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post #1 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-10-2002, 03:10 PM Thread Starter
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Originally posted by Monsoon X
The problem with the war in the middle east stems mostly from religious translations. While it is true that God promised great things to Ishmael he made his Covenant with Isaac. Muhammed and the Quoran's teahings clash with God. If he was spoken to by Gabriel then why is the things that he taught go against God's commandments in the Bible?

Honestly I don't consider myself the most religous person of my faith, so I cannot be for sure until I do some research but can you please tell me where Muhammed's teachings clash with God? Also how Muhammed's teachings go against God's commandments in the Bible?


Thanks.
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post #2 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-11-2002, 06:45 AM
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Questions for you to research in the Quoran

What does Islam teach about Adam and Eve?

What does Islam say about Jesus?

I'll just start there for now.

Last edited by Monsoon X; 10-11-2002 at 06:58 AM.
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post #3 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-11-2002, 09:24 AM
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Also Muslim's do not believe in the Trinity, and do not believe that modern translations of the Bible are the authentic and uncorrupted Word of God.

There are thousands of other "smaller" differences, but those are the major ones.
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post #4 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 09:09 AM
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In Quran 7:158, Muhammad asked people to follow him. Elsewhere in the Quran, Muhammad testified that Jesus was among those nearest to God, held in honor in this world and the hereafter (Quran 3:45). Muslims understand this to mean that Jesus was sinless and all-righteous, something that the early Muslims never claimed for Muhammad. In fact, in several Quranic passages (16:61; 40:55; 42:5, 30; 47:19; 48:1-2) we read that Muhammad was exhorted to seek forgiveness for his faults, that not a single living creature would be left on earth if God punished everyone for their wrongdoing, and that one of Muhammad's military victories served as an assurance of forgiveness of his sins, past and future. It is pointless for Muslims to argue for Muhammad's sinlessness or to compare him to Jesus, whom Muslims consider to be both sinless and alive in heaven, near to God right now. The contrast could be more sharply drawn by pointing out that Muhammad's grave is in Medina today, whereas Christ is alive in heaven with God.

In the Quran (2:253; 3:45-49; 4:158, 171; 5:49; 19:33; 89:22) it is noted that Jesus was called the Messiah; He was born of a virgin; He was among the righteous ones those nearest to God; He received strength from the Holy Spirit; He could give sight to the blind, cure lepers, and raise the dead; He prophesied His own death and resurrection; He was called a Word from God and a Spirit from God; and finally, He is coming back with thousands of angels to judge the world. All these characterizations add up to a powerful picture of a Christ who was more than a prophet, and on Quranic terms alone superior to Muhammad.

I have alway thought this was interesting and by using the above scripture references from the Quran, a Christian can easily walk a Muslim right into the Word of God sharing the verses to show to the Muslim that Jesus is "the holy Son of God" (Matt. 1:20, 21; Luke 1:32); that He was indeed sinless (2 Cor. 5:21); that in Jesus is true spiritual life and this life is the true light of men (John 1:4); and, finally, that Jesus Himself claimed to be the Light of the world (John 8:12) and it is in His light that we see light (John 1:9).

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post #5 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 12:06 PM
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I've been waiting for Mir, to do some research in the Quoran himself so we can talk about his findings. where'd he go?

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post #6 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 01:06 PM
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I dunno, but I to am eagerly awaiting some feedback!

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post #7 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50
In Quran 7:158, Muhammad asked people to follow him. Elsewhere in the Quran, Muhammad testified that Jesus was among those nearest to God, held in honor in this world and the hereafter (Quran 3:45). Muslims understand this to mean that Jesus was sinless and all-righteous, something that the early Muslims never claimed for Muhammad. In fact, in several Quranic passages (16:61; 40:55; 42:5, 30; 47:19; 48:1-2) we read that Muhammad was exhorted to seek forgiveness for his faults, that not a single living creature would be left on earth if God punished everyone for their wrongdoing, and that one of Muhammad's military victories served as an assurance of forgiveness of his sins, past and future. It is pointless for Muslims to argue for Muhammad's sinlessness or to compare him to Jesus, whom Muslims consider to be both sinless and alive in heaven, near to God right now. The contrast could be more sharply drawn by pointing out that Muhammad's grave is in Medina today, whereas Christ is alive in heaven with God.

