am neither republican,nor democratic.So call me what you will.
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post #6 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-01-2004, 09:13 PM
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What you will likely see happen in the next few months about John Kerry is that he fabricated two of his medals so he could go home to protest the war. Many soldiers when they were wounded could have received dozens of medals and gone home, but they wanted to stay and fight with their team. Check what this Vietnam vet said about Kerry on another board, you will have to scroll down a little to see it. His name is Old_Fart

http://www.protestwarrior.com/phpBB2...ic.php?t=17385

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post #7 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-01-2004, 09:17 PM Thread Starter
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by mudfish
Well all I can say is his 3 months in hell were more than you or I can say we did,and he was in the ANG because his father was the head of the CIA at the time,and Kerrys family were not bad of either but he volunteered to go.Hey all I am saying is that he did what he did.It is not right for me to say he is un-patroitic.Like I put on the other post callling me anti-american I am neither republican,nor democratic.So call me what you will.
That was a joke. Lighten up. You liberals don't know how to take a joke.
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post #8 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-01-2004, 09:31 PM
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Well i'm glad to see that you find that amusing.I told you both i'm niether R or D I just can't see how someone that did not fight in the war can talk bad about someone who did.And as for how long he was there or why he didn't want to be there is not for me to judge him.3 months in vietnam i'm sure was not like 3 months in county jail.I just want to know that my family and I are safe and families of others are safe as they should be.
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post #9 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-01-2004, 09:32 PM Thread Starter
 
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You must be french then.
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post #10 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-01-2004, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mudfish
I told you both i'm niether R or D I just can't see how someone that did not fight in the war can talk bad about someone who did.
I never accused you of being a republican or democrat.

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post #11 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-01-2004, 10:03 PM
 
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who cares

bush is going to win.
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post #12 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-05-2004, 12:56 PM
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Re: who cares

Quote:
Originally posted by fordforever
bush is going to win.
Kerry is going to win
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post #13 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-05-2004, 01:53 PM
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Re: Re: no

Quote:
Originally posted by x_redhotcobra_x
Went back to fight, umm thats incorrect. John Kerry served for about 3 months and when he got back, he protested the war with Fonda. Also, Bush was in the "Air National Guard."
He served in Vietnam any way you slice it. Bush never left the US little less saw action besides a booby bar, lmao. You know he is a self admitted womanizing drunk back then.
Yeah he served in the Air National Guard every now and again. He received a letter of reprimand for missing training and failure to repair( no being at his assigned place at the time he was supposed to be), he also requested to be removed from flight status in 72 was pulled from flight status in 73 for failing to complete his annual flight physical exam. I wonder if this was a loop hole he used? So have you ever served ?
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post #14 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-06-2004, 10:14 PM
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Kerrys CO says

A former assistant secretary of defense and Fletcher School of Diplomacy: professor, W. Scott Thompson, recalled a conversation with the late Admiral Elmo R. Zumwalt Jr. that clearly had a slightly different take on Kerry's recollection of their discussions:
"The fabled and distinguished chief of naval operations, Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, told me ...
30 years ago when he was still CNO (chief naval officer in Vietnam) that during his own command of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam, just prior to his anointment as CNO, young Kerry had created great problems for him and the other top brass, by killing so many non-combatant civilians and going after other non-military targets. "We had virtually to straitjacket him to keep him under control," the admiral said. "Bud" Zumwalt got it right when he assessed Kerry as
having large ambitions ... but promised that his career in Vietnam would haunt him if he were ever on the national stage."

John Kerrys lies to congress about the winter soldier testimony
caused all returning veterans to be shamed by the American public.
John Kerry caused the phrase "baby Killer," to be connected to
all returning American heros from the vietnam war.
Now Kerry proclaims loudly he is a decorated American hero when he is personally responsible for denying returning heros at the time,their just reward and hero status.

In Vietnam Kerry got 2 scratches and a schrapnel wound, 2
required no treatment, the schrapnel required 2 stiches, he missed 2
days service for all 3 purple hearts. he pushed all involved for all
3 knowing he would be allowed out of Vietnam after only 4 months of service there.
In December 1992 ,as chairman of the Select Senate Committee on POW/MIA Affairs, created in 1991 to investigate reports that U.S. prisoners of war and soldiers designated missing in action were still alive in Vietnam, Kerry badgered the panel into voting that no American servicemen remained in Vietnam.
Kerrys family recieved a real estate contract worth billions
when relations with Viet Nam were normalized. Hanoi announced that it had awarded Colliers International, a Boston-based real estate company, an exclusive deal to develop its commercial real estate potentially worth billions. Stuart Forbes, the CEO of Colliers, is Kerry's cousin.
Kerry continues his apologia for Vietnam's never-ending
atrocities. "Far from taking the lead on the Vietnam Human Rights
Bill, he has prevented it from coming to a vote. He claims that making an issue of Hanoi's repression would be counterproductive
Only Sen. Teddy Kennedy and Barbara Boxer have more left-wing voting records than Kerry.
Kerry has taken credit for middle-class tax cuts, child tax
credit and relief of the marriage penalty, he voted against them.
In August 1996 Kerry announced that he opposed the National
Missile Defense because North Korea was simply not a threat. Two years later North Korea fired its Tae Po Dong missile over Japan, dropping a simulated nuclear warhead off the U.S. coast.
As president Kerry would end the U.S. National Missile Defense program and seek to re-establish the useless paper treaties with the former Soviet Union and North Korea.
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post #15 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-06-2004, 11:54 PM
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Re: Kerrys CO says

Quote:
Originally posted by jyro
A former assistant secretary of defense and Fletcher School of Diplomacy: professor, W. Scott Thompson, recalled a conversation with the late Admiral Elmo R. Zumwalt Jr. that clearly had a slightly different take on Kerry's recollection of their discussions:
"The fabled and distinguished chief of naval operations, Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, told me ...
30 years ago when he was still CNO (chief naval officer in Vietnam) that during his own command of U.S. naval forces in Vietnam, just prior to his anointment as CNO, young Kerry had created great problems for him and the other top brass, by killing so many non-combatant civilians and going after other non-military targets. "We had virtually to straitjacket him to keep him under control," the admiral said. "Bud" Zumwalt got it right when he assessed Kerry as
having large ambitions ... but promised that his career in Vietnam would haunt him if he were ever on the national stage."

John Kerrys lies to congress about the winter soldier testimony
caused all returning veterans to be shamed by the American public.
John Kerry caused the phrase "baby Killer," to be connected to
all returning American heros from the vietnam war.
Now Kerry proclaims loudly he is a decorated American hero when he is personally responsible for denying returning heros at the time,their just reward and hero status.

In Vietnam Kerry got 2 scratches and a schrapnel wound, 2
required no treatment, the schrapnel required 2 stiches, he missed 2
days service for all 3 purple hearts. he pushed all involved for all
3 knowing he would be allowed out of Vietnam after only 4 months of service there.
In December 1992 ,as chairman of the Select Senate Committee on POW/MIA Affairs, created in 1991 to investigate reports that U.S. prisoners of war and soldiers designated missing in action were still alive in Vietnam, Kerry badgered the panel into voting that no American servicemen remained in Vietnam.
Kerrys family recieved a real estate contract worth billions
when relations with Viet Nam were normalized. Hanoi announced that it had awarded Colliers International, a Boston-based real estate company, an exclusive deal to develop its commercial real estate potentially worth billions. Stuart Forbes, the CEO of Colliers, is Kerry's cousin.
Kerry continues his apologia for Vietnam's never-ending
atrocities. "Far from taking the lead on the Vietnam Human Rights
Bill, he has prevented it from coming to a vote. He claims that making an issue of Hanoi's repression would be counterproductive
Only Sen. Teddy Kennedy and Barbara Boxer have more left-wing voting records than Kerry.
Kerry has taken credit for middle-class tax cuts, child tax
credit and relief of the marriage penalty, he voted against them.
In August 1996 Kerry announced that he opposed the National
Missile Defense because North Korea was simply not a threat. Two years later North Korea fired its Tae Po Dong missile over Japan, dropping a simulated nuclear warhead off the U.S. coast.
As president Kerry would end the U.S. National Missile Defense program and seek to re-establish the useless paper treaties with the former Soviet Union and North Korea.
Well now that you have informed us of everything you feel is wrong with Kerry. Tell me everything you know about Bush, please include the economy and veterans benefits. I am a disabled veteran with 50% disability so make sure you know his policies, I do.
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post #16 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-06-2004, 11:58 PM
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Re: Re: Kerrys CO says

