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post #1 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-18-2002, 08:44 AM Thread Starter
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Corporal Punishment

Me and my wife got in a discussion last night, but how do ya'll feel about spanking your children. Even when you have Bible versus like:
Prov 13 "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes (diligently)."
Prov 19 "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying."
Prov 22 "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."
Prov 23 "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."
Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Shoel)."
Prov 29 "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."


I feel that it should be used at a last resort. My father did it to me when came to a last resort. Just wondering what your thoughts are about this.

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post #2 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-18-2002, 09:30 AM
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The key to any type of reprimand of a child is to NOT do it in anger. This is easier said than done. But really the point of discipline is to teach and instruct.

However, I have always believed in spanking my kids. This is typically effective at younger ages, when a short bout of physical pain is more effective than trying to "reason with a 3 yr old."

I see this all the time from parents. The 3 yr old may or may not grasp that running out in the street is dangerous. A 3 yr old may or may not (probably NOT) understand the concept behind any other type of punishment (grounding, taking toys away, whatever) than a quick spanking.

I do NOT believe in beating a child unmercifully (getting back to the disciplining out of anger issue). But I know that a quick swat on the hand, etc was very, very effective when they were just learning to walk and get into things. It's not to keep my possessions from being broken, but to protect them AND provide boundaries. Believe it or not, children like boundaries. It provides them with a great sense of security in their home and the knowledge that mom and/or dad love them.

I'm getting WAY off topic here.

Bottom line...yeah, I believe spanking is ok when done in the proper way. As my kids get older (7 and 4 now), I realize that you have to be creative as a parent. The same punishment does not work every time for every child.

My kids get very few spankings nowdays. Typically it only occurs when they are disrespectful to my wife (their mother...but I let them know she's my wife. I like stressing that point to them, that they will not disrespect my wife) or another adult. This just doesn't happen often with my two kids.

But I see people giving a 2 yr old a "time out" for disobeying. Please. This child has no clue why they are being punished...and many times the "time out" ends up being in their room with all their toys. Yeah that works! A simple, short whack is a very effective, and NOT emotionally/physically damaging, way to let a child know they did something wrong. As they get older they will WANT a spanking b/c its over and done, and the punishment is short (too short, many times). I want my kids to "think" about the misbehavior. The form of punishment is only designed to achieve this goal...not be abusive.

As my kids get older, I will still spank them occassionally I'm sure, but at some point there are much more effective ways of discipline. I think the last spanking I got was when I was 10-11 yrs old. To this day my mom and I laugh about that. I remember _trying_ to cry, in order to act like it really hurt. LOL. That's when she realized that form of punishment was no longer gonna cut it.

Where I went to high school (private school) they had corporal punishment. I never got whipped by a coach, but I know a couple of guys who did. Seeing a 15 yr old with tears welled up in his eyes is a pretty powerful deterrant. But those guys were never beaten or badly bruised. A couple of whacks from a big man with a big board did the trick.
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post #3 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-18-2002, 09:53 AM
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Different kids respond differently to punishment. Some may get the picture with spanking and others respond to "time out" or "grounding". My kids are at an age (15 and 13) where nothing works. Although, they do know that I mean business when I give them one of my looks. My wife and I both spanked our kids when they were younger and for the most part they are very good kids and have never done anything or acted to the contrary.

I agree that for the most part "time out" does not work in smaller children because after a couple of minutes they forgot why they are even there. But a swift swat on the rearend will be remembered.

One key thing about spanking though is to make sure the child still knows that he/she is still loved even though you did not like what was done. That way they will put the connection of the spanking with the wrong doing and not with "my daddy doesn't love me".

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post #4 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-18-2002, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog

One key thing about spanking though is to make sure the child still knows that he/she is still loved even though you did not like what was done. That way they will put the connection of the spanking with the wrong doing and not with "my daddy doesn't love me".
Absolutely, 100% true. That's why I made that point about NOT discplining in anger.

They need to know why they are getting spanked/displined before, and get reassurance afterwards. Just b/c I did not like the way they acted (reason for being disciplined) does not mean I do not still love them.