In the Quran (2:253; 3:45-49; 4:158, 171; 5:49; 19:33; 89:22) it is noted that Jesus was called the Messiah; He was born of a virgin; He was among the righteous ones those nearest to God; He received strength from the Holy Spirit; He could give sight to the blind, cure lepers, and raise the dead; He prophesied His own death and resurrection; He was called a Word from God and a Spirit from God; and finally, He is coming back with thousands of angels to judge the world. All these characterizations add up to a powerful picture of a Christ who was more than a prophet, and on Quranic terms alone superior to Muhammad.

I have alway thought this was interesting and by using the above scripture references from the Quran, a Christian can easily walk a Muslim right into the Word of God sharing the verses to show to the Muslim that Jesus is "the holy Son of God" (Matt. 1:20, 21; Luke 1:32); that He was indeed sinless (2 Cor. 5:21); that in Jesus is true spiritual life and this life is the true light of men (John 1:4); and, finally, that Jesus Himself claimed to be the Light of the world (John 8:12) and it is in His light that we see light (John 1:9).

Lee
That could also be a good argument to the idea that God sent his message to many cultures, not just one, and the corruption of man ... while keeping the core message ... has altered the message.

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post #8 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 03:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf


That could also be a good argument to the idea that God sent his message to many cultures, not just one, and the corruption of man ... while keeping the core message ... has altered the message.
Not really DW. All it shows is another instance of someone taking the truth (God's inerrant word) and twisting it, changing up some things to start a whole new sect of religion. Uninspired by God, Muhammed wrote the Quran.
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post #9 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-14-2002, 05:05 PM
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True, true. I was going to continue with the fact that the Quar'an was written some 400 years after the Bible, but got distracted up here at work, and just left it as it was.

The point I was trying to make was in other religions (not stemming from Christianity), how the message is the same, but the interpretation is different.

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post #10 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-15-2002, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf
True, true. I was going to continue with the fact that the Quar'an was written some 400 years after the Bible, but got distracted up here at work, and just left it as it was.

The point I was trying to make was in other religions (not stemming from Christianity), how the message is the same, but the interpretation is different.

The message is not the same. If you read other points in Islam, Jesus was NOT God's Son and neither is he the way for salvation. Also the things Islam teaches directly clash with was Jesus taught.

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post #11 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-15-2002, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf
True, true. I was going to continue with the fact that the Quar'an was written some 400 years after the Bible, but got distracted up here at work, and just left it as it was.

The point I was trying to make was in other religions (not stemming from Christianity), how the message is the same, but the interpretation is different.
Just asw JC said, the message of Islam, Hinduism, etc. is NOT the same.
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post #12 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-15-2002, 05:54 PM
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You sure about that? Do some research. Put aside your predefined notions, and beliefs, and actually research what the core message of these other religions are. Compare those to the core message of the Bible (specifically the Old Testament, since that's God's original message).

There's no sense in my trying to show you, because you have to first be willing to see it for yourself.

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post #13 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-15-2002, 10:13 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50
It is pointless for Muslims to argue for Muhammad's sinlessness or to compare him to Jesus, whom Muslims consider to be both sinless and alive in heaven, near to God right now. All these characterizations add up to a powerful picture of a Christ who was more than a prophet, and on Quranic terms alone superior to Muhammad.

Where in the Quran does it say that Muhammad is ailve in Heaven near to God right now? If not not in the Quran, where did you get this info?

As far as Christ being superior to Muhammad? In Islam, we believe Christ to be a prophet just like Moses and Muhammad. Muhammad happend to the the last one. I don't recall in the Quran where Christ is superior to Muhammad (please explain).
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post #14 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-16-2002, 01:25 PM
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Mir- Islam teaches that Jesus was never crucified. It also teaches that Jesus was just a prophet. (that in itself is a direct clash against what the Bible teaches) It teaches that Jesus isn't the way of salvation. Acts 4:12 (among countless others) say otherwise.


If Muhammed was God's last prohet then God must be a liar. Islam makes Him a liar because The Koran says that Jesus wasn't God's Son.

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post #15 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-16-2002, 04:47 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
Mir- Islam teaches that Jesus was never crucified. It also teaches that Jesus was just a prophet. (that in itself is a direct clash against what the Bible teaches) It teaches that Jesus isn't the way of salvation. Acts 4:12 (among countless others) say otherwise.


If Muhammed was God's last prohet then God must be a liar. Islam makes Him a liar because The Koran says that Jesus wasn't God's Son.

