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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-14-2003, 03:29 PM Thread Starter
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-14-2003, 03:59 PM
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I think that is very good news. Like stated, it could lead to a better understanding of how certain diseases form and spread. Which in turn can lead to a possible cure.

I find this article very interesting.

http://www.canada.com/technology/sto...D-CCEB5D76FE35

They have tried over 700 times to clone a monkey and failed everytime. Looks like you are out of luck Danny.

I have said from the beginning that I did not think that human cloning was possible and this just supports my views. My personal belief is that when man was created, God created a body from the ground and breathed a spirit into that body, making him a living soul. Therefore, if we could create a human clone we would have the body but no spirit to go with it. Without a spirit we have no life, so a clone would never be able to develope.

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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-14-2003, 04:19 PM Thread Starter
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LOL, you make it sound like I think human cloning is a good thing.

Don't assume that.

But I also don't think it's impossible. DNA was first described in 1953. Fifty years later, we have completed the human genome project and have living breathing cloned animals. Cloned humans are on the horizon, for better or worse (worse, I think).

Are you saying you believe monkeys have souls? If not, why can't we clone them?
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-14-2003, 08:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
LOL, you make it sound like I think human cloning is a good thing.

Don't assume that.

But I also don't think it's impossible. DNA was first described in 1953. Fifty years later, we have completed the human genome project and have living breathing cloned animals. Cloned humans are on the horizon, for better or worse (worse, I think).

Are you saying you believe monkeys have souls? If not, why can't we clone them?
No, I am not saying that you think cloning humans is a good thing. I was just giving my view on it.

I think that the reason we are having a hard time cloning monkeys is because they are so closely related to us. What are we, 98.5% of the same makeup? I think that they may be able to clone a monkey and maybe even create the the beginnings of a human but because of what I stated earlier, I don't think the human will be able to grow because of the lack of a spirit/life. That is the one thing that separates us from the animals.

But only time will tell. I personally don't think cloning, humans anyway, is a good thing either. To think of a person walking around with no spirit or soulless is a little eery in my book.

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post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-15-2003, 07:08 AM
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I just hope they don't clone Dannys

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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-15-2003, 09:00 AM Thread Starter
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Maybe.... I'm already a clone?
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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-15-2003, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
I don't think the human will be able to grow because of the lack of a spirit/life. That is the one thing that separates us from the animals.

To think of a person walking around with no spirit or soulless is a little eery in my book.
I dont think cloning HUMANs is a very good idea either. But, the only way to tell if it will work or not is to try it. Without the spirit, a body should NOT be able to live on its on support.

One reference in the bible point to "Giving up the ghost". Once the spirit left the body, the body dies.

It will certainly be an interesting project.

As far as DNA engineering - I think its a double edged sword personally. I can see the benefits of being able to wipe out cancer, and other ailments. BUT, on the downside, engineering a perfect human race is a bad thing.

I personally believe that "aging" is all contained in DNA. This was proven a while back. I've thought that since 7th grade, and my teacher thought I was crazy for that idea.

Immortality thru lack of aging via DNA engineering is possible, although we probably dont have the testing/technology to do it quite yet. Realize, that by immortality, I mean that we cannot die from aging. Should you get a death flu or hit by a car, or God simply calls you home, you will die.

But I believe God simply flipped switches, so to speak, in human DNA at appropriate times to handle the population that existed at the time. Back in the early days, people lived for HUNDREDS of years. Then later, after the great flood, he set it at 120 years. Maybe its still there, but our unhealthy lifestyles and diseases have affected our ability to live out to this age with any consistency. Who knows.
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post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-15-2003, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mr Evil
I personally believe that "aging" is all contained in DNA. This was proven a while back. I've thought that since 7th grade, and my teacher thought I was crazy for that idea.

This is a good point. My thoughts are that if you take the DNA of a 30 year old man to clone, and you create a baby, that baby is going to have 30 year old DNA. By the time that baby reaches 25-30 (if in fact it ever could) it will begin to experience the effects of old age.

The cloned animals that have managed to live are often abnormal. Many experience rapid aging, odd-sized organs, liver damage and excessive weight gain. Dolly herself suffered from arthritis at the age of 5, had signs of early aging and was recently euthanized because of lung disease at the age of 6. But her genetic age was 12 years. All the cells in her body came from her mother that was 6 at the time.

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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-15-2003, 02:03 PM Thread Starter
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You know why they named her "Dolly"?

Her 'parent' DNA came from the mammary gland of her sister/mother. The only person they could think of that was famous for their mammaries was - you guessed it - Dolly Parton.

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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-16-2003, 01:17 AM
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Ahh. I understand what you are saying, but I mean to take it to another level WITHOUT cloning. More like, DNA "modding".

If we had the technology, we already are closing in on the genes that cause aging, we can "nip" them in the bud, and basically program the DNA to reach the physical peak desired. Its really just a matter of turning off the "self destruct" genes. Thats really what the aging DNA genes are doing. It tells the cells to split off and die.

By modding an individual's DNA like this, immortality is possible. But, due to the ethical ramifications, and cost, only the most wealthy individuals in the world would have access to it after perfected. After all, who wants people to live 200 years? Our resource and population crisis would be a big factor.

But, what about using that type of technology for space travel? You could alter men to live for hundreds of years. Plenty of time for them to reach a destined planet, get setup, and start populating.
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post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-29-2003, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
I have said from the beginning that I did not think that human cloning was possible and this just supports my views. My personal belief is that when man was created, God created a body from the ground and breathed a spirit into that body, making him a living soul. Therefore, if we could create a human clone we would have the body but no spirit to go with it. Without a spirit we have no life, so a clone would never be able to develope.
So you don't think that our soul is in ever partical of our being ... thus being carried over to a clone?

