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post #1 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-22-2002, 09:19 AM Thread Starter
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Questions: Specifically for Chris

Chris I made this thread because of your comments in the life after death thread.
So I'm gonn ask a series of questions: If at any point you don't think this is cool, I'll delete the thread.

Here is my first question and with out an answer we can't really go any further.

Do you believe that God exists?

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post #2 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-22-2002, 09:32 AM
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This should be interesting.

Yes, God exists.
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post #3 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-22-2002, 09:46 AM Thread Starter
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Okay Great! You do believe in God.


Do you believe in the Bible as the divine word of God given to us through Godly men?

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post #4 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-22-2002, 10:16 AM
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I am not sure. If I believed that completely, then we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

My question with this is why is the Bible correct and other religions "holy books" incorrect? The plain fact is that I don't have all the information that I want. Its out there but I haven't taken the time to do the research. It would probably take years to research, if I ever got the answers I wanted.

I am not willing to say yet that Christian are right and the Hindus, Buddists, Jews, etc, etc, are wrong. I think all the religions are talking about the same God though, with very few exceptions.

Based on my current knowledge, the Bible has the highest possiblity of being the word of God. So thats a very complicated answer to an easy question.

-Chris
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post #5 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-22-2002, 10:44 AM Thread Starter
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Have you read my thread on the Bible? Try reading that and tell me what you think.

Now for the "other religions". If other religions were talking about the same God, then God wouldn't have gotten so angry at the children of Israel when they worshipped other Gods. (Read the OT, it's evidenced time and again that God got angry when his people did this)

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post #6 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-24-2002, 03:50 AM
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My thoughts on other religions talking about the same God are akin to advertising. This is going to be a very simple explaination to a complicated subject, but here goes:

The easiest way to get your message to everyone is to broadcast it to as wide an audience as possible. God, I would hope, would want as many people to be saved as possible, so I believe he visited various cultures to spread his word, not just one small group in one small part of the world. Thus I feel that all religions are based upon the word of God, but because we as humans are flawed, the various religions all have a slightly different viewpoint, and a slightly different interpretation of the message.

I think the gods referred to in the OT are the gods of polytheistic religions. Even polytheistic religions have a Creator. That would be God. The other dieties are what Christianity refers to as Angels, however, the cultures misinterpereted the meaning of Angels, and began to worship them as gods. That is why I believe God was angry. The message was misinterpreted in one way or another, however the general idea is still intact.

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post #7 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-25-2002, 08:06 PM
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I am kinda with Darkwolf on this. I think there have been so many mis-interpretations and possbily some done on purpose where it would be impossible to figure out what really went on back in the day.

Its sorta like the party game where you tell a secret to one person and they pass it on and by the 10th, its been mutated. Just think of doing this over thousands of years. Throw in people who have their own agendas and then who knows what you will get.

I have honestly started re-investigating some of my beliefs and some are leaning more towards Christian beliefs, but there are still too many things that don't jive. I think it would be ALOT simplier if all Christians believed the same things about how literal to take the bible. But with some believing it is exactly as stated and some say that alot of the passages are stories to get the point across and aother all in between, where do you draw the lines?

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post #8 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-26-2002, 07:11 AM Thread Starter
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You draw the lines with just believing. Our God calls for a monotheistic relationship beliving in His existence and by believing in His Son, Christ Jesus. What I'm trying to get you guys to see is that salvation isn't by just beliving in God, you only get to heaven through your belief in Jesus and being baptized in his name.

Matt 15:13 Every plant which my Father in heaven has not put in the earth, will be taken up by the roots.

John 14:16 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

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post #9 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-26-2002, 09:14 AM
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I know how one is saved and reaches heavan. On that subject I have done my homework. What amazes me is how many people DON'T know what it takes to get to Heaven. They think leading a good life is all that is necessary. Most fail at that when you get down to it anyway.

I know its as simple as saying and believing that Jesus is my Lord and Savior and try to lead a sinless life, but I can't honestly say that yet. If I did right now, it would be a lie, I just dont feel that. Alot of people don't have a problem with saying this even though they don't quite believe it or even understand what it means, but I try to be honest with myself and others.
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post #10 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-26-2002, 09:28 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by chris
I know how one is saved and reaches heavan. On that subject I have done my homework. What amazes me is how many people DON'T know what it takes to get to Heaven. They think leading a good life is all that is necessary. Most fail at that when you get down to it anyway.

I know its as simple as saying and believing that Jesus is my Lord and Savior and try to lead a sinless life, but I can't honestly say that yet. If I did right now, it would be a lie, I just dont feel that. Alot of people don't have a problem with saying this even though they don't quite believe it or even understand what it means, but I try to be honest with myself and others.
It's all good. (I should've put a smiley in my post I think)

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post #11 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-26-2002, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
You draw the lines with just believing. Our God calls for a monotheistic relationship beliving in His existence and by believing in His Son, Christ Jesus. What I'm trying to get you guys to see is that salvation isn't by just beliving in God, you only get to heaven through your belief in Jesus and being baptized in his name.