The status of Jesus in the Qur'an

No less than 11 chapters of the Qur'an (out of 114) mention Jesus or his teachings. In fact one of the chapters is called Mariam (Mary), the mother of Jesus. The praise is not only given to Jesus, but to Jesus' family in to which he was born. The Qur'an does not question the virgin birth, and talks of it as one of the signs of Allah's ultimate power, and describes Jesus as a word from God, not the word from God. We are all vreated by the creative command of God ``be''. He is also a ``spirit'' from God, not the ``spirit'' of God.

In the Qur'an, Jesus is described as one of those whom is nearest to God. He is also described as a pure child, like all children (there is no concept of original sin in Islam). It also says that he is
strengthened by the Holy Spirit as were all prophets, and that he performed miracles by the permission of Allah, not by himself, and that his message was not different from that of other prophets, that is to worship the one true God, and the God of all humanity. Furthermore, it states that his mission was limited to the Israelites and not intended for the whole of mankind, in preparation of the message of mankind conveyed by Muhammad. The Qur'an also denounces the idea of the Trinity.

The Qur'an also acknowledges a conspiracy to destroy Jesus, but it says that he was not killed or crucified, but it so appeared to them. Even if however, Jesus was crucified, this would be no
different, since there were other prophets that were crucified - as John the Baptist was martyred.

Finally, the Qur'an indicates that there may in fact be two links - all prophets (Jesus included) told of one final prophet that God promised Abraham. We all know that Israelite prophets came from the second son of Abraham, what about his first son, Ishmael (Mohammed is a descendant of Ishmael)?
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post #16 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-18-2002, 02:22 PM
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Sorry, but I had to get in on this. I hope you do not mind. The bible vs the Qur'an. Where there are quite a few places they agree, here is where they disagree to name a few.

Bible
"And God said, let us make a man in our image, after our likeness." Genesis 1:26

Qur'an
"Say He is God, the One and Only God, the Eternal, Absolute. He begets not, nor is He begotten. And there is none like unto Him." Qur'an112:1-4

Bible
"For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day He RESTED, and
was REFRESHED" Exo. 31:17

Qur'an
"We have created the heavens and the earth, and everything between them in six day, and no fatigue touched us." Qur'an 50:38

I could go on forever, but about what you guys are talking about Jesus being the Messiah vs what the Qur'an says

Bible
God said to Jesus, "You are my son today I have begotten you" [Heb.5:5]
God said to David, "You are my son today I have begotten you"[Psalm2:7]

Qur'an
[19:88-95] They said, "The Most Gracious has begotten a son"! You have uttered a gross blasphemy. The heavens are about to shatter, the earth is about to tear asunder, and the mountains are about to crumble. Because they claim that the Most Gracious has begotten a son. It is not befitting the Most Gracious that He should beget a son. Every single one in the heavens and the earth is a servant of the Most Gracious. He has encompassed them, and has counted them one by one.All of them will come before Him on the Day of Resurrection as individuals.

Allah is NOT the God of the Holy Bible. The God of the Holy Bible has a Son. The Son of God gave His life to atone for the sins of mankind.

There are many more places where they Qur'an outrightly denies that Jesus is the son of God. In no way is that inclusive with what the bible teaches. There is no similarity here at all.

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post #17 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-18-2002, 05:11 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by QckCmbck
There are many more places where they Qur'an outrightly denies that Jesus is the son of God.

Did I ever say that the Quran says Jesus is the son of God?

Muslims believe in Jesus as a prophet just like Adam, Isaac, Ishmael, David, Moses, Muhammad, etc.
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post #18 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-19-2002, 04:07 PM
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The bible states that whoever believes that Jesus is the Son of God, that he died for our sins, that God raised him from the dead and He is sitting at the right hand of the Father will be saved and live eternally with Him. The Muslim teachings disagree with this. That in itself is the biggest and most important difference, everything else is just a side note.

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post #19 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-19-2002, 10:24 PM
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The bible states that whoever believes that Jesus is the Son of God, that he died for our sins, that God raised him from the dead and He is sitting at the right hand of the Father will be saved and live eternally with Him. The Muslim teachings disagree with this. That in itself is the biggest and most important difference, everything else is just a side note.
There you have it!
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post #20 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-21-2002, 09:40 AM
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Did I ever say that the Quran says Jesus is the son of God?