This is just another reason why long "time outs" for little ones are not effective. They tend to push the children away. The punishment becomes "mom and dad don't want you around"...whereas a quick spanking means business, but at the same time they are right back with the rest of the family (regarding proximity).

As they get older the situation can change as you stated. Being a good parent takes work.
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post #5 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-18-2002, 10:46 AM
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I totally believe that you should spank your kids. But, you must spank them out of love not anger. I rarely have to spank at my house. I have a 1yr old (which isn't old enough to spank, and a 7 yr old who is. I have probably spank the 7yr old about 6 times in the last 3 or 4 years. I use to use the hand but changed to a belt. The key is don't beat them to hard with it.lol The reason I use the belt now is because the hands are for blessing and I don't want her to fear me. I want her to fear the belt(rod). I will not whip her when I am angry. Though when she stole from the store I was very angry, but I told her to go to my room and I sat down and cooled off for about 10-15min. Then I would go calmly to the room and tell her that I love her and that I hate having to spank her. I make sure she understands why she is getting a spanking. Then I give her a spanking. Every time she gets a spanking, after she dries her tears she will come to me and give me a hug, tell me she is sorry, and say she loves me.

My wife was kindof against spanking. She thought that the kid would grow up hating you for it. I explained to her that it has to be out of love not anger. Also, if you don't whip them now while they are young, they will whip you when they are older. It was hard for me because the 7yr old is my step daughter. So, I had to ease into this without getting shot by my wife.lol Very protective.lol But, once she saw the respect and the love that our little girl gave me she was impressed. My wife is still to soft to spank. And my wife wonders why Courtney keeps asking for something even after her mom says no.lol When I say no, she doesn't ask again because she knows that no means no. You can not reason with a child. Your child will respect and love you if disipline them.
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post #6 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-18-2002, 12:35 PM Thread Starter
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I dont agree with the statements, but how would you refute them?

In Norway and Sweden, it is illegal for a parent, teacher, or anyone else to spank a child. In some states and provinces, it is only illegal for a teacher to spank. In all areas of North America, physical punishment by a parent, as long as it is not severe, is still seen by many as necessary discipline, and condoned, or even encouraged.
For the past several years, many psychiatrists, sociological researchers, and parents have recommended that we seriously consider banning the physical punishment of children. The most important reason, according to Dr. Peter Newell, coordinator of the organization End Punishment of Children (EPOCH)1, is that "all people have the right to protection of their physical integrity, and children are people too."2

1. Hitting children teaches them to become hitters themselves. Extensive research data is now available to support a direct correlation between corporal punishment in childhood and aggressive or violent behavior in the teenage and adult years. Virtually all of the most dangerous criminals were regularly threatened and punished in childhood. It is nature's plan that children learn attitudes and behaviors through observation and imitation of their parents' actions, for good or ill. Thus it is the responsibility of parents to set an example of empathy and wisdom.

2. In many cases of so-called "bad behavior", the child is simply responding in the only way he can, given his age and experience, to neglect of basic needs. Among these needs are: proper sleep and nutrition, treatment of hidden allergy, fresh air, exercise, and sufficient freedom to explore the world around him. But his greatest need is for his parents' undivided attention. In these busy times, few children receive sufficient time and attention from their parents, who are often too distracted by their own problems and worries to treat their children with patience and empathy. It is surely wrong and unfair to punish a child for responding in a natural way to having important needs neglected. For this reason, punishment is not only ineffective in the long run, it is also clearly unjust.

3. Punishment distracts the child from learning how to resolve conflict in an effective and humane way. As the educator John Holt wrote, "When we make a child afraid, we stop learning dead in its tracks." A punished child becomes preoccupied with feelings of anger and fantasies of revenge, and is thus deprived of the opportunity to learn more effective methods of solving the problem at hand. Thus, a punished child learns little about how to handle or prevent similar situations in the future.

4. "Spare the rod and spoil the child", though much quoted, is in fact a misinterpretation of Biblical teaching. While the "rod" is mentioned many times in the Bible, it is only in the Book of Proverbs that this word is used in connection with parenting. In fact, King Solomon's harsh methods of discipline led his own son, Rehoboam, to become a tyrannical and oppressive dictator who only narrowly escaped being stoned to death for his cruelty. In the Bible there is no support for harsh discipline outside of Solomon's Proverbs. Jesus saw children as being close to God, and urged love, never punishment.3

5. Punishment interferes with the bond between parent and child, as it is not human nature to feel loving toward someone who hurts us. The true spirit of cooperation which every parent desires can arise only through a strong bond based on mutual feelings of love and respect. Punishment, even when it appears to work, can produce only superficially good behavior based on fear, which can only take place until the child is old enough to resist. In contrast, cooperation based on respect will last permanently, bringing many years of mutual happiness as the child and parent grow older.

6. Many parents never learned in their own childhood that there are positive ways of relating to children. When punishment does not accomplish the desired goals, and if the parent is unaware of alternative methods, punishment can escalate to more frequent and dangerous actions against the child.

7. Anger and frustration which cannot be safely expressed by a child become stored inside; angry teenagers do not fall from the sky. Anger that has been accumulating for many years can come as a shock to parents whose child now feels strong enough to express this rage. Punishment may appear to produce "good behavior" in the early years, but always at a high price, paid by parents and by society as a whole, as the child enters adolescence and early adulthood.

8. Spanking on the buttocks, an erogenous zone in childhood, can create in the child's mind an association between pain and sexual pleasure, and lead to difficulties in adulthood. "Spanking wanted" ads in alternative newspapers attest to the sad consequences of this confusion of pain and pleasure. If a child receives little parental attention except when being punished, this will further merge the concepts of pain and pleasure in the child's mind. A child in this situation will have little self-esteem, believing he deserves nothing better. For more on this topic, see "The Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children".

Even relatively moderate spanking can be physically dangerous. Blows to the lower end of the spinal column send shock waves along the length of the spine, and may injure the child. The prevalence of lower back pain among adults in our society may well have its origins in childhood punishment. Some children have become paralyzed through nerve damage from spanking, and some have died after mild paddlings, due to undiagnosed medical complications.

9. Physical punishment gives the dangerous and unfair message that "might makes right", that it is permissible to hurt someone else, provided they are smaller and less powerful than you are. The child then concludes that it is permissible to mistreat younger or smaller children. When he becomes an adult, he can feel little compassion for those less fortunate than he is, and fears those who are more powerful. This will hinder the establishment of meaningful relationships so essential to an emotionally fulfilling life.

10. Because children learn through parental modeling, physical punishment gives the message that hitting is an appropriate way to express feelings and to solve problems. If a child does not observe a parent solving problems in a creative and humane way, it can be difficult for him to learn to do this himself. For this reason, unskilled parenting often continues into the next generation.

Gentle instruction, supported by a strong foundation of love and respect, is the only truly effective way to bring about commendable behavior based on strong inner values, instead of superficially "good" behavior based only on fear.
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post #7 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-18-2002, 03:22 PM
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Use the rod, Beat the child.
(Or belt of knowledge...)
I agree, never out of anger.
But spanking is a biblical, most effective, way of displine.
I dont know that I would save it for a last resort either.
You will find your self tellingur kid something, and him not listen, and you tell him again, and he still doesnt listen and then you start counting, while your kid is running and screaming through the mall emmbarrassing you. You get the idea.

As aposed to a kid that knows a spanking will most allways be the result of disobeying.

To keep from looking like a tyrant through your kids eyes, you should be sure to always show them love when they are acting in your favor.


My 2 cents,
Im not married, but I am the oldest of 9 kids.
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post #8 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-18-2002, 03:31 PM
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I honestly don't have the time or energy to refute all these points, but my moral structure and what guides my decision-making as a parent is based on the Bible. So all this other psycho-babble is not relevent to how I live my life.

Those points you listed above are nothing new. And if you look at most of them, they have very little to do with spanking, but the bottom line is "do not punish".

Ok, so if we don't punish people when they are kids they grow up to be terrors of society, as they never obey any rules beyond what is "right for them". I am so sick of propping up wrong behavior in the schools and elsewhere, just to help a person's "self-esteem". That is not the real world. In the real world, if you screw up you get fired, go to jail, etc.

