My personal Struggle... - DFWstangs Forums
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 81 (permalink) Old 06-03-2010, 10:36 PM Thread Starter
Punk Ass Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3
My personal Struggle...

1. Did God create everyhing?
2. Does god know everything?

Please give me passages for references.

After these questions answered I will ask the real question at hand.
msaleen007 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 81 (permalink) Old 06-03-2010, 11:49 PM
Pilgrim
 
Phillystang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by msaleen007 View Post
1. Did God create everyhing?
2. Does god know everything?

Please give me passages for references.

After these questions answered I will ask the real question at hand.
1. Yes, Gen ch 1 ( God didn't create Himself though, if that were meant to be some sort of trick question)

2. Yes, Job 37:16
Do you know how the clouds hang poised,
those wonders of him who is perfect in knowledge?
Phillystang is offline  
post #3 of 81 (permalink) Old 06-04-2010, 12:45 AM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 614
No one really knows. /Thread

2003 Azure Blue Mach 1- DailyDriver

1996 MYSTIC Cobra #405 of 2000- High RPM Nitrous build in progress...

WisH4SvTs is offline  
 
post #4 of 81 (permalink) Old 06-04-2010, 03:04 AM
Lifer
 
tenacious j's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: arlington
Posts: 2,198
it really just depends on if you believe the bible is true or not. but there will always be questions that can't be answered.

can god lie? and if the answer is no, but we can lie, does it make us more powerful than god?

can god create something that he can't destroy?

there are some others that we went over in philosophy of religion that were fun to discuss but there is no answer. but if you are interested in religion discussions and or debates one that i have found that i enjoy is a guy on youtube with the user name telemantros.

myspace.com/tylerdurdin
tenacious j is offline  
post #5 of 81 (permalink) Old 06-04-2010, 04:18 AM
Rockin' da fumanchu
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: On the straight and narrow,stumbling at best, only by Gods grace.
Posts: 7,224
I would also add John 1:1-3 for question 1. I use the amplified version for its way of explaining "The Word" and to add context to verse 3.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...-3&version=AMP

John 1:1-3 (Amplified Bible)

John 1
1IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [b]Himself.(A)

2He was present originally with God.

3All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.

For number 2.

1 Sam. 2:3


God is the God of knowledge. He knows everything.

"Omniscient" means the state of knowing everything.


1 Sam. 16:7; Acts 1:24; 15:8; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 3:20

God knows a man's heart (cf. 1 Ki. 8:39; 2 Ch. 6:30).

1 Ch. 28:9

God searches the heart and understands all the intent of the thoughts (cf. 2 Ch. 16:9; Heb. 4:12).

Matt. 6:4, 18

God sees the things done in secret.

Heb. 4:13

There is no creature hidden from God's sight.

Matt. 6:32

God knows all our needs.

Matt. 10:29

Nothing happens apart from God's will (cf. Jas. 4:13-16).

Acts 2:23

Jesus was delivered to the Jews to be crucified by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God.

Matt. 24:36

No one but God knows the day and hour of judgment.





Listen to my buddy, Jeff Bolton, from 6-9 AM Mon-Fri.

Obamanomics = Trickle Up Poverty

Think you need to format/reinstall your OS(XP), read this first.
Tx Redneck is offline  
post #6 of 81 (permalink) Old 06-04-2010, 08:16 AM
Lifer
 
Avery'sDad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Red Oak
Posts: 1,509
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang View Post
1. Yes, Gen ch 1 ( God didn't create Himself though, if that were meant to be some sort of trick question)
He is the brother of the flying spaghetti monster. After drinking tea from the tea cup that's in orbit somewhere between the earth and moon, the invisible pink unicorn mated with the dragon that you cant see, hear, or touch.

Hope that clears everything up.

"If "pro" is the opposite of "con", is "progress" the opposite of "congress"? ...Gallagher
Avery'sDad is offline  
post #7 of 81 (permalink) Old 06-04-2010, 08:58 AM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,017
^^^^^
attention whore
Mr Majestyk is offline  
post #8 of 81 (permalink) Old 06-04-2010, 09:13 AM
Pilgrim
 
Phillystang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avery'sDad View Post
He is the brother of the flying spaghetti monster. After drinking tea from the tea cup that's in orbit somewhere between the earth and moon, the invisible pink unicorn mated with the dragon that you cant see, hear, or touch.

Hope that clears everything up.
Run along little reprobate...
Phillystang is offline  
post #9 of 81 (permalink) Old 06-04-2010, 09:16 AM
Full tilt boogie !!
 
