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post #1 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 03:44 PM Thread Starter
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Why do I need to learn how to be close to God?

I have thought this over in my head (you guys are making me think!) and I have come to the conclusion:

I don't need anybody to tell me how to worship God.

To make it perfectly clear, I am not an atheist. However, I have rejected the Judeo-Christian 'all your sins will be forgiven if you accept Jesus as your savior' view of worshipping God. The only reason YOU as Christians believe as you do is because your parents, or friends, or someone else very important to you has impressed these Christian beliefs upon you. Unless God Almighty himself has spoken directly to you, this is true.

Don't you see that means your religious thoughts have been corrupted by man? Everything that has to do with religion (not just Christianity here) has been tainted by man, and is therefore imperfect. ALL religions have used barbaric tactics to 'spread the word'. Very unholy if you ask me.

I understand that an important component of Christianity is evangelism. Why is that? God created us a perfect world to live in, and if you pay attention to the wonders He created, you will be closer to Him. No, I don't have a handy-dandy Chapter/Verse to quote from; I don't need one when the beauty and love of God is so painfully obvious to me. I don't need a man to tell me how to appreciate God.

Just my .02, I want to let you guys know where I'm coming from. Go ahead, check you Bibles to find quotes where it 'proves' me wrong, I know you're going to. But I don't need any book to tell me how to appreciate God, and really - neither should you.

Danny
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post #2 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 04:11 PM
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Re: Why do I need to learn how to be close to God?

Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
I have thought this over in my head (you guys are making me think!) and I have come to the conclusion:

I don't need anybody to tell me how to worship God.

To make it perfectly clear, I am not an atheist. However, I have rejected the Judeo-Christian 'all your sins will be forgiven if you accept Jesus as your savior' view of worshipping God. The only reason YOU as Christians believe as you do is because your parents, or friends, or someone else very important to you has impressed these Christian beliefs upon you. Unless God Almighty himself has spoken directly to you, this is true.

Don't you see that means your religious thoughts have been corrupted by man? Everything that has to do with religion (not just Christianity here) has been tainted by man, and is therefore imperfect. ALL religions have used barbaric tactics to 'spread the word'. Very unholy if you ask me.

I understand that an important component of Christianity is evangelism. Why is that? God created us a perfect world to live in, and if you pay attention to the wonders He created, you will be closer to Him. No, I don't have a handy-dandy Chapter/Verse to quote from; I don't need one when the beauty and love of God is so painfully obvious to me. I don't need a man to tell me how to appreciate God.

Just my .02, I want to let you guys know where I'm coming from. Go ahead, check you Bibles to find quotes where it 'proves' me wrong, I know you're going to. But I don't need any book to tell me how to appreciate God, and really - neither should you.

Danny
In a sense you are correct. the bible does say that "the heavens declare the glory of God." I am not going to tell you that you are wrong, because pretty much everything you said is correct. I dont need anyone telling me how to worship God either. Worship is a personal thing between you and God. If all you are doing is what people have told you or taught you to do then it is possible it is not true worship. But it really depends on where your heart is, someone may be imitating what they have learned, but whether it is right or wrong, God see's your heart and He knows whether it is true worship or not.

As for believing because I was taught to believe, there was a long time (15 years) that I really didn't believe much in the bible. I grew up in a Baptist church until I was 10 and then my parents divorced, that didn't make be believe to much in God.

Even today, 12 years later, I dont believe in everything that is or isn't taught in the Baptist church. I have gone to churches that turned me off and some that were very good. The ones I have liked to most are the ones that tell me to not take everything that is said as gospel but to go home read the bible for myself and pray for revelation from God.

So, I wouldn't say I believe because I have been impressed to believe, I believe because I choose to believe. I could turn away tomorrow if I wanted to but I have experienced things and felt the presence of God in my own life and whether anyone believes me or not, I know what I know and no one can take that from me. This is all my opinion ofcourse.

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Last edited by MoonDog; 11-06-2002 at 04:19 PM.
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post #3 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 04:33 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks, MoonDog. You were one of the ones I wanted to have understand where I'm coming from on these theological debates. I know you are a devout Christian and I respect your beliefs. And I'm really glad to hear you say I was right.
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post #4 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 04:46 PM
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Originally posted by 46Tbird
Thanks, MoonDog. You were one of the ones I wanted to have understand where I'm coming from on these theological debates. I know you are a devout Christian and I respect your beliefs. And I'm really glad to hear you say I was right.
But...... No, I'm not gonna preach to you. I am sure you have heard it all before so it wont help saying it again. I know I have pissed some people off lately so I am trying to watch what I say. I am really a nice guy, I just have a habit of spouting off sometimes. I really do respect everyones views even though I believe them to be incorrect. The biggest problem I think people have with Christianity is the salvation issue, like you stated. That is too bad, because that is what christianity is based on, that Christ died for us.

Anyway, I would like to see what some of the other guys have to say about this. And whether you like it or not, I will be praying for you. Of course, all of this is just my opinion.

