Got to see Joel Osteen live today - DFWstangs Forums
 
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post #1 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-23-2010, 09:26 PM Thread Starter
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Got to see Joel Osteen live today

I was down in Houston for work so we made the trip on Sunday. I would definitely recommend seeing it in person. He is a great speaker and started the service with an amazing prayer.

I have seen him on TV before, but seeing it live was something new.

Just thought I'd share.

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post #2 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-24-2010, 12:20 PM
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post #3 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-24-2010, 12:22 PM
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He has a successful business

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post #4 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-26-2010, 12:24 AM Thread Starter
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He has a successful business
There's a reason businesses gain success; it's not luck.

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post #5 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-26-2010, 12:51 AM
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There's a reason businesses gain success; it's not luck.

The only place where success comes before work is the dictionary.
Is it safe to conclude from evidence or premise that you suggest he is successful because of his hard work?
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post #6 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-26-2010, 01:12 AM Thread Starter
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Is it safe to conclude from evidence or premise that you suggest he is successful because of his hard work?
A minister can work as hard as they want but if the quality of their message lacks they won't fill the pews... or arena.

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post #7 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-26-2010, 01:21 AM
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A minister can work as hard as they want but if the quality of their message lacks they won't fill the pews... or arena.
Oh really? So you're saying a minister has never fed THOUSANDS of people a blessed load of horseshit?

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post #8 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-26-2010, 06:17 AM
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i agree, he is an amazing speaker and usually delivers a powerful message. i am a fan. dont they own the summit now?

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post #9 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-26-2010, 09:49 AM
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i agree, he is an amazing speaker and usually delivers a powerful message. i am a fan. dont they own the summit now?

god bless.
Joel Olsteen is, I think, a business man. Maybe he's saved, maybe he's not. I don't know. What I do know is that he makes a TON of money off of God, and his messages do not go very in depth, which shows a bit of a lack of knowledge of God on his part, or an effort to taylor the messages strictly to what the people will like and what might make them feel good instead of teaching them the real indepth stuff. That's just my impression & opinion, though. I don't much care for mega-churches. I think their motives are compromised...

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post #10 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-26-2010, 12:12 PM
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Joel Olsteen is, I think, a business man. Maybe he's saved, maybe he's not. I don't know. What I do know is that he makes a TON of money off of God, and his messages do not go very in depth, which shows a bit of a lack of knowledge of God on his part, or an effort to taylor the messages strictly to what the people will like and what might make them feel good instead of teaching them the real indepth stuff. That's just my impression & opinion, though. I don't much care for mega-churches. I think their motives are compromised...
Hey, we finally agree on something Brian, cool
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post #11 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-26-2010, 12:35 PM
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Hey, we finally agree on something Brian, cool
lol Yeah, we do agree on plenty, I'm sure. I've seen it before in here.

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post #12 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-26-2010, 12:40 PM
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He's the current Robert Tilton, imo. Crooked as they come. There are thousands of others that fit under that umbrella as well.
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post #13 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-26-2010, 02:23 PM
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His main theme is:

Give to me (for God) and God will bless you with money.




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post #14 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-26-2010, 04:04 PM Thread Starter
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His main theme is:

Give to me (for God) and God will bless you with money.
That's not true at all. Like anything it's easier to say a reason why it won't work, or why it's not right. His sermon is watched by over 7 million people every week and only 10,000 or so are seeing it live. When people watch it online or on tv he doesn't advertise a number to tithe at. Not to mention at the end of his message all he says is join a good, bible based church and accept Jesus, nothing about joining Lakewood or tithing to him.

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post #15 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-26-2010, 06:28 PM
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As far as motivational speakers go, he is fantastic, as someone preaching the Gospel, I believe he has compromised his beliefs when he messed up on Larry king.




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post #16 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-26-2010, 07:22 PM Thread Starter
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As far as motivational speakers go, he is fantastic, as someone preaching the Gospel, I believe he has compromised his beliefs when he messed up on Larry king.



I don't have a problem with someone who says he will continue to preach his faith and let people do by their own. I'm not saying that to just dispute what you're saying, because I can see where you're coming from, but his tolerance of other religions doesn't bother me.

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post #17 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-26-2010, 07:29 PM
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I don't have a problem with someone who says he will continue to preach his faith and let people do by their own. I'm not saying that to just dispute what you're saying, because I can see where you're coming from, but his tolerance of other religions doesn't bother me.