Txstang1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: out yonder way
Posts: 10,208
Quote:
Originally Posted by msaleen007 View Post
1. Did God create everyhing?
2. Does god know everything?

Please give me passages for references.

After these questions answered I will ask the real question at hand.
1. no
2.no
3. refer to answer 1 and 2

**SKAGG NASTY** Just another 9 second street car.


Txstang1 is offline  
post #10 of 81 (permalink) Old 06-04-2010, 10:59 AM Thread Starter
Punk Ass Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tx Redneck View Post
I would also add John 1:1-3 for question 1. I use the amplified version for its way of explaining "The Word" and to add context to verse 3.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...-3&version=AMP

John 1:1-3 (Amplified Bible)

John 1
1IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word ([a]Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God [b]Himself.(A)

2He was present originally with God.

3All things were made and came into existence through Him; and without Him was not even one thing made that has come into being.

For number 2.

1 Sam. 2:3


God is the God of knowledge. He knows everything.

"Omniscient" means the state of knowing everything.


1 Sam. 16:7; Acts 1:24; 15:8; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 3:20

God knows a man's heart (cf. 1 Ki. 8:39; 2 Ch. 6:30).

1 Ch. 28:9

God searches the heart and understands all the intent of the thoughts (cf. 2 Ch. 16:9; Heb. 4:12).

Matt. 6:4, 18

God sees the things done in secret.

Heb. 4:13

There is no creature hidden from God's sight.

Matt. 6:32

God knows all our needs.

Matt. 10:29

Nothing happens apart from God's will (cf. Jas. 4:13-16).

Acts 2:23

Jesus was delivered to the Jews to be crucified by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God.

Matt. 24:36

No one but God knows the day and hour of judgment.
Now for my real question. If God is all knowing and has created everything. He chose us in him before the creation of the world. Why would he create something if he aready knows the out come of the choices I will make or do I really have a choice.

Once again this is my struggle and I do believe in God. Just looking for some direction.

If God crated everything and knows everything then how do I really have a choice. He created the choice that he already knew I would make.
msaleen007 is offline  
post #11 of 81 (permalink) Old 06-04-2010, 11:20 AM
Lifer
 
tenacious j's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: arlington
Posts: 2,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by msaleen007 View Post
Now for my real question. If God is all knowing and has created everything. He chose us in him before the creation of the world. Why would he create something if he aready knows the out come of the choices I will make or do I really have a choice.

Once again this is my struggle and I do believe in God. Just looking for some direction.

If God crated everything and knows everything then how do I really have a choice. He created the choice that he already knew I would make.
you won't find out till you're dead.

here is why i think it could be real. after jesus was killed all of his disciples were scared as shit and seemed about ready to bail. but then they all seemed to then forget all of their fears and keep spreading the message of jesus, knowing they may be killed. If they had just seen their leader be murdered i can't see these guys continuing to preach. so that makes me think that maybe he really did come back and that's why these guys did what they did. but i don't believe that all of the bible is accurate and i don't pay any attention to the old testament.

the reasons i have doubts are many and i won't bore you with them.

myspace.com/tylerdurdin
tenacious j is offline  
post #12 of 81 (permalink) Old 06-04-2010, 12:00 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenacious j View Post
you won't find out till you're dead.

here is why i think it could be real. after jesus was killed all of his disciples were scared as shit and seemed about ready to bail. but then they all seemed to then forget all of their fears and keep spreading the message of jesus, knowing they may be killed. If they had just seen their leader be murdered i can't see these guys continuing to preach. so that makes me think that maybe he really did come back and that's why these guys did what they did. but i don't believe that all of the bible is accurate and i don't pay any attention to the old testament.

the reasons i have doubts are many and i won't bore you with them.
Don't be too quick to discount the Old Testament as something remote and inapplicable to us today. The First Covenant God made with mankind, specifically with the Jewish people, is outlined therein, and the inability of mankind to fulfill his side of this covenant is the reason why Jesus was sent here the first place. A foretelling of Jesus can also be found as well in the Old Testament as far back as the Book of Genesis.
Mr Majestyk is offline  
post #13 of 81 (permalink) Old 06-04-2010, 01:39 PM
Lifer
 
tenacious j's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: arlington
Posts: 2,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk View Post
Don't be too quick to discount the Old Testament as something remote and inapplicable to us today. The First Covenant God made with mankind, specifically with the Jewish people, is outlined therein, and the inability of mankind to fulfill his side of this covenant is the reason why Jesus was sent here the first place. A foretelling of Jesus can also be found as well in the Old Testament as far back as the Book of Genesis.
i think the stories are interesting. i just have my doubts if it is real or just stories, like the ones in greek mythology and what not.

myspace.com/tylerdurdin
tenacious j is offline  
post #14 of 81 (permalink) Old 06-04-2010, 03:16 PM
CHANGE OIL NOW DIPSHIT!!!
 
appelingogt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: the armpit of Texas
Posts: 1,213
....can God make a rock so big, that he cant move it???