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post #5 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 07:17 AM
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You two are correct in a sense. As Moondog, (and I'm sure a lot of us) I drifted and explored not having a close relationship with God. My beliefs are my own, forged by: 1.)Diligent and honest study of the Bible 2.)Listening to preachers and others and then doing more diligent and honest studying of the Bible to decide if they are wrong of if I'm wrong.

Danny- While I agree with your belief of not needing anyone to tell you how to worship God, I will have to disagree with the basic idea behind it.

It seems to me that you worship a different God then most of us do. (which is cool. that's your thing) our God saves us and loves us,and forgives. BUT our God also will judge us and condemn us. Which is why we are glad about the salvation issue. I understand why you don't believe in the salvation thing. And we can talk more about that if you wish.

Ultimately your beliefs are from one who just refuses to give into what God commands us. But the problem is that you don't believe in the Bible. Well, right there is a lack of faith. A total lack of faith.

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post #6 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 10:21 AM
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I read Romans 8:16 which says, "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"

I know that am saved becuase the Spirit speaks to me my Spirit and tells me I am a Son of God.

Regarding worship of God: I have to disagree with Randy and Danny. To say that you don'tneed to be told or taught about worship is kind of silly to me. Someone might say as they bang their head against the wall, that they are worshipping God. I am glad I have godly men and the Word of God to instruct me as to how to live which worshipping is a part of living.

Danny: What does it mean to you to appreciate God? Also, you several times have said how you feel about MAN tainting God's word and work. Man is far from perfect, the world is far from perfect, there is much sin in a Christians life and in an unbelievers life. Don't bash what God has written or his work because of man. When the cat stratches you, don't kick the dog!

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post #7 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 11:14 AM Thread Starter
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Originally posted by speedpro50
To say that you don't need to be told or taught about worship is kind of silly to me. Someone might say as they bang their head against the wall, that they are worshipping God.
And I find it silly that you can't appreciate the wonders God created for you and me intuitively.

Rastafarians say they are closer to god when they smoke marijuana. Do you find that silly too? Even more silly than banging your head against the wall to worship God?
Quote:
Psalms 104:14
He causeth the grass for the cattle, and herb for the service of man.
You really can't argue with them there. It's in the Bible. And they are Christians, although YOU might consider them a cult, as they belive Haile Selassie was the second coming of Christ.

This is what I'm getting at; that man can tumble and fumble and twist and distort the TRUE message that God sends to all of us. I believe that ALL organized religion is a perversion of the message of true love and brotherhood that God has sent. Open your eyes and see all the grim and evil tyrrany that has come of man's obsession with religion. How can you have faith in religion when religion tells you it is OK to murder in order to sway another man to believe as you do? And if you say Christianity has not done this... you need to crack a history book, brother.
Quote:
Danny: What does it mean to you to appreciate God? Also, you several times have said how you feel about MAN tainting God's word and work. Man is far from perfect, the world is far from perfect, there is much sin in a Christians life and in an unbelievers life. Don't bash what God has written or his work because of man. When the cat stratches you, don't kick the dog!Lee
There it is again... that the Bible is the indisputable word of God. Man, I just have trouble with this. It was written by the deciphels (men) after the stories had been told and re-told through generations. Ever played the game where you whisper a secret in someone's ear and you 'pass' the secret around until it gets to the last person? And it's always hilarious what comes out at the end... because it's never the same! Well I feel the Bible is a lot the same... because it was written by man, and is therefore imperfect.

God speaks to me many ways. He has blessed me with a good job, a loving family, and many other things. I appreciate all that He does for me, but I also undestand that he needs me to live my life the best way I can. It's all about the concept of Karma, although I'm no Buddhist. Treat people right, do well, and understand that EVERYTHING in your life was brought to you by God, and appreciate every moment you live, every experience you have, and every person you meet. There are no 'rules' to appreciating God and being closer to God. You just do it.
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post #8 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 12:08 PM
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I just wanted to say that I agree with you all in some aspects. But this is how I see it. Yes, there are always going to be outside influences on you faith. How else would you develop a faith unless someone planted a seed in you? We do not live in Bible times....in other words.....God does not speak to us directly. But, he DOES speak to us through his servants here on earth, and WE are his servants. When you lead someone to Christ, it is not you, but the FAther who has saved them. Christ draws in his people thru the use of people who already follow Him, and from there he begins to develop a personal relationship with you, once you accept Him. Then, and only then can yuou decide for yourself what is tru and right in your mind and ways of worship. I Corinthians 3:16 says "Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's spirit lives in you?" It is personal, but many people share many of the same beliefs, and that is why there is such a thing as Church and mass worships and such. Also, God calls us to be unified in Him. Epesians 4:3-6 illustrates this unity.
The world we live in is a tainted place, and not all messages or prophecies are spoken as a truth, BUT that is why it is important for you yourself to be knowledgable about the Bible, b/c that is God's written word, and it is your sword against evil.
post #9 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 12:13 PM
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Lee, let me clarify what I am trying to say in regards to worship. No one needs to have someone else to teach or show you how to worship. It is clearly spelled out in the bible what pleases God when it comes to worship. It is always helpful to have another persons view on worshiping and things can be learned from that. But as a blanket statement I have to say no, you dont need to have people tell you how to do something. My idea of worship may be different from yours, in some churches they like to raise hands during singing to the Lord, some like to and encourge dancing, others use instraments and some don't. But some or all of these things are not accepted in all churches. What do you tell someone in the Church of Christ that have a conviction to not use music during worship when in Psalm 150 it clearly states that we are to praise the Lord with everything?