Matt 15:13 Every plant which my Father in heaven has not put in the earth, will be taken up by the roots.

John 14:16 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Here's where a contradiction within the Bible arises. I don't have my Bible with me, so I can't quote specific passages, but the first 3 or 4 books of the NT, it is only within John that Jesus is noted saying you can only be saved through him.

However, in the other books, Jesus is noted as saying that only through his father (God) can you be saved.

I wish I had my Bible with me so I could provide exact quotes for you. But this is a subject that I've had many debates over as well. If you're to believe the Bible is absolute, then which passage are you supposed to believe and which are you supposed to discard, since they give two possible paths to salvation.

There is either a contradiction there, or there is more than one way to salvation. If I remember when I get home tonight, I'll get the actual passages and add them here.

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post #12 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-26-2002, 01:57 PM Thread Starter
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Although it's made pretty darn clear who saves you please provide the particular scriptures you speak of so we can discuss specifics.

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post #13 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-26-2002, 02:01 PM
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I would like to see your verses DarkWolf as I no not 1 verse that says Jesus Christ is NOT the only way.

John 3:16-18
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10:9-10
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Acts 2:21-22
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know...

Acts 4:12-13
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Acts 16:30-31
And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ephesians 2:7-9
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Titus 3:4-6
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour...

John 1:29 (a quote from John the baptist, not John the Apostle)
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

This is just a few scatter over the NT for you to read. Let me know if you come up with anything!

Lee
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post #14 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-26-2002, 02:01 PM
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Will do

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post #15 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-26-2002, 02:03 PM Thread Starter
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Thumbs up

AMEN Lee!

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post #16 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-26-2002, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50
A bunch of NT passages
I notice you, like everyone else when it comes to this subject ... left out Matthew, Mark, and Luke ... and in each, Jesus is noted as saying that only through his father can we be saved.

As I said, I'll provide the passages when I get home.

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post #17 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-26-2002, 03:00 PM
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OK, here goes then darkwolf.

MATTHEW 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

There is one of many many more!

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post #18 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-26-2002, 03:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedpro50
OK, here goes then darkwolf.

MATTHEW 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

There is one of many many more!

Lee
Keep reading. It's when Jesus is actually speaking. If you can't find it, I'll have it up later tonight.

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post #19 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-26-2002, 03:42 PM
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I will let you post it when you find it. I was simply pointing out that in the other gospels it does declare Jesus as Lord and Saviour.

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post #20 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-27-2002, 01:25 AM
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Wow ... I feel foolish. All this buildup, to nothing. I'm staying with some friends during the week (their house is much closer to where I work), and am home on the weekends. Actually, I'll be back to my place on Wednesday evening.

They've got a Bible, which I thought I was going to be able to quote from, but it's a paraphrased Bible, and it's way different than my KJV. I can't even find passages that have already been quoted here, because all the wording is whacky.

Here's a quote: "The book you have in your hands is a paraphrase of the Bible. What does paraphrase mean? To paraphrase is to say something in different words than the author used. It is a restatement of an author's thoughts, using different words than he did."

In otherwords, it's completely off the wall. There's no verse, there's no scripture. It's like reading a story, not like reading the Bible.

So, I will post up the passages I'm referring to, but since I cannot find them in this Bible, I will post them up on Wednesday, when I can quote them from my KJV.

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post #21 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-27-2002, 07:09 AM
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Good excuse DarkWolf.....j/k!

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post #22 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-27-2002, 09:57 AM
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Here you go Darkwolf, I dont think you'll find what your looking for. but its worth the look.
http://bible.gospelcom.net/
The is a link to an online Bible in all differnt versions.
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post #23 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-27-2002, 05:49 PM
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I'm trying to go there, but the link is timing out. It might be the proxy at work. I'll try it again later this evening.

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post #24 of 85 (permalink) Old 08-28-2002, 08:54 AM
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Good excuse DarkWolf.....j/k!

Lee
I say it again...j/k
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post #25 of 85 (permalink) Old 09-21-2002, 03:05 AM
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Ok. Whoops! Heh. Sorry about that.

Here we go:

Bible: KJV printed in 1957, and given to my father in 1964.

Mark 10:17
And when he was gone forth in to the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
[18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is, God.
[19] Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Hunour thy father and mother.
[20] And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
[21] Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lakest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
[22] And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
[23] And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
[24] And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
[25] It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
[26] And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
[27] And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.


Now, I know this is before the resurrection. And I'm only using the quotes from St. Mark, because they are only slightly different in St. Matthew, and St. Luke (Chap 19 in St. Matthew, and I believe Chap 12 in St. Luke, though I could be wrong there).

