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post #1 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-25-2002, 11:04 AM Thread Starter
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interesting topic!

what are everyones views on once in grace always in grace. this one aught to be interesting.
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post #2 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-25-2002, 11:13 AM
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Re: interesting topic!

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Originally posted by JohnStang
what are everyones views on once in grace always in grace. this one aught to be interesting.
john
Once saved always saved. The Holy Spirit takes up residence in your heart (Romans 8) and you are permanently sealed unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 1 and 2). Jesus accomplished it all and in full (John 19:30) and once saved although we still sin, we are a new creation in Him and cannot go back. We can upon being saved continue to live in the flesh, not allowing the Spirit to work through us. This is just a bit of a huge discussion.

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post #3 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-25-2002, 12:38 PM
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I believe that once saved there is only one way lose it. I am sure it is very rare. But, you can only lose salvation if you willfully reject God, after knowing God. Then God will turn you over to a reprobate(sp) mind.
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post #4 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-25-2002, 02:56 PM Thread Starter
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i believe that you can "backslide" and you can "go back into the world". if you reject God and continue to sin and live your life without him then you can give back your salvation. and to get it back you must give your life back to God.
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post #5 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-25-2002, 02:58 PM
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StangTamer and JohnStang:

What scripture do you guys have to support your beliefs here. I am interested to chat about it in more detail. I just need to know where you get the info from.

Thanks,

Lee
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post #6 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-25-2002, 06:15 PM
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I don't believe you can backslide and lose your salvation. I believe that you can get so deep in your sin that it will harden your heart towards God and will lead you to a place where you will reject God. I believe if you flat out reject God under a sound mind, you cannot be/will not ever be saved. But there are laws upon this. If you are not born again, and renounce God there is still a way to salvation. But, if you are truely born again and have walked in the spirit with God, then later renounce God you can't comeback. I think it is hard to do this. It is not like say for example, you get mad at God and say,I hate you and don't want anything to do with you again. Then you feel convicted and repent. That is not the renouncing I am saying. If you truely renounce God you will not have any conviction and will not want to come back. I do not believe you can get "Born Again, Again". The person that renounces God and can't comeback is the person that knows God is real and knows they're going to hell.



Quote:
2Cor.13 [5] Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
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[6] But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.
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[7] Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.
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Tit.1[16] They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Quote:
[28] And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
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[29] Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
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[30] Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
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[31] Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
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[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

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post #7 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-26-2002, 08:53 AM
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I know many of the scriptures you speak of in Romans chapters 1-3 speaking of sin and reprobates. It is clear however in Romans 1 that a reprobate is a LOST person in total bondage to sin that hasn't any more chances to be saved. God shuts the door. I do not see however how you can relate that to a saved person already inhabited by the Holy Spirit.

Lee
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post #8 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-26-2002, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50
I know many of the scriptures you speak of in Romans chapters 1-3 speaking of sin and reprobates. It is clear however in Romans 1 that a reprobate is a LOST person in total bondage to sin that hasn't any more chances to be saved. God shuts the door. I do not see however how you can relate that to a saved person already inhabited by the Holy Spirit.

Lee
I guess I should have put the reasoning for the scriptures.lol God is not a respecter of persons, but he is a respecter of faith. I believe you(speedpro) are truely saved. But, if you backslide and got so deep into sin to where you came to the point of renouncing your salvation, though knowing God is real and that you would go to Hell. Do you think God would not honor that? I believe that is where God turns you over to a reprobate mind and leaves you. The reason God sent Jesus is for the sinner. If God left the reprobate, he would have to be there in the first place right? Before you were saved and you were living in the flesh, was God with you?
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post #9 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-26-2002, 12:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by StangTamer


I guess I should have put the reasoning for the scriptures.lol God is not a respecter of persons, but he is a respecter of faith. I believe you(speedpro) are truely saved. But, if you backslide and got so deep into sin to where you came to the point of renouncing your salvation, though knowing God is real and that you would go to Hell. Do you think God would not honor that? I believe that is where God turns you over to a reprobate mind and leaves you. The reason God sent Jesus is for the sinner. If God left the reprobate, he would have to be there in the first place right? Before you were saved and you were living in the flesh, was God with you?
2 things:

1. I belive you can be saved and still live in the flesh. Romans 8:1

2. My thoughts on the "saved" person backsliding and gettting soooo deep in sin, etc. Was the person truly born again in the 1st place?
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post #10 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-26-2002, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50


2 things:

1. I belive you can be saved and still live in the flesh. Romans 8:1

2. My thoughts on the "saved" person backsliding and gettting soooo deep in sin, etc. Was the person truly born again in the 1st place?
1. I believe that too.