Muslims believe in Jesus as a prophet just like Adam, Isaac, Ishmael, David, Moses, , etc.
Nope, but my point was that Christian belief is that we are saved my Jesus alone. Without him we can't know the father because not one of us is worthy of it. Since we are on the subject I would like to point out how very different Jesus was from Muhammad and other profets. How could they possibly be serving the same God when,
Mohammed was the prophet of war; Christ is the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6-7).
Mohammed promoted persecution against the "infidels"; Christ forgave and converted the chief persecutor (1Timothy
1:13-15).Mohammed was the taker of life; Christ was the giver of life (John 10:27-28).Mohammed and his fellow warriors murdered thousands; Christ murdered none but saved many (compare John 12:48)Mohammed practiced FORCE; Christ preached FAITH (John 6:29, 35). Mohammed preached "Death to the infidels!"; Christ prayed "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke
23:34).
Mohammed declared a holy war (Jihad) against infidels; Christ achieved a holy victory on Calvary's cross (Colossians
2:14-15) and His followers share in that victory (John 16:33).Mohammed said the Koran is authoritative only in Arabic, and only in his dialect; The Bible is authoritative in many
languages around the world, for God knows all things and can inspire (and preserve) His Word in more than one language. Also, NO other profit has been named sinless except for Christ noone in the world for that matter.( According to the Bible.) If Mohammed was considered a prophet like Christ then why did he rape many women and kill thousands of innocent people. You never hear of Christ doing anything remotely close to this. Although I respect your beliefs you are aloud to by the Christian way believe whatever you chose because we have free will to chose whatever we believe to be right. But because I believe in Christ, the trinity etc. I cannot let my father be put on the same pedistool as a murderer/rapist and not stick up for him at all. That is my free will.

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post #21 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-21-2002, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
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Nope, but my point was that Christian belief is that we are saved my Jesus alone. Without him we can't know the father because not one of us is worthy of it. Since we are on the subject I would like to point out how very different Jesus was from Muhammad and other profets. How could they possibly be serving the same God when,
Mohammed was the prophet of war; Christ is the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6-7).
Mohammed promoted persecution against the "infidels"; Christ forgave and converted the chief persecutor (1Timothy
1:13-15).Mohammed was the taker of life; Christ was the giver of life (John 10:27-28).Mohammed and his fellow warriors murdered thousands; Christ murdered none but saved many (compare John 12:48)Mohammed practiced FORCE; Christ preached FAITH (John 6:29, 35). Mohammed preached "Death to the infidels!"; Christ prayed "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke
23:34).
Mohammed declared a holy war (Jihad) against infidels; Christ achieved a holy victory on Calvary's cross (Colossians
2:14-15) and His followers share in that victory (John 16:33).Mohammed said the Koran is authoritative only in Arabic, and only in his dialect; The Bible is authoritative in many
languages around the world, for God knows all things and can inspire (and preserve) His Word in more than one language. Also, NO other profit has been named sinless except for Christ noone in the world for that matter.( According to the Bible.) If Mohammed was considered a prophet like Christ then why did he rape many women and kill thousands of innocent people. You never hear of Christ doing anything remotely close to this. Although I respect your beliefs you are aloud to by the Christian way believe whatever you chose because we have free will to chose whatever we believe to be right. But because I believe in Christ, the trinity etc. I cannot let my father be put on the same pedistool as a murderer/rapist and not stick up for him at all. That is my free will.

Are you sure you are not Jerry Falwell posting up, because those are nearly the same things he said on 60 minutes a few weeks back.


Mohammed was the prophet of war

--He never incited war....but did in fact tried to keep peace. Early muslims did participate in wars, but that's hardly being a "prophet of war"

Mohammed promoted persecution against the "infidels

--No....he treated Non-Muslims equal to if not better than Muslims.

Mohammed was the taker of life

--No...

Mohammed and his fellow warriors murdered thousands

--I wouldn't call it murder.....if you are referring to wars...then people did die, from both sides.

Mohammed practiced FORCE

--No....He was a man of Peace.

Mohammed preached "Death to the infidels"

--No...

Mohammed declared a holy war (Jihad) against infidels

--No...

Mohammed said the Koran is authoritative only in Arabic, and only in his dialect

--That was the only language spoken in those times in that area of the world.

If Mohammed was considered a prophet like Christ then why did he rape many women and kill thousands of innocent people

--Never did he rape any women

I cannot let my father be put on the same pedistool as a murderer/rapist and not stick up for him at all.