Quote:
Originally posted by Pro Trash
Well now that you have informed us of everything you feel is wrong with Kerry. Tell me everything you know about Bush, please include the economy and veterans benefits. I am a disabled veteran with 50% disability so make sure you know his policies, I do.
that requires a loooong answer...and i'll provide that, but not right now...i have two hrs of bar time left, and i just got off work...ciao.

color=#606060]
Quote:
"The Father-heart of God was... thrilled with me -- an immature, mess-making spiritual infant... My heavenly Father was enjoying me while I was yet in the process of maturing, not sighing in disgust and waiting impatiently until I grew up. He loved and longed for me; He felt proud and was excited over me while I was falling short."
Quote:
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post #17 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-07-2004, 01:01 AM
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Re: Re: Re: Kerrys CO says

Quote:
Originally posted by HookEm
that requires a loooong answer...and i'll provide that, but not right now...i have two hrs of bar time left, and i just got off work...ciao.
Let me help you out. He lieed straight to our fucking faces as veterans when he said he'd support veterans benifits, then cut us back 15 billion over the next 10 years. Explain that hero.
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post #18 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-07-2004, 04:23 PM
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vets benefits increase

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=144

funding for veterans is going up twice as fast under Bush as it did under Clinton. And the number of veterans getting health benefits is going up 25% under Bush's budgets. That's hardly a cut.

VETERANS BENEFITS ACT OF 2003

In an Oval Office ceremony held December 16, 2003, President Bush signed H.R. 2297, the Veterans Benefits Act of 2003, a bill composed of 7 titles with 39 substantive provisions. All totaled, the new law authorizes $1 billion over the next ten years for new and expanded benefits for disabled veterans, surviving spouses, and children. As enacted, H.R. 2297, the Veterans Benefits Act of 2003:

Allows VA to provide specially adapted housing grant to severely disabled service members prior to their separation from active duty service.

Increases the specially adapted automobile grant from $9,000 to $11,000, and increase the specially adapted housing grants from $48,000 to $50,000 for the most severely disabled veterans and from $9,250 to $10,000 for less severely disabled veterans. [Applies to assistance furnished on or after the date of the enactment of this Act (December 16, 2003).]

Restores dependency and indemnity compensation (DIC), VA home loan guarantee, and education, benefit eligibility for spouses remarried after age 57, and burial eligibility for all remarried spouses. [Effective January 1, 2004. Widows who remarried prior to the date of enactment of this act and after their 57th birthdays have one year from the date of enactment in which to apply. The burial eligibility is effective for deaths which occurred on or after January 1, 2000.]

Increases monthly educational benefits for spouses and dependent children of disabled veterans from $695 to $788 for full-time study, from $522 to $592 for three-quarter time study, and from $347 to $394 for half-time study. [Effective July 1, 2004]

Expands benefits eligibility to children with spina bifida who were born to certain Vietnam-era veterans who served in Korea near the demilitarized zone.

Allows the surviving spouse or dependent children to receive the full amount of accrued benefits if the veteran dies while their claim is still pending. [Effective for deaths occurring on or after the date of enactment (December 16, 2003).]

Eliminates the 30-day requirement for POWs to qualify for presumptions of service-connection for certain disabilities: psychosis, any of the anxiety states, dysthymic disorder, organic residuals of frostbite, and post-traumatic osteoarthritis.

Expands the Montgomery GI Bill program to cover self-employment training programs of less than six months and entrepreneurship courses at approved institutions. [Takes effect on the date that is six months after the date of the enactment of this Act (December 16, 2003) and shall apply to self-employment on-job training approved and pursued on or after that date.]

Allows federal agencies to create “sole-source” contracts for disabled veteran-owned small businesses - up to $5 million for manufacturing contract awards and up to $3 million for non-manufacturing contract awards.

Allows federal agencies to restrict certain contracts to disabled veteran-owned small businesses if at least two such concerns are qualified to bid on the contract.
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post #19 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-07-2004, 08:30 PM
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Re: vets benefits increase

and yet, no response from Trash........



Quote:
Originally posted by jyro
http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=144

funding for veterans is going up twice as fast under Bush as it did under Clinton. And the number of veterans getting health benefits is going up 25% under Bush's budgets. That's hardly a cut.

VETERANS BENEFITS ACT OF 2003

In an Oval Office ceremony held December 16, 2003, President Bush signed H.R. 2297, the Veterans Benefits Act of 2003, a bill composed of 7 titles with 39 substantive provisions. All totaled, the new law authorizes $1 billion over the next ten years for new and expanded benefits for disabled veterans, surviving spouses, and children. As enacted, H.R. 2297, the Veterans Benefits Act of 2003:

Allows VA to provide specially adapted housing grant to severely disabled service members prior to their separation from active duty service.

Increases the specially adapted automobile grant from $9,000 to $11,000, and increase the specially adapted housing grants from $48,000 to $50,000 for the most severely disabled veterans and from $9,250 to $10,000 for less severely disabled veterans. [Applies to assistance furnished on or after the date of the enactment of this Act (December 16, 2003).]

Restores dependency and indemnity compensation (DIC), VA home loan guarantee, and education, benefit eligibility for spouses remarried after age 57, and burial eligibility for all remarried spouses. [Effective January 1, 2004. Widows who remarried prior to the date of enactment of this act and after their 57th birthdays have one year from the date of enactment in which to apply. The burial eligibility is effective for deaths which occurred on or after January 1, 2000.]

Increases monthly educational benefits for spouses and dependent children of disabled veterans from $695 to $788 for full-time study, from $522 to $592 for three-quarter time study, and from $347 to $394 for half-time study. [Effective July 1, 2004]

Expands benefits eligibility to children with spina bifida who were born to certain Vietnam-era veterans who served in Korea near the demilitarized zone.

Allows the surviving spouse or dependent children to receive the full amount of accrued benefits if the veteran dies while their claim is still pending. [Effective for deaths occurring on or after the date of enactment (December 16, 2003).]

Eliminates the 30-day requirement for POWs to qualify for presumptions of service-connection for certain disabilities: psychosis, any of the anxiety states, dysthymic disorder, organic residuals of frostbite, and post-traumatic osteoarthritis.

Expands the Montgomery GI Bill program to cover self-employment training programs of less than six months and entrepreneurship courses at approved institutions. [Takes effect on the date that is six months after the date of the enactment of this Act (December 16, 2003) and shall apply to self-employment on-job training approved and pursued on or after that date.]

Allows federal agencies to create “sole-source” contracts for disabled veteran-owned small businesses - up to $5 million for manufacturing contract awards and up to $3 million for non-manufacturing contract awards.

Allows federal agencies to restrict certain contracts to disabled veteran-owned small businesses if at least two such concerns are qualified to bid on the contract.

color=#606060]
Quote:
"The Father-heart of God was... thrilled with me -- an immature, mess-making spiritual infant... My heavenly Father was enjoying me while I was yet in the process of maturing, not sighing in disgust and waiting impatiently until I grew up. He loved and longed for me; He felt proud and was excited over me while I was falling short."
Quote:
Mike Bickle

[



Sober By Grace Ministries: A Ministry of The James 2:26 Project
[size=1]Where New Beginnings Start
www.soberbygrace.org
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post #20 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-08-2004, 02:39 AM
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Re: Re: vets benefits increase

Quote:
Originally posted by HookEm
and yet, no response from Trash........
I am a member of the DAV I follow VA benefits closley So please don't give the credit of the Senate who made and fought for those increases you listed to Bush . The DAV massed against him and somewhat forced his hand and we are still back stepping from his cuts. Three VA medical centers will be closed on the east coast this month, never to open again. I wait an average of 3 -5 months for appointments at the VA I used to only wait 3 -6 weeks. So call the VA here in Dallas and ask to talk with the DAV who is not Rep. or Dem. and ask their take on the current administrations handling of the Vets Benefits.
This is what Bush wants to happen

Bush administration's budget has called for a $15-billion, 10-year reduction in veterans benefits, such as compensation, pensions and educational assistance. The cuts in veterans benefits, along with hundreds of billions in cuts to other domestic programs, would be made to accommodate the $726 billion tax break (mostly for dividend income) that President Bush wants.


In the past year, the VA has already directed its offices to stop advertising services because demands for care have outstripped funding. Then the VA stopped accepting new enrollments for veterans who didn't meet criteria for low income or for service-connected disability. VA health care is stretched so thin that thousands of veterans wait six months or more for appointments at VA clinics across the country.