Use your head Jethro...you'll make more money
appelingogt is offline  
post #15 of 81 (permalink) Old 06-05-2010, 07:26 AM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenacious j View Post
it really just depends on if you believe the bible is true or not. but there will always be questions that can't be answered.

can god lie? and if the answer is no, but we can lie, does it make us more powerful than god?

can god create something that he can't destroy?

there are some others that we went over in philosophy of religion that were fun to discuss but there is no answer. but if you are interested in religion discussions and or debates one that i have found that i enjoy is a guy on youtube with the user name telemantros.
Whether you believe in the Bible or not has nothing to do with whether God created everything. lol

We know for certain that someone intelligent created everything. That is a demand of science for everything to be in existence. Let me break it down...

First, we know we exist because we have thought. I think therefore I am. If I did not exist, then I would not be thinking of anything, because it would be impossible. Now, I know this wall in my room exists, because no matter how hard I try, I cannot pass through it. It is a physical barrier with physical properties. So, just as I cannot pass through my wall without breaking it down, I cannot pass through the earth without boring through it or walking around it. Thus, it exists.

If something exists, that means it definitely has a point at which it was created. Otherwise, it appeared out of nowhere, with nothing to create it. And that is just completely illogical. Science has never observed something being created from nothing. Thus, we know the energy and matter of the Big Bang did not come out of nowhere. Someone created it from existing energy. A "creator" of some sort.

Now, some will say, "who created the Creator". Let's follow that logic. Let's say someone did create the Creator. Who created that guy? Another Creator. Let's keep going back with that logic. Eventually, there must be an original Creator whom is eternal in nature, having no beginning and no end - the original source of all things. So, logic still demands that there is an original source of all things which is eternal in nature, having always existed. It is absolutely the only solution to how things can exist. Now, for a Creator to make other Creators is kind of stupid, so I'd say we have one Creator as the origin of all things. He has endless energy, and since matter is made up of tiny energy particles, that means He transferred His energy into creating a physical realm in which we can live. He set the laws in place and ordered everything out into a perfect balance to support life on this planet.

Science has never once observed order coming from Chaos, nor an explosion creating an ordered, functioning system. Science has never seen something come from nothing either. Therefore, to say the Big Bang appeared from nothing, then exploded chaotically and created an ordered galaxy with balanced laws is simply an unscientific, irresponsible, illogical statement.

So, as you can see, it doesn't matter what you believe - scientifically, if something exists, there was someone who created it. There's no way around it.

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO
BrianC is offline  
post #16 of 81 (permalink) Old 06-05-2010, 08:14 AM
Punk Ass Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Hallsville/Longview Hickville TX.
Posts: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by msaleen007 View Post
Now for my real question. If God is all knowing and has created everything. He chose us in him before the creation of the world. Why would he create something if he aready knows the out come of the choices I will make or do I really have a choice.

Once again this is my struggle and I do believe in God. Just looking for some direction.

If God crated everything and knows everything then how do I really have a choice. He created the choice that he already knew I would make.
I like to think of it as a guy with an ant farm. He knows (for the most part) what the ants will do. He knows the life expectancy of the ants (give or take), and he knows that the ants think themselves to be free in body, mind, and choice. That being said... If he puts the ant farm in the freezer, they all die. Maybe this is a crappy analogy.

...Because it's Super-Badass!
jerevicious13 is offline  
post #17 of 81 (permalink) Old 06-06-2010, 11:53 AM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by jerevicious13 View Post
I like to think of it as a guy with an ant farm. He knows (for the most part) what the ants will do. He knows the life expectancy of the ants (give or take), and he knows that the ants think themselves to be free in body, mind, and choice. That being said... If he puts the ant farm in the freezer, they all die. Maybe this is a crappy analogy.
LOL Nice.

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO
BrianC is offline  
post #18 of 81 (permalink) Old 07-05-2010, 09:52 AM
Rockin' da fumanchu
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: On the straight and narrow,stumbling at best, only by Gods grace.
Posts: 7,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by msaleen007 View Post
Now for my real question. If God is all knowing and has created everything. He chose us in him before the creation of the world. Why would he create something if he already knows the out come of the choices I will make or do I really have a choice.