I suggest you give me facts to the questions.....I understand you wanting to stand up for Jesus...I do to, but as a prophet. I obviously don't like the fact you called my prophet a rapist, murderer, taker of life, persecuter, prophet of war.
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post #22 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-21-2002, 05:26 PM
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Okay let me tag this here

On Rape
FROM THE QURAN - 23:5,6
"...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave girls, for these are lawful to them..."
FROM THE QURAN - 33:50
"Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty;..."This verse is for Muhammad. Supposedly, God allows Muhammad to have sex with his slave girls. "He (Muhammad) used to visit her (Mariyam) there and ordered her to veil herself, he had intercourse with her by virtue of her being his property, but he did not marry her."
Think about it from the women's point of view. Here you have a battle where her side lost, most of her family is dead, Husbands, fathers, sons etc. Her and her children are taken captive, and now their captors are in total control. Then here comes her captor horny as all hell, Do you think this female slave WILLINGLY had intercourse with her captor? Do you really think that was her wish?
Especially with a man that brought that disaster upon her? I think not!! Muslims did not need to have the female slave's permission to have intercourse with her. The slaves were not given a choice even if those women were married. (Qu'ran 4:3)

On murder

"...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Qu'ran 2:191)( Note an infidel is a person not pratcing the faith you believe in. ) It is right to kill them because? "Strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; and after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Qu'ran 47:4). (Muhammad was a man of PEACE??) "Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place" (Qu'ran 9:38-39). So now the Qu'ran tells me that Allah will punish you if you do not kill the disbelievers? Oh, but wait... "It is not us who slay them but Allah, in order that He might test the Believers by a gracious trial from Himself."(Qu'ran 8:17) Let me get this straight, now Allah is killing them ?

Seriously and I am not being rude at all. If you are going to contradict anything that I write, please allow me to look at it from your point of view by telling me where these things are stated in the Qu'ran so that I may look them up for myself and have correct information at hand.

The Mad Drunk
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post #23 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-22-2002, 07:23 AM
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Mir- The Islam that is portrayed here in the West is vastly different than the one in the East. Why? Because Muslims know that kind of teachings won't fly over here.

Muhammed was a teacher of peace, only when he was in Mecca. Because he was poor and weak, and was trying to be accepted. Upon moving to Medina all of his teachings taught of Jihad and the like. You have to compare the Mecca and Median Surahs to see his change in ideaology.

Mir- You are getting the Western version the "Facade" that Islam is giving us over here.

Here are some of the real teachings of Islam:

A man may punish his wife by beating her (Surah 4:34)
A Muslim must not take a Jew or a a Christian for a friend (surah 5:51).
Heaven in Islam is the place where a Muslim will be reclining, eating meats and delicious fruits, drinking exquisite wines, and engaging in sex with virgins (surah 55:54- 56) &
(surah 52:17,19).
A man may marry up to four wives at the same time (surah 4:3).

If Muhammed "claims" to be a divine prophet from "God" and even the Islam religion uses text from the Bible, yet flat out denies Jesus as the Son of God and as the author and finisher of out Salvation then this religion is a fake spin-off thought up by Muhammed And it makes God a liar. It totally contradicts the true Word of God. God would not send Jesus to teach love and to save us all only to send Muhammed to teach us to practice Jihad, beat out wives and send totally contradicting words from the message in the Bible.

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post #24 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-30-2002, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
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Here are some of the real teachings of Islam:

A man may punish his wife by beating her (Surah 4:34)
A Muslim must not take a Jew or a a Christian for a friend (surah 5:51).
Heaven in Islam is the place where a Muslim will be reclining, eating meats and delicious fruits, drinking exquisite wines, and engaging in sex with virgins (surah 55:54- 56) &
(surah 52:17,19).
A man may marry up to four wives at the same time (surah 4:3).
Wow
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post #25 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-30-2002, 12:58 PM
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For argument sake, this is what they say:

Surah 4 : 34
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because God has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in absence what God would have them guard.
As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means:

Surah 5 : 51
O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.

Surah 55 : 54-56
54. They will recline on Carpets whose inner linings will be of rich brocade: the Fruit of the Gardens will be Near.
55. Then which of the favors of your Lord will ye deny?
56. In them will be (Maidens) Chaste restraining their glances whom no man or Jinn before them has touched

Surah 52 : 17-19
17. As to the Righteous they will be in Gardens and in Happiness
18. Enjoying the (Bliss) which their Lord hath bestowed on them and their Lord shall deliver them from the Penalty of the Fire.
19. "Eat and drink ye with profit and health because of your deeds."