This is troubling particularly in wartime, across-the-board cuts in veterans services are unconscionable. Soldiers in Iraq today will need health care, pensions and disability compensation. This nation must fulfill its obligations to the men and women who have served in America's armed forces.


When you hear your U.S. senator or representative voicing support for American troops. Ask what he (or she) will do to support American veterans, a group that will soon include the forces of Operation Iraqi Freedom.
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post #21 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-08-2004, 02:59 AM
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Funding for Veterans up 27%, But Democrats Call It A Cut

In Bush’s first three years funding for the Veterans Administration increased 27%. And if Bush's 2005 budget is approved, funding for his full four-year term will amount to an increase of 37.6%.

In the eight years of the Clinton administration the increase was 31.7%

Those figures include mandatory spending for such things as payments to veterans for service-connected disabilities, over which Congress and presidents have little control. But Bush has increased the discretionary portion of veterans funding even more than the mandatory portion has increased. Discretionary funding under Bush is up 30.2%.

By any measure, veterans funding is going up faster under Bush than under Clinton.

One reason: the number of veterans getting benefits is increasing rapidly as middle-income veterans turn for health care to the expanding network of VA clinics and its generous prescription drug benefit.

According to the VA, the number of veterans signed up to get health benefits increased by 1.1 million, or 18%, during the first two fiscal years for which Bush signed the VA appropriations bills. And the numbers continue to grow. By the end of the current fiscal year on Sept. 30, the VA estimates that the total increase under Bush's budgets will reach nearly 1.6 million veterans, an increase of 25.6 percent.

And according to the VA, the number of community health clinics has increased 40% during Bush's three years, with accompanying increases in the numbers of outpatient visits (to 51 million last year) and prescriptions filled (to 108 million).

But They Keep Repeating: "It's a Cut"

That's just the opposite of the impression one might get from listening to Democratic presidential candidates debate each other over the past several months. One thing they seem to agree on is the false idea that Bush is cutting funding for veterans.

Veterans Groups Want More

While it's false to say the veterans budget has been cut, and false to say that any veteran getting benefits has been cut off, it is true that funding is not growing as rapidly as demand for benefits, or as rapidly as veterans groups would like.

Veterans groups are unanimous in calling for more money than the administration or Congress have provided. Four groups -- AMVETS, Disabled American Veterans, Paralyzed Veterans of America, and Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States -- have joined to ask for $3.7 billion more than the administration is requesting for next year.

Even Bush's own Secretary of Veterans Affairs Anthony Principi -- in a rare break with administration protocol -- told a House committee Feb. 4 that had asked for more money than Bush was willing to seek from Congress. "I asked OMB for $1.2 billion more than I received," he said, referring to the White House Office of Management and Budget.

Some Denied Benefits; A Cut Proposed

In January, 2003 the Veterans Administration announced that -- because the increase in funds couldn't meet the rising demand -- it would start turning away many middle-income applicants applying for new medical benefits.

That led to accusations that Bush was denying benefits to veterans. " We have 400,000 veterans in this country who have been denied access in a whole category to the VA," Kerry declared during a debate Oct. 9, 2003. The VA's estimates of the number who might be denied benefits is much lower, and in fact nobody can say with certainty how many middle-income veterans might have signed up for medical benefits if they had been allowed.

Meanwhile the VA continues to add hundreds of thousands of disabled and lower-income veterans to those already receiving benefits, and has kept paying benefits to all veterans who were already receiving them.

The middle-income veterans who currently aren't being allowed to sign up are those generally with incomes above 80% of the mid-point for their locality. The means test cut-off for benefits ranges up to $40,000 a year in many cities. And any veteran with income less than $25,162 still qualifies no matter where they live. Those figures are for single veterans. The income cut-off is higher for those with a spouse or children.

Veterans groups have called for "mandatory funding" of medical benefits, which would automatically appropriate whatever funds are required to meet demand. Kerry has endorsed mandatory funding, which would allow middle-income veterans with no service-connected disability to resume signing up.

The administration also has proposed to make the VA's prescription drug benefit less generous. Currently many veterans pay $7 for each one-month supply of medication. The administration proposes to increase that to $15, and require a $250 annual fee as well. Congress rejected a similar proposal last year. The proposal wouldn't affect those -- such as veterans with a disability rated at 50% or more -- who currently aren't required to make any co-payments.

And it should be noted that the administration is proposing to increase some benefits, including ending pharmacy co-payments for some very low-income veterans, and paying for emergency-room care for veterans in non-VA hospitals.

All this means Bush can fairly be accused of trying to hold down the rapid growth in spending for veterans benefits -- particularly those sought by middle-income vets with no service-connected disability. But saying he cut the budget is contrary to fact.

(Note: FactCheck.org twice contacted the Kerry campaign asking how he justified his claim that the VA budget is being cut, but we've received no response.)


Sources



Budget of the United States Government, Fiscal Year 2005 "Table 5.2 -- Budget Authority by Agency" (Washington, Government Printing Office) 3 Feb 2004.

US House of Representatives, Committee on Veterans Affairs, “ Statement of Anthony J. Principi , Secretary Of Veterans Affairs” 4 Feb 2004.

US House of Representqatives, Committee on Veterans Affairs, “ Statement of Peter S. Gaytan, Principal Deputy Director, Veterans Affairs And Rehabilitation Division, The American Legion” 4 Feb 2004.

US House of Representqatives, Committee on Veterans Affairs “ Statement Of Joseph A. Violante , National Legislative Director, The Disabled American Veterans” 4 Feb. 2004.

US House of Representatives, Committee on Veterans Affairs “ Statement of Vietnam Veterans of America , Presented by Richard F. Weidman, Director, Government Relations” 4 Feb 2004.

Press Release , Rep. Lane Evans (D IL)"Bush administration ’05 VA budget reflects misplaced priorities, places greater burden on some veterans" 2 Feb. 2004.

Suzanne Bamboa, “Principi Wanted $1.2B More for VA Budget,” Associated Press 4 Feb. 2004.
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post #22 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-08-2004, 03:13 AM
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Re: Funding for Veterans up 27%, But Democrats Call It A Cut

Quote:
Originally posted by jyro
In Bush’s first three years funding for the Veterans Administration increased 27%. And if Bush's 2005 budget is approved, funding for his full four-year term will amount to an increase of 37.6%.

In the eight years of the Clinton administration the increase was 31.7%

Those figures include mandatory spending for such things as payments to veterans for service-connected disabilities, over which Congress and presidents have little control. But Bush has increased the discretionary portion of veterans funding even more than the mandatory portion has increased. Discretionary funding under Bush is up 30.2%.

By any measure, veterans funding is going up faster under Bush than under Clinton.

One reason: the number of veterans getting benefits is increasing rapidly as middle-income veterans turn for health care to the expanding network of VA clinics and its generous prescription drug benefit.

According to the VA, the number of veterans signed up to get health benefits increased by 1.1 million, or 18%, during the first two fiscal years for which Bush signed the VA appropriations bills. And the numbers continue to grow. By the end of the current fiscal year on Sept. 30, the VA estimates that the total increase under Bush's budgets will reach nearly 1.6 million veterans, an increase of 25.6 percent.

And according to the VA, the number of community health clinics has increased 40% during Bush's three years, with accompanying increases in the numbers of outpatient visits (to 51 million last year) and prescriptions filled (to 108 million).

But They Keep Repeating: "It's a Cut"

That's just the opposite of the impression one might get from listening to Democratic presidential candidates debate each other over the past several months. One thing they seem to agree on is the false idea that Bush is cutting funding for veterans.

Veterans Groups Want More

While it's false to say the veterans budget has been cut, and false to say that any veteran getting benefits has been cut off, it is true that funding is not growing as rapidly as demand for benefits, or as rapidly as veterans groups would like.

Veterans groups are unanimous in calling for more money than the administration or Congress have provided. Four groups -- AMVETS, Disabled American Veterans, Paralyzed Veterans of America, and Veterans of Foreign Wars of the United States -- have joined to ask for $3.7 billion more than the administration is requesting for next year.

Even Bush's own Secretary of Veterans Affairs Anthony Principi -- in a rare break with administration protocol -- told a House committee Feb. 4 that had asked for more money than Bush was willing to seek from Congress. "I asked OMB for $1.2 billion more than I received," he said, referring to the White House Office of Management and Budget.

Some Denied Benefits; A Cut Proposed

In January, 2003 the Veterans Administration announced that -- because the increase in funds couldn't meet the rising demand -- it would start turning away many middle-income applicants applying for new medical benefits.