I agree with you on the tolerance. I think a lot of people just thought he let them down by not coming right out and saying, "if you don't have Jesus you will be damned".

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post #18 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-26-2010, 08:34 PM
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I've seen Osteen on TV a few times, and I can't say that I've EVER seen him hold a Bible or quote any scripture. Granted, it has been several years, so something could have changed between then and now. But my statements below are still based on what I have seen.

Motivational speaker? Yes.

Minister of God? Not from what I've seen.

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post #19 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-27-2010, 04:14 AM
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That's not true at all. Like anything it's easier to say a reason why it won't work, or why it's not right. His sermon is watched by over 7 million people every week and only 10,000 or so are seeing it live. When people watch it online or on tv he doesn't advertise a number to tithe at. Not to mention at the end of his message all he says is join a good, bible based church and accept Jesus, nothing about joining Lakewood or tithing to him.
2 Timothy 4:2-4

2 Preach the word of God. Be prepared, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching.

3 For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will reject the truth and chase after myths.

His teaching, in some instances has a Biblical foundation, but for the most part he falls under the text of 2 Timothy 4:2-4





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post #20 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-01-2010, 11:56 PM
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I like him. He has some good stuff. He isn't a historian, nor does he fit a lot of different stuff in one message. He takes a couple of messages and explains things to people in a way they can relate to them.

I don't see him beg for money. Do I think he brings in a lot of donations? Yes. Look at how many people watch him on TV and fill the stadium!! If 5% of the people watching him sent his ministry money they will receive a lot of money. I think it is weird that Christians will bash him because he has a big ministry that obviously brings in a lot of money. His ministry reaches out to millions of people. It costs a lot of money to get the message out as much as he does. He is spreading the Word to the World. I can't bash him for that. After all, that is what God told us to do right? How any Christian can bash him is beyond me. He reaches more people in 30 minutes than 97% of Christians will in a lifetime.
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post #21 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 12:01 AM
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He is spreading the Word to the World. I can't bash him for that. After all, that is what God told us to do right? How any Christian can bash him is beyond me. He reaches more people in 30 minutes than 97% of Christians will in a lifetime.
For me, the money isn't the big deal, as I've never seen Osteen push for money. The deal with Osteen is the fact that he doesn't preach the Gospel as the Apostles taught it, instead he has a very fluffy Gospel that is light on sin, judgment, wrath, the holiness of God, .etc and very heavy on man's potential, love, thinking positive, etc.

As far as his teaching, he doesn't teach the Bible. Period. Using one verse as a platform to launch into stories and motivational pep talk is not a preacher.
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post #22 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 02:06 AM
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For me, the money isn't the big deal, as I've never seen Osteen push for money. The deal with Osteen is the fact that he doesn't preach the Gospel as the Apostles taught it, instead he has a very fluffy Gospel that is light on sin, judgment, wrath, the holiness of God, .etc and very heavy on man's potential, love, thinking positive, etc.

As far as his teaching, he doesn't teach the Bible. Period. Using one verse as a platform to launch into stories and motivational pep talk is not a preacher.
Don't get me wrong. I see what you are saying about the one verse to launch into stories. He seems to be going for a more of quality message that people will remember, instead of cramming a lot of different scriptures and messages in that may overwelm some to where they won't remember it.


But, the "fluffy Gospel" I can't agree with. Since a born again believer is no longer held under the law. I don't understand why so many Christians are trying to earn Gods love and acceptance by trying to live holy. You can't earn it. It's a free gift. The Scribes and Pharisees lived Holier than any of us can imagine, and they were the only people that Jesus ever rebuked. He didn't rebuke the drunks, whores, publicans, tax collectors, etc. because they weren't relying on their own self rightiousness and trying to earn their salvation like the scribes and pharisees. I am not saying to go run out and live in sin. Jesus freed us from sin, not to sin. But, people need to realize that we are already accepted by God reguardless of what we have done(ie. "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.") or what we will do. We are saved by grace, not by our works. God will love you the same if you live in sin or walk the straight and narrow. God's love for us doesn't change. Living holy doesn't affect God's love towards us. But, living holy will affect our love towards God. The holier we live the more sensitive our hearts are to God. If we go live in sin our hearts harden towards God. Living holy is a by-product of knowing God. The more you know God, the holier you will be on accident. It becomes practically effortless.