The main reason I quote from before the resurrection is that there is no mention that only through Jesus can you be saved, even after the accounts of the resurrection. However, in St. John, it's all over the place that "In Jesus name", "in my name", etc. Even before the resurrection.

So my point is, 3 of 4 say one thing, while 1 of 4 says something else ... yet that 1 is the one quoted, and adhered to as the rule. Being as they are all 4 in the same Bible, are we to believe only the one, and leave the other 3 to be contradictions ... but then again, we can't have the Bible containing any contradictions ... so we get back to my earlier, and central point that the Bible is not meant to have everything be taken in the literal. That it is open for interpretation.

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post #26 of 85 (permalink) Old 09-23-2002, 07:52 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf
Ok. Whoops! Heh. Sorry about that.

Now, I know this is before the resurrection. And I'm only using the quotes from St. Mark, because they are only slightly different in St. Matthew, and St. Luke (Chap 19 in St. Matthew, and I believe Chap 12 in St. Luke, though I could be wrong there).

The main reason I quote from before the resurrection is that there is no mention that only through Jesus can you be saved, even after the accounts of the resurrection. However, in St. John, it's all over the place that "In Jesus name", "in my name", etc. Even before the resurrection.

So my point is, 3 of 4 say one thing, while 1 of 4 says something else ... yet that 1 is the one quoted, and adhered to as the rule. Being as they are all 4 in the same Bible, are we to believe only the one, and leave the other 3 to be contradictions ... but then again, we can't have the Bible containing any contradictions ... so we get back to my earlier, and central point that the Bible is not meant to have everything be taken in the literal. That it is open for interpretation.
First of all you have to come to understand the Trinity. God is the Father and Creator, Jesus is the Son and redeemer, The Holy Spirit is the comforter. Jesus came to teach and save. He came to live among the flesh and resist all the tempatations of the flesh so he could be a pure and clean sacrifice for us. He talked about his Father alot. Wouldn't you?

If people would read the Bible as a whole on their own and go to regular Church services and hear other things being taught that they could go back and study on, then they could see the Bible as the complete book that it is. Instead folks see one or two flecks of scripture and see contradictions. And you still haven't shown a contradiction.

Nevermind the many scriptures saying that Christ is the way to salvation. Baptism connects us with the death burial and resurrection of Christ and saves us through Jesus Christ who is our permanent high preist. God forgives us with grace because Jesus attoned for our sins with his own shed blood.

DW-Get a study Bible and do a search on the words Salvation,saved,baptism and you'll see the numerous passages after the resurrection, that tell us that God expects us to gain salvation by believing in his son who was perfect and without sin, and being baptised in His name IN WATER for the remission of sins. Jesus said none get to the father 'cept it be through me.John 14:6

BTW-As far as Jesus saying that none are good cept the Father. I assume you try to make the point that Jesus was admitting that he isn't good because he said that? Go read John 10:30

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post #27 of 85 (permalink) Old 09-23-2002, 11:26 AM
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Jesus was God in the flesh.

What are you trying to point out to me?

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post #28 of 85 (permalink) Old 09-23-2002, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
And you still haven't shown a contradiction.

Jesus said none get to the father 'cept it be through me.John 14:6

BTW-As far as Jesus saying that none are good cept the Father. I assume you try to make the point that Jesus was admitting that he isn't good because he said that? Go read John 10:30
Actually, I'm not trying to show a contradiction, just trying to show why I feel the Bible is open for interpretation, because 3 books say one thing, while the forth says something different. Were I to feel the Bible is absolute and without question, then that would certainly be a contradiction. But because I believe it's open for interpretation, it's not a contradiction, merely 4 mens own interpretations on what Jesus said and did.

And you keep quoting the book of John

And Speedpro, I know that some believe Jesus was God in the flesh, while others do not believe that, but believe that he was the son of God only, that he was merely a man with a divine father. I'm not going to delve into that subject. Besides, if Jesus was God in the flesh, then wouldn't that mean that through God we are saved?

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post #29 of 85 (permalink) Old 09-24-2002, 08:15 AM Thread Starter
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DW- Does God actually save us? Yes and No. God gives us grace through the belief of his son and being Baptised in Jesus' name for the forgiveness of our sins. Baptism connects us with Jesus' death and ressurection therefore saving us. Remember the animal sacrifices of the OT? Well Jesus' is a permanent priest a permanent sacrifice for us. And through that Jesus' saves us from God's judgment.

Scripture outside of John: 1 Peter 3:21,Romans 3:24,Romans 5:1,Ro 5:11,Ro 5:21,1 Cor 8:4-6..............Believe me Jay, I could go on and on. If you need more scripture.