Once again this is my struggle and I do believe in God. Just looking for some direction.

If God crated everything and knows everything then how do I really have a choice. He created the choice that he already knew I would make.
Please forgive me for dropping the ball on answering your question.

God allows us choices, be they good or bad. In doing so, there are consequences for each that fit the choice we make.

Romans 8:28 (Amplified Bible)

28We are assured and know that [God being a partner in their labor] all things work together and are [fitting into a plan] for good to and for those who love God and are called according to [His] design and purpose.

Does that make sense?





Listen to my buddy, Jeff Bolton, from 6-9 AM Mon-Fri.

Obamanomics = Trickle Up Poverty

Think you need to format/reinstall your OS(XP), read this first.
Tx Redneck is offline  
post #19 of 81 (permalink) Old 07-05-2010, 01:27 PM
#4 Best QB Ever
 
That_Is_My_El_Camino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Land of the Free
Posts: 29,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC View Post
First, we know we exist because we have thought. I think therefore I am. If I did not exist, then I would not be thinking of anything, because it would be impossible. Now, I know this wall in my room exists, because no matter how hard I try, I cannot pass through it. It is a physical barrier with physical properties. So, just as I cannot pass through my wall without breaking it down, I cannot pass through the earth without boring through it or walking around it. Thus, it exists.
What's the proof that these walls exist, and that they (like everything else around you) aren't just made up in your mind?


Quote:
Originally Posted by DON SVO View Post
Women: vaginal life support.
That_Is_My_El_Camino is offline  
post #20 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-03-2010, 12:30 AM
Recovering Lush
 
HookEm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Saginaw, TX
Posts: 10,011
Here's the deal: God loves us. He earnestly seeks us. He wants us to desire an intimate relationship with His heart. He is not mostly mad, and mostly sad when it comes to man, but He rejoices in our lives. And, especially in our inquisitive ways.

The answers you seek, are best found via The Spirit. The Spirit gives us fresh revelation of The Word, and The Word opens us up to the Spirit. But we have to be active in this seeking. While God wants us to pursue Him, He won't do our part! Man has a part, in everything, as does God: He wn't do ours, and we can't do His.

I wasted years in a baggie and a bottle, then a few years reading everything I could before I really "got it." God bless you and good luck on your walk.

color=#606060]
Quote:
"The Father-heart of God was... thrilled with me -- an immature, mess-making spiritual infant... My heavenly Father was enjoying me while I was yet in the process of maturing, not sighing in disgust and waiting impatiently until I grew up. He loved and longed for me; He felt proud and was excited over me while I was falling short."
Quote:
Mike Bickle

[



Sober By Grace Ministries: A Ministry of The James 2:26 Project
[size=1]Where New Beginnings Start
www.soberbygrace.org
HookEm is offline  
post #21 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-18-2010, 09:11 PM
Moved to dfw mustangs.net
 
lowthreeohz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Hurst-Useless-Bedford area
Posts: 20,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC View Post
Whether you believe in the Bible or not has nothing to do with whether God created everything. lol

We know for certain that someone intelligent created everything. That is a demand of science for everything to be in existence. Let me break it down...

First, we know we exist because we have thought. I think therefore I am. If I did not exist, then I would not be thinking of anything, because it would be impossible. Now, I know this wall in my room exists, because no matter how hard I try, I cannot pass through it. It is a physical barrier with physical properties. So, just as I cannot pass through my wall without breaking it down, I cannot pass through the earth without boring through it or walking around it. Thus, it exists.

If something exists, that means it definitely has a point at which it was created. Otherwise, it appeared out of nowhere, with nothing to create it. And that is just completely illogical. Science has never observed something being created from nothing. Thus, we know the energy and matter of the Big Bang did not come out of nowhere. Someone created it from existing energy. A "creator" of some sort.

Now, some will say, "who created the Creator". Let's follow that logic. Let's say someone did create the Creator. Who created that guy? Another Creator. Let's keep going back with that logic. Eventually, there must be an original Creator whom is eternal in nature, having no beginning and no end - the original source of all things. So, logic still demands that there is an original source of all things which is eternal in nature, having always existed. It is absolutely the only solution to how things can exist. Now, for a Creator to make other Creators is kind of stupid, so I'd say we have one Creator as the origin of all things. He has endless energy, and since matter is made up of tiny energy particles, that means He transferred His energy into creating a physical realm in which we can live. He set the laws in place and ordered everything out into a perfect balance to support life on this planet.