Love is the foundation to Christianity. "God is love.", "Faith works by love.", "Perfect love casts out fear." etc. I don't think love is taught enough. Love is the key to knowing God. The more we truely understand God's love towards us, the less we will desire to sin, because hearts become filled with God's desires and not our own.

Judgement, sin, and wrath only applies to a non-believer, it doesn't apply to the born again believer. Love is a better motivation for someone to get born again. But, it becomes necessary to bring the law up to a non-believer if they think they will make it to heaven by their own goodness. The law is just to show people what God's standard is, so people would see how fowl the really were, and basically say, "God this is too much, I can never live up to this standard!! Have mercy!!"....and Jesus is that mercy.

God made it so easy for us to be saved from damnation, it is mind boggling to me how anyone could ever not receive Salvation, and receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior. God asks for nothing in return. Just for someone to say, "Lord Jesus, I ask you to forgive me for my sins, come into my heart, I receive you as my Lord and Savior." All anyone has to do is accept a free gift from God. The people that know but don't accept this gift I compare to a person stranded out in the dessert dying of thirst, and another person comes to offer them a free glass of water. But, they say, "No, I don't need it.". It just makes no sense to me.

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post #23 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 10:31 AM
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For me, the money isn't the big deal, as I've never seen Osteen push for money. The deal with Osteen is the fact that he doesn't preach the Gospel as the Apostles taught it, instead he has a very fluffy Gospel that is light on sin, judgment, wrath, the holiness of God, .etc and very heavy on man's potential, love, thinking positive, etc.

As far as his teaching, he doesn't teach the Bible. Period. Using one verse as a platform to launch into stories and motivational pep talk is not a preacher.
While I do not like "fluffy" teaching, I am okay with people whom teach positive messages and whom do not get all heavy on the doom and gloom. I say that because, as Christians, we are not supposed to be focusing on the bad stuff. It has nothing to do with us, really. Our focus should be on God and the positive. Sure, we can learn about wrath, judgment and sin, but it is not to be our focus at all. Those things are to be just small components in a much bigger, brighter, more positive picture of what it is to live in peace with God and help others. It's not gonna' help many unsaved people if we go up to them and say, "You're going to hell you sinner!" LOL And besides, we don't know if they will be saved eventually or not, so we cannot know if they are going to hell, thus we shouldn't be focusing on such things (and I am not saying you were claiming we should focus on those things). Just giving my 2 cents.

Personally, I don't care for Olsteen. Seems like a nice guy... might be saved, might not be... doesn't matter to me. He is not very knowledgeable about God and his teaching is so surface level it's sad. He admitted he's not educated much in Christianity and he sort of just stepped into the position when the last pastor died. lol But, at least he does understand some of the big picture things and the importance of positivity. I'll give him that.

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post #24 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 01:16 PM
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It would be naive and presumptuous to assume that the 30 thousand in the audience and millions who watch him on tv every week are saved, so this talk of not needing to talk about harder things because they are not for believers is a really bad argument.

If no one is driven to despair and shown there need for Christ, Christ does not seem all that important, and Christ is merely a means to their "best life now".
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post #25 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 05:51 PM
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It would be naive and presumptuous to assume that the 30 thousand in the audience and millions who watch him on tv every week are saved, so this talk of not needing to talk about harder things because they are not for believers is a really bad argument.

If no one is driven to despair and shown there need for Christ, Christ does not seem all that important, and Christ is merely a means to their "best life now".
Agreed 100%.





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post #26 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 06:10 PM
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Don't get me wrong. I see what you are saying about the one verse to launch into stories. He seems to be going for a more of quality message that people will remember, instead of cramming a lot of different scriptures and messages in that may overwelm some to where they won't remember it.


But, the "fluffy Gospel" I can't agree with. Since a born again believer is no longer held under the law. I don't understand why so many Christians are trying to earn Gods love and acceptance by trying to live holy. You can't earn it. It's a free gift. The Scribes and Pharisees lived Holier than any of us can imagine, and they were the only people that Jesus ever rebuked. He didn't rebuke the drunks, whores, publicans, tax collectors, etc. because they weren't relying on their own self rightiousness and trying to earn their salvation like the scribes and pharisees. I am not saying to go run out and live in sin. Jesus freed us from sin, not to sin. But, people need to realize that we are already accepted by God reguardless of what we have done(ie. "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.") or what we will do. We are saved by grace, not by our works. God will love you the same if you live in sin or walk the straight and narrow. God's love for us doesn't change. Living holy doesn't affect God's love towards us. But, living holy will affect our love towards God. The holier we live the more sensitive our hearts are to God. If we go live in sin our hearts harden towards God. Living holy is a by-product of knowing God. The more you know God, the holier you will be on accident. It becomes practically effortless.