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post #30 of 85 (permalink) Old 09-24-2002, 09:01 AM
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And Speedpro, I know that some believe Jesus was God in the flesh, while others do not believe that, but believe that he was the son of God only, that he was merely a man with a divine father. I'm not going to delve into that subject. Besides, if Jesus was God in the flesh, then wouldn't that mean that through God we are saved?
Darkwolf, I would love for you to show me in the scripture how Jesus is not God in the Flesh. I would also agree that God is a part of salvation, duh. If it were not for the grace of GOD then none of us would be here, certainly not in a position to have faith and be saved. Same thing goes for the Holy Spirit's work in redemption. If the Holy Spirit (also God) didn't call His people and regenerate our spirit, then would could never even have faith. A dead man can't have faith. A dead man can't believe. Ephesians 2:8-9 "For by grace are you saved through faith, that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God..."
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post #31 of 85 (permalink) Old 09-24-2002, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
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Actually, I'm not trying to show a contradiction, just trying to show why I feel the Bible is open for interpretation, because 3 books say one thing, while the forth says something different. Were I to feel the Bible is absolute and without question, then that would certainly be a contradiction. But because I believe it's open for interpretation, it's not a contradiction, merely 4 mens own interpretations on what Jesus said and did.

And you keep quoting the book of John

And Speedpro, I know that some believe Jesus was God in the flesh, while others do not believe that, but believe that he was the son of God only, that he was merely a man with a divine father. I'm not going to delve into that subject. Besides, if Jesus was God in the flesh, then wouldn't that mean that through God we are saved?
Yes the Bible is open for interpretation. That is why we have so many different religons and etc. But the truth of the Bible's entirety lies in God. The closer you get to God, the closer you understand what God intended. And the gray area that so many people see will not be so much gray to you anymore.

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post #32 of 85 (permalink) Old 09-25-2002, 01:57 AM
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Quote:
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Yes the Bible is open for interpretation. That is why we have so many different religons and etc. But the truth of the Bible's entirety lies in God. The closer you get to God, the closer you understand what God intended. And the gray area that so many people see will not be so much gray to you anymore.
Something we agree on Albiet a little differently in our execution of those beliefs though.

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Darkwolf, I would love for you to show me in the scripture how Jesus is not God in the Flesh.
It all depends on how the reader interprets the Bible. Jesus constantly refers to God as a seperate entity. He calls him his father, and says that he will sit at his fathers right hand, etc. One could certainly interpret that to mean Jesus was not God in the flesh. It's all based on your perspective.

Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
Scripture outside of John: 1 Peter 3:21,Romans 3:24,Romans 5:1,Ro 5:11,Ro 5:21,1 Cor 8:4-6..............Believe me Jay, I could go on and on. If you need more scripture.
I know that it's also elsewhere in the Bible. That's neither here nor there. The simple fact is two different things were quoted. Regardless of what else it says in the Bible, if one is to believe that the Bible is absolute, and without need for interpretation, then this would be cause for dissent, as this would be a contradiction in terms. Even one, tiny, miniscule contradiction puts the validity of the entirety of the rest of the text into question.

However, if one understands that the Bible is open for interpretation, one does not see this as a contradiction in terms. I think we're going around in circles here, because whether you see it or not, we are actually in agreement on this issue of the Bible being open for interpretation. Where we dissagree is on just what exactly is the meaning of the Bible. And by meaning, I don't say that as "What it means" in it's literal sense ... but "What does it teach us, and how important is it to salvation?"

Because of your religion, you believe the Bible to be the word of God and as such is without question, though maybe certain areas are left open for interpretation. I believe that it is part of God's message to us ... a piece in the puzzle, and while it is an important book, it is not infallible by the mere fact that it was scribed by man. Man is an imperfect being.

And this is why I believe that other religions speak of God in the same way as Christianity speaks of God. Whether they are monotheistic religions, or polytheistic religions ... because as I stated before, the "gods" in polytheistic religions, are what Christians refer to as angels. Even polytheistic religions recognize one God, one Creator, one Great Spirit, or whatever you want to call it. It's simply various cultures interpretation of God's original message to these cultures. Though the message is the same, or very nearly the same, the interpretation is different. Who are we to say that one is right and all the rest are wrong?

It's a defense mechanism that we cling to beliefs that we've had for a vast majority of our lives, that we don't, or can't accept the possibility that what we believe may not be the whole truth ... that maybe we only have a piece of the puzzle. Instead we try to rationalize away any alternate beliefs, both to ourselves, and to others ... even to those who present these alternate beliefs ... thus strengthening our own beliefs.

It's this defense mechanism that causes the distrust, and even outright hatred of our fellow man. It's this defense mechanism that has fueled wars to wipe out those who believe differently (and understand that I'm not pointing the finger at any one particular religion, as many religions are guilty of this offense). I don't know if you realize how fortunate I feel to be having this discussion with you all, that it's being conducted in a civilized manner, and there's no hostility towards anyone. I'm somewhat of a junky when it comes to religious discussions ... I always have an urge to join in. I tend to shy away from them more often now, because I've been in far too many that quickly break down, and become a hotbed of insults, and threats, from all sides, directed at all other sides. We all have this defense mechanism, but I feel that we here are able to put it aside ... or at least suppress it to allow this sharing of ideas. And that is something I don't come across too often.