Surah 4 : 1
If you fear that you cannot treat orphans with fairness, then you may marry other women that seem good to you: two, three or four of them.

Surah 4 : 3
Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially.

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post #26 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-30-2002, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
Surah 4 : 1
If you fear that you cannot treat orphans with fairness, then you may marry other women that seem good to you: two, three or four of them.

Surah 4 : 3
Try as you may, you cannot treat all your wives impartially.
"..or 6, or 7, or 10..."

I joke with my wife wondering what happened to that from the Old Testament - how many wives did David and Solomon have? When did that end anyway? She just goes
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post #27 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-30-2002, 03:25 PM
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Originally posted by Monsoon X

A man may punish his wife by beating her (Surah 4:34)
A Muslim must not take a Jew or a a Christian for a friend (surah 5:51).
Heaven in Islam is the place where a Muslim will be reclining, eating meats and delicious fruits, drinking exquisite wines, and engaging in sex with virgins (surah 55:54- 56) &
(surah 52:17,19).
A man may marry up to four wives at the same time (surah 4:3).
To be fair, there are quite a bit of Old Testament quotes that could be equal in the severity of some of the teachings of Islam.
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post #28 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-31-2002, 11:19 AM
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To be fair, there are quite a bit of Old Testament quotes that could be equal in the severity of some of the teachings of Islam.
Sure, there's some harsh stuff in the OT(for adultery, homosexuality, murder, incest, etc.), but can Muslim men - now - just beat their wives as 'punishment' for whatever reason? That sounds like 'open season' for wife(s) beating..

Y2KWS6?
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post #29 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-31-2002, 02:55 PM
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Christians don't beat their wives

I beg to differ.
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post #30 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-31-2002, 03:01 PM
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Christians don't beat their wives

I beg to differ.
The key here is the FACT that Christians who beat their wives are human, imperfect and aweful for doing it. But it is the man that does it, not the faith. I would second guess a Christians faith if they beat their wife as well, not to say that it can't happen. Again it is the man not Christianity and surely not what Christ stands for! To many people say, "look at those hypocrites, those Christians going to church and talkig about Jesus and they curse and drink and steal." While this may be the case with some Christians, it is because we are all human. Christians can do anything a lost person can do at any time.

Lee
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post #31 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-31-2002, 03:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
Christians don't beat their wives

I beg to differ.
The bible says the men are to love their wifes as Christ loved the church. It says nothing about beating them.

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post #32 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-31-2002, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50
Christians can do anything a lost person can do at any time.
Of course they can. They do it all the time.

Flame away, but that is part of the reason I have my doubts about Christianity - the high level of hypocrisy. The Bible is full of ways to live your life with the peacefulness and love of your fellow man that you should have. However, the little footnote at the end is what ruins it - accept Jesus Christ as your savior and all your sins - no matter how bad - are forgiven!

Yes, I have a real problem with this. A serial murderer who has accepted Jesus Christ into his life gets to go to heaven, while a Jewish man that has worked hard to help his family survive gets to burn in hell? I just don't think so. It doesn't make any sense!

Ever heard of the Spanish Inquisition? If not, here's a brief synopsis:
In the early years of the 16th century, to combat the rising tide of religious unorthodoxy, the Pope gave Cardinal Ximinez of Spain leave to move without let or hindrance throughout the land, in a reign of violence, terror and torture - does that sound like a good Christian idea? Are the leaders of the Spanish Inquisiton in heaven now? They most certainly DID accept JC into their lives. Hope they don't chop off your heads in heaven! LOL
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post #33 of 40 (permalink) Old 10-31-2002, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird

Yes, I have a real problem with this. A serial murderer who has accepted Jesus Christ into his life gets to go to heaven, while a Jewish man that has worked hard to help his family survive gets to burn in hell? I just don't think so. It doesn't make any sense!