Love is the foundation to Christianity. "God is love.", "Faith works by love.", "Perfect love casts out fear." etc. I don't think love is taught enough. Love is the key to knowing God. The more we truely understand God's love towards us, the less we will desire to sin, because hearts become filled with God's desires and not our own.

Judgement, sin, and wrath only applies to a non-believer, it doesn't apply to the born again believer. Love is a better motivation for someone to get born again. But, it becomes necessary to bring the law up to a non-believer if they think they will make it to heaven by their own goodness. The law is just to show people what God's standard is, so people would see how fowl the really were, and basically say, "God this is too much, I can never live up to this standard!! Have mercy!!"....and Jesus is that mercy.

God made it so easy for us to be saved from damnation, it is mind boggling to me how anyone could ever not receive Salvation, and receive Jesus as their Lord and Savior. God asks for nothing in return. Just for someone to say, "Lord Jesus, I ask you to forgive me for my sins, come into my heart, I receive you as my Lord and Savior." All anyone has to do is accept a free gift from God. The people that know but don't accept this gift I compare to a person stranded out in the dessert dying of thirst, and another person comes to offer them a free glass of water. But, they say, "No, I don't need it.". It just makes no sense to me.
Nice post


Just to give you a little back ground with out making a huge post.
I started watching him on TV about 5 years ago. I liked his positive message. I keep getting into it more and more raising my bible ect....

Well, I took his advise after a year of watching and went to a local church here in Fort Worth and it has changed my life. Only other time I had been to church was for funerals.

I think everyone has a role from planting a seed, to watering, and harvesting it.

Joel got me in the door and broke down the barriers for me to attend a local Church. I believe that's his job (Hes a planter). Once you get involved in a local church then you start understanding more of the bible and getting a deeper insight.

Anytime, I watched any other preacher on TV I would just turn the channel as I had no reason to watch that crap or listen to it. But, when it was put to me in Joel's perspective. It broke down those barriers and mental blocks I had about church.

You have to remember it's all about Baby steps. You didnt learn to read,write,or talk overnight as a Baby. Same thing goes for the bible it takes time to understand, believe, prayer and walk with faith.

Now, I'm a born again believer thanks to Jesus Christ for bring people like Joel Osteen in my life.


I try not to Judge anyone. But, alot of people (Christians) judge Osteen when it clearly states in the bible not to Judge for you will be Judged. So, the way I look at it. I dont agree with alot of other Televangelist Pastors out there I just wont follow there teaching. The Lord knows what's right and wrong and he will Judge himself at that time.

Were only here for a short time. We came in the world with nothing and we leave with nothing. I want my treasure up there with Him.

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post #27 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-02-2010, 09:32 PM
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It would be naive and presumptuous to assume that the 30 thousand in the audience and millions who watch him on tv every week are saved, so this talk of not needing to talk about harder things because they are not for believers is a really bad argument.

If no one is driven to despair and shown there need for Christ, Christ does not seem all that important, and Christ is merely a means to their "best life now".

Not everyone gets saved with the "turn or burn" approach. Non-believers know what sin is. The reason most people don't accept Christianity is because they think they have to be perfect to be accepted. The only time you need to shove the law down someones throat is when someone thinks they can make it to heaven on their own goodness. But, other than that you should minister grace. Grace & Mercy will save more people than hellfire and brimstone. Love is a better motivation than fear.
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post #28 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-03-2010, 08:34 PM
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Not everyone gets saved with the "turn or burn" approach. Non-believers know what sin is. The reason most people don't accept Christianity is because they think they have to be perfect to be accepted. The only time you need to shove the law down someones throat is when someone thinks they can make it to heaven on their own goodness. But, other than that you should minister grace. Grace & Mercy will save more people than hellfire and brimstone. Love is a better motivation than fear.
Generally, that's true. Every once in a while you run across someone that for some reason needs to understand just how sinful we all are for them to understand they aren't getting to heaven on their good merits. lol But that's pretty rare that I've had to use that approach with interested people.