2. Yes, that person would have been truely born again in the first place. But like I said, I think it is very rare that this happens. I believe God will honor someone who wants to break fellowship with him under a sound mind. I believe what happens in these rare occasions is they will live in sin and it hardens their heart. But, other than that I don't believe you can lose your salvation.
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post #11 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-30-2002, 08:41 AM
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I understand your above comments but the question is how can a true believer with the Spirit of God inside and a sound mind desire to break his relationship off with God? I would say he wasn't saved in the first place!
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post #12 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-30-2002, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50
I understand your above comments but the question is how can a true believer with the Spirit of God inside and a sound mind desire to break his relationship off with God? I would say he wasn't saved in the first place!

Well, I believe what happens is they get on the wrong track by hanging out with the wrong crowd years after they were saved. Then they come to a place where they want the fruits of sin more than the fruits of God. There could be a number of things that could cause them to renounce God. It boggles me how someone could do something like that. I don't believe you can lose your salvation, I just believe that you can give it up.
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post #13 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-30-2002, 10:33 AM
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Have ya'll considered this, Gentlemen?

2Peter 2:20-2220 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," F8 and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

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post #14 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-30-2002, 11:01 AM
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Yep, I have.

That verse is commonly used in a discussion like this, and is often mis-interpreted. The verse is clearly saying (just as Jesus said to the pharisees), that a person who is RELIGIOUS, doing acts of religion (good deeds, involved in church), will be worse of in the end. It is when you taste of the knowledge, reject it at heart, yet LOOK like your living it. It is knowledge without relatioship!

Other verses to read:

Matthew 23:25-36
Mark 16:17-18

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post #15 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-30-2002, 12:21 PM
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Question

So are you saying it doesn't have a place in this discussion?

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post #16 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-30-2002, 12:25 PM
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About grace and security of the believer, that verse doesn't apply. About religious people living as though they are a true believer, yet having no relationship with Christ is another topic. Hope this helps. I was previously responding to comments pertaining to a child of God losing or forfitting his salvation, something I do not agree with.
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post #17 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-30-2002, 12:47 PM
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Yeah, I know what you guys are talking about and I thought this verse would sum it up pretty good. (Actually all of 2Peter 2)


It goes to explain (pretty much what you said) that it is better to have not known the knowledge of Christ than to have known it and to turn from it.

It gives a parallel of the angels that sinned and how they have been chained.

But I believe you guys are getting caught up in wordplay. Once you accept Jesus' sacrifice you are and will be forever covered. Now this does not mean that you cannot go to hell. But if you realize that you have been away from God you can come back and be forgiven because you are forever covered (when you were baptized) by Jesus' blood. Romans Ch. 5 and 6

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post #18 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-30-2002, 12:50 PM
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.........particularly Romans 5:21-Ch.6:23

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post #19 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-30-2002, 01:11 PM
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But I believe you guys are getting caught up in wordplay. Once you accept Jesus' sacrifice you are and will be forever covered. Now this does not mean that you cannot go to hell. But if you realize that you have been away from God you can come back and be forgiven because you are forever covered (when you were baptized) by Jesus' blood. Romans Ch. 5 and 6
I strongly disagree with your statement JC, as it contradicts the Word.

Romans 6:22-23
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians 1:7-9
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself.

Ephesians 1:13-14
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

1. Covered is not a word used in the Bible speaking of our salvation. Ephesians 1:13 however uses the word "sealed" and it goes on to say that we are sealed unto the day of redemption, not until we screw up.
2. To say that an action of mine can cause me to go to hell even though I am saved (covered as you used), is incorrect. If I can do something to lose it, then I must be able to do something to gain it. Obviously, Jesus makes it clear that he did it all. It is not me it is Him!
3. The very scripture you used Romans 5 and 6 directly contradicts your statement above. The blood of Jesus cleanses and saves you once and for all.