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post #33 of 85 (permalink) Old 09-25-2002, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf

TO SPEEDPRO:

It all depends on how the reader interprets the Bible. Jesus constantly refers to God as a seperate entity. He calls him his father, and says that he will sit at his fathers right hand, etc. One could certainly interpret that to mean Jesus was not God in the flesh. It's all based on your perspective.

TO JC:

I know that it's also elsewhere in the Bible. That's neither here nor there. The simple fact is two different things were quoted. Regardless of what else it says in the Bible, if one is to believe that the Bible is absolute, and without need for interpretation, then this would be cause for dissent, as this would be a contradiction in terms. Even one, tiny, miniscule contradiction puts the validity of the entirety of the rest of the text into question.

However, if one understands that the Bible is open for interpretation, one does not see this as a contradiction in terms. I think we're going around in circles here, because whether you see it or not, we are actually in agreement on this issue of the Bible being open for interpretation. Where we dissagree is on just what exactly is the meaning of the Bible. And by meaning, I don't say that as "What it means" in it's literal sense ... but "What does it teach us, and how important is it to salvation?"

Because of your religion, you believe the Bible to be the word of God and as such is without question, though maybe certain areas are left open for interpretation. I believe that it is part of God's message to us ... a piece in the puzzle, and while it is an important book, it is not infallible by the mere fact that it was scribed by man. Man is an imperfect being.

And this is why I believe that other religions speak of God in the same way as Christianity speaks of God. Whether they are monotheistic religions, or polytheistic religions ... because as I stated before, the "gods" in polytheistic religions, are what Christians refer to as angels. Even polytheistic religions recognize one God, one Creator, one Great Spirit, or whatever you want to call it. It's simply various cultures interpretation of God's original message to these cultures. Though the message is the same, or very nearly the same, the interpretation is different. Who are we to say that one is right and all the rest are wrong?

It's a defense mechanism that we cling to beliefs that we've had for a vast majority of our lives, that we don't, or can't accept the possibility that what we believe may not be the whole truth ... that maybe we only have a piece of the puzzle. Instead we try to rationalize away any alternate beliefs, both to ourselves, and to others ... even to those who present these alternate beliefs ... thus strengthening our own beliefs.

It's this defense mechanism that causes the distrust, and even outright hatred of our fellow man. It's this defense mechanism that has fueled wars to wipe out those who believe differently (and understand that I'm not pointing the finger at any one particular religion, as many religions are guilty of this offense). I don't know if you realize how fortunate I feel to be having this discussion with you all, that it's being conducted in a civilized manner, and there's no hostility towards anyone. I'm somewhat of a junky when it comes to religious discussions ... I always have an urge to join in. I tend to shy away from them more often now, because I've been in far too many that quickly break down, and become a hotbed of insults, and threats, from all sides, directed at all other sides. We all have this defense mechanism, but I feel that we here are able to put it aside ... or at least suppress it to allow this sharing of ideas. And that is something I don't come across too often.
OK, DW. Here a few things that you need to consider.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2 Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

In your case you are simply divinding the truth incorrectly. Without the Holy Spirit in you, a person cannot rightly divide the truth. It is by the Holy Spirit that we learn what the Bible says to us.

1 John 2:27
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

I understand that probably much of the Bible doesn't match up for you or make since. Praise the Lord that it is not a requirement to understand ALL things before you are saved.

The verse above about no scripture being of any private interpretation tells us 3 things.

1--Don't decide all by yourself that any verse means something. People say, "Well, I think this verse means this". Not a good or smart thing.

2--The Holy Spirit is the ultimate interpreter of all scripture. A Christian should allow the Holy Spirit to be the teacher, not even MAN. Men let us down and mislead others.

3--Scripture always agrees with scripture. To many people take one verse (say what they THINK it says) and run with it.

The truth of the matter is that (of course) scripture is open to interpretation, but my interpretation or yours is invalid and means nothing. It is a waste of time for me to sit down and try to figure out what I think something means.

------> By the way, when Jesus said none is good but God, what he was really saying was, "Hey discples, quit looking at me as a man. I am God, all you are seeing is Jesus in the flesh. I am God in the flesh."

I hope this helps!

Lee
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post #34 of 85 (permalink) Old 09-26-2002, 11:56 AM
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"The verse above about no scripture being of any private interpretation tells us 3 things."

That, to me says that you must find the truth for yourself. You have to let God direct you to the path he has chosen for you ... even if that path isn't Christian. But who knows? None of us really do for sure. For all we know, the Hopi indians have the true religion.