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You see, salvation is a gift from God through His Son Jesus. There is nothing that we can do to earn our own salvation. What is so hard about accepting that? Why are you letting hipocrytes in the church make your decisions for you, because that is what you are saying. I know there are hipocrytes, but I live my life the way I feel God wants me to (even though I make mistakes daily) and leave them to God. I think you need to do the samething and forget what others are doing or saying.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

See, everyone at one time or another has sinned. No matter how small it is, it could be alittle lie or just wishing someone was dead. It is all the same. A sin is a sin in the eyes of God, and He judges everyone the same. But He has given everyone a way out. His Son died so we dont have to. All we have to do is accept it and by His grace and mercy we will be saved. No one says that we have to be perfect, because we cant be, we just have to strive to be the best that we can.

Dude, if I am wrong, what have I or anyone else lost? Nothing, worse case, I lived a good life. But, if I am right, (and I am sure that I am) I have gained eternal life. That is something that I want, and I am sure that deep down wheather you believe or not you want it also.

Think about it man, I am not trying to slam you or make you believe, I cant make anyone believe but just think about what I am saying.

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post #34 of 40 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 11:12 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lane
Sure, there's some harsh stuff in the OT(for adultery, homosexuality, murder, incest, etc.), but can Muslim men - now - just beat their wives as 'punishment' for whatever reason? That sounds like 'open season' for wife(s) beating..

Y2KWS6?

Lane,

In terms of being human, things always happen whether allowed by religion or not, the fact is we all are humans and we will err in our ways. There are those folks from all religions that are Conservative, Moderate, and Liberal plus others in between all of those categories. I consider myself between Moderate and Liberal, leaning towards Moderate. Like with the Old Testament and the The Quran, those texts were written a long time back. I for one have to take some of that info with a grain of salt to make it apply to today's times.

Mir Naziruddin
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post #35 of 40 (permalink) Old 11-06-2002, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Y2K_WS6_T/A



Lane,

In terms of being human, things always happen whether allowed by religion or not, the fact is we all are humans and we will err in our ways. There are those folks from all religions that are Conservative, Moderate, and Liberal plus others in between all of those categories. I consider myself between Moderate and Liberal, leaning towards Moderate. Like with the Old Testament and the The Quran, those texts were written a long time back. I for one have to take some of that info with a grain of salt to make it apply to today's times.

Mir Naziruddin
Mir,

The problem with what you said, is that Jesus has now come and we have the New Testament which is called a better covenant. We are no longer under the traditions and OT law. The Quran can not say this however as Jesus is not the only begotten Son of God. How do you take multiple wives or beating your wife into submissions with a grain of salt. That is crazy!

Lee
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post #36 of 40 (permalink) Old 11-07-2002, 10:40 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50
How do you take multiple wives or beating your wife into submissions with a grain of salt. That is crazy!

Lee


Lee,

My overall point was what was considered allright back in those times may not be necessarily considered right in today's times.


Mir
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post #37 of 40 (permalink) Old 11-12-2002, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Y2K_WS6_T/A




Lee,

My overall point was what was considered allright back in those times may not be necessarily considered right in today's times.


Mir
Mir - how could this have EVER been considered right? Neither in the OT or NT of the Bible, did God allow for this.

I'm not saying it didn't happen in Christian or Jewish homes, but that's not the point here.
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post #38 of 40 (permalink) Old 11-12-2002, 09:46 AM
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the Bible showed peoples lives in the good and the bad. Lets not take the bad and make it ok or make a mockery just b/c it is in the Bible.

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post #39 of 40 (permalink) Old 11-12-2002, 11:18 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lane


Mir - how could this have EVER been considered right? Neither in the OT or NT of the Bible, did God allow for this.

I'm not saying it didn't happen in Christian or Jewish homes, but that's not the point here.

Lane,


Honestly I don't know the answer to that one. There are people with different thoughts on the subject, but you and I agree that it is wrong to strike a woman. Also, just because it says men can hit a woman, doesn't mean that everyone will or does. I for one will not ever strike a woman for any reason whatsoever.

Mir
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post #40 of 40 (permalink) Old 11-12-2002, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Y2K_WS6_T/A



Lane,


Honestly I don't know the answer to that one. There are people with different thoughts on the subject, but you and I agree that it is wrong to strike a woman. Also, just because it says men can hit a woman, doesn't mean that everyone will or does. I for one will not ever strike a woman for any reason whatsoever.

Mir
Good for you Mir.

However, I really empathize(sp?) for the women who are with muslim men that feel differently than you... As bad a problem as abuse is in places where it's morally and socially wrong - I can only imagine how bad it would be in an environment where technically - it's ok...
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