I have never seen a scripture that indicated in any way that a believer can lose his salvation. I would of course consider it if I had seen one somewhere along the line.

Lee
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post #20 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-30-2002, 01:47 PM
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Lee- How am I contradicting the Bible? I don't get it.

I said that Jesus' blood covers our sins. "You say it cleanses us from Sin." What's the difference? Unless you are saying that as Christians we can't sin. Which I'm sure you're not saying.


Christians struggle with the flesh and sin daily. Our sins are still sins in Gods eyes the only difference now is that we are forgiven through Jesus' atonement for us.

Question for you:

So can a Christian willingly sin and follow a false teacher and still go to Heaven without changing their ways?

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post #21 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-30-2002, 01:58 PM
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Of course Christ's blood cleanses us from sin. I don't disagree there. The key to where you and I differ is that is is once and for all and there is nothing you can do to change that.

Lee
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post #22 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-30-2002, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X

Question for you:

So can a Christian willingly sin and follow a false teacher and still go to Heaven without changing their ways?
What difference is sinning by willingly following a false teacher or smoking dope willingly or cursing or cheating on a test? What if you are smoking a cigarette in your car and a car hits you and you die? Of course if you are saved you will go to heaven!
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post #23 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-30-2002, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50


What difference is sinning by willingly following a false teacher or smoking dope willingly or cursing or cheating on a test? What if you are smoking a cigarette in your car and a car hits you and you die? Of course if you are saved you will go to heaven!

Let me turn that on you. If you got caught up and killed someone after seeing them murder your family. And the cops came and shot you. Would you go to heaven?

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post #24 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-30-2002, 02:52 PM
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Of course...sin is sin in God's eyes.

There is 1 unforgivable sin, the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Lee
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post #25 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-30-2002, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50
Of course...sin is sin in God's eyes.

There is 1 unforgivable sin, the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

Lee

hmmmm. You know what you are suggesting is really deep. I've pondered it and I still am. Very interesting.

JC

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post #26 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-30-2002, 03:04 PM
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this is very interesting and fun to go back and forth with. I enjoy hearing the different views and discussing them. It proves to be a learning experience for us all!
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post #27 of 35 (permalink) Old 09-30-2002, 03:15 PM
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I have to agree with speedpro on this. I don't have the verse off hand. But I am sure you guys know the one I am talking about. It says something to the effect of, "as a sinner all of your righteousnesses were as filthy rags." I believe you can look at that just the opposite, once you are born again your sins are as filthy rags. I don't believe that there is anyway to earn salvation and there is no way you can lose it, unless for some dumb reason you renounce God. Which I believe God would honor. I think a prime example could be Judas.
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post #28 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-01-2002, 12:21 AM Thread Starter
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speedpro, i like your examle, but are you say that if i am saved and i go and rob a grocery store and get shot and die in the process or am drunk and die in a car crash, because i am saved i will go to heaven? i know i am not the judge, but i am not sure if i would still go to heaven. this is one of those i wonder about all the time, you guys bring up some GREAT verses to support your belifs and this will help me to better settle my views.
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post #29 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-01-2002, 06:39 AM
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Smile

Okay, last night I studied, wondered, prayed and pondered.


And I have come to this conclusion:
I agree with Lee in the sense that once you have obtained salvation it is impossible to lose it. But I do believe you can forfeit it and become entangled in the defilments of the world. (Ex. Judas, or the subject of 2 Peter 2:20, 2 Peter 2:15Forsaking the right way, they went astray)


James speaks to the saved, exhortations to be cautious and to make sure we have faith and deeds. Basically to keep focused on how we are to behave as Christians, so we can listen to the Holy Spirit and be able to resist, forsaking the right way and listening to false prophets.

And I do believe that we sin everyday and it is our Lord and Saviour's sacrifice that covers us, from our sins. And a true Christian WOULDN'T go back to their old ways, but we know it does happen.