Science has never once observed order coming from Chaos, nor an explosion creating an ordered, functioning system. Science has never seen something come from nothing either. Therefore, to say the Big Bang appeared from nothing, then exploded chaotically and created an ordered galaxy with balanced laws is simply an unscientific, irresponsible, illogical statement.

So, as you can see, it doesn't matter what you believe - scientifically, if something exists, there was someone who created it. There's no way around it.
You've hit a wall with there being "no way around it". Just because we haven't discovered or can't fathom how, doesn't mean it's impossible.

Don't forget witchcraft, magic, and a flat world were common beliefs for hundreds if not thousands of years. See how that turned out?

Science has been oppressed by religion for thousands of years, vastly crippling its acceptance and ability to spread. Finally we're at a point where we are beginning to see into deep space, thousands and thousands of years back, much longer than the bible says we've even existed.

I completely understand the need for a god in many peoples lives, and see how you believe since you were told it was that way from childhood. Who would want to think their parents and society lied to them the whole time? I wouldn't.

I just can't make myself believe in nothing. Just because it can't be explained, doesn't mean the one pseudo-explanation we do have is correct.
lowthreeohz is offline  
post #22 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 06:20 AM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowthreeohz View Post
You've hit a wall with there being "no way around it". Just because we haven't discovered or can't fathom how, doesn't mean it's impossible.

Don't forget witchcraft, magic, and a flat world were common beliefs for hundreds if not thousands of years. See how that turned out?

Science has been oppressed by religion for thousands of years, vastly crippling its acceptance and ability to spread. Finally we're at a point where we are beginning to see into deep space, thousands and thousands of years back, much longer than the bible says we've even existed.

I completely understand the need for a god in many peoples lives, and see how you believe since you were told it was that way from childhood. Who would want to think their parents and society lied to them the whole time? I wouldn't.

I just can't make myself believe in nothing. Just because it can't be explained, doesn't mean the one pseudo-explanation we do have is correct.
Science is a product of society as well, is it not?

Last edited by Mr Majestyk; 08-25-2010 at 07:36 PM.
Mr Majestyk is offline  
post #23 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 08:01 AM
Moved to dfw mustangs.net
 
lowthreeohz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Hurst-Useless-Bedford area
Posts: 20,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk View Post
Science is a product of society as wee, is it not?
Science has the ability to be tested and proven through experiment.

The same can't be said for religion.
lowthreeohz is offline  
post #24 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 08:08 AM
1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 f0 lyfe!
 
SS Junk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: under my junk
Posts: 7,049
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avery'sDad View Post
He is the brother of the flying spaghetti monster. After drinking tea from the tea cup that's in orbit somewhere between the earth and moon, the invisible pink unicorn mated with the dragon that you cant see, hear, or touch.

Hope that clears everything up.
Same can be said about the faith it takes to believe evolution. Let's take apart a wind up watch, put it in a bag and wait for a billion years in hopes it puts itself together! Yeah!

SS Junk is offline  
post #25 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 08:12 AM
Moved to dfw mustangs.net
 
lowthreeohz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Hurst-Useless-Bedford area
Posts: 20,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS Junk View Post
Same can be said about the faith it takes to believe evolution. Let's take apart a wind up watch, put it in a bag and wait for a billion years in hopes it puts itself together! Yeah!

If the watch were a living organism, your analogy would make sense.
lowthreeohz is offline  
post #26 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 08:22 AM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: hurst
Posts: 335
my only response to this is how are we (christians) the only one who knwo the "real" truth? why am I right while someone who was born 4 thousand miles away is wrong?

00 Excursion PSD tuned and bolt-ons (very quick for 5ton truck )
03 Toyota Prius "MarioKart"
97ssconvertible is offline  
post #27 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 08:33 AM
Moved to dfw mustangs.net
 
lowthreeohz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Hurst-Useless-Bedford area
Posts: 20,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by 97ssconvertible View Post
my only response to this is how are we (christians) the only one who knwo the "real" truth? why am I right while someone who was born 4 thousand miles away is wrong?
Especially with christianity being such a relatively new religion compared to some of the others. It doesn't make sense, and it's so close minded to think that X people are right while Y,Z, A, B, and C are wrong. Seems foolish.
lowthreeohz is offline  
post #28 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 10:54 AM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: temple
Posts: 924
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowthreeohz View Post
Science has the ability to be tested and proven through experiment.

The same can't be said for religion.


WRONG!!!!!