That led to accusations that Bush was denying benefits to veterans. " We have 400,000 veterans in this country who have been denied access in a whole category to the VA," Kerry declared during a debate Oct. 9, 2003. The VA's estimates of the number who might be denied benefits is much lower, and in fact nobody can say with certainty how many middle-income veterans might have signed up for medical benefits if they had been allowed.

Meanwhile the VA continues to add hundreds of thousands of disabled and lower-income veterans to those already receiving benefits, and has kept paying benefits to all veterans who were already receiving them.

The middle-income veterans who currently aren't being allowed to sign up are those generally with incomes above 80% of the mid-point for their locality. The means test cut-off for benefits ranges up to $40,000 a year in many cities. And any veteran with income less than $25,162 still qualifies no matter where they live. Those figures are for single veterans. The income cut-off is higher for those with a spouse or children.

Veterans groups have called for "mandatory funding" of medical benefits, which would automatically appropriate whatever funds are required to meet demand. Kerry has endorsed mandatory funding, which would allow middle-income veterans with no service-connected disability to resume signing up.

The administration also has proposed to make the VA's prescription drug benefit less generous. Currently many veterans pay $7 for each one-month supply of medication. The administration proposes to increase that to $15, and require a $250 annual fee as well. Congress rejected a similar proposal last year. The proposal wouldn't affect those -- such as veterans with a disability rated at 50% or more -- who currently aren't required to make any co-payments.

And it should be noted that the administration is proposing to increase some benefits, including ending pharmacy co-payments for some very low-income veterans, and paying for emergency-room care for veterans in non-VA hospitals.

All this means Bush can fairly be accused of trying to hold down the rapid growth in spending for veterans benefits -- particularly those sought by middle-income vets with no service-connected disability. But saying he cut the budget is contrary to fact.

(Note: FactCheck.org twice contacted the Kerry campaign asking how he justified his claim that the VA budget is being cut, but we've received no response.)


Sources



Budget of the United States Government, Fiscal Year 2005 "Table 5.2 -- Budget Authority by Agency" (Washington, Government Printing Office) 3 Feb 2004.

US House of Representatives, Committee on Veterans Affairs, “ Statement of Anthony J. Principi , Secretary Of Veterans Affairs” 4 Feb 2004.

US House of Representqatives, Committee on Veterans Affairs, “ Statement of Peter S. Gaytan, Principal Deputy Director, Veterans Affairs And Rehabilitation Division, The American Legion” 4 Feb 2004.

US House of Representqatives, Committee on Veterans Affairs “ Statement Of Joseph A. Violante , National Legislative Director, The Disabled American Veterans” 4 Feb. 2004.

US House of Representatives, Committee on Veterans Affairs “ Statement of Vietnam Veterans of America , Presented by Richard F. Weidman, Director, Government Relations” 4 Feb 2004.

Press Release , Rep. Lane Evans (D IL)"Bush administration ’05 VA budget reflects misplaced priorities, places greater burden on some veterans" 2 Feb. 2004.

Suzanne Bamboa, “Principi Wanted $1.2B More for VA Budget,” Associated Press 4 Feb. 2004.
You big hairy loser you just cut and pasted that. I am a disabled VET, come over spend a few hours with me and I'll show about getting prescriptions filled and appointments made. I am not looking up quotes from the internet I live this everyday. I went into the Army at 17 without a single disability. I got out at 26, I now have a right shoulder that has two scars the measure over 4 inches each one in the front one the back, I had wrist surgery, elbow surgery, knee surgery and my nose and jaw fixed and wired together one time. I jumped from planes and marched for a living and then rode tanks, The government had no problem asking me to risk my health and I had no problem doing so. I only ask now that they return the favor when I ask for reasonable health care.
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post #23 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-08-2004, 03:15 AM
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Also this takes to much damn time going no where I'm going over to the smackatorium to really waste time.
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post #24 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-08-2004, 09:23 AM
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You went to school on the GI Bill ?

and graduated to become a teacher, you have the ability to work all summer on a second job if you wish. you have health care with your teachers job,( lacking as it is from poor state funding ) . I don't understand why you are dependant on others to supply you with what you can supply yourself from benefits you received from going to school free. If you don't make a fair living at your current job, find another or get a second job. I do thank you for your service and am sorry you had the misfortune to be injured but was healthcare one of your prime reasons for joining in the first place? Was it a sence of patriotic duty that prompted you to join? I wasn't able to join, I had broken both legs when I was 13 and when I went for a phisical during draft time they issued me a 4f. I'm no elliquent oritator like yourself and I can't spell for shit. Should I also get social benefits because of being denied service and the education you got because of your sevice, I'm not asking for anything like that. I am dependant on myself to make a living and provide things for myself within my means. I want others to have the same responsibility as I do and if you don't like the lot your given in life, strive to better your self through hard work and determination, not from being given things from the gouvernment and being a dependant of others. My son is a quadrapleagic, he has 2 businesses he started after his injury at 18. The State helped him by giving him a wheel chair and supporting him till he went to work. He makes enough that he isn't eligible for help anymore and just bought a new car with 5k down from his business he started from near nothing.
Thats what FREEDOM gets you in America. If he can do it, anyone can.
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post #25 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-08-2004, 08:34 PM
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Re: You went to school on the GI Bill ?

Quote:
Originally posted by jyro
and graduated to become a teacher, you have the ability to work all summer on a second job if you wish. you have health care with your teachers job,( lacking as it is from poor state funding ) . I don't understand why you are dependant on others to supply you with what you can supply yourself from benefits you received from going to school free. If you don't make a fair living at your current job, find another or get a second job. I do thank you for your service and am sorry you had the misfortune to be injured but was healthcare one of your prime reasons for joining in the first place? Was it a sence of patriotic duty that prompted you to join? I wasn't able to join, I had broken both legs when I was 13 and when I went for a phisical during draft time they issued me a 4f. I'm no elliquent oritator like yourself and I can't spell for shit. Should I also get social benefits because of being denied service and the education you got because of your sevice, I'm not asking for anything like that. I am dependant on myself to make a living and provide things for myself within my means. I want others to have the same responsibility as I do and if you don't like the lot your given in life, strive to better your self through hard work and determination, not from being given things from the gouvernment and being a dependant of others. My son is a quadrapleagic, he has 2 businesses he started after his injury at 18. The State helped him by giving him a wheel chair and supporting him till he went to work. He makes enough that he isn't eligible for help anymore and just bought a new car with 5k down from his business he started from near nothing.
Thats what FREEDOM gets you in America. If he can do it, anyone can.
I don't recall complaining about my current job, so here we go.

Yes to some of your questions. I did join for the benifits, the adventure, the patriotism, my family heritage. These are all reasons I joined. As teachers we are payed on a 188 day contract that is dispersed in 12 monthly payments, so don't think I don't earn my summers off. We also do not get free health care we have to pay for any insurance we get. Most teachers with families pay around $800 month. That is a 1/4 of the average teachers pay. As for my health benefits, the government agreed in writing that any health problems incurred on active duty would be covered for my lifetime. I started my adult life at 17 with a GED, my parents were low middle income and I was told when you leave the house you must make it on your own. I have, my wife and I put ourselves through college, bought our own house, never recieved a penny from anyone if we hadn't worked for it. The soldiers that guarentee your freedom are under payed and placed in harms way everyday, especially now. The Government enters into a contract with the soldier that states if he or she completes their commitments they earn certain benifits. I busted my ass making rank, re-enlisting and working in the conventional as well as the special operations area of the Army. I then got out when I could no longer perform at 100% and started a new career. I am currently working to become an administrator. I have earned every thing I own. Today I have spent the better part of 9 hours working on cars in my garage. I work an average of 90 hours a week between cars and teaching, all of which I enjoy.