Now I understand what you are saying but, I think it can be better used when letting the saved know that there's no need to beat ourselves up when we sin knowing that Jesus has freed us from the bondage of sin (Romans) but we should asume as Christians that we can't just continue in Sin so that grace should abound. (Romans 6:1). And that fact should always be coupled with this subject for those still on the milk of the word.

JC

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post #30 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-01-2002, 08:48 AM
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My main 3 points regarding the discussion are as follows:

1. Jesus paid the price IN FULL! We can't gain salvation, nor once receiving the free gift is it ever withdrawn do to our many screw ups. What sin is greater, murder or gossip? The world would say murder, but God sees sin as sin, as we are but filthy rags. As believers however, were are adopted into the family of God, joint heirs with Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is living in us (His permanent abode)! Once you got it, you can't forfeit or lose it.

2. The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life! Don't get stray from conviction from the Lord as the Lord chastens those he loves (His children), but at the same time don't think you are on the brink of losing the FREE gift of eternal life due to sin. It is GRACE not works!

3. One has to truly wonder about a "Christian" living in continuous sin. Are they really saved and bought by the blood of Jesus? I would lean towards saying NO! Once saved, we are a new creation in Christ Jesus, GOD is living in us, and we can no longer sin without a desire to STOP. You are different and that is all there is to it. You CANNOT stay the same!
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post #31 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-01-2002, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50
My main 3 points regarding the discussion are as follows:

1. Jesus paid the price IN FULL! We can't gain salvation, nor once receiving the free gift is it ever withdrawn do to our many screw ups. What sin is greater, murder or gossip? The world would say murder, but God sees sin as sin, as we are but filthy rags. As believers however, were are adopted into the family of God, joint heirs with Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is living in us (His permanent abode)! Once you got it, you can't forfeit or lose it.

2. The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life! Don't get stray from conviction from the Lord as the Lord chastens those he loves (His children), but at the same time don't think you are on the brink of losing the FREE gift of eternal life due to sin. It is GRACE not works!

3. One has to truly wonder about a "Christian" living in continuous sin. Are they really saved and bought by the blood of Jesus? I would lean towards saying NO! Once saved, we are a new creation in Christ Jesus, GOD is living in us, and we can no longer sin without a desire to STOP. You are different and that is all there is to it. You CANNOT stay the same!

Lee I agree with most everything you said. But there was some things that in 3 that I would have to disagree with. In the past couple of years I have went kindof downhill as a Christian. I always (before) thought if I would hang out with the right crowd that would keep me from sin. It did. The way I would know who a true friend was, was to talk about God around them. If they didn't believe or just not want to hear it, they wouldn't hang out with me as much or anymore. That was kindof my plan. I wanted to bring people around me that would lift me up not bring me down. That mission was accomplished. I didn't think anything else was in the way or could get in the way of my relationship with God. Boy was I wrong. It came on to were I didn't notice it. But, I was kept busy. It was like I had no time for anything. I was looking to buy a house, buying a car for my wife, getting married, ect. I got so busy with planning my fellowship with God got less and less. I never saw it coming. This stuff went on for a while (a year or so) so it wasn't something that I did overnight. Anyways I know that I am a born again believer. I guess the Christian word "backsliding" comes to mind. It is a tuff road that I am on right now, trying to get back the zealesness I had for God before. I see that zealesness in you when you type something about God. I have never stopped believing in God, but this road has brought my faith down. I have sinned quite a bits. You probably couldn't tell much difference from me and Silverback if you were hanging out with me. Unless someone brings God up. I don't like where I am at in my life right now, but I know I am born again. That is the part that keeps me going. I believe that you can be born again and live in sin. Though I am not proud of it I have been doing it for a couple years. Then again I am not since Jesus has washed away my sin yesterday, today, and tomorrow. I believe Jesus freed us from sin not to sin and it is hard to keep from sinning. I think the best way to quit sinning is to just seek God, and you'll sin less on accident.