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post #35 of 85 (permalink) Old 09-26-2002, 12:36 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf

That, to me says that you must find the truth for yourself. You have to let God direct you to the path he has chosen for you ... even if that path isn't Christian. But who knows? None of us really do for sure. For all we know, the Hopi indians have the true religion.
No DW. God is Christianity. God sent us his Son, Jesus. Yes you must let God/Holy Spirit direct you to the path. but make no mistake, the path has Jesus on it. Any other religion that teaches otherwise is false. That we DO know FOR SURE.

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post #36 of 85 (permalink) Old 09-26-2002, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
No DW. God is Christianity. God sent us his Son, Jesus. Yes you must let God/Holy Spirit direct you to the path. but make no mistake, the path has Jesus on it. Any other religion that teaches otherwise is false. That we DO know FOR SURE.
No, we don't. It's what you believe. It's the defense mechanism. None of us knows anything for sure. We only know what we believe, but just because we believe it, doesn't mean it's true.

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post #37 of 85 (permalink) Old 09-26-2002, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf
"The verse above about no scripture being of any private interpretation tells us 3 things."

That, to me says that you must find the truth for yourself. You have to let God direct you to the path he has chosen for you ... even if that path isn't Christian. But who knows? None of us really do for sure. For all we know, the Hopi indians have the true religion.
No sir. The reason I said 3 things, is because I have carefully compared the text to the rest of the Word of God, so I don't fall into the trap of creating my own meaning.

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post #38 of 85 (permalink) Old 09-26-2002, 01:36 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarkWolf


No, we don't. It's what you believe. It's the defense mechanism. None of us knows anything for sure. We only know what we believe, but just because we believe it, doesn't mean it's true.
Well it all comes down to if you believe in God and the Bible. If not then you're right, one will not believe that Christianity is the right way.


But we who Believe in God know where his word is contained, and we know in whom our salvation lies. JESUS

Because anything is open to interpretation, even the Bible. But you have to comprehend it as a complete work, not in excerpts taken here and there.

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post #39 of 85 (permalink) Old 09-30-2002, 09:15 AM
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No, we don't. It's what you believe. It's the defense mechanism. None of us knows anything for sure. We only know what we believe, but just because we believe it, doesn't mean it's true.
Before talling me what I know and don't know you should be careful. There are some things we can know for sure.

Romans 8:15-17
I John 3:14
I John 4:13
I John 5:13,15
and the list goes on and on. Believers know some things unbelievers do not and that is a fact. If the Lord Jesus has never spoken to heart and called you son, I understand your not being able to see these things as the truth they are.

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post #40 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-02-2002, 12:51 AM
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Whether or not I believe the way you do is irrelevant. The fact is, you believe you know. But in all truth, you don't know for sure. None of us does. You want to believe that you know for sure. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, just stating that none of us knows for sure, all that we can do is believe what we believe. But don't confuse belief as a confirmation of truth.

Also, you have no idea whether or not Jesus or God has spoken to my heart ... please don't presume to.

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post #41 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-02-2002, 08:49 AM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by DarkWolf
[B]Whether or not I believe the way you do is irrelevant. The fact is, you believe you know. But in all truth, you don't know for sure. None of us does. You want to believe that you know for sure. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, just stating that none of us knows for sure, all that we can do is believe what we believe. But don't confuse belief as a confirmation of truth.

Also, you have no idea whether or not Jesus or God has spoken to my heart ... please don't presume to.

You are simply incorrect. I put my faith and belief in what I know to be true. A Christians faith (if they know anything) is based on fact not fiction. Fact is what we can KNOW. I know for a fact I am saved and will one day die and go to heaven unless Jesus comes back first! That is a fact, not because I reckon it so, but becuase it is truth. I also do not base my beliefs off of mere emotions as emotions will ie to you. Again, I under stand you NOT understanding. The Holy Spirit only can make you see.

About your last comment, I do not know your heart, but it is clear you do not hold to the Bible being the infalible and inerrant word of God. If this is the case it would be hard for someone that feels this way to be saved in the first place. Not to say that some other god didn't speak to your heart. With love I pray that Christ will one day call you Son.

In Christ,

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post #42 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-02-2002, 03:40 PM
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Again, you're not understanding. You are confusing belief with confirmation of truth. You do not know that what you believe is fact, but you believe that it is, and your belief is strong, and so you are convinced that it is. But that does not mean that it is. No, it's not emotional, no, it's not because you "reckon" it so. You believe, with all your heart that it's true ... but deep down inside, you do not truely know for sure. You've convinced yourself that you do, but you don't. No one does. No one living, at least.

Have you physically seen God? Have you physically touched him? Have you physically seen Jesus in the flesh? No. You have no physical proof (other than a book, that for all we know could be completely made up by an ancient historian that used real events to make it seem more plausible.) that what you believe is true. You believe it on faith that it's true, but really, you don't know for sure.

But I know you're not going to agree, so there's no need for you to respond.

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post #43 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-03-2002, 06:33 AM Thread Starter
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Jay-You're gonna have a hard time with this line of statements. We all believe in God because we do in fact KNOW it to be true.

That's something you can't even begin to relate to.

I personally know that there is supreme God and that he sent His Son to die for us, for our sins. WHY? Because what you call many coincediences I call the work of God in my life. I thank God for ALL things that happen in my life. And when I lean on Him and trust that he'll take care of things, HE DOES LIKE HE PROMISED THAT HE WOULD.

I worry about nothing in life. Do I have problems? Sure. But they ALWAYS work out in my favor to glorify the name of God, because I'm sure to let everyone know that it is God working in my life and not some "coincedience".

And about the Bible being a simple book is wrong. The Bible has withstood the most extreme scruntiny over all the centuries and has never been discounted. No men ALONE could have conjured up a book like the Bible. To disregard it as a simple collection of stories made up by men shows that you have never set out to read it and find errors totally.

I challenge you to read it in it's entirety and still come out thinking that it's fake. Go ahead and compare it with the History books and scientific journals. You'll see it is accurate.

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post #44 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-03-2002, 08:30 AM
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Thats good JC!
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post #45 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-04-2002, 01:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
Jay-You're gonna have a hard time with this line of statements. We all believe in God because we do in fact KNOW it to be true.

That's something you can't even begin to relate to.

I personally know that there is supreme God and that he sent His Son to die for us, for our sins. WHY? Because what you call many coincediences I call the work of God in my life. I thank God for ALL things that happen in my life. And when I lean on Him and trust that he'll take care of things, HE DOES LIKE HE PROMISED THAT HE WOULD.

I worry about nothing in life. Do I have problems? Sure. But they ALWAYS work out in my favor to glorify the name of God, because I'm sure to let everyone know that it is God working in my life and not some "coincedience".

And about the Bible being a simple book is wrong. The Bible has withstood the most extreme scruntiny over all the centuries and has never been discounted. No men ALONE could have conjured up a book like the Bible. To disregard it as a simple collection of stories made up by men shows that you have never set out to read it and find errors totally.

I challenge you to read it in it's entirety and still come out thinking that it's fake. Go ahead and compare it with the History books and scientific journals. You'll see it is accurate.
Whoa whoa whoa. When did this ever become an assumption that I don't believe in God, that I don't know God exists? I know in my heart, but I also know that doesn't mean it's true. I believe that it's true, just like you, but I know that simply because I believe ... hell, even KNOW it to be true, doesn't necissarily make it true. Absolutely God exists, and without a doubt I believe in him.

As for the Bible, did I say I believe it to be completely made up? No. I was pointing out that as a possibility, because in all honesty, it IS a possibility. It's absolutely possible that men, alone, could concieve of the Bible, and to give it validity, use actual events that happened, and names of people who actually existed. Yes it's possible. Do I believe it's completely made up? Of course not. But I, like you, have no proof that it's not. I, like you, have no proof that God exists. We cannot walk up to someone who doesn't believe in God and say "Hey, walk through this doorway with me. See that big glowing being sitting in that throne over there. Yeah, him. That's God. Just thought you might like to know that what we've believed all along is true." We know what we believe, and we know it to be true in our hearts. But that doesn't by default make it true.

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post #46 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-04-2002, 07:38 PM
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Whoa whoa whoa. When did this ever become an assumption that I don't believe in God, that I don't know God exists? I know in my heart, but I also know that doesn't mean it's true. I believe that it's true, just like you, but I know that simply because I believe ... hell, even KNOW it to be true, doesn't necissarily make it true. Absolutely God exists, and without a doubt I believe in him.

As for the Bible, did I say I believe it to be completely made up? No. I was pointing out that as a possibility, because in all honesty, it IS a possibility. It's absolutely possible that men, alone, could concieve of the Bible, and to give it validity, use actual events that happened, and names of people who actually existed. Yes it's possible. Do I believe it's completely made up? Of course not. But I, like you, have no proof that it's not. I, like you, have no proof that God exists. We cannot walk up to someone who doesn't believe in God and say "Hey, walk through this doorway with me. See that big glowing being sitting in that throne over there. Yeah, him. That's God. Just thought you might like to know that what we've believed all along is true." We know what we believe, and we know it to be true in our hearts. But that doesn't by default make it true.
Follow me here DW. If the Bible is not true then we are in a mess because God says it is the truth. God puts his WORD above his name. So, if a person denies the Bible being complete truth, then I would say he is LOST and calling God a liar.

The Bible being absolute truth, means that it is completely factual. I have not personally seen the Lord, but Moses saw God's back parts after he passed by, Isaiah saw the Lord upon his throne, Stephen the NT Deacon of the 1st church saw heaven opened up. Your previous statement that I have not seen God, makes no difference according to my knowledge that He is the God. If the Bible is truth then what the above mentioned people said must also be true! If you deny the Bible as infalible, then this discussion should end and we should move onto sharing the gospel with you as the Holy Spirit would have to shed light on your heart.