As for your injuries my family does not look down on anyone not physically capable of joining the service, no one can held responsible for that. The fact you tried to join is patriotic and needs no excuse.
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post #26 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-08-2004, 09:09 PM
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you have my admiration and respect

for your familys work ethic and partiotism. I'm a firm beliver that the U.S. Gov. won't have social security benefits for when I retire in a few years. I have no pention from the steel plant where I have worked for 24 years. I DO have a 401k I put money in weekly as well as a state licensed AC business to fall back on for my later years. I'm not counting on ANY social plans that breed dependance on big brother. I am curently persuing a state journeyman electrical license that I should have by the end of this month. It takes a lot of pans in the fire to make ends meet but I'm not sitting back waiting on big brother to release me more benefits. I like having more of my money to spend and save and less to pay in taxes.
When I see Ted Kennedy, Bill or Hillary, Tom Daschle, Al gore, and John & Tereza all I think of is socialism, that's not a system I view as good for the country. All they do is maintain their power by putting more and more people on dependancy.

this may seem like a rant but it's no cut and paste.
BTW, I'm folically challenged so no more hairy comments.
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post #27 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-08-2004, 09:17 PM
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Re: you have my admiration and respect

Quote:
Originally posted by jyro
for your familys work ethic and partiotism. I'm a firm beliver that the U.S. Gov. won't have social security benefits for when I retire in a few years. I have no pention from the steel plant where I have worked for 24 years. I DO have a 401k I put money in weekly as well as a state licensed AC business to fall back on for my later years. I'm not counting on ANY social plans that breed dependance on big brother. I am curently persuing a state journeyman electrical license that I should have by the end of this month. It takes a lot of pans in the fire to make ends meet but I'm not sitting back waiting on big brother to release me more benefits. I like having more of my money to spend and save and less to pay in taxes.
When I see Ted Kennedy, Bill or Hillary, Tom Daschle, Al gore, and John & Tereza all I think of is socialism, that's not a system I view as good for the country. All they do is maintain their power by putting more and more people on dependancy.

this may seem like a rant but it's no cut and paste.
BTW, I'm folically challenged so no more hairy comments.
sorry didn't know about the hair.
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post #28 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-08-2004, 09:22 PM
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lol

I think we both want what's best for the country, we're just on different sides of the fence.
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post #29 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-08-2004, 09:27 PM
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Re: you have my admiration and respect

Quote:
Originally posted by jyro
for your familys work ethic and partiotism. I'm a firm beliver that the U.S. Gov. won't have social security benefits for when I retire in a few years. I have no pention from the steel plant where I have worked for 24 years. I DO have a 401k I put money in weekly as well as a state licensed AC business to fall back on for my later years. I'm not counting on ANY social plans that breed dependance on big brother. I am curently persuing a state journeyman electrical license that I should have by the end of this month. It takes a lot of pans in the fire to make ends meet but I'm not sitting back waiting on big brother to release me more benefits. I like having more of my money to spend and save and less to pay in taxes.
When I see Ted Kennedy, Bill or Hillary, Tom Daschle, Al gore, and John & Tereza all I think of is socialism, that's not a system I view as good for the country. All they do is maintain their power by putting more and more people on dependancy.

this may seem like a rant but it's no cut and paste.
BTW, I'm folically challenged so no more hairy comments.
Well social sercurity isn't really a thing of socialism. It is goingdown the toilet though. It was created just after the depression and despite its flaws, the Social Security Act of 1935 was a significant achievement in that for the first time the government had a responsibility for the individual welfare of all Americans. It established a number of programs that provided for the material needs of individuals and families. The Social Security Act reflected the humanitarianism of the 1930s as well as the inclination of Americans in those years to seek security and group acceptance. Although the Act faced some problems along the way, it provided the economic security that the American people desperately needed during the post-Depression era.

Now it has expired as a useful tool to the american people. When it was established the baby boomers were being born and the ratio of those who payed into the system was much greater than those drawing benefits from it. Today there are 11 persons paying social security for every one person drawing from it. The baby boomers will change that over the next 15 years to equal a 4 or 5 to 1 ratio. Social Security has to be replaced or seriously rewritten.

So in the end even us democrats admit it was good while it lasted in theory but is not valid for the future.
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post #30 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-08-2004, 10:11 PM
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Re: Re: You went to school on the GI Bill ?

Quote:
Originally posted by Pro Trash
Most teachers with families pay around $800 month. That is a 1/4 of the average teachers pay
Dude,

I have to call you on this one. I would have to see this in writing before I would believe that a Teacher pays an average of $800.00 a month for health care benifits. If this is true you need to shop around. You can get it cheaper than that on your own if you shop around.

On your side I do not feel teachers get paid enough as it is. I hope you get a raise.

On the DAV....their job is to secure more beneifits for vets. In fact you could call that job security on thier part. They will always act like they are getting cut. Sometimes they are and sometimes they are not.

I am afraid to inform you that all the shit you claim is a hassle
(and yes it can be) in dealing with the VA was going on along time before Bush was in office. In fact my wife, who also served in the military can not even get out of bed certain days due to a back injury she sustained working on the flight line. She deals with the VA quite often and the service has been shit since the 90s and prolly long before that. Blaming Bush for it is absolute Bullshit in my opinion.

Before you ask me if I served yes I did. 14 years worth. In fact a little over 14 years. I would have to say I may have retired if not for a jackass named Clinton who cut all our funding and made it almost impossible to advance in rank. I found myself hating the system and made the move to get out.

I am also disabled Vet with a 20% disability since I lost a part of my hand while on active duty. So I have alo dealt with the same BS you have.

So I agree with you the service at the VA is downright crap. I dealt with them long before Bush was in and it was crap then as well. I do not however blame Bush for that.

On Kerry having the right to toss his ribbons out....yes he did have the right to do that. However I feel that he acted in severe distaste for those who served with him, around him, before or after him when he did it.

I would never trust him to lead myself or any other young soul in the military. Nor would I desire to place our military in his hands. To me he spit on that chance when he stood on stage with the likes of Jane Fonda.

I also do not feel as if you have to have been in the military to be President. I just feel lke you need to surround yourself with people who can make good decisions and whom have served.

You really think John Kerry can do that? Perhaps Jane FOnda could be the advise him on Foreign Affairs......

Anyhow. enough of my rant. I agree and disagree with you on certain points. No disrespect intended.

Regards

Stacey
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post #31 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-09-2004, 12:37 AM
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I just stumbled on this thread. Sorry I got into the debate a little late.

I have a question for Pro Trash, which do you find more offensive, Bush getting preferential treatment and staying stateside or Kerry aligning himslef with Jane Fonda and protesting the war?

BTW, I do respect you for serving our country and believe John Kerry had every right to protest, even if he had not served in the war. I just think he opens himself up to closer scrutiny when he asks me to vote for him.

I will tell you that I find it completely reprehensible that John Kerry would be at the same protest as Jane Fonda. How can any soldier ever be on the same page as her? Ask John McCain what he would do if he had about 5 minutes alone with her?

I am also curious about why you have such bitter feelings about this country and blame Bush for your current plight.

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post #32 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-09-2004, 01:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 90 Notch
I just stumbled on this thread. Sorry I got into the debate a little late.

I have a question for Pro Trash, which do you find more offensive, Bush getting preferential treatment and staying stateside or Kerry aligning himslef with Jane Fonda and protesting the war?

BTW, I do respect you for serving our country and believe John Kerry had every right to protest, even if he had not served in the war. I just think he opens himself up to closer scrutiny when he asks me to vote for him.

I will tell you that I find it completely reprehensible that John Kerry would be at the same protest as Jane Fonda. How can any soldier ever be on the same page as her? Ask John McCain what he would do if he had about 5 minutes alone with her?

I am also curious about why you have such bitter feelings about this country and blame Bush for your current plight.
I do not blame Bush for my plight, but I ask about the Jane Fonda thing outright. Have you ever been at a place or done things you now see were distasteful. Bush was a womanizing drunk, he no longer is, and I no longer hold that against him. I do however see that the unemployment rate is the highest it has been in 20 years, the out sourcing of jobs that are acceptable to his administration are unacceptable to me and he has our country embroiled in a war we do not belong in. I won't for a second back down on that point, people have to want you in their country and face it, and the Iraqi's want nothing to do with us. The few that do are slowly turning away also.

Most of the stories about Fonda are untrue and made up anyhow. Did she go over and stand with the North Vietnamese, yes. Did she do something I consider borderline traitor, yes. Is she a bitch, yes. Do I think John Kerry holds or held her exact views, no.

The Enron Corporation totally screwed thousands of people out of their life savings. Our Presidential Administration has personal ties with these folks. Do I think Bush is one of them, no. So in the end, we have to very poor candidates up for President. The propaganda machines are running full throttle against both. I'm a democrat and that won't change. If Bush is the better man, fine the public will decide come November.

I refuse to change my political views and opinions based off one candidate’s selection. That would make me a spineless weak bastard who doesn't have a true political philosophy. I am not; I am a southern democrat, not to be confused with northern democrats.
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post #33 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-09-2004, 01:28 AM
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Re: Re: Re: You went to school on the GI Bill ?