To refute his last point...sometimes my kids obey me out of fear (not b/c they think I won't still love them/care for them if they disobey, but b/c they know if they disobey they will indeed be punished). For a YOUNG child, why is that so bad? Would you rather allow little Johnny to dart out into the street without looking both ways first? And if he disobeys, nothing happens. Ok, eventually little Johnny figures out there is no reason to respect what his parents have to say, and he goes ahead and runs out in the street and gets mowed down. So much for his self-esteem.

Thing is, my parents were strict disciplinarians. They were _consistent_ with me. I knew what I could do, and what I could not. There was no guessing as to whether something was right or wrong. I am certainly not scarred for life b/c of it. I am not violent, angry, feel bad about myself, etc. Obviously, this is the result of Christ being in my life, but a strong, nurturing family can foster much of the same thing...and teach moral values that go beyond "do whatever you want if it feels good. We don't want to hurt your psyche".

As kids grow you want them to think for themselves more and more, and obey b/c it is "right", and not so much out of fear. I remember as a teenager not doing a bunch of mischevious stuff b/c 1) I was taught a healthy respect for the law and 2) I didn't want to let down my parents and 3) I was a bit nervous of the consequences (like getting my car taken away) if I got caught doing something I KNEW I shouldn't have been doing. I was _thinking_ about the consequences of wrong behavior. Without a punishment to consider, the consequences of wrong action are ... ZERO. Anarchy would rule the day.

Now, I'd like to ask this guy if he thinks if I had not been punished in some form as a younger child if I would have had this same attitude in my teen years. The answer is no. Learning boundaries and right from wrong requires discipline (using the word in both forms). It requires some self-discipline even now...otherwise, I'd do 100mph through my neighborhood in my Z06. Do you think the cop would just say, "oh, you had a bad day. That's alright. Take your nice car home and we'll just forget about this one." No, I'd get slapped with a huge fine, hauled off to jail and my car would get winched up (incorrectly, I'm sure) up onto a tow truck.

What a crock we are fed nowdays.

Lack of discipline and respect is a LOT of society's problem today.

Last edited by WA 2 FST; 10-18-2002 at 03:37 PM.
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post #9 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-19-2002, 03:22 PM
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The easy refute, to all of those statements... they're basing their study on violent adults, who were beaten as children. They're not basing it on average adults who received spankings as children.

The difference is, beating a child, and spanking a child are two wholly different things. Of course when they study violent adults, they're going to find evidence of beatings, neglect, abuse while they were children. How about you start interviewing normal adults who aren't violent, and see how many were spanked as children.

I totally agree with spanking when it's necissary, and definitely show the child that it hurts you to spank them, more than it hurts them to be spanked. In otherwords, when you spank, you do it out of love, and to teach a lesson. If you spank in anger, that's crossing the lines into beating, or abuse.

Grounding and time out, now a days has no effect on kids. Young kids are too young to comprehend the reason, and older kids have their own TV's, Phones, Computers, whatever in their rooms. You send them to their room, and they're not going to learn anything from it, because they're going to see it as doing what they were going to do anyway.

I honestly believe that this whole movement to stop spanking, and it's wide acceptance, is a major factor in why we see so much child violence lately. Kids that don't get spanked for doing something wrong, never learn that what they did was wrong, and grounding them sends the message that you just don't want them around.

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post #10 of 10 (permalink) Old 10-20-2002, 12:38 AM
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We spanked our kids when they were younger. As they
get older now to me it seems that spanking is no
longer appropriate punishment (ie: age appropriate)
although a capital offense will still merit a spanking.

Our kids are pretty well behaved although they have
friction between themselves (sisters, heh). Mom has
seen to manners and appropriate behavior as they
have grown up and some of it has actually stuck.

I see parents trying to reason with their younger
children - it's apparent the kid is in charge and gets
whatever he/she wants and the parent has no
control. I witnessed this in a Wendy's and after
the mom had absorbed about 20 minutes of abuse
from her little boy she carried him out side and he
began to hit her on the head and she did
nothing. Sad. She had absolutely no control over
her own child.

You must be the parent and be in a firm but loving
way over your children. If this merits punishment then
so be it. I still remember a few choice spankings I got
from dad and it _did_ change my ways.
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