THEORY can be proven or disproven. and what is a theory? an idea created by a man or collective to rationally explain an event or occurance. Sound like religion to you?



My personal belief is that we were indeed created by something much greater then us, whether its christian God, Zeus, Allah, Mother Earth, etc etc, I don't know. I do believe that it is inherent human nature to NEED to believe in something greater then ourselves, because without fearing retribution (or receiving salvation) after death, what is there truly to live for? Religion is a form of control, and unfortunately, pretty much every known religion was formed with the intent and purpose of control and ultimately, power. The bible was ruined (IMO) when the catholic church got their grubby little hands on it.

I'm of the personal belief that I don't necessarily need to jump on a religious band wagon, but instead focus on living a good life, and help others and die eventually knowing I lived my life to the fullest without any regrets.

I think that God, whoever he/she/it is, would understand that without showing me (i.e. like the disciple Thomas) I cant buy into something blindly. That to me is more offensive then to doubt and decide to just say okay, there's obviously SOMETHING, but I don't know what, so I'll just live my life the best I can and continue learning spiritually and intellectually.

2008 Freightliner Columbia -- daily driver
2010 Jeep unlimited Rubicon
1991 toyota pickup with a few mods.
blk87coupe is offline  
post #29 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 10:57 AM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowthreeohz View Post
Science has the ability to be tested and proven through experiment.

The same can't be said for religion.
Science has the ability to be tested and proven because it is a creation of man, and obviously one can test and prove something of their own doing.

The affairs of God are not limited to or by mankind's creations or understanding in any way.
Mr Majestyk is offline  
post #30 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 10:59 AM
Moved to dfw mustangs.net
 
lowthreeohz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Hurst-Useless-Bedford area
Posts: 20,572
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by blk87coupe View Post
WRONG!!!!!


THEORY can be proven or disproven. and what is a theory? an idea created by a man or collective to rationally explain an event or occurance. Sound like religion to you?


Uh.. what do you call a theory that's been proven? Scientific.....fact? right? right. Therefore science CAN, and often is, proven.

Can religion prove ANYTHING? no. There's not even any archeological evidence to support most of what the Bible says.

Religion = theory.

science = theories that are tested, and proven to be fact or not.


I'll take the latter.
lowthreeohz is offline  
post #31 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 11:01 AM
Moved to dfw mustangs.net
 
lowthreeohz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Hurst-Useless-Bedford area
Posts: 20,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk View Post
Science has the ability to be tested and proven because it is a creation of man, and obviously one can test and prove something of their own doing.

The affairs of God are not limited to or by mankind's creations or understanding in any way.

Translation : "god works in mysterious ways and we shouldn't attempt to understand it."

Science, by your definition wouldn't be a creation of man, but of God himself, seeing as he's an omnipotent and all knowing being. Why would he position himself to be questioned in every facet, when he could just prove it to us and be done? We could still have free will to choose to believe what we've seen or not..right?
lowthreeohz is offline  
post #32 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 11:05 AM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowthreeohz View Post
Translation : "god works in mysterious ways and we shouldn't attempt to understand it."

Science, by your definition wouldn't be a creation of man, but of God himself, seeing as he's an omnipotent and all knowing being. Why would he position himself to be questioned in every facet, when he could just prove it to us and be done? We could still have free will to choose to believe what we've seen or not..right?
Wrong, I did not define science in my post. I stated it is a creation of man.
Mr Majestyk is offline  
post #33 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 12:18 PM
Moved to dfw mustangs.net
 
lowthreeohz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Hurst-Useless-Bedford area
Posts: 20,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk View Post
Wrong, I did not define science in my post. I stated it is a creation of man.
Which by proxy is a creation of God.
lowthreeohz is offline  
post #34 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 12:42 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowthreeohz View Post
Which by proxy is a creation of God.
No, a creation of man is not a creation of God, by proxy or otherwise.
Mr Majestyk is offline  
post #35 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 12:46 PM
Moved to dfw mustangs.net
 
lowthreeohz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Hurst-Useless-Bedford area
Posts: 20,572
If God created everything, how can you even defend that statement?

Science is just the observance and manipulation of things already happening in our world. God created those happenings, right?
lowthreeohz is offline  
post #36 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 02:15 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowthreeohz View Post
If God created everything, how can you even defend that statement?

Science is just the observance and manipulation of things already happening in our world. God created those happenings, right?
God did indeed create those things, but He did not create mankind's explanantions for and manipulations of those things. Those are done through mankind's exercise of his free will.
Mr Majestyk is offline  
post #37 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 05:17 PM
1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 f0 lyfe!
 