Quote:
Originally posted by Stacey
Dude,

I have to call you on this one. I would have to see this in writing before I would believe that a Teacher pays an average of $800.00 a month for health care benifits. If this is true you need to shop around. You can get it cheaper than that on your own if you shop around.

On your side I do not feel teachers get paid enough as it is. I hope you get a raise.

On the DAV....their job is to secure more beneifits for vets. In fact you could call that job security on thier part. They will always act like they are getting cut. Sometimes they are and sometimes they are not.

I am afraid to inform you that all the shit you claim is a hassle
(and yes it can be) in dealing with the VA was going on along time before Bush was in office. In fact my wife, who also served in the military can not even get out of bed certain days due to a back injury she sustained working on the flight line. She deals with the VA quite often and the service has been shit since the 90s and prolly long before that. Blaming Bush for it is absolute Bullshit in my opinion.

Before you ask me if I served yes I did. 14 years worth. In fact a little over 14 years. I would have to say I may have retired if not for a jackass named Clinton who cut all our funding and made it almost impossible to advance in rank. I found myself hating the system and made the move to get out.

I am also disabled Vet with a 20% disability since I lost a part of my hand while on active duty. So I have alo dealt with the same BS you have.

So I agree with you the service at the VA is downright crap. I dealt with them long before Bush was in and it was crap then as well. I do not however blame Bush for that.

On Kerry having the right to toss his ribbons out....yes he did have the right to do that. However I feel that he acted in severe distaste for those who served with him, around him, before or after him when he did it.

I would never trust him to lead myself or any other young soul in the military. Nor would I desire to place our military in his hands. To me he spit on that chance when he stood on stage with the likes of Jane Fonda.

I also do not feel as if you have to have been in the military to be President. I just feel lke you need to surround yourself with people who can make good decisions and whom have served.

You really think John Kerry can do that? Perhaps Jane FOnda could be the advise him on Foreign Affairs......

Anyhow. enough of my rant. I agree and disagree with you on certain points. No disrespect intended.

Regards

Stacey
I'll find the website, for anytime you go full health care coverage for yourself and family it gets expensive. It is relatively cheap for a teacher to insure just themselves but when you add spouse and children it gets ridiculous.

I never claimed the VA issues began with Bush I just know he hasn't led any charge to fix the situation as he promised he would. He has however sent off to war more troops who will need these services in the coming years. If you are going to send troops into fire you must be willing to take care of their needs when they return both physical and mental.

Have you ever been in a topless bar? Does that make you a pervert or a life long sinner? Nope, your just human and had an indiscretion. Kerry being active against Vietnam is that way too. He admits he was wrong in some of the things he did. He was fighting for a cause he believed in. He went about it the wrong way but his intentions were to save lives. Vietnam was an ugly war and it should have ended before it ever started. God bless the poor troops who came back from there and those who did not. I am a democrat, can't help it, not willing to change what I believe in.
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post #34 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-09-2004, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pro Trash
I do not blame Bush for my plight, but I ask about the Jane Fonda thing outright. Have you ever been at a place or done things you now see were distasteful. Bush was a womanizing drunk, he no longer is, and I no longer hold that against him. I do however see that the unemployment rate is the highest it has been in 20 years, the out sourcing of jobs that are acceptable to his administration are unacceptable to me and he has our country embroiled in a war we do not belong in. I won't for a second back down on that point, people have to want you in their country and face it, and the Iraqi's want nothing to do with us. The few that do are slowly turning away also.

Most of the stories about Fonda are untrue and made up anyhow. Did she go over and stand with the North Vietnamese, yes. Did she do something I consider borderline traitor, yes. Is she a bitch, yes. Do I think John Kerry holds or held her exact views, no.

The Enron Corporation totally screwed thousands of people out of their life savings. Our Presidential Administration has personal ties with these folks. Do I think Bush is one of them, no. So in the end, we have to very poor candidates up for President. The propaganda machines are running full throttle against both. I'm a democrat and that won't change. If Bush is the better man, fine the public will decide come November.

I refuse to change my political views and opinions based off one candidate’s selection. That would make me a spineless weak bastard who doesn't have a true political philosophy. I am not; I am a southern democrat, not to be confused with northern democrats.
You compare GW Bush having been a "womanizing drunk" to a man who associated himself with a traitor to be the same thing? Sounds like grasping at straws to me. Please tell me you can see the difference between a man who had earlier personal problems asking to be the president from a guy who protested against his own country now wanting to be president. Please explain how you can justify a man who at one time hated this country and it's policies now wanting to set it's policies. Very scary to me.

Got to call you on the highest unemployment rate in 20 years, the latest economic news is that "leading economists" predict that all jobs lost since Bush took office will be recovered by the election. He had the 9/11 attacks, the Enron scandals that happened on Clintons watch(every felony those executives were charged with and that people are pleading gulity to happened during his term), and the war on terror, and now the economy has turned around in less than 3 years. Man, I can see why you don't like that policy, especially since you are a Democrat. Hell I wouldn't like it either if I was predisposed to dislike Republicans.

You are in serious jeopardy of losing your credibility if you won't even believe most of the facts about Fonda. Hell, she even tried to half-ass apologize for all her traitorous acts. You are definitely in the minority of veterans if you minimize her actions, that is a fact.

Enron and the major corporate scandals being the Bush administrations fault? WTF? You have your full scale Democratic spin machine working overtime on that claim for sure. You have some nerve trying to pull that BS off. All of the felonies, as I said above, were committed on Clinotns watch. Do you think the tone he set in his own oval office, getting BJ's from Monica, sober womanizing, etc., had anything to do with that moan, uh er I mean tone? Hell, at least Bsh kept his womanizing for his single days when he was not the President. Kinda takes the wind outta the typical Democrats sails who didn't want Clinton to held responsible for his "womanizing" actions while a sititng President, but Bush id responsible for his when he was younger and single. Hypocrisy at it's best I say.

I agree you shouldn't change your political views off of one decision, but what about 20 years of Kerry changing his views? I just wonder what your political views are that you agree with his opinions that are on both sides of every issue. Sounds more like an indictment of your veiws than a platform to be proud of.

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post #35 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-09-2004, 04:08 PM
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Re: Re: you have my admiration and respect

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Originally posted by Pro Trash
Well social sercurity isn't really a thing of socialism.

LOL...yes it most certainly is. It's socialism to a t. Taking monies from society, and redistibuting it. That IS socialism.
Quote:

It is goingdown the toilet though. It was created just after the depression and despite its flaws, the Social Security Act of 1935 was a significant achievement in that for the first time the government had a responsibility for the individual welfare of all Americans.


And, this is not socialism how?
Furthermore, it was created as a TEMPORARY means, and was not meant to be around more than a few years.
Quote:

Now it has expired as a useful tool to the american people. When it was established the baby boomers were being born and the ratio of those who payed into the system was much greater than those drawing benefits from it. Today there are 11 persons paying social security for every one person drawing from it. The baby boomers will change that over the next 15 years to equal a 4 or 5 to 1 ratio. Social Security has to be replaced or seriously rewritten.

IT wasn't poorly written...it has lived well beyond...WELL BEYOND.....the time it was supposed to last. OF course it doesnt work now. It was supposed to be temporary, not perm.

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post #36 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-09-2004, 04:22 PM
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Shooting fish in a barrel is normally viewed as cruel, but what the hell....

1. You compare making a poor decision (being somewhere you shouldn't) to years of protest agaisnt the war, starting BEFORE he left to go to war, after his attempt to get out of going failed. You chastize Bush for finding a way out of going, yet Kerry did the exact same thing, he just got shot down, so he enlisted to avoid being drafted.
2. Defending Haboi Jane, who violated the Sedition Act, and who's behavior was traitorous, if not treasonous? Wow.
3. Most Iraqi's DO want us there....it's a small minority who are fighting agaisnt us.
4. Bush admitted his mistakes of the past, i.e. drunk/womanizer, etc. He apologized for said behavior. I haven't seen Kerry's mea culpa anywhere.
5. Enron.....come on now. Who's administration was in office when Enron came to power? You're not REALLY gonna try to pin that on Bush, are you?
6. Southern Democrats don't exist anymore. They became part of the Republican Party beginning in the 50s, and finishing in the 80s. Southern Democrats are conservative. It is a holdover term from the days when the Repubs were leftists, and the Dems were rightists. You're trying to claim that you are a conservative, yet you support someone who is anti gun ownership, anti military, pro abortion, and has a more liberal voting record than either Hitlery Clinton, or Ted "Chappy" Kennedy?
7. Candidates are elected, not selected. Quite a difference.