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post #47 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-07-2002, 02:09 AM
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Follow me here DW. If the Bible is not true then we are in a mess because God says it is the truth. God puts his WORD above his name. So, if a person denies the Bible being complete truth, then I would say he is LOST and calling God a liar.

The Bible being absolute truth, means that it is completely factual. I have not personally seen the Lord, but Moses saw God's back parts after he passed by, Isaiah saw the Lord upon his throne, Stephen the NT Deacon of the 1st church saw heaven opened up. Your previous statement that I have not seen God, makes no difference according to my knowledge that He is the God. If the Bible is truth then what the above mentioned people said must also be true! If you deny the Bible as infalible, then this discussion should end and we should move onto sharing the gospel with you as the Holy Spirit would have to shed light on your heart.

Lee
Try following me here. I've never said the Bible wasn't true. I've said it's not infallible, because it was written by man. I've said that God's core message is there.

As for the second part of your response, you only know these things, because they're written in the Bible. There's no physical evidence to support that argument.

I agree with you this discussion should end, because as I said before, neither of us is going to agree with the other. We see things differently ... though nearly the same. We're just going to keep going around in circles, and neither of us will prove anything to the other. You believe the Bible is infallible, I don't (that doesn't mean I believe the Bible is false). Let's move on.

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post #48 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-07-2002, 07:00 AM Thread Starter
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Jay you're gonna have to quit riding the fence when it comes to God.

If you believe in God (as you say you do) then you must believe in his word.

Like I stated before and I do seriously challenge you, this simple "book" as you put it, has with stood almost 2000 years of scrutiny from the best of human minds from each century. Yet is still going strong and is yet to be discounted and found as fallible.

It has been compared with History and found true, It has been compared with Science and been found true. I'll also encourage you to go to your local Christian book store and buy a copy of On the 7th day. It is a collection of personal testimonies from 40 scientists about how they came to believe in God and the Bible.

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post #49 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-07-2002, 06:39 PM
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That's just the thing JC, I'm not riding the fence. I believe what I believe, because it's what I know in my heart to be true. It's the gift God gave me 7 years ago when I went through a spiritual crisis. I was on the verge of truely renouncing God. I had lost my faith. I could feel his absence. I started practicing Herbalism, and soon started practicing Wicca. Not too long after that I started practicing Shamanism, and studying Druidity, and God came back into my life. I could feel his presence again, and I left Wicca, and Shamanism. I left religion, but God has stayed with me through all this.

I thought maybe I should start going to church, and putting my faith back in the Bible as I had once done. And I did try, but I got nothing out of it. When I went to church, God was with me, but the place, the building, felt empty (and I should mention also that when I had been Christian, and all my faith was in the Bible, churches still felt empty to me. Cold, and disconnected. I never really understood it, until later.) When I read the Bible, I see it for the good in it, but I don't see it as the whole truth, the absolute unquestionable truth. I see it as only part of the truth.

I'm without religion, yet God is with me always. It doesn't matter to me whether you agree with me, or whether the Bible agrees with me. God agrees with me, because this is the path he chose for me.

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post #50 of 85 (permalink) Old 10-08-2002, 09:08 AM
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I thought maybe I should start going to church, and putting my faith back in the Bible as I had once done. And I did try, but I got nothing out of it. When I went to church, God was with me, but the place, the building, felt empty (and I should mention also that when I had been Christian, and all my faith was in the Bible, churches still felt empty to me. Cold, and disconnected. I never really understood it, until later.) When I read the Bible, I see it for the good in it, but I don't see it as the whole truth, the absolute unquestionable truth. I see it as only part of the truth.

I'm without religion, yet God is with me always. It doesn't matter to me whether you agree with me, or whether the Bible agrees with me. God agrees with me, because this is the path he chose for me.
The question DW is which God? The statement that the Bible is part of the truth is true in a way as it does not tell us everything, but the statement is untrue in the way that IT IS ALL THE TRUTH WE NEED TO KNOW! Your statement above that the Bible is not the absolute unquestionable truth is scary, as that is an essentail doctrine of the Christian faith. That is necessary if your are to call yourself a born again believer. Neither you nor I are smart enough to figure out what is true and what is not true in the Word of God if you are right and it is not all true, which I obviously disagree with.

Also, you will have a hard time when you meet Jesus explaining to Him why you don't ever attend church. I understand many many churches today are cold, indifferent, spiritually empty, etc. BUT that is not the case with every church. If oyu have not visited every church until finding the Christian healthy church for you, then you have not done your duty to Jesus Christ. It is a slap in the face to Him by you not being a part (an integral part) in a local church body (another long thread this would take to discuss). You see, Christ died for the church! Watch what you say about not feeling comfortable in any church. The problem could be you, although I do not know your heart. You need church for dozens of reasons like sound teaching, to build your faith, to fellowship with believers who care, you need the WORD, etc. I hope this helps!

Hebrews 10:25
Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
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