SS Junk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: under my junk
Posts: 7,049
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowthreeohz View Post
If the watch were a living organism, your analogy would make sense.
It makes perfect sense. Scientists who study evolution cannot prove how life came about. I mean there is always the big bang theory, but who is to say if a watch went through something like that it would not start the life process? Sounds ridiculous I'm sure, but some of the theories of evolution are far out there as well.
You state "I'll take the latter" regarding science and theories proven. Even if you feel theories, such as evolution, has been proven via science you still must have faith that what you are being told is actually true.

SS Junk is offline  
post #38 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 05:31 PM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: temple
Posts: 924
Low3oh, so scientific "fact" is never disproven? Let me ask you this. What is gravity? Not what the cause and effect of it is, but gravity itself? (I'll save you from the trouble) there is no explanation. All scientific "fact" does is try to explain WHY something happens, not what it actually is. There is no explanation for everything. The religious crowd believes God is the answer. I believe we are not meant to know, it is beyond our comprehension. It is just funny to me when people on both sides of the fence attack voraciously whenever a differing theory pops up that endangers the foundation of their belief system.

2008 Freightliner Columbia -- daily driver
2010 Jeep unlimited Rubicon
1991 toyota pickup with a few mods.
blk87coupe is offline  
post #39 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 10:14 PM
Moved to dfw mustangs.net
 
lowthreeohz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Hurst-Useless-Bedford area
Posts: 20,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by blk87coupe View Post
Low3oh, so scientific "fact" is never disproven? Let me ask you this. What is gravity? Not what the cause and effect of it is, but gravity itself? (I'll save you from the trouble) there is no explanation. All scientific "fact" does is try to explain WHY something happens, not what it actually is. There is no explanation for everything. The religious crowd believes God is the answer. I believe we are not meant to know, it is beyond our comprehension. It is just funny to me when people on both sides of the fence attack voraciously whenever a differing theory pops up that endangers the foundation of their belief system.

Please re-read my statement. I never implied all science is fact.I also never implied that science and it's results have never been proven wrong.

What is Gravity? It's a force that keeps matter together. I don't know where the relevance in that lies?

Attacking voraciously? Hardly. I'm trying to keep this as civil and on-topic as possible. I'm not here to rattle cages like some of the others in this forum.

Last edited by lowthreeohz; 08-19-2010 at 10:26 PM.
lowthreeohz is offline  
post #40 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-19-2010, 10:15 PM
Moved to dfw mustangs.net
 
lowthreeohz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Hurst-Useless-Bedford area
Posts: 20,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS Junk View Post
It makes perfect sense. Scientists who study evolution cannot prove how life came about. I mean there is always the big bang theory, but who is to say if a watch went through something like that it would not start the life process? Sounds ridiculous I'm sure, but some of the theories of evolution are far out there as well.
You state "I'll take the latter" regarding science and theories proven. Even if you feel theories, such as evolution, has been proven via science you still must have faith that what you are being told is actually true.

If this is the case, you would need an empty bag in which said watch appeared. That was not how it was presented.

I agree that tons of theories of our creation are out there... but when one makes some sense, and to a point can be proven, while the other is inexplicable, i tend to lean towards the answer with (some) of a leg to stand on.
lowthreeohz is offline  
post #41 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-20-2010, 06:11 AM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 7,017
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowthreeohz View Post
Attacking voraciously? Hardly. I'm trying to keep this as civil and on-topic as possible. I'm not here to rattle cages like some of the others in this forum.
True, your posts in this thread are excellent examples of those rare commodities known as politeness and maturity.

Last edited by Mr Majestyk; 08-23-2010 at 06:15 AM.
Mr Majestyk is offline  
post #42 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-20-2010, 05:09 PM
1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 f0 lyfe!
 
SS Junk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: under my junk
Posts: 7,049
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowthreeohz View Post
If this is the case, you would need an empty bag in which said watch appeared. That was not how it was presented.

I agree that tons of theories of our creation are out there... but when one makes some sense, and to a point can be proven, while the other is inexplicable, i tend to lean towards the answer with (some) of a leg to stand on.
The Big Bang Theory was proven?

SS Junk is offline  
post #43 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-20-2010, 08:51 PM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: temple
Posts: 924
Low3oh, I was just commenting in general. Didn't mean to make it seem like I was targeting you. It's always enjoyable to discuss religion with people that don't get their cages rattled. But ultimately nobody is right and nobody is wrong, because there's no proof either way. So really it's a pointless argument with no clear black and white answer at the end.