Quote:
Originally posted by Pro Trash
I do not blame Bush for my plight, but I ask about the Jane Fonda thing outright. Have you ever been at a place or done things you now see were distasteful. Bush was a womanizing drunk, he no longer is, and I no longer hold that against him. I do however see that the unemployment rate is the highest it has been in 20 years, the out sourcing of jobs that are acceptable to his administration are unacceptable to me and he has our country embroiled in a war we do not belong in. I won't for a second back down on that point, people have to want you in their country and face it, and the Iraqi's want nothing to do with us. The few that do are slowly turning away also.

Most of the stories about Fonda are untrue and made up anyhow. Did she go over and stand with the North Vietnamese, yes. Did she do something I consider borderline traitor, yes. Is she a bitch, yes. Do I think John Kerry holds or held her exact views, no.

The Enron Corporation totally screwed thousands of people out of their life savings. Our Presidential Administration has personal ties with these folks. Do I think Bush is one of them, no. So in the end, we have to very poor candidates up for President. The propaganda machines are running full throttle against both. I'm a democrat and that won't change. If Bush is the better man, fine the public will decide come November.

I refuse to change my political views and opinions based off one candidate’s selection. That would make me a spineless weak bastard who doesn't have a true political philosophy. I am not; I am a southern democrat, not to be confused with northern democrats.

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Quote:
"The Father-heart of God was... thrilled with me -- an immature, mess-making spiritual infant... My heavenly Father was enjoying me while I was yet in the process of maturing, not sighing in disgust and waiting impatiently until I grew up. He loved and longed for me; He felt proud and was excited over me while I was falling short."
Quote:
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post #37 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-09-2004, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by HookEm
Shooting fish in a barrel is normally viewed as cruel, but what the hell....

1. You compare making a poor decision (being somewhere you shouldn't) to years of protest agaisnt the war, starting BEFORE he left to go to war, after his attempt to get out of going failed. You chastize Bush for finding a way out of going, yet Kerry did the exact same thing, he just got shot down, so he enlisted to avoid being drafted.
2. Defending Haboi Jane, who violated the Sedition Act, and who's behavior was traitorous, if not treasonous? Wow.
3. Most Iraqi's DO want us there....it's a small minority who are fighting agaisnt us.
4. Bush admitted his mistakes of the past, i.e. drunk/womanizer, etc. He apologized for said behavior. I haven't seen Kerry's mea culpa anywhere.
5. Enron.....come on now. Who's administration was in office when Enron came to power? You're not REALLY gonna try to pin that on Bush, are you?
6. Southern Democrats don't exist anymore. They became part of the Republican Party beginning in the 50s, and finishing in the 80s. Southern Democrats are conservative. It is a holdover term from the days when the Repubs were leftists, and the Dems were rightists. You're trying to claim that you are a conservative, yet you support someone who is anti gun ownership, anti military, pro abortion, and has a more liberal voting record than either Hitlery Clinton, or Ted "Chappy" Kennedy?
7. Candidates are elected, not selected. Quite a difference.
Shooting fish? Not quite, you see we are in America and the wonderful thing is I can believe in what ever the hell I want. It's called freedom maybe that view escaped you but here we go. I am anti abortion but don't agree with making it illegal, I am pro social services but feel it needs reform, I am a gun owner but don't mind waiting a while to get mine. I am against the church involved in the state but stand every morning with my 7th grade class and recite the pledge proudly saying "one nation under god", I am pro military but I am against the current war. I pray everyday for our troops and before every meal. I am not perfect and it would be a sin to think I am. I would have prefered a different candidate but he's it. Bush is so far out there it is scarey, he has good intentions but those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it if you remember. This war has similar markings to Vietnam. Do you really think that Iraq will remain a democratic country without the US muscle there?I don't that should tell you we don't belong, we are not the worlds police force.

There is a difference between democrats from the north and those from the south. Just as there are differences in food, accents and beliefs.

As for the White House and Enron. Cheney was chairing the Energy effort, you know he is supposed to work for the American people, and the public deserves to know who met with him and what was discussed.

When Enron collapsed, the White House position made it appear the administration was embarrassed by the role the former energy giant may have played in writing the plan. The White House could have spared itself some political heat by releasing the records of the energy task force when the issue first arose months ago. But it refused, citing the principle of executive privilege. The administration said it would have to be settled in court. Hell that is just as bad as dumb ass Clinton trying to redefine the meaning of the word sex. I ddun't buy either one you know.

Also in the end this all takes up way more time than it's worth. I spend to much time on this site debating when I should be bolting parts onto my coupe, which oh by the way is red,white and blue.

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post #38 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-09-2004, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by HookEm
Shooting fish in a barrel is normally viewed as cruel, but what the hell....

1. You compare making a poor decision (being somewhere you shouldn't) to years of protest agaisnt the war, starting BEFORE he left to go to war, after his attempt to get out of going failed. You chastize Bush for finding a way out of going, yet Kerry did the exact same thing, he just got shot down, so he enlisted to avoid being drafted.
2. Defending Haboi Jane, who violated the Sedition Act, and who's behavior was traitorous, if not treasonous? Wow.
3. Most Iraqi's DO want us there....it's a small minority who are fighting agaisnt us.
4. Bush admitted his mistakes of the past, i.e. drunk/womanizer, etc. He apologized for said behavior. I haven't seen Kerry's mea culpa anywhere.
5. Enron.....come on now. Who's administration was in office when Enron came to power? You're not REALLY gonna try to pin that on Bush, are you?
6. Southern Democrats don't exist anymore. They became part of the Republican Party beginning in the 50s, and finishing in the 80s. Southern Democrats are conservative. It is a holdover term from the days when the Repubs were leftists, and the Dems were rightists. You're trying to claim that you are a conservative, yet you support someone who is anti gun ownership, anti military, pro abortion, and has a more liberal voting record than either Hitlery Clinton, or Ted "Chappy" Kennedy?
7. Candidates are elected, not selected. Quite a difference.
Also as for Jane I did say she was a bitch. I even have a cartoon in my possession of a pair of legs in fatigues with jungle boots pissing on her grave. I have no love lost for her and to me she is insignificant. My dad spent 4 years in Nam and he said the same thing about her. She is to pathetic to waste time over, so I followed my dad on that one.
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post #39 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-09-2004, 07:28 PM
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You can defend KErry all you like, it's certainly your right.
But anyone who supports that man, also supports the following abomination:


KKerry's own book, with a paody of the Marines raising the flag in Iwo Jima.

You should read into VVAW before you cast your vote. KErry and this organization gave indirect support to the Communists...some say direct support, by their actions. If you want to support someone who either did, or came damn close to, violating the Sedition Acts, it's your issue...not that your vote will matter in this state, that Bush will carry in a landslide.

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Quote:
"The Father-heart of God was... thrilled with me -- an immature, mess-making spiritual infant... My heavenly Father was enjoying me while I was yet in the process of maturing, not sighing in disgust and waiting impatiently until I grew up. He loved and longed for me; He felt proud and was excited over me while I was falling short."
Quote:
Mike Bickle

[



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post #40 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-10-2004, 08:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pro Trash
Also as for Jane I did say she was a bitch. I even have a cartoon in my possession of a pair of legs in fatigues with jungle boots pissing on her grave. I have no love lost for her and to me she is insignificant. My dad spent 4 years in Nam and he said the same thing about her. She is to pathetic to waste time over, so I followed my dad on that one.
Did you and your father both serve in the military over in "Nam"?

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post #41 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-10-2004, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 90 Notch
Did you and your father both serve in the military over in "Nam"?
My birth year was 1972 that was not possible. So answer the main thread coming into this media we are on. IS John Kerry unpatriotic? If so why? He was after all trying to put an end to Vietnam. Don't you agree that Vietnam is one of the worse things that happened to our early baby boomers? If so why was he wrong for trying to end the death of thousands of Americans?
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post #42 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-10-2004, 01:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pro Trash
My birth year was 1972 that was not possible. So answer the main thread coming into this media we are on. IS John Kerry unpatriotic? If so why? He was after all trying to put an end to Vietnam. Don't you agree that Vietnam is one of the worse things that happened to our early baby boomers? If so why was he wrong for trying to end the death of thousands of Americans?
OK, I thought you were on here touting your military experience in "Nam" also, sorry my mistake.