My point about worship is that regardless of what people teach you in church, it is one persons idea or interpretation about it. A person needs to read the bible and find out what God says about worship.

Randy

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post #10 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
Lee, let me clarify what I am trying to say in regards to worship. No one needs to have someone else to teach or show you how to worship. It is clearly spelled out in the bible what pleases God when it comes to worship. It is always helpful to have another persons view on worshiping and things can be learned from that. But as a blanket statement I have to say no, you dont need to have people tell you how to do something. My idea of worship may be different from yours, in some churches they like to raise hands during singing to the Lord, some like to and encourge dancing, others use instraments and some don't. But some or all of these things are not accepted in all churches. What do you tell someone in the Church of Christ that have a conviction to not use music during worship when in Psalm 150 it clearly states that we are to praise the Lord with everything?

My point about worship is that regardless of what people teach you in church, it is one persons idea or interpretation about it. A person needs to read the bible and find out what God says about worship.

Randy
I agree with that. The only source for answers is God's word.

Lee
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post #11 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 12:31 PM Thread Starter
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Re: imposition

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Originally posted by VStangchic19
BUT that is why it is important for you yourself to be knowledgable about the Bible, b/c that is God's written word, and it is your sword against evil.
Funny, that's what Muslims say about the Quran too. And there are other religious texts too - such as The Book of Mormon. And to hear some of you accept certain tales in the Old Testament as the 'Word of God' (Genesis, etc..) and then disregard the rules it gives as 'Old Law' (wife beatings, etc...) is just hilarious to me. So which is right? Which is the TRUE word of God?

Let me help you here - none is the true word of God. Because religious texts are implements devised by man to control other men.

Believe what you want to believe - but books were written by men. God in his infinite power DOES NOT need a book to communicate with you. Think about it long and hard before you respond.
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post #12 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 12:57 PM
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Re: Re: imposition

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Originally posted by 46Tbird
And to hear some of you accept certain tales in the Old Testament as the 'Word of God' (Genesis, etc..) and then disregard the rules it gives as 'Old Law' (wife beatings, etc...) is just hilarious to me. So which is right? Which is the TRUE word of God?
Can you explain this to me Danny? (that is your name right?) Because I seem to have missed where it says in the bible that it is OK to beat your wife. Or even anything else that it says that we disregard from the Old Testement. I am really at a loss here.

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post #13 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 01:13 PM
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Re: Re: imposition

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Originally posted by 46Tbird

Funny, that's what Muslims say about the Quran too. And there are other religious texts too - such as The Book of Mormon. And to hear some of you accept certain tales in the Old Testament as the 'Word of God' (Genesis, etc..) and then disregard the rules it gives as 'Old Law' (wife beatings, etc...) is just hilarious to me. So which is right? Which is the TRUE word of God?

Let me help you here - none is the true word of God. Because religious texts are implements devised by man to control other men.

Believe what you want to believe - but books were written by men. God in his infinite power DOES NOT need a book to communicate with you. Think about it long and hard before you respond.
true, that is what muslims say, jews say, and wiccans say, etc say. But two things that set them apart. 1. Conceince(God has the truth built into each one of our conceinces and we know deep down right from wrong, even though we dont follow it all the time.)2. Jesus Christ (Claimed to be the Son of God, the Savior, and our key to heaven. He performed miracles of healing people, rasing a man and Himself from the dead, turned water into wine and more and more and more. ) Jesus Christ word I believe he spoke the truth and is was He says he is. Now, what do you think. You have the info from the Bible of who he was and what he said. What do you think? Was he telling the truth or was he a liar. Anyone can see that there is a God. Just look at the earth around you. It has creator written all over it. But you also see death, Jesus Christ said I am the savior, the Lord and who believeth in Me shall not parish, but have eternal life. Thats all the Bible comes down to. Do you believe or not?

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post #14 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 02:11 PM Thread Starter
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Because I seem to have missed where it says in the bible that it is OK to beat your wife. Or even anything else that it says that we disregard from the Old Testement.
Oh wow! You're kidding, right?

Well, then let's start with polygamy (having multiple wives). That's not normally accepted today, but Lamech was the first to do it when he married Adah and Zillah (Gen. 4:19-25)

Then let's move on to beatings.
Quote:
Exodus 21:20-21
And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money [property]
How about slavery? I don't own any and I bet you don't either. In fact, I bet you'd think pretty lowly of anyone who had some. But it was OK under 'Old Law'...
Quote:
Exodus 20:17
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.
And if that has doesn't have you re-thinking what is said about 'Old Law', then check out what Leviticus 19:20-22 has to say about raping your slave (all is A-OK if you sacrifice an animal and repent!).

Well, it's been fun showing you just a few quotes we kinda 'disregard' now from the Old Testament. Good thing we wrote that New Testament to show you how to really accept God into your life, huh!
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post #15 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird

Oh wow! You're kidding, right?