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post #29 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-03-2010, 10:52 PM
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Generally, that's true. Every once in a while you run across someone that for some reason needs to understand just how sinful we all are for them to understand they aren't getting to heaven on their good merits. lol But that's pretty rare that I've had to use that approach with interested people.

Yeah, it is rare. I know people that aren't born again, but are considered Holy by man's standards (ie. "they don't drink, cuss or chew or run with those that do"...and are liked by everyone because they are nice to be around and easy to get along with.). They don't claim to be atheist, but think, if there is a God they will good enough to make it heaven. The sad thing is...the people/preachers/tv/movies/etc that misunderstand the Bible and preach or speak that you have to be holy/good to be accepted by God, are the ones that give people like this the mind set they have (thinking they will make it if they aren't too bad).

I remember as a kid I was scared into being saved (ie. turn or burn method). I guess it is better to be scared into it than never receive it.lol The problem with getting saved that way was, I didn't have any urge to build a relationship with God. I was afraid of God's wrath. I thought that everytime I sinned, I had to get saved again.lol I was under bondage.

In the early 90's my mom and dad heard Andrew Wommack on the radio and he had a good message. He offered his teaching tapes for free (and back then that is all my parents could afford.lol). So they started getting tapes from him and would listen to them all the time. At first I didn't like the sound of his voice because when he was younger he sounded like Ross Perot.lol But, when I would ride to work with my dad, I had no choice but to listen to it...because you didn't change my dad station.lol I would catch myself getting into his teachings and it started transforming my life. Once I found out how much God loves me, I was hooked. I wanted to know more and more. I was seeking God, instead of hiding from God. It made me want to open my Bible and read it, because I wanted to know God more. I have been listening to him ever since. He is now on tv, but I still go old school and listen to the audio's. His audio teachings on "God's Kind of Love, The Cure for what Ale's Ya.", "The True Nature of God", "Hardness of Heart", "Four Keys to Staying Full of God" are some of my favorites. But, all of his teachings are awesome. I have never heard anyone minister Love and Grace like he does. Hands down the best Minister out there.IMO I love his website, because you can download all of his teachings(tv or audio) free. It's 20 years later and I am still on fire for God. Fear can get you saved, but Love and Grace will get you born again.

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post #30 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-03-2010, 11:53 PM
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Not everyone gets saved with the "turn or burn" approach. Non-believers know what sin is. The reason most people don't accept Christianity is because they think they have to be perfect to be accepted. The only time you need to shove the law down someones throat is when someone thinks they can make it to heaven on their own goodness. But, other than that you should minister grace. Grace & Mercy will save more people than hellfire and brimstone. Love is a better motivation than fear.
Your error is to assume that just because you go deeper into truths taught in the Bible you must somehow be a "turn or burn" preacher.

Preachers that preach through the Bible get to preach on the subject that comes up. It could be on love, mercy, judgment, wrath, or whatever. The Scriptures dictates what is taught, not the preacher picking through the Bible to find verses that support his stories.
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post #31 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-06-2010, 12:06 PM
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Yeah, it is rare. I know people that aren't born again, but are considered Holy by man's standards (ie. "they don't drink, cuss or chew or run with those that do"...and are liked by everyone because they are nice to be around and easy to get along with.). They don't claim to be atheist, but think, if there is a God they will good enough to make it heaven. The sad thing is...the people/preachers/tv/movies/etc that misunderstand the Bible and preach or speak that you have to be holy/good to be accepted by God, are the ones that give people like this the mind set they have (thinking they will make it if they aren't too bad).

I remember as a kid I was scared into being saved (ie. turn or burn method). I guess it is better to be scared into it than never receive it.lol The problem with getting saved that way was, I didn't have any urge to build a relationship with God. I was afraid of God's wrath. I thought that everytime I sinned, I had to get saved again.lol I was under bondage.