Kerry was wrong for protesting while we had POW's under severe torture. I say protesting the war while POW's are getting tortured is aiding and abetting the enemy. Please tell me that you know from the movie Hanoi Hilton that Jane Fonda was used against the POW's and they suffered torture when they disrespected her traitorous ass when she went over to the camps. Don't take my word for it, ask the POW's who were there. John Kerry is responsible to a lesser degree because those protests he attenmded were used to give the enemy moral support for their actions. I say that was treasonous, especially since Kerry talked about the raping and killing of people during the protests but never filed an official complaint about the "abuse" he supposedly witnessed. Some would say he either lied or he was derelict in his duty to report the abuse. Pick your poison, either way he is unfit to be the president in my book. Like I said before, why would a person who oncew espoused such hatred for this country want to be the one who leads it? I say that is unpatriotic. It is not the protesting, but the circumstances and lies he purported while doing it.

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If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
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post #43 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-10-2004, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 90 Notch
OK, I thought you were on here touting your military experience in "Nam" also, sorry my mistake.

Kerry was wrong for protesting while we had POW's under severe torture. I say protesting the war while POW's are getting tortured is aiding and abetting the enemy. Please tell me that you know from the movie Hanoi Hilton that Jane Fonda was used against the POW's and they suffered torture when they disrespected her traitorous ass when she went over to the camps. Don't take my word for it, ask the POW's who were there. John Kerry is responsible to a lesser degree because those protests he attenmded were used to give the enemy moral support for their actions. I say that was treasonous, especially since Kerry talked about the raping and killing of people during the protests but never filed an official complaint about the "abuse" he supposedly witnessed. Some would say he either lied or he was derelict in his duty to report the abuse. Pick your poison, either way he is unfit to be the president in my book. Like I said before, why would a person who oncew espoused such hatred for this country want to be the one who leads it? I say that is unpatriotic. It is not the protesting, but the circumstances and lies he purported while doing it.
Kerry co-founded the Vietnam Veterans of America and became a spokesperson for the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Lot's of veterans were against the war in SE Asia. In April 1971, testifying before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, he asked the question of his fellow citizens, "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" We all now know that the mistake was being in Vietnam to begin with, does it take away from the men who fought there? heck no
Does the fact the war was wrong say anything bad about our servicemen? heck no once again.
In light of that it doesn't make the war anymore correct.

Sen. Claiborne Pell, (D-R.I.) thanked Kerry back in 1971, then 27, for testifying before the committee, expressing his hope that Kerry "might one day be a colleague of ours in this body." They work together now.
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post #44 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-10-2004, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pro Trash
Kerry co-founded the Vietnam Veterans of America and became a spokesperson for the Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Lot's of veterans were against the war in SE Asia. In April 1971, testifying before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, he asked the question of his fellow citizens, "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?" We all now know that the mistake was being in Vietnam to begin with, does it take away from the men who fought there? heck no
Does the fact the war was wrong say anything bad about our servicemen? heck no once again.
In light of that it doesn't make the war anymore correct.

Sen. Claiborne Pell, (D-R.I.) thanked Kerry back in 1971, then 27, for testifying before the committee, expressing his hope that Kerry "might one day be a colleague of ours in this body." They work together now.
I am not doubting what you are saying, but you neglected to respond to my opinion about protesting and it being traitorous. Especially for someone who now wants to lead the military.

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“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
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post #45 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-10-2004, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 90 Notch
I am not doubting what you are saying, but you neglected to respond to my opinion about protesting and it being traitorous. Especially for someone who now wants to lead the military.
I think he was protesting for a cause he believed in. If McCain doesn't hold it against him, who was a prisoner of war and is a Republican, then I won't either. I can honestly say currently the only person from the last two campaigns I believe in is Sen. John McCain, now that is a man who would have my vote. I can't call Kerry a traitor or say he was supporting communism based off speculation that contends he conspired with communists. When the Enron scandal first broke there were rumors that Enron and Cheney had ties with the Taliban. I did not believe that either. So I have to say both are unreasonable. He is not a traitor because you don't accept his views or his views didn't appeal to a certain cause.
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post #46 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-10-2004, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pro Trash
I think he was protesting for a cause he believed in. If McCain doesn't hold it against him, who was a prisoner of war and is a Republican, then I won't either. I can honestly say currently the only person from the last two campaigns I believe in is Sen. John McCain, now that is a man who would have my vote. I can't call Kerry a traitor or say he was supporting communism based off speculation that contends he conspired with communists. When the Enron scandal first broke there were rumors that Enron and Cheney had ties with the Taliban. I did not believe that either. So I have to say both are unreasonable. He is not a traitor because you don't accept his views or his views didn't appeal to a certain cause.
OK, I just think that protesting a war while we have POW's being held is traitorous. I also wonder why he would want to lead a country that he thought had done so many wrong things. I think that is like letting a person who thinks all cops are crooked or immoral be the police chief, kinda stupid don't you think?

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If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
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post #47 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-10-2004, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 90 Notch
OK, I just think that protesting a war while we have POW's being held is traitorous. I also wonder why he would want to lead a country that he thought had done so many wrong things. I think that is like letting a person who thinks all cops are crooked or immoral be the police chief, kinda stupid don't you think?
Both are examples of why people want to take charge of certain organizations. When you believe strongly in something you want to affect change. If it is a corrupt police force you take charge implement change and build character. Kerry wasn't speaking out against America he was speaking out against an administration and a war. He now feels he can best affect change by providing his leadership. So no I don't feel it is stupid to want to assume responsibility to affect change in government or rid a police system of corruption.
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post #48 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-10-2004, 10:22 PM
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Before championing VVAW, you should do a little reading into their background........


Quote:
Originally posted by Pro Trash
Both are examples of why people want to take charge of certain organizations. When you believe strongly in something you want to affect change. If it is a corrupt police force you take charge implement change and build character. Kerry wasn't speaking out against America he was speaking out against an administration and a war. He now feels he can best affect change by providing his leadership. So no I don't feel it is stupid to want to assume responsibility to affect change in government or rid a police system of corruption.

color=#606060]
Quote:
"The Father-heart of God was... thrilled with me -- an immature, mess-making spiritual infant... My heavenly Father was enjoying me while I was yet in the process of maturing, not sighing in disgust and waiting impatiently until I grew up. He loved and longed for me; He felt proud and was excited over me while I was falling short."
Quote:
Mike Bickle

[



Sober By Grace Ministries: A Ministry of The James 2:26 Project
[size=1]Where New Beginnings Start
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post #49 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-10-2004, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pro Trash
Both are examples of why people want to take charge of certain organizations. When you believe strongly in something you want to affect change. If it is a corrupt police force you take charge implement change and build character. Kerry wasn't speaking out against America he was speaking out against an administration and a war. He now feels he can best affect change by providing his leadership. So no I don't feel it is stupid to want to assume responsibility to affect change in government or rid a police system of corruption.
You missed the bigger of point of why someone would want to take over a country they have once espoused to hate or an organization that they believe is corrupt and without honor. Is it possible the intentof that type of person is a little more self-serving than doing what is right? If you say it isn't possible then I understand where you are coming from and it is not a good place. I would put Hillary in the same exact category as Kerry in that regard.

One
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If you like the IRS, DMV and the Post Office, you will love Obamacare!

“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.”
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post #50 of 69 (permalink) Old 05-10-2004, 10:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 90 Notch
You missed the bigger of point of why someone would want to take over a country they have once espoused to hate or an organization that they believe is corrupt and without honor. Is it possible the intentof that type of person is a little more self-serving than doing what is right? If you say it isn't possible then I understand where you are coming from and it is not a good place. I would put Hillary in the same exact category as Kerry in that regard.
There are always people who are going to be self-serving. That has been said about Cheney many times, do you agree with that? Hillary is a left-winger you do not support, I expect you to not agree with her ideas. I also understand you don't agree with Kerry and I have no problem at all with that. I also hope you understand I take the same views against big money republicans and if you have a problem with that. Well you and hook em are just going to have to deal because that is what I believe.
I am guarded against those who spend more time telling me all the bad things about one person, before they tell me any of the good things about another. Kerry might be a little self-serving and at the same time Bush might be too.

After all aren't most politicians self-serving? If you think other wise you have been fooled. The founding fathers never intended for politics to become a career, it was government of the people by the people. We no longer have that, we have government of the lobbyist for the lobbyist and that goes for both parties. I think the system is corrupt, I don't particularly like it either; however, it is what it is and it is our system take it or leave it.
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