Well, then let's start with polygamy (having multiple wives). That's not normally accepted today, but Lamech was the first to do it when he married Adah and Zillah (Gen. 4:19-25)

Then let's move on to beatings.

How about slavery? I don't own any and I bet you don't either. In fact, I bet you'd think pretty lowly of anyone who had some. But it was OK under 'Old Law'...

And if that has doesn't have you re-thinking what is said about 'Old Law', then check out what Leviticus 19:20-22 has to say about raping your slave (all is A-OK if you sacrifice an animal and repent!).

Well, it's been fun showing you just a few quotes we kinda 'disregard' now from the Old Testament. Good thing we wrote that New Testament to show you how to really accept God into your life, huh!
The Old Covenant is not in force as we have the New Covenant today in the age of grace.

Lee
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post #16 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 02:29 PM Thread Starter
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Originally posted by 281R
Jesus Christ (Claimed to be the Son of God, the Savior, and our key to heaven. He performed miracles of healing people, rasing a man and Himself from the dead, turned water into wine and more and more and more. ) Jesus Christ word I believe he spoke the truth and is was He says he is. Now, what do you think.
Let me make something straight. Not EVERYBODY thought Jesus Christ was the son of God. Even his contemporaries. Do you think the Romans would have nailed up the son of God? No. Do you know why we still have Judaism today? Because they saw every act that Jesus did and STILL did not accept him as the savior.

Do you believe every story told to you? Do you believe the tales in The Book of Mormon? Do you believe Haile Selassie was the second coming of Christ? A lot of people believe both of these things, and trust me - they aren't any more right or wrong than you are.

I'm sure you think it's crazy that Muslims face North and pray to Allah three times a day. I'm sure you think it's crazy that hindus have sacred cows. But that's no crazier than saying that the only way to know your creator is to accept Jesus Christ as your savior.

The problem is with religion - it is man-made and a corruption of the message God sends us all.
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post #17 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 02:30 PM Thread Starter
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The Old Covenant is not in force as we have the New Covenant today in the age of grace.
Thank you for backing me up.
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post #18 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird

Oh wow! You're kidding, right?

Well, then let's start with polygamy (having multiple wives). That's not normally accepted today, but Lamech was the first to do it when he married Adah and Zillah (Gen. 4:19-25)
This was not an Old Testement law. All I can say is that in some societies it is still accepted, in ours it is not. God gave us the ability to divorce but in the New Testament we are told that it is Gods will that we don't. If someone wants to marry multiple wives, fine, I am not going to and I bet you wont either. Why do you not? Because someone told you that it was wrong.

Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
Then let's move on to beatings.

Exodus 21:20-21
And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money [property]
I think you need to read the whole thing. This by no means is saying that it is OK to beat anyone. If you read all of Exo. 21 you will see that there are very strick punishments for all types of beatings. Exo. 21:22 says that if someone harms a woman and kills an unborn child he is to punished. ummm....

Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
How about slavery? I don't own any and I bet you don't either. In fact, I bet you'd think pretty lowly of anyone who had some. But it was OK under 'Old Law'...

Exodus 20:17
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.
Shalt not covet = do not desire. Manservent, maidservent? We have those today, they are called butlers and maids. Even though there was slavery, the bible never says that it is OK. Heck there is slavery today.

Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
And if that has doesn't have you re-thinking what is said about 'Old Law', then check out what Leviticus 19:20-22 has to say about raping your slave (all is A-OK if you sacrifice an animal and repent!).
Slaves back then were thought of as property, if you read in Deu 22:25 it addresses the samething regarding a women to married.

Deu 22:25 But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die:
Deu 22:26 But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbor, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
Deu 22:27 For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.


Lastly, your comment above: The problem is with religion - it is man-made and a corruption of the message God sends us all.

I agree, I dont like religion myself. I am all about a relationship with Jesus Christ.

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post #19 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird

Let me make something straight. Not EVERYBODY thought Jesus Christ was the son of God. Even his contemporaries. Do you think the Romans would have nailed up the son of God? No. Do you know why we still have Judaism today? Because they saw every act that Jesus did and STILL did not accept him as the savior.

Do you believe every story told to you? Do you believe the tales in The Book of Mormon? Do you believe Haile Selassie was the second coming of Christ? A lot of people believe both of these things, and trust me - they aren't any more right or wrong than you are.

I'm sure you think it's crazy that Muslims face North and pray to Allah three times a day. I'm sure you think it's crazy that hindus have sacred cows. But that's no crazier than saying that the only way to know your creator is to accept Jesus Christ as your savior.

The problem is with religion - it is man-made and a corruption of the message God sends us all.
Do you know the story of Jesus Christ, yes the Romans would have nailed up the son of God b/c what God has planned will come and has come to past. I think the real key here is you are focusing on men and I am focusing on God here. What God prophesizes will come true. Now it is you that must determine the truth from the rubish.

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post #20 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 03:11 PM Thread Starter
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Now it is you that must determine the truth from the rubish.
Thank you. And I've already done exactly that.
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Originally posted by 46Tbird
The problem is with religion - it is man-made and a corruption of the message God sends us all.
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post #21 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 03:27 PM Thread Starter
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I also would like to add...

That it is doubtful that any of you would have been introduced to Christianity without the horrific 'conversions' that took place in Europe in the Middle Ages. Can anyone here explain to me why it is acceptable to torture or kill another person to sway their belief system? And if you get someone to accept your belief system under such duress, is that person reeeaally accepted by God?

IMO, anyone that kills in the name of God is doing the devil's work. And that includes A BUNCH of Christians.
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post #22 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 03:35 PM
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Thank you. And I've already done exactly that.
Yes James religon has corruption in it and it is man made, but I see it as a unity of God passing on His word. You determine which one is right. But hey, if you want another comparison. Look at our government, it is a gift from God for our society to keep justice and protect us. But it is corrupt too. Everything that has man involved in it is corrupt, so what are we surpose to do? Give up? Or look for the truth and stand for the truth. Without the Bible, were lost...
The Bible is a living history book and prophecy book, with out it or even with out other history books we have no clue where we came from or why we are here...

Use the OT as a guide of where you have come from. That is why it is the "Old". Use the NT as a guide for your life b/c it is the new covenant because us believers in Christ are no longer judged by the law of the Old to get to heaven.

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post #23 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 03:54 PM Thread Starter
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Yes James
Danny. LOL
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Everything that has man involved in it is corrupt, so what are we surpose to do? Give up? Or look for the truth and stand for the truth. Without the Bible, were lost...
And I don't see it that way. With the Bible we're more lost, chasing our tails and explaining away contradictions and accepting some parts and disregarding others and interpreting verses one way or another... it is all never-ending. The true God has a simple plan that has been twisted and tweaked by man to the point where it is confusing and does not provide the answers we are all looking for.

We need to use our God-given intelligence to provide answers. No, not science as religion - science as a vehicle to understanding ourselves and our world. And therefore coming closer to God. I'm sure it scares you - 'Man as God', but that's not it either - more like 'Man Understanding God'.

Years ago, Galileo was exiled by the Catholic Church because he believed the Sun was the center of our galaxy. Was he right? Was the church wrong? You tell me...
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post #24 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 04:04 PM
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Originally posted by 46Tbird
I also would like to add...

That it is doubtful that any of you would have been introduced to Christianity without the horrific 'conversions' that took place in Europe in the Middle Ages. Can anyone here explain to me why it is acceptable to torture or kill another person to sway their belief system? And if you get someone to accept your belief system under such duress, is that person reeeaally accepted by God?

IMO, anyone that kills in the name of God is doing the devil's work. And that includes A BUNCH of Christians.
It is totally unacceptable. And you know what, every single religion on the face of the planet is at fault at one time or another. And that includes the ones REALLY doing the devils work.

But it is funny that people always brings up the Crusades. How come no one brings up the fact the Muslims are still slaughtering people today in the Middle East. Christians are being killed in China for their beliefs. India takes away all rights of those who convert from Hindu to Christianity. And here in the good ol' USA we as christians can't even mention the word Jesus for fear that someone will throw a lawsuit at us for being intolerant.

It is not the christians that have the problem with intolerence, it is the non-christians that are intolerent of us. And that is not an opinion, that my friend is a fact.

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post #25 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 04:13 PM
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And I don't see it that way. With the Bible we're more lost, chasing our tails and explaining away contradictions and accepting some parts and disregarding others and interpreting verses one way or another... it is all never-ending. The true God has a simple plan that has been twisted and tweaked by man to the point where it is confusing and does not provide the answers we are all looking for.

We need to use our God-given intelligence to provide answers. No, not science as religion - science as a vehicle to understanding ourselves and our world. And therefore coming closer to God. I'm sure it scares you - 'Man as God', but that's not it either - more like 'Man Understanding God'.

Years ago, Galileo was exiled by the Catholic Church because he believed the Sun was the center of our galaxy. Was he right? Was the church wrong? You tell me...


Danny, I have been reading all of your posts here and it seems to me that your problem with following Christ is not an issue of your understanding it or not or you agreeing with it or not, rather it is a matter of your heart. One doesn't disagree with Christ becuase of his head, but that comes from the heart. I will pray for you as I hope all on the board will. It has to be the Holy Spirit that sheds light on your heart as man cannot do it.

Lee
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post #26 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
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Danny. LOL

And I don't see it that way. With the Bible we're more lost, chasing our tails and explaining away contradictions and accepting some parts and disregarding others and interpreting verses one way or another... it is all never-ending. The true God has a simple plan that has been twisted and tweaked by man to the point where it is confusing and does not provide the answers we are all looking for.

We need to use our God-given intelligence to provide answers. No, not science as religion - science as a vehicle to understanding ourselves and our world. And therefore coming closer to God. I'm sure it scares you - 'Man as God', but that's not it either - more like 'Man Understanding God'.

Years ago, Galileo was exiled by the Catholic Church because he believed the Sun was the center of our galaxy. Was he right? Was the church wrong? You tell me...
Dude, sorry about the name misshap...

But dude, your statement above is just not right. Humans are not capable of giving answers about God. The product cannot answer to who the creator is, only the the creator can. It is about as crazy as the tower of Babal. If you look to science to answer your question about what is going to happen to you after you die and you say you believe in God. Good Luck, you'll never find it.

About the Galileo thing, every year our government dose something wrong because the people who run it are sinfull. Lets do away with government because it did something bad. See, that point of view is not going to keep order.

Last edited by 281R; 11-07-2002 at 04:31 PM.
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post #27 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 04:30 PM Thread Starter
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It is not the christians that have the problem with intolerence, it is the non-christians that are intolerent of us. And that is not an opinion, that my friend is a fact.
LOL - The fact is that religion breeds intolerance - and every religion is guilty of it. At all times! Evanglism is just a mild way of saying 'sway them, for they don't believe as we do'. It's a very important component of every religion.

The Crusades get mentioned - because they were terrible! And so is executing the 'infidel' Christians in Pakistan. And so is every other instance where a person was killed on the premise of 'religion'. Answer me this - are the leaders of the Crusades in Heaven right now?

I'm not attacking Christianity, I just soundly reject the idea that words written by man are the only true way to know God.
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post #28 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 04:43 PM Thread Starter
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It has to be the Holy Spirit that sheds light on your heart as man cannot do it.
And that's it. He HAS shed light on my heart, and it wasn't through the words of the Bible. And Lee, if the words of the Bible make you feel closer to God, and you live your life in a manner that is as good as you can be, then brother you ARE closer to God.

There are a lot of situations today that are very trying and people are looking to religion for answers. This makes them very succeptible to people that are very much NOT doing God's work. Like priests molesting boys, like Jim and Tammy Faye taking money, like Osama and company flying airplanes into the WTC. Religion has become a means to propogate evil deeds. It is quite true. Think about it - I have, and have come to completely reject religion and accept the true love that God provides.

I'm no Christian, I'm no Muslim, I'm no Buddhist, I'm no Wiccan, I just feel enlightened. I'll pray for you too.

Peace
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post #29 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 04:50 PM Thread Starter
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If you look to science to answer your question about what is going to happen to you after you die and you say you believe in God. Good Luck, you'll never find it.
I agree! And just like me, you won't know anything about the afterlife until you're there. So don't tell me heaven is a big white place with clouds and angels playing harps until you've been there. I will let God show me what he has planned for me in the afterlife when that time comes. I trust that He loves me the way I love Him and that's where I'll put my faith. And keep in mind, there are millions of people in the world that believe you are going straight to hell for being a Christian.

Don't worry, they're wrong too.
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post #30 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 04:55 PM
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Originally posted by 46Tbird

LOL - The fact is that religion breeds intolerance - and every religion is guilty of it. At all times! Evanglism is just a mild way of saying 'sway them, for they don't believe as we do'. It's a very important component of every religion.

The Crusades get mentioned - because they were terrible! And so is executing the 'infidel' Christians in Pakistan. And so is every other instance where a person was killed on the premise of 'religion'. Answer me this - are the leaders of the Crusades in Heaven right now?

I'm not attacking Christianity, I just soundly reject the idea that words written by man are the only true way to know God.
Religion can and many times does breed intolerance, but you cant sit there and tell me that there are more intolerant christians then non-christian. It just isn't true.

I cant say one way or another whether the Crusade leaders are in heaven or not. It is not for me to judge. Yeah, they did some terrible things and I am sure they have been punished for that, as well they should. To answer your question - I dont know.

It sound as though you are attacking Christianity but if not, fine.

I have a question, how do you know you are hearing from the true God if you have nothing to base what He says on? Is it possible that you could be hearing from something less desireable and evil?

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post #31 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 05:00 PM
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I agree! And just like me, you won't know anything about the afterlife until you're there. So don't tell me heaven is a big white place with clouds and angels playing harps until you've been there. I will let God show me what he has planned for me in the afterlife when that time comes. I trust that He loves me the way I love Him and that's where I'll put my faith. And keep in mind, there are millions of people in the world that believe you are going straight to hell for being a Christian.

Don't worry, they're wrong too.
One thing you need to look at, being a Christian is not necessarily a religon, it is a way of life. You can be a Christian and not be attached to any religion.

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post #32 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 05:21 PM Thread Starter
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Religion can and many times does breed intolerance, but you cant sit there and tell me that there are more intolerant christians then non-christian. It just isn't true.
I don't have any facts and figures on this. No one does. But the number of intolerant Muslims or Christians or Wiccans is a moot point. The religions are what breed the intolerance and are therefore the problem.
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It sound as though you are attacking Christianity but if not, fine.
Nope. Just ALL organized religion.
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I have a question, how do you know you are hearing from the true God if you have nothing to base what He says on?
Faith. Is that not a good enough answer? Do I need a book written by men 3500 years ago in order to validate my claim?

I have a burning love of the world and people inside me. Who are you to tell me that isn't coming from God? If I really believe it is - then it is. Brother, there are MANY in this world who are filled with hatred and spite that claim to be inspired by God. And I'm sure they ARE inspired by the God described in their little religious books that were written by men.
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post #33 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 05:39 PM
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Originally posted by 46Tbird

Faith. Is that not a good enough answer? Do I need a book written by men 3500 years ago in order to validate my claim?

I have a burning love of the world and people inside me. Who are you to tell me that isn't coming from God? If I really believe it is - then it is. Brother, there are MANY in this world who are filled with hatred and spite that claim to be inspired by God. And I'm sure they ARE inspired by the God described in their little religious books that were written by men.
I wasn't trying to imply that it wasn't coming from God. I was just asking what you have to backup what you believe. You said faith. That is a very good answer. I have faith that what I read in the bible is true. And yes, the bible was written by men, but, those men were divinely inspired by God, so the bible contains the divine words of God. Therefore making it truth.

It is the same as you saying that God told you to love one another and give to the poor. You write down in a post on here what he said. Does that make what you wrote any less true because your post was written by man? No. It still contains truth.

Just because something is written by man does not automaticly mean there is some agenda behind it. Do we need to go and throw out every history book? God would not have picked someone to write down his words if He knew that person would corrupt what He said.

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post #34 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2002, 02:40 AM
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Do you believe God created the earth, the people, the animals, ect.? I am sure you do. Don't you think if God could create all of that he would have the power to get a book written through men and it be correct? It is hard for me to underestimate God. I read the Bible and see how it is perfectly put together. It does not clash. If you think it clashes somewhere then you are missing something somewhere. I know I have read some things in the Bible and it seemed like it clashed, but I kept reading and seeking the word and God showed me the answer. It would frustrate me at times because I thought the Bible was contradicting, but I realized that it wasn't the Bible, it was my understanding. I finally had to realize that I was not the all knowing and God is.lol
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post #35 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2002, 03:08 AM
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Also, everyone is molded by other people in some way not just religion. I wonder at times why people will believe a history book, and not the Bible. The Bible is a History book as well, yet it is made perfect. If I said WWI never happened people would think I was crazy. They would show me all kinds of history books to try and show me it happened. I could counter every thing that they threw at me and say it was wrong some way. But, I could not prove them wrong and they could not prove me wrong. That is where faith comes in. The point I am making is neither one of us were around when WWI was going on. But we believe because we have heard the stories from someone or read them somewhere. That is the same with the Bible. Faith comes by hearing. Faith in God comes from hearing Gods word(the Bible). We cannot make up God in our own mind and be right.
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post #36 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2002, 08:24 AM Thread Starter
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Faith comes by hearing. Faith in God comes from hearing Gods word(the Bible). We cannot make up God in our own mind and be right.
No, your faith came from hearing. Mine didn't.

And why can't I envision God in my own mind and be right about it? My mind was created by God and is inspired by God. Are you saying the men who wrote the Bible are somehow 'more inspired' than me, and therefore their ideas and beliefs carry more weight than mine? Are their beliefs more valid than your own?

Think about it... you don't need the words of men (even the ones inspired by God) and the 'rules' they created to love and worship God.
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post #37 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2002, 08:32 AM
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No, your faith came from hearing. Mine didn't.

And why can't I envision God in my own mind and be right about it? My mind was created by God and is inspired by God. Are you saying the men who wrote the Bible are somehow 'more inspired' than me, and therefore their ideas and beliefs carry more weight than mine? Are their beliefs more valid than your own?

Think about it... you don't need the words of men (even the ones inspired by God) and the 'rules' they created to love and worship God.
Anyone could be inspired by God, but yet again they can be inspired by the devil. Plus God dosent inspire men's minds to say, He inspires their hearts. Being inspired by God is a life changing event. Has your life completely changed? Or to put it this way, are you truely seeking the Holy One? If so, then why do you discard His Son?

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post #38 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2002, 08:55 AM
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Danny, dont get me wrong dude, I see where you are coming from and I respect your views. But the biggest problem I have is that you really dont have anything to base your beliefs on. You say you hear from God and you have faith that you are hearing truth, but you dont have anything to base the truth on. The God that you are hearing from could tell you something totally different tomorrow and you would have to change everything you believe.

So, there is either someplace that you have gotten your core beliefs from or you have just created you own god in your head. This is not ment as an attack on you, this is just the perseption that I have. Correct me if I am wrong.

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post #39 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2002, 11:01 AM Thread Starter
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But the biggest problem I have is that you really dont have anything to base your beliefs on.
You have your book written by man. I have my love of God. That's what I'll base my belief system on, thank you very much.
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post #40 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2002, 12:38 PM
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You have your book written by man. I have my love of God. That's what I'll base my belief system on, thank you very much.
Bro, I had you all wrong. I need to put you up there with Abraham and Moses as one of the great patriarchs of all time.

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post #41 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2002, 01:14 PM
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No, your faith came from hearing. Mine didn't.


That is obvious!

And why can't I envision God in my own mind and be right about it?

That sounds like you are God, and God is a created being in your mind!

My mind was created by God and is inspired by God.

WRONG! Your brain is created by God, but your mind is not your brain. Read both the bible and scientific findings to research this.
It is obvious that your mind is not inspired by my God, the Most high God of the bible. The only way to heaven!