In the early 90's my mom and dad heard Andrew Wommack on the radio and he had a good message. He offered his teaching tapes for free (and back then that is all my parents could afford.lol). So they started getting tapes from him and would listen to them all the time. At first I didn't like the sound of his voice because when he was younger he sounded like Ross Perot.lol But, when I would ride to work with my dad, I had no choice but to listen to it...because you didn't change my dad station.lol I would catch myself getting into his teachings and it started transforming my life. Once I found out how much God loves me, I was hooked. I wanted to know more and more. I was seeking God, instead of hiding from God. It made me want to open my Bible and read it, because I wanted to know God more. I have been listening to him ever since. He is now on tv, but I still go old school and listen to the audio's. His audio teachings on "God's Kind of Love, The Cure for what Ale's Ya.", "The True Nature of God", "Hardness of Heart", "Four Keys to Staying Full of God" are some of my favorites. But, all of his teachings are awesome. I have never heard anyone minister Love and Grace like he does. Hands down the best Minister out there.IMO I love his website, because you can download all of his teachings(tv or audio) free. It's 20 years later and I am still on fire for God. Fear can get you saved, but Love and Grace will get you born again.
Yeah, I listened to Andrew Wommack for years. He's one of the few out there who really understands truth pretty well. He's one of the better teachers you'll find.

The only problems I have with Andrew Wommack is his use of tongues and his belief that a person can give back their salvation. Both are unbiblical, and he admits the former is not backed up in scripture. It was in one of his books "The True Nature of God" if I'm not mistaken.

In regard to tongues, we are using a very different tongues nowadays than what they used in the first century church. Did you know Pagans back then spoke in tongues even before Christ? The Corinthian church was right in the middle of tons of Paganism, and they all started out as Pagans. That's why that church was having the problems with tongues speakers. Paul reprimanded them for it. And if you break it down properly and you translate tongues into "languages" instead of "tongues", it makes so much more sense. "Tongues", in the first century, was a functional tool with a purpose: it was used to communicate with the people whom did not speak your language. And interpretation of tongues was used for the same purpose but from the receiver's aspect.

For instance, a friend of mine says he was at a talk given by a Jew to Christians. This was a Messianic Jew. He told the Christians all about Christ's love and forgiveness, etc.. Well, this French lady was there and spoke no English at all. Afterward, the lady spoke with someone there in French and said that she had gotten saved listening to the man talk. Apparently, she had wondered in off the street into this talk. She stated that the speaker had the most beautiful French. They said, "He was speaking English, though." She said that she heard him in French and did not speak English at all. That's the gift of interpretation of tongues, and its use. Another friend of mine went on a mission trip to Guatamala and didn't speak a lick of Spanish because they were miming for the people there. She walks up to a bum on the beach and witnesses to him in perfect Spanish and understands his Spanish perfectly. He gets saved and she walks away, unable to speak anymore Spanish. This is exactly how the Anabaptists of the 1600s describe their missionaries speaking in "tongues" or "other languages". It always happens this way, and someone always gets saved because of it. As for the tongue spirit people use today, read Neil T. Anderson's The Bondage Breaker and/or Ellis H. Skolfield's Demons in the Church. Neil tells multiples stories of having to command out, in Jesus' name, the tongues spirit from Charismatics or Pentacostals.

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post #32 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-06-2010, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Phillystang View Post
Your error is to assume that just because you go deeper into truths taught in the Bible you must somehow be a "turn or burn" preacher.

Preachers that preach through the Bible get to preach on the subject that comes up. It could be on love, mercy, judgment, wrath, or whatever. The Scriptures dictates what is taught, not the preacher picking through the Bible to find verses that support his stories.
Unfortunately, today, most of the time, preachers do just preach by picking through the Bible to find verses that support their stories...

- Brian
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post #33 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-07-2010, 04:27 PM
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Yeah, I listened to Andrew Wommack for years. He's one of the few out there who really understands truth pretty well. He's one of the better teachers you'll find.

The only problems I have with Andrew Wommack is his use of tongues and his belief that a person can give back their salvation. Both are unbiblical, and he admits the former is not backed up in scripture. It was in one of his books "The True Nature of God" if I'm not mistaken.

In regard to tongues, we are using a very different tongues nowadays than what they used in the first century church. Did you know Pagans back then spoke in tongues even before Christ? The Corinthian church was right in the middle of tons of Paganism, and they all started out as Pagans. That's why that church was having the problems with tongues speakers. Paul reprimanded them for it. And if you break it down properly and you translate tongues into "languages" instead of "tongues", it makes so much more sense. "Tongues", in the first century, was a functional tool with a purpose: it was used to communicate with the people whom did not speak your language. And interpretation of tongues was used for the same purpose but from the receiver's aspect.

