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post #1 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 12:42 PM Thread Starter
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Once saved, always saved?

Something that I hear from time to time.
After being born again, is it possible to lose salvation?
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post #2 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 01:03 PM
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Re: Once saved, always saved?

Quote:
Originally posted by MadKat
Something that I hear from time to time.
After being born again, is it possible to lose salvation?
Nope! Christ accomplished it ONCE AND FOR ALL.

John 19:30 -- It is finished.

You cannot lose salvation just as you cannot gain it.

Ephesians 2:8-9 -- It is a gift from God...

Also read -- Ephesians 1 and Romans 8

Hope this helps!

Lee
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post #3 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 01:16 PM
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Haven't we already beat this topic up? lOL

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post #4 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 01:43 PM Thread Starter
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well I must have missed out on previouse discussions,
sorry to to bring up old news.

I know Christ payed for everyones sin once and for all.
But dont we have to accept it?
If once we are saved, we can never fall away, and we have no choice but to go to heaven, whats the point in living rightous?
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post #5 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 01:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadKat
I know Christ payed for everyones sin once and for all.
But dont we have to accept it?
we do!
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post #6 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadKat
If once we are saved, we can never fall away, and we have no choice but to go to heaven, whats the point in living rightous?
The point is simple:

1. We are a new creature in Christ Jesus with the Holy Spirit living in us...THAT is lots of motivation (not man made).
2. There are many blessings involved here on earth.
3. God will chastise you if you sin.
4. Sin will ruin your walk with God and cut you off from fellowship with him.
5. Heavenly rewards are at stake.


Shall I go on!
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post #7 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 01:50 PM
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Well, I believe once you have accepted Christ and you grow in Him you will never loose your faith unless you do not produce good fruit, then you will be cut off. I think salvation can be lost by sin and only by sin. If you keep sining and sining and never repent. Build up that wall around yourself and push Christ away. I think this is one reason that Christ pushes repentance so much. You can loose your salvation. But good fruit have nothing to worry about.
<---- my 2 cents

Last edited by 281R; 10-14-2002 at 01:56 PM.
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post #8 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 02:50 PM Thread Starter
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2nd Peter 2
For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overpowered, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, The dog turns back to his own vomit, and the sow is washed only to wallow in the mire.

Romans 11
19 You will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
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post #9 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 03:19 PM Thread Starter
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By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
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post #10 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 281R
Well, I believe once you have accepted Christ and you grow in Him you will never loose your faith unless you do not produce good fruit, then you will be cut off. I think salvation can be lost by sin and only by sin. If you keep sining and sining and never repent. Build up that wall around yourself and push Christ away. I think this is one reason that Christ pushes repentance so much. You can loose your salvation. But good fruit have nothing to worry about.
<---- my 2 cents
Then you believe in a Christ + works salvation.

There is Biblical support for God taking His own home early if we are not walking with Him. But you can be out of fellowship with the Lord and still have received the gift of salvation (e.g.: living a sinful lifestyle). IOW, you can have the gift of eternal life, but not have the many blessings (and no, I'm not talking financial, although that may be part of it) that come from a close and personal relationship with Christ while you are here on earth.

If you can lose your salvation due to sin, then that means you keep it (or gain it) in some way by doing good works or bearing fruit. This flies in the face of GRACE. Salvation is not of ourselves at all...it is a gift from God.

There IS such a thing as a "carnal" Christian (one who does not "walk the walk"). The Corinthian church was full of these types of people. They are all over in our society here in the US today. It's too bad, but it does not take their salvation away.

Otherwise, you'd better be going to confession the second before you die...or you never know if you're gonna be in heaven or not.

Not me. I am free from sin...which doesn't mean I don't sin anymore, but means I am free from the bondage it holds. In fact, being a slave to sin and ANYTHING it can hold over you is a slap in the Savior's face, IMHO. He doesn't want us to feel shame or guilt! He wants us to accept the free gift ONLY He can give (I know you agree with this).

That doesn't justify a sinful lifestyle of a born-again believer. In fact, we should be humbled and at the same time on fire to serve our Savior and King...but not b/c it gets us into heaven (speedpro50 gave some great reasons), b/c it doesn't.
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post #11 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by WA 2 FST


Then you believe in a Christ + works salvation.

There is Biblical support for God taking His own home early if we are not walking with Him. But you can be out of fellowship with the Lord and still have received the gift of salvation (e.g.: living a sinful lifestyle). IOW, you can have the gift of eternal life, but not have the many blessings (and no, I'm not talking financial, although that may be part of it) that come from a close and personal relationship with Christ while you are here on earth.

If you can lose your salvation due to sin, then that means you keep it (or gain it) in some way by doing good works or bearing fruit. This flies in the face of GRACE. Salvation is not of ourselves at all...it is a gift from God.

There IS such a thing as a "carnal" Christian (one who does not "walk the walk"). The Corinthian church was full of these types of people. They are all over in our society here in the US today. It's too bad, but it does not take their salvation away.

Otherwise, you'd better be going to confession the second before you die...or you never know if you're gonna be in heaven or not.

Not me. I am free from sin...which doesn't mean I don't sin anymore, but means I am free from the bondage it holds. In fact, being a slave to sin and ANYTHING it can hold over you is a slap in the Savior's face, IMHO. He doesn't want us to feel shame or guilt! He wants us to accept the free gift ONLY He can give (I know you agree with this).

That doesn't justify a sinful lifestyle of a born-again believer. In fact, we should be humbled and at the same time on fire to serve our Savior and King...but not b/c it gets us into heaven (speedpro50 gave some great reasons), b/c it doesn't.
Well explained! I like it...Lee
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post #12 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 04:05 PM Thread Starter
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James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

I think, in a way, grace is like any other gift.
It is a gift, and un earnded gift, true enough,
but like any other gift, you have to accept it.
and just like any other gift, you can throw it away.

There are many many places where it says the wicked will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
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post #13 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by WA 2 FST


Then you believe in a Christ + works salvation.

Matthew 7:17-23
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

If you are not living trying to produce good fruit, then you are not walking with Christ. I believe all it takes to get to heaven to believe in that Christ died for your sins. But faith is more than professing that Christ died for you, it is practiceing and useing the gift he gave you. From the beginning God gave men free will to obey Him or disobey Him. Why not now would He not give us the choice to keep our salvation or loose it? Just what I think.

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post #14 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 04:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadKat
James 2:14
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

I think, in a way, grace is like any other gift.
It is a gift, and un earnded gift, true enough,
but like any other gift, you have to accept it.
and just like any other gift, you can throw it away.

There are many many places where it says the wicked will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Both you and 281R are misinterpreting scripture in that the verses you have provided are speaking of UN-SAVED people. Someone that might have a said faith but not a TRUE faith. There are millions of SO-CALLED believers who say they know Jesus but it reality do not. These people will be cut down and cast into the lake of fire if they do not truely repent. Faith is a gift and you ahve to accpet once the Holy Spirit sheds light on your heart and gives you life (as we were dead in trespasses and sin). Once you accpet Christ, the living God moves into you heart. You cannot throw that away as you are now a new being in the Lord. God never in the Bible kicks a blood bought Son or Daughter out of His family.

Hope this helps!

Lee
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post #15 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 04:32 PM Thread Starter
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John 15: 4+

4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned


The word "remain" would not apply to the lost.
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post #16 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MadKat
John 15: 4+

4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned


The word "remain" would not apply to the lost.
good verse!

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post #17 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 04:41 PM
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Rev 3:14 `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness--the faithful and true--the chief of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I have known thy works, that neither cold art thou nor hot; I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So--because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to vomit thee out of my mouth;

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post #18 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 281R

If you are not living trying to produce good fruit, then you are not walking with Christ. I believe all it takes to get to heaven to believe in that Christ died for your sins. But faith is more than professing that Christ died for you, it is practiceing and useing the gift he gave you. From the beginning God gave men free will to obey Him or disobey Him. Why not now would He not give us the choice to keep our salvation or loose it? Just what I think.
I certainly believe that TRUE FAITH is _evidenced_ by works. As superpro50 said, there are plenty of people who claim to have faith. To be honest, I don't worry about going around judging whether one is truly a Christian or not (but evidence of good works is helpful, as man cannot see another man's heart...we know only God can do that).

I do NOT believe that sin, after you have accepted Christ as your Savior, will keep you out of heaven...or to speak directly to the subject, that you can lose your salvation. John 10:27-28 calls us "sheep" who cannot be "snatched out of My hand." Obviously, as sheep we follow our Master, but we can make mistakes. This doesn't mean we are not still sheep.

We know for a fact that we will never be "perfected" until we get our heavenly bodies later on in eternity. While we are certainly "new creatures" in Christ, and have received the Holy Spirit, unfortunately our flesh is weak, and we will succomb to it at times. This doesn't mean its right, but the blood of Christ covers it. If it doesn't, then the power of sin is greater than the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. That doesn't say much for our Savior.

Just like the topic of Election vs. Absolute Free will...I believe that whatever is most motivating for you is a good thing.

Nowhere in the Scripture is one told that you can accept Christ and then feel free to go on in a sinful lifestyle. The Apostle Paul states quite the contrary, and I am not trying to refute that.

I believe that it is only from God that I even have the ability to do good works (with proper motivation). Walking with Him, means I continue to grow and manifest my faith through my actions. But it is not the actions that save me, and if one falls away into sin (we all have areas we need to work on) that doesn't mean there is no fruit in that person's life.

Faith and works do go hand-in-hand, but only b/c we have faith in Christ first can we do any work that is considered "good" in God's eyes. There will be plenty of people who did lots of "good" things (of course, since we cannot see the heart, we'll never know the real motivation behind these deeds) that will be cast into hell someday.
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post #19 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
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I certainly believe that TRUE FAITH is _evidenced_ by works. As superpro50 said, there are plenty of people who claim to have faith. To be honest, I don't worry about going around judging whether one is truly a Christian or not (but evidence of good works is helpful, as man cannot see another man's heart...we know only God can do that).

I do NOT believe that sin, after you have accepted Christ as your Savior, will keep you out of heaven...or to speak directly to the subject, that you can lose your salvation. John 10:27-28 calls us "sheep" who cannot be "snatched out of My hand." Obviously, as sheep we follow our Master, but we can make mistakes. This doesn't mean we are not still sheep.

We know for a fact that we will never be "perfected" until we get our heavenly bodies later on in eternity. While we are certainly "new creatures" in Christ, and have received the Holy Spirit, unfortunately our flesh is weak, and we will succomb to it at times. This doesn't mean its right, but the blood of Christ covers it. If it doesn't, then the power of sin is greater than the sacrifice of Christ on the Cross. That doesn't say much for our Savior.

Just like the topic of Election vs. Absolute Free will...I believe that whatever is most motivating for you is a good thing.

Nowhere in the Scripture is one told that you can accept Christ and then feel free to go on in a sinful lifestyle. The Apostle Paul states quite the contrary, and I am not trying to refute that.

I believe that it is only from God that I even have the ability to do good works (with proper motivation). Walking with Him, means I continue to grow and manifest my faith through my actions. But it is not the actions that save me, and if one falls away into sin (we all have areas we need to work on) that doesn't mean there is no fruit in that person's life.

Faith and works do go hand-in-hand, but only b/c we have faith in Christ first can we do any work that is considered "good" in God's eyes. There will be plenty of people who did lots of "good" things (of course, since we cannot see the heart, we'll never know the real motivation behind these deeds) that will be cast into hell someday.
Very good statement!

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post #20 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 05:07 PM
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Three ways to interpret Jesus teaching on the vine and the branches...specifically vs. 6.

1) the burned branches are indeed Christians who have lost their salvation. (would be contrary to other scripture...specifically, John 3:16, 5:24, 10:28-29, Rom. 8:1).

2) burned branches are Christians who will lose rewards in heaven but not salvation when Christ judges the world (I Cor. 3:15).

3) the burned branches were those who professed Christ, but were not TRUE in their professions (e.g.: Judas Iscariot).

If you believe #2, then that opens up a topic regarding "inheriting the kingdom" vs. just being "in the kingdom" of Heaven.

I'm just throwing this out there...I think many times again it should be whatever motivates YOU to live a life serving our Lord Jesus.
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post #21 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 05:22 PM
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Quote:
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Rev 3:14 `And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness--the faithful and true--the chief of the creation of God;
Rev 3:15 I have known thy works, that neither cold art thou nor hot; I would thou wert cold or hot.
Rev 3:16 So--because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to vomit thee out of my mouth;

Was this church saved or lost?
See my post above regarding "inheriting the kingdom" vs. just being "in the kingdom" of Heaven. 1 Cor. 3:15 is one reference.

The church of Laodicea was very typical of what we see today in the US. Wealthy church, with lots of material stuff...and yet they had gotten really complacent. No passion for serving the Lord, or seeking His will. Unlike the other 6 churches, they get no commendation from Christ as He's speaking here. He is not pleased with them at all.

He loves them or He wouldn't exhort them to repent (v. 19). He stands at the door knocking. (v. 20)

Those of us who have been Christians for any amount of time know that our lives are so much better when we are in fellowship with Christ. When we are ignoring His commands, we are not in fellowship (we leave Him standing outside) with Him...but again, I do not believe that means we are now bound for Hell.

You can interpret v. 20 in two ways:

1) the church is full of non-Christians who have never accepted Christ as Savior.

or

2) the church is just out of fellowship with God.

If you believe #2, then you will want to consider whether ALL who enter heaven will "sit down with Me on My throne" (v. 21), or again whether there will be a reward system in heaven, where works done in Christ's name are counted and some are granted more than others.
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post #22 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 10:56 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by WA 2 FST
Three ways to interpret Jesus teaching on the vine and the branches...specifically vs. 6.

1) the burned branches are indeed Christians who have lost their salvation. (would be contrary to other scripture...specifically, John 3:16, 5:24, 10:28-29, Rom. 8:1).

I dont see a conflict.
John 3:16, 5:24, and Rom 8:1, refer to those who are still in Christ.

When Jesus talks about the vine and branches, the ones that are burned are no longer in Christ.

As for John 10, 28-29
True enough, no one can "take" us away, but but that doesnt me we cant walk away. Sheep were notorious for wandering away.

And yes Jesus comes looking for us, but we have to turn back to him.

Im not saying that one sin will drop your salvation, but If you turn away, and quit living for Him, you are no longer in the vine, and You will face judgement alone.
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post #23 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-15-2002, 06:36 AM
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Thumbs up

I'm smiling over here. It's good to see Christian people talking and knowing the scripture. NEway. That's all I have to say.

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post #24 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-15-2002, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
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Three ways to interpret Jesus teaching on the vine and the branches...specifically vs. 6.

3) the burned branches were those who professed Christ, but were not TRUE in their professions (e.g.: Judas Iscariot).
That one is right according to all of scripture!

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post #25 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-15-2002, 09:00 AM
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Originally posted by MadKat


I dont see a conflict.
John 3:16, 5:24, and Rom 8:1, refer to those who are still in Christ.

When Jesus talks about the vine and branches, the ones that are burned are no longer in Christ.

As for John 10, 28-29
True enough, no one can "take" us away, but but that doesnt me we cant walk away. Sheep were notorious for wandering away.

And yes Jesus comes looking for us, but we have to turn back to him.

Im not saying that one sin will drop your salvation, but If you turn away, and quit living for Him, you are no longer in the vine, and You will face judgement alone.
John 10:25-30
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one.

In reading the above scripture you can clearly see that Jesus makes it clear that unbelievers are not His sheep in the first place because His sheep know his voice and follow him! They follow Him. They follow Him.

Logic would lead to the point that those who don't hear His voice and follow Him might not be saved. Don't forget that there will be many who when judged say, "Have we not cast out demons, have we not done many miracles..." People that may seem as though they are saved, might not even be sheep!

Scripture can NEVER disagree with scripture and there are way to many scriptures that clearly state that once you are saved you are always saved.

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Romans 8:14-17
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Romans 6:20-23
For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


There are dozens more but I have no more time. I hope this helps. Be sure to never make the common mistake of interpreting scripture the way you feel it should be interpreted. You must take the whole bible and see if an interpretation makes sense.

Lee
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post #26 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-15-2002, 09:02 AM
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I dont see a conflict.
John 3:16, 5:24, and Rom 8:1, refer to those who are still in Christ.

When Jesus talks about the vine and branches, the ones that are burned are no longer in Christ.

As for John 10, 28-29
True enough, no one can "take" us away, but but that doesnt me we cant walk away. Sheep were notorious for wandering away.

And yes Jesus comes looking for us, but we have to turn back to him.

Im not saying that one sin will drop your salvation, but If you turn away, and quit living for Him, you are no longer in the vine, and You will face judgement alone.
You have to decide whether you believe that Jesus saves you, or whether you believe its Jesus + "works/etc". I maintain that you are tossing a lot of Scripture out (and Jesus' own profession as the true way to heaven) if you think you have to do something to earn salvation. This belief also dilutes Christ's work on the cross.

There are going to be two judgements in the end. One is for the unbelievers who are cast into Hell, and the other is for Christians and will be based upon our works/deeds done in Christ. This second "judgement" is not a Heaven/Hell issue, but will have to do with God's reward structure in Heaven itself.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with the fact that a Christian's life should bear fruit of some type...that we should ALL be growing/maturing in our walk with the Lord. But that growth (no matter how slow/fast) is not what gets us through the pearly gates someday.
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post #27 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-15-2002, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by WA 2 FST


You have to decide whether you believe that Jesus saves you, or whether you believe its Jesus + "works/etc". I maintain that you are tossing a lot of Scripture out (and Jesus' own profession as the true way to heaven) if you think you have to do something to earn salvation. This belief also dilutes Christ's work on the cross.