Are you saying the men who wrote the Bible are somehow 'more inspired' than me, and therefore their ideas and beliefs carry more weight than mine?

Yep, again it is obvious.

Are their beliefs more valid than your own?

Yes as they were men of God that heard from God in ways that vey few people do today! I cannot begin to compare myself to Abraham, Moses, Paul, or John the Baptist (which Jesus said was the greatest born among women).

Think about it... you don't need the words of men (even the ones inspired by God) and the 'rules' they created to love and worship God.

NO, you may not but if a person desires a TRUE relationship with THE living God, then one SURELY NEEDS the inspired word of God and those rules! Faith DOES come by hearing, hearing by the Word of God.
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post #42 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2002, 01:23 PM Thread Starter
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Bro, I had you all wrong. I need to put you up there with Abraham and Moses as one of the great patriarchs of all time.


I know you're being facetious, but think about it - why do you hold anyone's relationship with God as more true than yours or mine? Only because people who wrote books tell you to.

I'm pretty entrenched in my viewpoint. I have really come to where I won't see it any other way. It's kind of like throwing away a bunch of old stuff when you move. After you've done it, and have come to see how much simpler and better your life has become, you wonder why you ever thought you would miss that old junk.

As followers of religion, you are putting your faith in a book. God does not write books, men do. I am putting my faith in the one thing I know has not been corrupted by any man - my own love of God. And it's a beautiful thing.
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post #43 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2002, 01:37 PM
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I am putting my faith in the one thing I know has not been corrupted by any man - my own love of God. And it's a beautiful thing.
How does that sentence make any sense?

my own love of God. AND THEN YOU SAY...

I am putting my faith in the one thing I know has not been corrupted by any man

Yeah, that makes sense
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post #44 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2002, 01:37 PM Thread Starter
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Faith DOES come by hearing, hearing by the Word of God.
I agree. I am listening to everything he is saying to me. Why are you listening so intently to man?
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post #45 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2002, 01:39 PM Thread Starter
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Yes as they were men of God that heard from God in ways that vey few people do today! I cannot begin to compare myself to Abraham, Moses, Paul, or John the Baptist (which Jesus said was the greatest born among women).
Lee, you are a sheep. Baaah baaaaah.

And I can't stand your holier-than-thou attitude. So here's one for your religious viewpoint:
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post #46 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2002, 01:40 PM
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I agree. I am listening to everything he is saying to me. Why are you listening so intently to man?
Wait a minute. I am listening to the inspired Word of God, written by God through man. You may not agree, so that is your problem.

But you on the other hand are listening to yourself and whatever God you have created. From what I know, you are a man! So therefore in listening to your opinion of God, you are listening to a man!

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post #47 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2002, 01:40 PM
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KEEP IT CIVIL!


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post #48 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2002, 01:42 PM
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Lee, you are a sheep. Baaah baaaaah.

And I can't stand your holier-than-thou attitude. So here's one for your religious viewpoint:
I am a sheep, thank God! I am glad I am a sheep because the goats will be cast into the lake of fire.

Also, which part of the statement you quoted was a holier-than-thou attitude. I am sorry but there are to many holes in your statements and I cannot let that pass as you need to know the truth.
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post #49 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2002, 01:44 PM
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I know you're being facetious, but think about it - why do you hold anyone's relationship with God as more true than yours or mine? Only because people who wrote books tell you to.

I'm pretty entrenched in my viewpoint. I have really come to where I won't see it any other way. It's kind of like throwing away a bunch of old stuff when you move. After you've done it, and have come to see how much simpler and better your life has become, you wonder why you ever thought you would miss that old junk.

As followers of religion, you are putting your faith in a book. God does not write books, men do. I am putting my faith in the one thing I know has not been corrupted by any man - my own love of God. And it's a beautiful thing.
I am glad you took it that way, it was ment jokingly.

I don't hold anyones relationship more true then my own. And no, the bible doesn't say for us to also. The bible is kind of like a manual for a car. You read it to better understand God and what He wants for you. It also tells you how to live a prosperous and joy filled life. I also look to the bible for inspiration. If I am going through a hard time, I may read something that will help get through what I need to. I don't put my faith in it but in God. That is why when I read or study something I am always asking God for a clear understanding. That is not faith in a book or in man, but faith in God.

And I dont follow a religion, I had stated before that I dont care for religion, I am more into a relationship. That relationship just happens to be with the God of the bible. I am sure most everyone who posts here agrees with this statement.

Disclaimer:
No other posters were flamed, ridiculed, persecuted, belittled, berated, judged or otherwise in the making of the above-posted reply. It is with respect all are asked to observe this and to provide the same courtesy bestowed upon those who have posted and those who will post. Yada, Yada, doublespeak and so forth!
MoonDog is offline  
post #50 of 92 (permalink) Old 11-08-2002, 01:51 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Wills Point, TX -- Citizenship in HEAVEN!
Posts: 505
Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
Gentlemen,


KEEP IT CIVIL!


1st warning
I though we were just sharing and having a good time????
speedpro50 is offline  
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