For instance, a friend of mine says he was at a talk given by a Jew to Christians. This was a Messianic Jew. He told the Christians all about Christ's love and forgiveness, etc.. Well, this French lady was there and spoke no English at all. Afterward, the lady spoke with someone there in French and said that she had gotten saved listening to the man talk. Apparently, she had wondered in off the street into this talk. She stated that the speaker had the most beautiful French. They said, "He was speaking English, though." She said that she heard him in French and did not speak English at all. That's the gift of interpretation of tongues, and its use. Another friend of mine went on a mission trip to Guatamala and didn't speak a lick of Spanish because they were miming for the people there. She walks up to a bum on the beach and witnesses to him in perfect Spanish and understands his Spanish perfectly. He gets saved and she walks away, unable to speak anymore Spanish. This is exactly how the Anabaptists of the 1600s describe their missionaries speaking in "tongues" or "other languages". It always happens this way, and someone always gets saved because of it. As for the tongue spirit people use today, read Neil T. Anderson's The Bondage Breaker and/or Ellis H. Skolfield's Demons in the Church. Neil tells multiples stories of having to command out, in Jesus' name, the tongues spirit from Charismatics or Pentacostals.

I can see where you might have an issue with tongues. I myself pray in tongues. If I am wrong, God knows my heart and knows that I am not doing it for evil purposes. But, honestly I see great results from it. The way I see it, is if I am wrong it isn't going to hurt any. Maybe just be a waste of my time. But, I want everything God has to offer. I don't want to put limits on the power of God in my life. You see tongues meaning something different than I do. But, if you are wrong then you put a limit on God to where you won't see that part manifest in your life. If I am wrong then I have nothing to lose except a little of my time. Either way we will both still go to Heaven and God still loves us.

I know what you are talking about with the "losing your Salvation". Maybe you misunderstood what he was saying. He said, you can't lose your salvation by any sin or works you do, but you can willfully reject it. If you say, I no longer want to serve you (in sound mind) God will honor that and turn you over to a reprobate mind. He also said that people always tell him after he ministers on that, " I have done that, does that mean I lost my salvation?". He said, basically if you truely reject your Salvation and God, you will no longer have any desire to seek God or follow him, because you would have a reprobate mind. Another good way he put it was....If you had a kid that was 5 years old that said I no longer want to be your son, you wouldn't hold him to that even the law wouldn't hold him to that. But, if he turns 30 and says that, he can legally break ties with you and the law will allow him. So basically, a baby Christian wouldn't be held accountable, but say if me or you decided to throw in the towel and reject God after we have already come to know him and tasted the Love of God. He will respect our decision. But, if someone was to truely do that, they would not care or want to know God ever again, because they would be reprobate. Kind of like the devil...he willfully rejected God and I don't think he is going to make it back to heaven.lol
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post #34 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-07-2010, 04:43 PM
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Your error is to assume that just because you go deeper into truths taught in the Bible you must somehow be a "turn or burn" preacher.

Preachers that preach through the Bible get to preach on the subject that comes up. It could be on love, mercy, judgment, wrath, or whatever. The Scriptures dictates what is taught, not the preacher picking through the Bible to find verses that support his stories.
Oh no. I am not saying to only teach the things people want to hear. I fully believe in the whole Bible and believe it all should be taught. But, basically the wrath of the OT should be countered by the grace of the NT. When I say, "turn or burn" I am talking about the people who say if you sin you are going to hell. A born again believer no longer has his sins imputed unto him. They are teaching basically, that you have to be sin free to be accepted by God, when the truth is we are all already accepted by God (believers and non-believers) and salvation is something you can't earn, it is a free gift that you receive.
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post #35 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-07-2010, 10:17 PM
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Did his wife assault any flight attendants while you were there?

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Meh...I dunno why she likes it. It's like she put it on a pedestal because it is the gravy of life.
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post #36 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-07-2010, 10:17 PM
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Oh no. I am not saying to only teach the things people want to hear. I fully believe in the whole Bible and believe it all should be taught. But, basically the wrath of the OT should be countered by the grace of the NT. When I say, "turn or burn" I am talking about the people who say if you sin you are going to hell. A born again believer no longer has his sins imputed unto him. They are teaching basically, that you have to be sin free to be accepted by God, when the truth is we are all already accepted by God (believers and non-believers) and salvation is something you can't earn, it is a free gift that you receive.
What about original sin?