There are going to be two judgements in the end. One is for the unbelievers who are cast into Hell, and the other is for Christians and will be based upon our works/deeds done in Christ. This second "judgement" is not a Heaven/Hell issue, but will have to do with God's reward structure in Heaven itself.

Again, I'm not disagreeing with the fact that a Christian's life should bear fruit of some type...that we should ALL be growing/maturing in our walk with the Lord. But that growth (no matter how slow/fast) is not what gets us through the pearly gates someday.
Well Said!
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post #28 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-15-2002, 09:08 AM
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I dont see a conflict.
John 3:16, 5:24, and Rom 8:1, refer to those who are still in Christ.

When Jesus talks about the vine and branches, the ones that are burned are no longer in Christ.

As for John 10, 28-29
True enough, no one can "take" us away, but but that doesnt me we cant walk away. Sheep were notorious for wandering away.

And yes Jesus comes looking for us, but we have to turn back to him.

Im not saying that one sin will drop your salvation, but If you turn away, and quit living for Him, you are no longer in the vine, and You will face judgement alone.
WA 2 FST, I liked the statement above, but I still agree with MadKat. I just think their are good versus to support it.

1 Timothy 4
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1 Timothy 1
18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; 19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Revelation 3
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Romans 11
13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

John 15
1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Matthew 10
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

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post #29 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-15-2002, 06:10 PM Thread Starter
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Jesus says " MY sheep" "MY"....
If you turn away, you are no longer one of "His sheep"

Grace + works, does = salvation.
If you dont agree with this, you can start reading in James 2

No, you do not "earn" salvation.
But Faith with out works is in deed DEAD/Useless.
All the good works in the world will never get you into heaven,
if you have sin on you, unless you have grace.
Grace is by far what saves you.

But accepting Christ, and His grace, requires repentance,
Repentance being a change of heart and lifestyle.
With out the change, you are still lost,
If you change, and then fall away and never come back,
You will be like the branches that were burned.

The way I under stand it, there is heaven, and the lake of fire,
(Rev, 20:15) as our options.

And Im thinking most of the burning will take place in the latter.


If God sent angels to hell when they turned, and has prepared a lake of fire for Satan and his followers,
I dont think it will be any different for humans.
possibly even after we are in heaven...


I hope I havnt come across in an offensive way to anyone.
That was not the purpose of this thread.
Ive just been studying the idea, and wanted to see
if anyone esle had and other bible suport for the
"Onced saved, Always Saved" theory.

Every one seems to agree that living for Christ is something
we should all do, and that is what counts, reguardless as to wether or not it is a salvation issue.

Love everyone of ya,
in Chirst Jesus, our Lord.

Kat
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post #30 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-15-2002, 09:03 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by MadKat

Grace + works, does = salvation.
If you dont agree with this, you can start reading in James 2

[QUOTE]

You'd be surprised if you knew how much and how often I've read James...one of my favorite books.

And Scripture doesn't contradict itself, and James isn't contradicting Paul or anyone else regarding being saved by grace and grace alone. Obviously we have different interpretations of some of these passages in Scripture as far as who they apply to. I'm not going to go further into my own background/study...as we could have two seminary graduates debate each side of this topic.

But Grace + works = salvation is the reason we had the Reformation many centuries ago. Man thought he could get to heaven by doing/buying/etc his way into heaven and into God's favor. And that (not necessarily what you are saying) is appalling and is nothing short of spitting on Christ himself.

Quote:
Love everyone of ya,
in Chirst Jesus, our Lord. [/B]
Back at ya.
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post #31 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-16-2002, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by WA 2 FST


Back at ya.
I wouldnt say good works + Christ = salvation
I would say Christ = salvation
But I will say Christ + choice to refuse Him later on = damnation

If angels can refuse God even though they (and we) know He is there, and the angels go to hell b/c of it. Why couldnt we go to hell also by refusing Him after knowing Him?
As speedpro50 pointed out
"Romans 8:38-39
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

I see this as God saying that nothing can keep Him from loving
us. He loves all of us even the evil.

and also
"John 10:25-30
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one."

But none of the versus say anthing that we do not have the "choice" to refuse God's gift of salvation through Jesus Christ after we have received it.

As I pointed out above.
Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.


This verse is talking about he that overcomes will not have his name blotted out of the book of life. So how could you be taken out unless you were already in? Just my thoughts and interpretation..

Last edited by 281R; 10-16-2002 at 10:47 AM.
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post #32 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-18-2002, 08:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50


The point is simple:

1. We are a new creature in Christ Jesus with the Holy Spirit living in us...THAT is lots of motivation (not man made).
2. There are many blessings involved here on earth.
3. God will chastise you if you sin.
4. Sin will ruin your walk with God and cut you off from fellowship with him.
5. Heavenly rewards are at stake.


Shall I go on!
Also, and I don't have the bible in front of me so don't quote me for exactness, but the bible states after we have joined God there is a time of Crowns and Rewards. Basically the more you do your duties as a Christian the more crowns and rewards you recieve in Heaven. The less you do as a Christian the less you recieve.

The Mad Drunk
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post #33 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-19-2002, 09:06 AM
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well, after deep thought and consideration. And listening to Dr. Tony Evans
I am changing my mind from "once saved could be not always saved" to "once saved always saved". Reason why, is b/c accepting Christ (seriously) is a death to life experience. It is leaving everything else behind and putting Him first and following Him. When you accept Christ and Christ abides in you. The sinfull nature is dead. You have now overcomed sin w/ Christ because Christ abides in you. Yet we still sin after we are saved because our body is still in sinful condition. But when I sin, deep down I know that this is not the true me. Salvation is God's gift. Once we accept it, the sinful nature of our soul is dead! But I do believe what you do with your life will be the way you get rewarded in Heaven. God likes good works.

Man, I am glad Christmas is near. I love the time of season when it's Jesus's B-Day.

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Last edited by 281R; 12-19-2002 at 09:08 AM.
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post #34 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-19-2002, 09:21 AM
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Amen!
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post #35 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-19-2002, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 281R

Man, I am glad Christmas is near. I love the time of season when it's Jesus's B-Day.
Jesus was born in September though.
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post #36 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-19-2002, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
I'm smiling over here. It's good to see Christian people talking and knowing the scripture. NEway. That's all I have to say.
I'm smiling too! Shows me that even Christian people that talk and know the scripture can still have debates because the Bible can be confusing and contradicting. NEway. That's all I have to say.
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post #37 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-19-2002, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
I'm smiling too! Shows me that even Christian people that talk and know the scripture can still have debates because the Bible can be confusing and contradicting. NEway. That's all I have to say.
confusing but not contradicting. God dose not contradict Himself.

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post #38 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-20-2002, 02:39 PM
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There is some great reading / knowledge here. I'm learning something new too! Glad this topic is being rehashed...I find it the most interesting.

After a long two years of extreme trials and hardships, which I never discuss. The loss of two prized family members, one of which was the closest in my world next to Duff/Hailey, I turned away from Him. I am just now starting to come back around.

I feel ashamed for doing so but, even seeing so much worse in my lifetime and still holding to my faith, I was too weak this time and succumbed to indignance and anger. Laying blame - instead of realizing what was still available to me. The blessings I could still thank Him for...right here in front of me.

Sorry for babbling. Just enjoyed what I've been reading. I'm also just thankful that I quit wandering and that He found me again.

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post #39 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-20-2002, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Girls can too
There is some great reading / knowledge here. I'm learning something new too! Glad this topic is being rehashed...I find it the most interesting.

After a long two years of extreme trials and hardships, which I never discuss. The loss of two prized family members, one of which was the closest in my world next to Duff/Hailey, I turned away from Him. I am just now starting to come back around.

I feel ashamed for doing so but, even seeing so much worse in my lifetime and still holding to my faith, I was too weak this time and succumbed to indignance and anger. Laying blame - instead of realizing what was still available to me. The blessings I could still thank Him for...right here in front of me.

Sorry for babbling. Just enjoyed what I've been reading. I'm also just thankful that I quit wandering and that He found me again.
Here is something always to remember Nicole when ever things are going wrong and you feel like if God has abandonded you. (Which He really hasnt) Maybe He is just testing your patience?

Trials is test where God uses to test us and make us stronger.

Last edited by 281R; 12-20-2002 at 02:58 PM.
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post #40 of 40 (permalink) Old 12-20-2002, 05:16 PM
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The first time I met you Nic, I knew that there was something about you that I liked. You have a very good heart and a kind spirit about you. I am very glad to see that you are trying to hear from God and see what His purpose in life is for you. My wife and I will be praying for you, Duff and Hailey. We hope that you all have a very special Christmas this year.
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