I don't think cloning whole persons is a good idea. But cloning organs for transplants and such, would be very beneficial.

And I read somewhere that there's only a .6% difference ... or 99.4% genetically identical qualities between humans and monkey's.

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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-29-2003, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf
So you don't think that our soul is in ever partical of our being ... thus being carried over to a clone?
No, I really dont think so Jay. I could be wrong, there is alot that I dont understand about the spirit world.

Quote:
I don't think cloning whole persons is a good idea. But cloning organs for transplants and such, would be very beneficial.
I agree.

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And I read somewhere that there's only a .6% difference ... or 99.4% genetically identical qualities between humans and monkey's.
That is about what I have heard. The thing is, is that if you alter our genetics by a fraction of a % you get a defect.

Edit: Let me clarify for the people who drive T-Birds. If you alter the .6% either one way or the other, you get a defect.

Last edited by MoonDog; 04-29-2003 at 11:50 AM.
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post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-29-2003, 10:17 AM Thread Starter
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.... or a monkey.
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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-29-2003, 11:48 AM
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.... or a Tbird.
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-29-2003, 02:37 PM Thread Starter
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...or a MoonDoggie.

Hey, you ever read anything by John Dominic Crossan? I am wondering what a mainline Christian's view of him is.

I just read his book The Historical Jesus, and it raises some interesting points. I'm no biblical scholar (though I did start reading it ), but his main point is that a lot of stories in the New Testament are not necessarily historically accurate, yet still paint an accurate picture of Jesus' message. For instance, it is highly unlikely that Christ's body was removed from the crucifix for burial in the tomb. In first century Roman culture, a person with low social status would be the only type of person to be crucified. This is because a crucified body is ravaged by birds and other wild animals and would not receive a proper burial - a huge insult to that person's eternal soul - and, therefore, considered a fitting end for a Jewish peasant by the oppressive Romans. A person with high enough social status would be executed by other means so that their bodies could be appropriately put to rest. There has only been one body found (in 1968 I believe) of someone who died by crucifixion.

Because it would have condemned Jesus' soul to not have a proper burial, the story of him being buried at the tomb was *gasp* created so that the Messiah could have a fitting end. He argues that this is not a bad thing.. this is first-century Christians way of dealing with the fact that their sent-by-God leader had even died in the first place. I am inclined to agree, based on what I have seen of human nature, etc.

There are many other details to his story, but it is making me look at the Bible in a different way (better for me). He notates his chapters with many comments from readers, some for and some very much against his mission. One said (and I like this) that Dominic's book "makes it so I don't have to leave my brain at the door when I enter church".

Definitely an interesting read, I highly recommend it if you are willing to challenge (not CHANGE) your beliefs.
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post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-29-2003, 08:18 PM
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I have heard of the book, never read it. Depending on how you view the bible, he could piss you off or make you think. I believe there is much in the book that really has nothing to do with doctrine or salvation. I may pick it up sometime and give it a once over.

Quote:
Definitely an interesting read, I highly recommend it if you are willing to challenge (not CHANGE) your beliefs.
There are somethings that I believe now that are not necessarily taught in the church. I have no problem reading for myself and coming to my own conclusions.

Found this link on crucifixion. I have read much of Josephus's work, very good Jewish historian.

http://www.uncc.edu/jdtabor/crucifixion.html
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post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 04-30-2003, 10:05 AM Thread Starter
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Cool. My gf is reading it right now, but I can loan it to you later if you're interested. It's a short read, about 140 pages or so. There are many other interesting parts to the book. Definitely worth the time IMO.

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post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-07-2003, 08:15 PM
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!

i believe that it could be a good thing!
But, any clone would not have a soul!
It would be created by man not God!
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post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-08-2003, 05:54 AM
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Re: !

Quote:
Originally posted by AndyMc
i believe that it could be a good thing!
But, any clone would not have a soul!
It would be created by man not God!
But the source material is created by God. Cloning isn't like sci-fi where you step in a machine, and in a seperate machine, a clone is formed. Cloning is a lot like artificial insemination, only using DNA from the subject being cloned, so that the resulting baby's DNA matches the subjects DNA. Thus a clone.

The DNA is not created by man. I believe that the soul permeates every molecule of the being. So in using the source DNA, the soul is also copied in the resulting clone.

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post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-08-2003, 10:20 AM
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It is a very interesting theory Jay. I really dont want to find out if it is true or not but interesting none the less. Like I stated before, I dont think that is the case but who really knows? The only way to find out these answers is to clone someone, and from the news articles that I have read, they are far from being successful. At least when it comes to monkeys.
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post #21 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-09-2003, 04:33 AM
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Aye. I don't see a real benefit to cloning any creature, including man. But the medical benefit of cloning organs or some such, that's something we should continue to persue.

Why anyone feels the need to clone a person, or any animal, is beyond me. What's the point? How does that benefit us, or nature, or anything?

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post #22 of 22 (permalink) Old 05-09-2003, 07:34 AM
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I agree, there is no point. I guess the only point is that someone would be able to say "I did it!" Whoopie!? Now what?
Beyond that there is no point. Cloning organs though, like you and others have said, has many benefits. Things like that could save a persons life where otherwise they may never find a suitable donor.
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