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Meh...I dunno why she likes it. It's like she put it on a pedestal because it is the gravy of life.
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post #37 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 08:34 AM
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I can see where you might have an issue with tongues. I myself pray in tongues. If I am wrong, God knows my heart and knows that I am not doing it for evil purposes. But, honestly I see great results from it. The way I see it, is if I am wrong it isn't going to hurt any. Maybe just be a waste of my time. But, I want everything God has to offer. I don't want to put limits on the power of God in my life. You see tongues meaning something different than I do. But, if you are wrong then you put a limit on God to where you won't see that part manifest in your life. If I am wrong then I have nothing to lose except a little of my time. Either way we will both still go to Heaven and God still loves us.

I know what you are talking about with the "losing your Salvation". Maybe you misunderstood what he was saying. He said, you can't lose your salvation by any sin or works you do, but you can willfully reject it. If you say, I no longer want to serve you (in sound mind) God will honor that and turn you over to a reprobate mind. He also said that people always tell him after he ministers on that, " I have done that, does that mean I lost my salvation?". He said, basically if you truely reject your Salvation and God, you will no longer have any desire to seek God or follow him, because you would have a reprobate mind. Another good way he put it was....If you had a kid that was 5 years old that said I no longer want to be your son, you wouldn't hold him to that even the law wouldn't hold him to that. But, if he turns 30 and says that, he can legally break ties with you and the law will allow him. So basically, a baby Christian wouldn't be held accountable, but say if me or you decided to throw in the towel and reject God after we have already come to know him and tasted the Love of God. He will respect our decision. But, if someone was to truely do that, they would not care or want to know God ever again, because they would be reprobate. Kind of like the devil...he willfully rejected God and I don't think he is going to make it back to heaven.lol


We can't have the power to give it back if we don't have the power to earn it in the first place. John 10:28 comes to mind. The two can't jive together. You either are or you aren't, permanently.

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post #38 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 12:56 PM
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Here you go...

Christ makes it crystal clear here that “whosoever” is ashamed of Him and won’t speak His “words” before men, will be rejected on Judgment Day. The Almighty is not impressed with man’s temporary popularity; in fact He says it’s one evidence of the “false prophets.” (Lk. 6:26; 16:15)

“As the aging Robert Schuller, Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and Paul Crouch are being retired and shown the door, a spanking brand-new generation of ministers and evangelists are being ushered in by the Devil to take their place. The new preachers--men like California's Pastor Rick Warren (The Purpose-Driven Life) and Texas' Joel Osteen (Your Best Life Now) are flashy, shiny, and smiley. They use positive talk, make people feel good, and get them to thinking about ‘Me, Me, Me, Me...’ The Rick Warrens and Joel Osteens evade topics like sin, judgment, Hell, and condemnation.
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post #39 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 01:14 PM
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Here you go...

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post #40 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-08-2010, 01:37 PM
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Best clip ever!!!!! lol

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post #41 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-09-2010, 09:09 PM
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Here you go...

And people pay money to see that choreagraphed routine?

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Meh...I dunno why she likes it. It's like she put it on a pedestal because it is the gravy of life.
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post #42 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-09-2010, 10:50 PM
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What about original sin?

Our sins are forgiven from yesterday(past), today(present) and forever(future).
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post #43 of 43 (permalink) Old 06-09-2010, 11:08 PM
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We can't have the power to give it back if we don't have the power to earn it in the first place. John 10:28 comes to mind. The two can't jive together. You either are or you aren't, permanently.
We have the power to accept or reject it. But, it isn't a common thing for a truely born again believer to up and reject it.lol First of all they would have to be out of the word for a long time (and harden their heart) and maybe get caught up in some kind of other religious beliefs, fall for the evolution theories, or some athiests foolish idea. But, once you turn into a reprobate there is no turning back. You will never again have a desire to seek God. So, if anyone is wondering if they are damned to hell because they may have gotten upset at God and said they give up and quit believing out of anger. But, started believing again anytime after that (from an hour to 100yrs later). You are not a reprobate. A reprobate will despise God and never want anything to do with him. If you have any love for God this rejection/damnation doesn't apply to you. So don't worry.lol
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