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post #32 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-01-2002, 09:46 AM
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Lee I agree with most everything you said. But there was some things that in 3 that I would have to disagree with. In the past couple of years I have went kindof downhill as a Christian. I always (before) thought if I would hang out with the right crowd that would keep me from sin. It did. The way I would know who a true friend was, was to talk about God around them. If they didn't believe or just not want to hear it, they wouldn't hang out with me as much or anymore. That was kindof my plan. I wanted to bring people around me that would lift me up not bring me down. That mission was accomplished. I didn't think anything else was in the way or could get in the way of my relationship with God. Boy was I wrong. It came on to were I didn't notice it. But, I was kept busy. It was like I had no time for anything. I was looking to buy a house, buying a car for my wife, getting married, ect. I got so busy with planning my fellowship with God got less and less. I never saw it coming. This stuff went on for a while (a year or so) so it wasn't something that I did overnight. Anyways I know that I am a born again believer. I guess the Christian word "backsliding" comes to mind. It is a tuff road that I am on right now, trying to get back the zealesness I had for God before. I see that zealesness in you when you type something about God. I have never stopped believing in God, but this road has brought my faith down. I have sinned quite a bits. You probably couldn't tell much difference from me and Silverback if you were hanging out with me. Unless someone brings God up. I don't like where I am at in my life right now, but I know I am born again. That is the part that keeps me going. I believe that you can be born again and live in sin. Though I am not proud of it I have been doing it for a couple years. Then again I am not since Jesus has washed away my sin yesterday, today, and tomorrow. I believe Jesus freed us from sin not to sin and it is hard to keep from sinning. I think the best way to quit sinning is to just seek God, and you'll sin less on accident.
Re-read my statement a few times!

3. One has to truly wonder about a "Christian" living in continuous sin. Are they really saved and bought by the blood of Jesus? I would lean towards saying NO! Once saved, we are a new creation in Christ Jesus, GOD is living in us, and we can no longer sin without a desire to STOP. You are different and that is all there is to it. You CANNOT stay the same!

Of course we sin and do it everyday maybe many times every day. But the key is this, you and I and other believers aren't ahppy about it. Listen to yourslef. You are down and out because of the valley you are in, but at the same time you continue to trust God as he is in the valley with you each step of the way. That is much different than a so called believer sinning, sinning and sinning some more and than not caring about his sin one bit!


Keep your head up and your eyes focused on Him!

In Christ,

Lee
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post #33 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-01-2002, 12:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50


Re-read my statement a few times!

3. One has to truly wonder about a "Christian" living in continuous sin. Are they really saved and bought by the blood of Jesus? I would lean towards saying NO! Once saved, we are a new creation in Christ Jesus, GOD is living in us, and we can no longer sin without a desire to STOP. You are different and that is all there is to it. You CANNOT stay the same!

Of course we sin and do it everyday maybe many times every day. But the key is this, you and I and other believers aren't ahppy about it. Listen to yourslef. You are down and out because of the valley you are in, but at the same time you continue to trust God as he is in the valley with you each step of the way. That is much different than a so called believer sinning, sinning and sinning some more and than not caring about his sin one bit!


Keep your head up and your eyes focused on Him!

In Christ,

Lee
I see what you are saying. I am just am just saying that sometimes your heart can get hardend after doing a sin over and over, and the conviction isn't there anymore. For example cusing. It is part of my vocabulary it seems. Sometimes I don't even think about what I am saying and get convicted for doing it. Or smoking, I have smoked for so long that the conviction isn't there most of the time. Every so often I will wish I didn't smoke, but I believe my heart is heardend somewhat because I keep smoking and cusing.
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post #34 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-01-2002, 01:24 PM
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I understand hardening your heart, but are saying that if you straighten up you will go to hell? Of course not! What continuous sin does is cause a spiritual shut down. Prayers can be hindered and faith lacks and God stops using you. This does not mean however that if the Lord were to return today, that you would go to hell. Hope this helps!

Lee
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post #35 of 35 (permalink) Old 10-01-2002, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50
I understand hardening your heart, but are saying that if you straighten up you will go to hell? Of course not! What continuous sin does is cause a spiritual shut down. Prayers can be hindered and faith lacks and God stops using you. This does not mean however that if the Lord were to return today, that you would go to hell. Hope this helps!

Lee
That is pretty much what I am trying to say. I don't believe I would go to hell because I have backsliden.
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