2008 Freightliner Columbia -- daily driver
2010 Jeep unlimited Rubicon
1991 toyota pickup with a few mods.
blk87coupe is offline  
post #44 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-20-2010, 09:18 PM
Lifer
 
Marisa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tarrant
Posts: 10,319
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS Junk View Post
The Big Bang Theory was proven?

Quit trying to twist my words. I have said exactly what I mean thus far, and I have never made that claim.

edit sorry i posted this from her comp.

l30z
Marisa is offline  
post #45 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-20-2010, 09:20 PM
Lifer
 
Marisa's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tarrant
Posts: 10,319
Quote:
Originally Posted by blk87coupe View Post
Low3oh, I was just commenting in general. Didn't mean to make it seem like I was targeting you. It's always enjoyable to discuss religion with people that don't get their cages rattled. But ultimately nobody is right and nobody is wrong, because there's no proof either way. So really it's a pointless argument with no clear black and white answer at the end.

No proof until you die and turn into worm dirt. Or ascend to the clouds to hang out with your grandparents. Either way it'll be too late to share the news.
Marisa is offline  
post #46 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-20-2010, 10:06 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Waco
Posts: 1,329
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS Junk View Post
It makes perfect sense. Scientists who study evolution cannot prove how life came about. I mean there is always the big bang theory, but who is to say if a watch went through something like that it would not start the life process? Sounds ridiculous I'm sure, but some of the theories of evolution are far out there as well.
You state "I'll take the latter" regarding science and theories proven. Even if you feel theories, such as evolution, has been proven via science you still must have faith that what you are being told is actually true.
For the record, Evolution isn't the study of how life started, it's the study of how life changes over time.
racrguy is offline  
post #47 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-21-2010, 08:43 AM
1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 f0 lyfe!
 
SS Junk's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: under my junk
Posts: 7,049
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa View Post
Quit trying to twist my words. I have said exactly what I mean thus far, and I have never made that claim.

edit sorry i posted this from her comp.

l30z
Not twisting anything. It was a question. The Big Bang is a theory. I think it is one of the strongest theories going right now for those who believe in evolution if I'm not mistaking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by racrguy View Post
For the record, Evolution isn't the study of how life started, it's the study of how life changes over time.
Right, which brings me right back to my point in those who believe in evolution must have faith that life was created biologically with no divine intervention. There is no scientific proof on how life started therefore those who believe in evolution must trust what they don't know. That's called having faith.

SS Junk is offline  
post #48 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-23-2010, 04:24 AM
Canada is welcome here.
 
justinsn95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: ft worth
Posts: 4,039
Quote:
Originally Posted by WisH4SvTs View Post
No one really knows. /Thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by racrguy View Post
For the record, Evolution isn't the study of how life started, it's the study of how life changes over time.
Exactly. This doesn't sit too well with atheists, but any scientist will tell you that no one has any idea how life started on earth. Science can't explain it. But atheists are all too stupid to realize these things. Your best bet is just to avoid talking to them altogether. They are more like insects that human beings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aksthem1 View Post
i think thedark1337 is a pretty cool guy. eh plays the game and doesnt afraid of anything


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chillaxed View Post
- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"
justinsn95 is offline  
post #49 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-23-2010, 09:09 PM
Moved to dfw mustangs.net
 
lowthreeohz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Hurst-Useless-Bedford area
Posts: 20,572
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinsn95 View Post
Exactly. This doesn't sit too well with atheists, but any scientist will tell you that no one has any idea how life started on earth. Science can't explain it. But atheists are all too stupid to realize these things. Your best bet is just to avoid talking to them altogether. They are more like insects that human beings.

Im sorry.. but if you are incapable of using "you're" correctly, you sure as fuck have no place calling anyone dumb.
lowthreeohz is offline  
post #50 of 81 (permalink) Old 08-24-2010, 04:40 AM
Canada is welcome here.
 
justinsn95's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: ft worth
Posts: 4,039
Quote:
Originally Posted by lowthreeohz View Post
Im sorry.. but if you are incapable of using "you're" correctly, you sure as fuck have no place calling anyone dumb.
I'm sorry, but if you're in capable of realizing that there is such a thing a shorthand, and that people are lazy, then you... some good comeback I can't think of right now. Would have have me type "laughing out loud" instead of lol as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aksthem1 View Post
i think thedark1337 is a pretty cool guy. eh plays the game and doesnt afraid of anything


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chillaxed View Post
- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"
justinsn95 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the DFWstangs Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome