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post #1 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 07:02 AM Thread Starter
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Answer This One Calvinists

Quick question for Calvinists: Does God ever make mistakes and have regret over those mistakes?

Revision: Alright, I lured in Philly and made him look like an idiot, so anyone can comment now if they like.

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post #2 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 07:57 AM
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It's a fallacy, just like "Can God make a stone so heavy that even He can't move it". You make the assumption that God exists bound by the physical properties of the Universe, namely time. "Time" as we are bound by doesn't apply to God who exists outside of his Creation (and thereby outside of Time itself). If there is no linear action and reaction, then there is no argument.

From the moment of Creation, it was and it exists as perfection. What happens within that Creation can't be a mistake, just a result of events. To term something as a "mistake" implies a judgement of God which is also a fallacy in that you should know the mind of God.
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post #3 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 08:01 AM
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That sounds a little too perfect to me. Things that make you go , HMMMM?
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post #4 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 08:04 AM
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post #5 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 08:08 AM Thread Starter
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It's a fallacy, just like "Can God make a stone so heavy that even He can't move it". You make the assumption that God exists bound by the physical properties of the Universe, namely time. "Time" as we are bound by doesn't apply to God who exists outside of his Creation (and thereby outside of Time itself). If there is no linear action and reaction, then there is no argument.

From the moment of Creation, it was and it exists as perfection. What happens within that Creation can't be a mistake, just a result of events. To term something as a "mistake" implies a judgement of God which is also a fallacy in that you should know the mind of God.
This is a "leading" question for Calvinists. It appears one way but for another reason. If you're not Calvinist, don't answer the question, please.

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post #6 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 08:15 AM
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This is a "leading" question for Calvinists. It appears one way but for another reason. If you're not Calvinist, don't answer the question, please.
fyi, there are plenty of non-Calvinists that don't think God makes "mistakes".

From the dictionary:

mistake - an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc.

You are accusing God of this? That's not the God of the Bible my friend.
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post #7 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 08:16 AM Thread Starter
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Ahhh, very good, Philly. So you believe God does not make mistakes. And I agree. However, tell me this: if God controls the will of people, why would He allow the following:

Genesis 6:5-6
5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

So, if God could control man's will, all God had to do was cause these people to be His people and follow His ways and not sin. And yet, He didn't do that and He repented of ever making mankind. So God was so upset by the fact that mankind was doing so much evil to each other, He was sorry He even made them.

According to your beliefs, God can control mankind and MAKE mankind want to server Him and do righteousness. We have proof that people were saved before Jesus came (Matthew 27 says the "saints" from the past rose from their graves, implying they were "sanctified", meaning saved. We see evidence of it in the Old Testament too). So, we know one could be saved prior to Christ's coming, especially since we see Revelation say that Christ was crucified when the earth was created. Therefore, why would God allow that much evil and lack of salvation on earth if He could've simply compelled the people to be saved? Why go through the heartache and trouble of wiping them all out and starting over with 8 people? Why did He do it if He could've caused it not to happen?

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post #8 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 08:18 AM Thread Starter
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fyi, there are plenty of non-Calvinists that don't think God makes "mistakes".

From the dictionary:

mistake - an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc.

You are accusing God of this? That's not the God of the Bible my friend.
LOL How quickly you jump to conclusions just from a simple question. It is not I who believe God makes mistakes. Your doctrine is what causes God to have "made mistakes", because your doctrine says God can make people get saved, and yet scripture says evil ran ramptant throughout the earth and God was sorry He ever made men. Well, sorry, man... if God could've fixed that problem by making people get saved back then, He could've caused those people to follow Him, be saved, and not commit so much sin. So, by your own doctrine, God made mistakes and had bad judgement and should've done things differently.

You see... free-will explains this incident perfectly. Mankind, having a perfect world prior to the flood, an environment that woud allow them to live nearly 1000 years, caused them not to get humbled quite so easily, and God says only the humble come to Him, not the prideful. So the way God caused people to want to get saved is by destroying the perfect world and causing it to be a world where the environment was much less hospitable for us to grow and live. This caused us to live only around 100 years, and sickness and disease spread and suddenly, mankind is much more able to be humbled by his dispositions. After the flood, we see many more people accepting and following God rather than the single bloodline that followed Him prior to the flood. So... why are you Calvinists saying God made mistakes, eh?

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post #9 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 08:19 AM
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Whatever dude. Enjoy watching your trap so you can post up with your predetermined response.
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post #10 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 08:24 AM Thread Starter
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Whatever dude. Enjoy watching your trap so you can post up with your predetermined response.
So let me get this straight. Just because you responded without being a Calvinist and just because I explained why I asked the question, you're upset with me over your misunderstanding of the question being presented? It's not like I was rude to you or anything. Why get upset with me? This was specifically for Calvinists, and I needed only them to answer so this thread doesn't get congested right from the beginning with posts which are not relevant to the topic at hand. That's why I said to refrain from posting initially unless you're Calvinists.

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post #11 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 08:33 AM
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Therefore, why would God allow that much evil and lack of salvation on earth if He could've simply compelled the people to be saved? Why go through the heartache and trouble of wiping them all out and starting over with 8 people? Why did He do it if He could've caused it not to happen?
Simple answer is God didn't desire to intervene just yet. Do you really think Noah was righteous apart from God's grace upon him?

But for you I ask...
How does God reserve 7000 in Israel who do not serve Baal in 1 Kings 19:18, which is referenced to in Romans 11:4&5 as being "chosen by grace" ?

Romans 11
1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me" ? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Notice, this is very important... "So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace"
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post #12 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 08:39 AM Thread Starter
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Simple answer is God didn't desire to intervene just yet. Do you really think Noah was righteous apart from God's grace upon him?

But for you I ask...
How does God reserve 7000 in Israel who do not serve Baal in 1 Kings 19:18, which is referenced to in Romans 11:4&5 as being "chosen by grace" ?

1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me" ? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.
LOL Trying to redirect now, eh? Sorry, but God DID intervene. He was with Enoch and that whole family line. Why? Because Adam had seen God with his own eyes and knew he was the first human, and that was passed down generation to generation. Also, God said He would blot out His face from mankind, so apparently, people could see Him back then, possibly more regularly. It would seem that this one line seemed to stay in relationship with God. So He was intervening, but He was forcing no one's will. And that's the only bloodline, it would seem, that kept relationship with Him.

Your answer is sad. Because if your god is so great and can change the hearts of men, He just allowed billions of people to go to hell when He COULD have done something about it. He just sat idlely by and watched them all do horrible things to one another and let them all burn in hell. And by your doctrine, Jesus went to hell and rubbed it in later by making proclamation to them as the New Testament states. How sick and twisted your god is... Savior of the world? No, your god enjoys people going to hell to "show his glory", according to your words... One must enjoy it if they do it to benefit them. How sick...

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post #13 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 08:51 AM
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LOL Trying to redirect now, eh? Sorry, but God DID intervene. He was with Enoch and that whole family line. Why? Because Adam had seen God with his own eyes and knew he was the first human, and that was passed down generation to generation. Also, God said He would blot out His face from mankind, so apparently, people could see Him back then, possibly more regularly. It would seem that this one line seemed to stay in relationship with God. So He was intervening, but He was forcing no one's will. And that's the only bloodline, it would seem, that kept relationship with Him.

Your answer is sad. Because if your god is so great and can change the hearts of men, He just allowed billions of people to go to hell when He COULD have done something about it. He just sat idlely by and watched them all do horrible things to one another and let them all burn in hell. And by your doctrine, Jesus went to hell and rubbed it in later by making proclamation to them as the New Testament states. How sick and twisted your god is... Savior of the world? No, your god enjoys people going to hell to "show his glory", according to your words... One must enjoy it if they do it to benefit them. How sick...
My answer is very relevant to your question. How does God reserve a remnant of 7000 who do not bow the knee to Baal in 1 Kings 19:18?

Paul in Romans, commenting on the 1 Kings passage, says they were chosen by grace. Deal with it.
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post #14 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 09:35 AM Thread Starter
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My answer is very relevant to your question. How does God reserve a remnant of 7000 who do not bow the knee to Baal in 1 Kings 19:18?

Paul in Romans, commenting on the 1 Kings passage, says they were chosen by grace. Deal with it.
Oh, awesome!! You admit your god is murderous and cruel. You didn't deny anything I said about your god, and in fact, you backed up my point that your god makes these horrible things happen. Nice job. Thanks for the help, but I don't really need it.

No, your question doesn't try to answer me... it tries to divert from the fact that your god is a cruel individual. You neglect to mention that I am right in my assessment of your beliefs about your cruel, evil God, while backing up my claims about what you believe.

If you know anything about numbers meanings in the Bible, you'd know that 7000 is most likely a symbolic number which the prophet would understand to mean a complete multitude of people. Ask any Israeli about this number. They'll tell you 7 means completion (7 days to complete creation and rest from the work), and a thousand means a multitude of people. So 7 thousand, to a Jew reading this, means a large, complete, number of Jews, not exact 7,000. Is it possible He meant exact 7,000? Sure, it's possible. But knowing how 7 and 1000 are significant numbers in Hebrew in the Bible, the indication is that this is symbolic of many people, not literal of 7,000.

Let's say I tell God nowadays, "I am the only Christian left." And His answer is, "I have reserved 7,000 whom do not bow the knee to Ba'al." It's a figurative statement. Or He could answer, "I have reserved 2 billion people." Now, is God going to answer the exact number of people? (2, 365,463,324) No. God's going to give a nice round number like He always does. And His "reserving them" for Himself is nothing more than Him saying that those are the people whom have chosen Him of their own free-will.

EVERYONE Is chosen by grace, because no one comes to god without first accepting God's grace He has given to us. Why would Jesus tell us to ASK Him for salvation? Why would He tell us to "knock and it will be opened"? Why would He tell us that we have not because we ask not? Why is He ASKING us to do anything when it's HIS choice to save us and HIS doing?? Why is He requiring us to respond of our own free-will? Why do we NEVER ONCE see God force anyone to do things against their free-will in the Bible? All we see is Him making their lives difficult till they willingly submit to what He wants them to do (speaking of Jonah, in this instance). But the fact is, they must choose on their own. He cannot make them do it, and never does He force anyone's free-will, ever.

So, while you claim there is no free-will, you cannot show one instance in the Bible where free-will is completely circumvented. I find it very odd that God would give give us no free-will, and then NEVER ONCE use His ability in to control us, per the Bible's situations. Gee, isn't that a bit contradictory?

Sorry, but you haven't a leg to stand on. By all means, keep posting your proofs that God forces us against our will. All you're doing is making your god look like a horrible individual whom no one will want to have anything to do with. Good job. (Oh, and why bother debating if you're right? Why is it so important? Why bother helping people know who God is if it's predestined anyway? You should go about your life and stop trying to get converts. God'll take care of that part, right??) lol What a sucker.

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post #15 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 10:52 AM
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This is a classic BrianC post... you can't handle what the text says, so you insert free will into it and offer emotionally-charged arguments that are foreign to anything in reality.

Do you have anything new?

What's your purpose in these kinds of posts?

p.s.

Here's a proverb that will make your head spin... lol

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.
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post #16 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 10:59 AM
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Quick question for Calvinists: Does God ever make mistakes and have regret over those mistakes?

Revision: Alright, I lured in Philly and made him look like an idiot, so anyone can comment now if they like.
First you ask if God makes mistakes, then you agree that God doesn't make mistakes. lol.
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post #17 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 01:20 PM Thread Starter
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First you ask if God makes mistakes, then you agree that God doesn't make mistakes. lol.
Wow, you really are debate-challenged. lol Do you not know these types of baiting methods used in debate? If you read the Bible more, you might see some of them used. For instance, Paul uses this one all the time. He asks a question such as: "since the more sin abounds the more grace increases to encompass it, should we go sin more so that grace may abound more? No!" (paraphrased) It's called Reductio Ad Absurdum, meaning "reduce to absurdity". I ask questions which are clearly stupid questions to get a certain response out of you. Then you make the response so I can agree with your response, then I turn it on you, because your response makes your position contradictory. That's a good debate tactic used by Paul all the time.

I just needed you to say He doesn't make mistakes to confirm that Calvinists believe He doesn't make mistakes, so that I could then show how that's a contradiction of their doctrine, because if free-will isn't present, then your doctrine says He admits He made a mistake in the Genesis 6 passage where He regrets making mankind due to their evil (evil which He could've stopped, according to you). lol Just one giant contradiction... If He could've stopped it, then there is no reason to wipe out 4-11 billion people (calculations range from 4-11 billion people back then due to their long lifespans and the fact that they could give birth at ages even later than 130 years old, and were doing so).

What's great is that you are not denying anything I said about your beliefs. You are full accepting that God screwed over all those people instead of saving them and He was doing so "for His 'glory'" according to you. I mean, wow... you would think you'd at least deny something that made your god look bad, but no... you suck it up, accept it, and believe that's just who God is. Nice. Thanks again for making my point for me.

You are so much fun to toy with, and you make it so easy. And notice that not one person has come to your aid to agree with you on topics of free-will? It's because I always made a solid argument, and you never have a good argument. People have, however, agreed with me in here frequently. Gee... you'd think your pride would eventually shut down and say, "Hmmm... maybe I should search for truth instead of just spouting my doctrines, because maybe these people I'm getting all of this stuff from are wrong." But no... you refuse to be wrong. It doesn't matter if you are right or not... you just don't want to be wrong. That's all that matters to you.

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post #18 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 04:07 PM
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I just needed you to say He doesn't make mistakes to confirm that Calvinists believe He doesn't make mistakes, so that I could then show how that's a contradiction of their doctrine, because if free-will isn't present, then your doctrine says He admits He made a mistake in the Genesis 6 passage where He regrets making mankind due to their evil (evil which He could've stopped, according to you). lol Just one giant contradiction... If He could've stopped it, then there is no reason to wipe out 4-11 billion people (calculations range from 4-11 billion people back then due to their long lifespans and the fact that they could give birth at ages even later than 130 years old, and were doing so).
I fail to see the contradiction buddy. He could have stopped the evil but He chose not to because it serves His greater purposes.
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post #19 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 04:12 PM
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What's great is that you are not denying anything I said about your beliefs. You are full accepting that God screwed over all those people instead of saving them and He was doing so "for His 'glory'" according to you. I mean, wow... you would think you'd at least deny something that made your god look bad, but no... you suck it up, accept it, and believe that's just who God is. Nice. Thanks again for making my point for me.
God judges sinners, this is bible 101. I'm not sure why it's not registering with you. It sounds like you have never read Romans 9...

15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Yep, it says it clear as day... it does not depend on the man who wills. This single handedly destroys your prime false doctrine of free will, yet you disregard it. It also says God will have mercy on whom He chooses, another aspect that contradicts the things you are trying to vouch for here.

Scripture 2, Brian 0
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post #20 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-08-2010, 04:13 PM
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You are so much fun to toy with, and you make it so easy. And notice that not one person has come to your aid to agree with you on topics of free-will? It's because I always made a solid argument, and you never have a good argument. People have, however, agreed with me in here frequently. Gee... you'd think your pride would eventually shut down and say, "Hmmm... maybe I should search for truth instead of just spouting my doctrines, because maybe these people I'm getting all of this stuff from are wrong." But no... you refuse to be wrong. It doesn't matter if you are right or not... you just don't want to be wrong. That's all that matters to you.
Truth is not determined by majority my friend. I'll take the side of truth any day over what feels good or what's popular to the world.
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post #21 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-09-2010, 08:04 AM Thread Starter
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I fail to see the contradiction buddy. He could have stopped the evil but He chose not to because it serves His greater purposes.
Oh really? And what is His greater purpose? Please explain how purposely condemning the first 4-11 billion people on earth serves His this greater purpose.

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post #22 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-09-2010, 08:13 AM Thread Starter
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God judges sinners, this is bible 101. I'm not sure why it's not registering with you. It sounds like you have never read Romans 9...

15For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Yep, it says it clear as day... it does not depend on the man who wills. This single handedly destroys your prime false doctrine of free will, yet you disregard it. It also says God will have mercy on whom He chooses, another aspect that contradicts the things you are trying to vouch for here.

Scripture 2, Brian 0
Wow, you are dense. You're like a little mini-Calvin running around that can't think for himself.

Don't you see what Paul is saying? He says that our salvation is not anything WE can provide for ourselves, but something that only we can get from God. That's the reason it depends on HIM not our will! In other words, Paul's saying that our will is not gonna' get us to heaven, but rather, it's God's sacrifice that gets us to heaven. God says He will have mercy upon whom? He says He will have mercy upon all who call on His name, asking for forgiveness in humbleness, truly believing that He died for our sins and rose again. It's that simple. God set His criteria for whom He would save, and that was His criteria. People who ask to be saved with a sincere, humble heart, will be saved, because those are the ones God wills to be saved. Again, it is not saying that God's will is saving the people... it's saying that the people cannot save themselves apart from God's sacrifice.

Your doctrine has made you intellectually stupid and completely destroyed your reading comprehension. All you see are little Calvin's running around on the pages of the Bible. lol

As for God judging sinners, you haven't a clue what this means. God's judgement is simply exposing what's in their hearts (whether they actually love Him or themselves), and then giving them what they want (Him or separation from Him). It's that simple. He's not vengfully smiting these people, as you believe He is. Again, this just shows your lack of understanding of what love is. I doubt your parents showed you what real love is and that's probably why you don't understand what God's love is actually like.

God's greater purpose is stated in 2 Peter 3:8-9, that everyone repent and come to the knowledge of God. God would have it that EVERYONE is saved (and you'll say that only means Christians, but there's no proof of that contextually), and so since that's God will, your god failed. End of story.

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post #23 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-09-2010, 08:13 AM Thread Starter
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Truth is not determined by majority my friend. I'll take the side of truth any day over what feels good or what's popular to the world.
Spoken like a true cult member. Bravo.

I go against the majority on some things, but the majority also have much correct, as well. I don't pit myself against them all. I just seek the truth in each area. Your doctrine just simlpy degrades your intelligence. You are a product of the American schooling system that teaches us to accept what our teachers say and not think critically about what we're assessing. Trust me, I know, because my wife is a PhD at the company that's been granted a ton of money by the State of Texas to start implimenting a new teaching method at grades 7 and up which impliments a lot of critical thinking since it's absent in the curiculum. You, my friend, are a perfect example of this. You believe only what you're told, and you cannot think past that point. Nothing else is comprehendible for you. It's your way or the highway. It's the arrogance of trusting in knowledge and the teachers of it. Until you start trusting God for truth instead of mankind, you'll continue to fail and get torn up in debates just like I keep doing to you. And all you're doing is turning people off of God, not leading them toward him... doing a fine job of it, too.

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post #24 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-09-2010, 08:17 AM
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Spoken like a true cult member. Bravo.
Like what I typed has anything to do with being in a cult? Clearly you have run out of anything intelligent to reply with and have reverted to using baseless claims in your pathetic attempt of a response. Very sad.
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post #25 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-09-2010, 08:28 AM Thread Starter
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Like what I typed has anything to do with being in a cult? Clearly you have run out of anything intelligent to reply with and have reverted to using baseless claims in your pathetic attempt of a response. Very sad.
WOW, thank you for proving my point that you have no reading comprehension.

You said, "Truth is not determined by majority my friend. I'll take the side of truth any day over what feels good or what's popular to the world."

The #1 thing you hear from cultists, such as Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses and other cults is exactly what you said, "Truth is not determined by majority my friend. I'll take the side of truth any day over what feels good or what's popular to the world."

In other words, I'm smarter than you and the rest of the world, because I know the truth and the rest of you are idiots. That's what you're saying. Every cult depends on pride in knowledge for them to exist.

The way you can tell a prideful idiot seeking just to be right from a humble seeker of truth is in this one fact: the pridefu person will never say they'll research what has been shared with them if it goes against their beliefs, where as a humble person will say, "That's very interesting, and could possibly disprove something I believe, and so I am definitely going to research that."

You have never once, in any of the debates I've seen on here, said you will look into something that contradicted or disproved what you believe. Not once. I frequently look into things people present in their arguments, and in doing so, I have found, throughout the years, that sometimes I was wrong and I had to go searching for the truth. You find your truth strictly from the closed-minded prideful Calvinistic teachers and that's it. I wonder if you've ever actually learned from God one single day in your life, because you sure don't know how to listen to anyone else, and you have zero respect for elders whom display proofs that go against your beliefs. None whatsoever.

You, sir, are basically a cultist in the way you believe. There's no heart in it at all. It's strictly a knowledge thing for you. And if there's any opposition, you will never consider it. That's exactly how Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are, because if any of their beliefs are disproven, it all comes crumbling down. And so they are brainwashed to believe they have the perfect truth, 100%, and never to avert from that truth they've learned. Sounds just exactly like you.

My guess is that your parents were very religious people (not in a good way), and very prideful, and you were also prideful and butted heads with them. And when you found something that made you feel smarter than them, as if you knew something they didn't, you jumped on it. And now this is your subconscious rebellion against your parents... your way of feeling superior to them. It's just a guess, though.

Have fun, cultie.

- Brian
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post #26 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-10-2010, 12:19 AM
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Oh really? And what is His greater purpose? Please explain how purposely condemning the first 4-11 billion people on earth serves His this greater purpose.
Romans 9
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory
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post #27 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-10-2010, 12:25 AM
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Spoken like a true cult member. Bravo.

I go against the majority on some things, but the majority also have much correct, as well. I don't pit myself against them all. I just seek the truth in each area. Your doctrine just simlpy degrades your intelligence. You are a product of the American schooling system that teaches us to accept what our teachers say and not think critically about what we're assessing. Trust me, I know, because my wife is a PhD at the company that's been granted a ton of money by the State of Texas to start implimenting a new teaching method at grades 7 and up which impliments a lot of critical thinking since it's absent in the curiculum. You, my friend, are a perfect example of this. You believe only what you're told, and you cannot think past that point.
So since I don't agree with you, I am not a critical thinker. Good one Brian, lol.

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Nothing else is comprehendible for you. It's your way or the highway. It's the arrogance of trusting in knowledge and the teachers of it. Until you start trusting God for truth instead of mankind, you'll continue to fail and get torn up in debates just like I keep doing to you.
Haha, so because I disagree with you, I am trusting not in God but in mankind. That's mighty bold of you Brian. I couldn't imagine anything more prideful someone could say than that.

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And all you're doing is turning people off of God, not leading them toward him... doing a fine job of it, too.
How so?
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post #28 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-10-2010, 12:52 AM
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Wow, you are dense. You're like a little mini-Calvin running around that can't think for himself.
I think completely for myself. Where do I once bring up someone else? That's right, this is just another baseless claim.

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Don't you see what Paul is saying? He says that our salvation is not anything WE can provide for ourselves, but something that only we can get from God. That's the reason it depends on HIM not our will! In other words, Paul's saying that our will is not gonna' get us to heaven, but rather, it's God's sacrifice that gets us to heaven.
Ahh, but in your view God's sacrifice is not enough to secure anyone's salvation. Salvation therefore must depend on man's will in your view to seal the deal. God just happens to get lucky that some men and women do their part to make salvation possible.

In the biblical view, salvation does depend on God.

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God says He will have mercy upon whom? He says He will have mercy upon all who call on His name, asking for forgiveness in humbleness, truly believing that He died for our sins and rose again. It's that simple. God set His criteria for whom He would save, and that was His criteria. People who ask to be saved with a sincere, humble heart, will be saved, because those are the ones God wills to be saved. Again, it is not saying that God's will is saving the people... it's saying that the people cannot save themselves apart from God's sacrifice.
Where is that in THIS text we are discussing?


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Your doctrine has made you intellectually stupid and completely destroyed your reading comprehension. All you see are little Calvin's running around on the pages of the Bible. lol
Is this meant to be serious? Where do I ever mention Calvin?

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As for God judging sinners, you haven't a clue what this means. God's judgement is simply exposing what's in their hearts (whether they actually love Him or themselves), and then giving them what they want (Him or separation from Him). It's that simple. He's not vengfully smiting these people, as you believe He is. Again, this just shows your lack of understanding of what love is. I doubt your parents showed you what real love is and that's probably why you don't understand what God's love is actually like.
Are you going to give another message on manipulation? lol.

Why do some love God and some hate Him?

You must ask why the language of "vengeance" and "smiting" is even in the bible if you deny that the Lord does this. Careless use of language here on your part when the bible so clearly describes the Lord as doing these things.

Numbers 31:3
So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance on them.

Numbers 14:12
"I will smite them with pestilence and dispossess them, and I will make you into a nation greater and mightier than they."


Once again, we see that the Scriptures rebuke your teachings here Brian.

Scriptures 3, Brian 0

(notice I don't need Calvin or any other man to argue from the viewpoint of)

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God's greater purpose is stated in 2 Peter 3:8-9, that everyone repent and come to the knowledge of God. God would have it that EVERYONE is saved (and you'll say that only means Christians, but there's no proof of that contextually), and so since that's God will, your god failed. End of story.
What? How you think my God failed is beyond me? Proof contextually that it only means Christians is that in the CONTEXT of last days writing to comfort the CHRISTIANS telling them that God is patient with them, that the day of judgement would not occur until every one who is to believe comes to repentance.

If your view is correct, then the Day of Judgement will never take place because God's equal patience would have to wait for every single person ever born to come to repentance.

As for God failing, it is YOUR view that paints God as a failure.
Anyone who can read can clearly see the syllogism:

If...

A. God would have everyone saved

B. Everyone is not saved

then...

C. God failed at some point in not saving everyone and gets lucky for the one's that decide to take Him up on His offer of salvation.


or we could say...

A. God wants no one in the entire world (not simply Christians) to perish

B. Some perish

C. God failed

---

On the biblical side, my view affirms that God does not fail:

1. All that the Father gives to Jesus will come to Jesus
(John 6:37)

2. He will save His people from their sins
(Matthew 1:21)

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post #29 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-10-2010, 01:16 AM
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The way you can tell a prideful idiot seeking just to be right from a humble seeker of truth is in this one fact: the pridefu person will never say they'll research what has been shared with them if it goes against their beliefs, where as a humble person will say, "That's very interesting, and could possibly disprove something I believe, and so I am definitely going to research that."
Are you serious? Who here has done the research and actually changed their beliefs? It is me that changed my beliefs. I was humble enough to let go of my free will tradition and see that there is truth in something else. Your words here are meaningless because you are the one who is stuck on one position, and it is me that has shown that there is room for growing and changing positions.

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You have never once, in any of the debates I've seen on here, said you will look into something that contradicted or disproved what you believe. Not once. I frequently look into things people present in their arguments, and in doing so, I have found, throughout the years, that sometimes I was wrong and I had to go searching for the truth. You find your truth strictly from the closed-minded prideful Calvinistic teachers and that's it. I wonder if you've ever actually learned from God one single day in your life, because you sure don't know how to listen to anyone else, and you have zero respect for elders whom display proofs that go against your beliefs. None whatsoever.
Respect? Like when you call me a prideful, cultie idiot? Sorry, your hypocrisy is overwhelming here my friend.

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You, sir, are basically a cultist in the way you believe. There's no heart in it at all. It's strictly a knowledge thing for you. And if there's any opposition, you will never consider it. That's exactly how Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are, because if any of their beliefs are disproven, it all comes crumbling down. And so they are brainwashed to believe they have the perfect truth, 100%, and never to avert from that truth they've learned. Sounds just exactly like you.
And how does it not sound like you? You can't answer that, because it clearly goes both ways. I have been the one that once shared the same view as you, and it is me that saw truth in a different perspective. It is me that was convinced from your viewpoint to another. You have shown no sign of changing when it comes to this topic. Sorry buddy, you are clearly speaking of yourself here and not me.

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My guess is that your parents were very religious people (not in a good way), and very prideful, and you were also prideful and butted heads with them. And when you found something that made you feel smarter than them, as if you knew something they didn't, you jumped on it. And now this is your subconscious rebellion against your parents... your way of feeling superior to them. It's just a guess, though.
Awww, now we have a little prophet who knows about my parents and religious upbringing. Nice try, but your psycho analysis of me couldn't be any further from the truth. (Not that truth means much to you though.)
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post #30 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-10-2010, 09:26 PM Thread Starter
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Romans 9
21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory
Nice job of disproving yourself...

I asked you what God's purpose is in condemning the FIRST 4-11 billion people on earth. You gave a verse that speaks of ENDURING those whom are prepared for wrath for the sake of those prepared for glory. In other words, your verses prove that God WOULD NOT just wipe everyone out, but instead, be patient till the end (when He executes His wrath) to take care of those whom did not accept Him, but rather persecuted His people.

Bravo for buring yourself deeper and once again helping my argument! Wow, your reading comprehension is horrific... Where did you go to school so I can make sure my kid(s) don't go there. lol

- Brian
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post #31 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-10-2010, 09:42 PM Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=Phillystang;6197864]So since I don't agree with you, I am not a critical thinker. Good one Brian, lol.
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No, as I stated before, I showed how the verses were not saying what you thought they said, but rather something completely different, and from that is where my comments originated. Had you had any reading memory and comprehension, you would've picked up on that. It has nothing to do with whether you agree with me. It has everything to do with the fact that I proved how you completely misunderstood the passages and twisted them to mean something completely different that doesn't even make sense.

Again, LEARN READING COMPREHENSION. Not sure the big letters will help you any, though.

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Haha, so because I disagree with you, I am trusting not in God but in mankind. That's mighty bold of you Brian. I couldn't imagine anything more prideful someone could say than that.
You see? You continue to further prove my point that this is about you being right. You jumped to the conclusion, twice in this post, that I am saying that you are wrong because you don't agree with me. It has nothing to do with you agreeing with me. It has everything to do with the evidence I displayed before which showed your interpretation of these passages are completely incorrect and off-base, because you're not coming even close to comprehending them properly. If you could give one good argument and properly discern the meaning of a passage, I would gladly acknowledge that. Unfortunately, though, that's a rare event, and so I'm forced to point out your lack of reading skills.


How so?
How are you turning people off to God?? WOW you really ARE dense! LOL

Oh, gee, let me see... you're telling non-believers that, because they do not believe in God, they are not chosen by Him and they never have a chance of being saved if He hasn't chosen them. So what incentive does that give them to seek God? Also, that just down-right pisses a person off. They suddenly say, "What right does God have to circumvent my free-will? If I want to do right and ask forgiveness and be saved, that should be my choice, not His! That's just cruel!" Then they'll turn away from Him completely. But here's the deal... if you are wrong, and there is free-will, then you just turned away a person whom could have been saved, but now has no chance of it due to your false doctrine.

I was helping a lady a while back. She was multiple. She had a few hundred alternate personalities. One of the pastoral counselors she saw told her she just must not be chosen by God and that's why she's not saved and having all these troubles. That absolutely CRUSHED this girl. Who the hell gave that guy the right to judge whether someone is or isn't saved? And what made him think it was a good idea to say so in the first place? It was extremely unprofessional, and cause this lady to attempt to kill herself, and she completely went away from God for quite some time, very angry with Him and hating herself, because she figured she wasn't good enough for God. It devistated her. In fact, I would disprove this biblically for her, and yet, emotionally and irrationally, she would still, from time-to-time, retreat back to that ideal, which would send her into a tale-spin again and she would bottom out and try to kill herself again.

You think your so special, as if this knowledge you believe is wisdom makes you someone "smart", and you taut it like you're one of the "chosen", all the while, not seeing the destruction that lay in the path where you've walked.

When you approach God in the end, not only will you hear, "Depart from me. I never knew you." You will also see the lives you ruined by what you did, and it will haunt you forever in hell. Don't you dare ask me "how" your doctrine turns people away from God one more time, you monumental @$$. I have seen what your doctrine does to people I love and care for and spent years helping to recover and heal. Maybe someday you'll see how it affects someone and destroys them and that black, shrivelled, pathetic prune you call a heart will start to work for a change and you'll realize how much damage you're doing to people and think, "Maybe I should watch what I say and seek the truth more fervently to make sure I'm not doing the wrong thing." God doesn't use His people to go around devistating other people for fun. God puts us here to comfort people and give them hope and show them the way. The enemy is just toying with you, boy.

- Brian
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post #32 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-10-2010, 10:22 PM Thread Starter
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I think completely for myself. Where do I once bring up someone else? That's right, this is just another baseless claim.
Really? REALLY?? Are you gonna' just flat out lie? First of all, you quote exactly the verses other Calvinists quote, and in private conversations, you've listed out all of the teachers you listen to on the radio! ALL CALVINISTS! LOL I mean, come on, man... stop trying to "win" the debate and start being truthful for a change. You're just waisting my time...

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Ahh, but in your view God's sacrifice is not enough to secure anyone's salvation. Salvation therefore must depend on man's will in your view to seal the deal. God just happens to get lucky that some men and women do their part to make salvation possible.

In the biblical view, salvation does depend on God.
Once again, you show your complete and utter lack of critical thinking. I'm sorry your brain doesn't work past step 1 of the deduction and reasoning process. I can't cure stupid.

You still don't get it... that nothing matters without free-will, and you can't even see how it makes God a horrific, tyrannical psychopath. I mean, that's just sad... And you don't realize how it is LOVE to ALLOW us to choose for ourselves. God can do everything in His power to push us in the right direction and encourage us to make the right decision on salvation, but He cannot make that choice for us. To make that choice for us is not love. It's hate. Because it chooses one over another and doesn't give the unchosen one chance to repent or do anything to save themselves. How sick and twisted is that?

I want to see you in a seat of authority choosing to lives or dies and tell me how glorious and loving it makes you feel. You'd double over and start throwing up like a little girl the first time you had to choose someone to die and had to watch them die. You sit and judge the rest of us as if we're stupid because we don't see the non-existent lack of free-will in scripture like you apparently do, but all you're doing is showing how badly you've been schooled...



Quote:
Where is that in THIS text we are discussing?
And now you're showing that you don't know the Bible very well, which we already were well aware of...

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Learn your Bible, man! You're lookin' like a complete idiot here. These are very well known verses.

Quote:
Is this meant to be serious? Where do I ever mention Calvin?
Seriously?? Holy crap... You're now going to play this game with me? In our private discussions, we've discussed how your views are Calvinistic and we even discussed Calvin himself! You're like the most Calvinistic person I know! Dude, you need to stop playing these "I just wanna win the debate" games... It's making you look really pathetic, like you're just grasping for straws and trying to be deceptive. It's blatant. We all know you're a Calvinist. In fact, this thread was a challenge to Calvinists! The fact that you're answering it means you're Calvinist! How stupid do you have to be to try to suddenly distance yourself from Calvinism when it's that obvious??

Quote:
Are you going to give another message on manipulation? lol.

Why do some love God and some hate Him?

You must ask why the language of "vengeance" and "smiting" is even in the bible if you deny that the Lord does this. Careless use of language here on your part when the bible so clearly describes the Lord as doing these things.

Numbers 31:3
So Moses said to the people, "Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites and to carry out the LORD's vengeance on them.

Numbers 14:12
"I will smite them with pestilence and dispossess them, and I will make you into a nation greater and mightier than they."


Once again, we see that the Scriptures rebuke your teachings here Brian.

Scriptures 3, Brian 0

(notice I don't need Calvin or any other man to argue from the viewpoint of)
Oh, I have no problem with what you just said. You're exactly right and I believe exactly the same. The problem is...

I wasn't talking about the Old Testament! I'm talking about end-time prophecy! Did you not catch that?? Prior to Christ's coming, God had reason to carry out His wrath on mankind and was fully justified in doing so to protect His people from those seeking to kill them. But once Jesus came, the world was reconciled to God through Jesus' blood. Jesus purchased EVERYONE. And now, everyone has to make a choice as to whether they will accept Jesus or deny Him. He said, in the New Testament, that He's reserving His wrath for the day of the Lord. So He's holding it back.

What I was referring to specifically was end-time prophecy. In the end, God's wrath is simlpy tossing people into hell, because they wanted separation from God. It's what they wanted if they didn't choose Him, and so He's giving it to them. All of the language you see in prophecy which speaks of horsemen and armageddon is just figurative language which the people in those days could relate to, because the lives involved things being used in the descriptions. Most of it is speaking about what's happening in the spiritual realm. For instance, horsemen always symbolizes evil spirits. We know this because Zecheriah 6:1-9 tells us what horsemen symbolize in prophecy. The Old Testament tells us that seas/oceans are symbolic for people, and beasts are nations, and horns are leaders of nations, etc. (refer to Daniel 7-8). It's all figurative language.

Think about it like this... we're told that every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord in the end. How can people on earth do that if He and His army are slaughtering those people? It makes no sense. No, He's coming back and everyone will bow in His presence and confess He is Lord, and then He will judge what's in their hearts and give them what they want. Everything in the Old Testament, the things Israel went through and what Israel represented and what the Law was for... all of that was so that God could use it as an example and shape prophecy with those symbols. That way, for a person to truly understand the prophecies, one would really have to have a firm grasp on the Old Testament. Keep studying, Junior.

Quote:
What? How you think my God failed is beyond me? Proof contextually that it only means Christians is that in the CONTEXT of last days writing to comfort the CHRISTIANS telling them that God is patient with them, that the day of judgement would not occur until every one who is to believe comes to repentance.

If your view is correct, then the Day of Judgement will never take place because God's equal patience would have to wait for every single person ever born to come to repentance.
Great... here we go again...

Again, I say, how would the passage make any sense in your doctrine for God to wait around for only His people to come to repentance? He can make every one of them repent INSTANTLY according to you! Why the heck does He have to wait thousands of years?? He could just create all the people, send a big lot to hell and keep the others in heaven whom He was planning to save. What is the point?? Does God like to sit around and watch the death and destruction here on earth? Is it some sick obsession of His? Sorry, but you're full of crap. Because of free-will, God has to wait till the time of the end, which He designated, so that His word has time to spread around the earth and so that billions can be born and hear the message and have a chance to accept Him of their own free-will. It is His will that everyone would do so, and He will give time enough so that great multitudes have a chance to hear His message and choose for themselves.

Sorry, but I'm not rehashing this one again. I've bent you over my knee tons of times on this one. Not commenting on it again.

Quote:
As for God failing, it is YOUR view that paints God as a failure.
Anyone who can read can clearly see the syllogism:

If...

A. God would have everyone saved

B. Everyone is not saved

then...

C. God failed at some point in not saving everyone and gets lucky for the one's that decide to take Him up on His offer of salvation.
Again, TOTALLY CRITICAL THINKING FAIL!

In my view, God gave us free-will (just like the Bible says in Genesis 1:26-28 - gee, imagine that)! It is not God's failure, but rather man's failure! You said God failed in my view because He didn't save everyone. But that implies God has the ability to go against their free-will to save them! lol It's like your tiny little mind cannot think outside the realm of your doctrine. You can't even think from a position of someone else's doctrine, because you can't comprehend it. And it makes your arguments, such as the one above, completely illogical! Thanks again for proving my point...

Quote:
or we could say...

A. God wants no one in the entire world (not simply Christians) to perish

B. Some perish

C. God failed
Please, keep it up. You're just further proving you haven't a clue what free-will means in regard to doctrine. Your logic, again, is completely fail.

God fully succeeded in dying for the sins of mankind and reconciling us to Him. His success is complete, 100%, in that single act. Now, it is left to a simple choice for us. That's it. It's on OUR heads now. We succeed or we fail by the choice we make. It's that simple.

In your view, God has the ability to save everyone, and yet chooses not to. Explain exactly how that shows His love and glory! Explain it!

- Brian
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post #33 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-10-2010, 11:00 PM Thread Starter
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Are you serious? Who here has done the research and actually changed their beliefs? It is me that changed my beliefs. I was humble enough to let go of my free will tradition and see that there is truth in something else. Your words here are meaningless because you are the one who is stuck on one position, and it is me that has shown that there is room for growing and changing positions.
LOL Dude, you weren't ever born again. You've told me your experience with coming to God. You said your parents made you go to church but what was being taught wasn't that intriguing to you, but you just blindly accepted it, for the most part. (That's what we call a sundy Christian whom does little to no research and just buys into what the pastor says). Then, you said you were convinced at some point by a Calvinistic no-free-will teaching that made sense to you and that intrigued you and you jumped right on it. That's when you started researching and learning stuff, at age 22. You admitted to being 24 at the time (last year) and now probably 25, I guess, and so your research into God has lasted 2-3 years, and it's all been Calvinistic research (oh, by the way, we call that being duped).

You see, this happened to my parents when I was 7 years old. They had never really researched the Bible really, really well in their lives. And so when a guy came along and put a few key verses together, he convinced them that his version of the truth was correct with a little bit of proof-texting. My father was determined to disprove the guy. My dad was not a scholar, but just went to researching, trying to prove the guy wrong and couldn't do it. And because my father didn't have a good enough grasp of the Bible at that time, he was not able to properly refute. Thus, he assumed the guy was right. That was a stupid move wholely based on my dad's pride in his intelligence. My father pridefully belived in his ability to research the Bible and find the answers he sought IF they were there, and when he could not find them, he assumed his research was completely and those answers were not in the Bible and so he was wrong. Sure, it seems humble, but it's actually pride in intelligence. He bought the false doctrine, because he wasn't well versed enough in understanding the Bible yet.

You were the same, sort of. You were just a kid that didn't know the Bible very well because you weren't much interested in really researching it and looking into the truth, and so your "research" was very light and mostly things the pastor mentioned and you decided to read a bit about. But then little Calvin came along and seemed to have a good argument that made sense to you and you jumped right on it. Now you felt smarter than your parents and the church you came from and this was empowering, because you believed you knew the truth and they didn't. Now you had reason to research, because you had something you could work with. Your experience with God is not a born again experience I've ever heard of. Your experience reeks of coming to religion, not God. Religion played on your pride and reeled you in, which is just exactly what Satan does. He uses religion all the time.

Quote:
Respect? Like when you call me a prideful, cultie idiot? Sorry, your hypocrisy is overwhelming here my friend.
Respect? I show you no respect. I tried that in the past and it got me no where. And once I knew for sure that you were a person that just wanted to spread false doctrine joyfully, having no problem telling people they must not be chosen, I lost all respect for you and decided it was better to destroy you so no one would pay attention to what you said. I never want you to crush someone's hope here by giving them the idea that they're simply "not chosen", and I don't want you painting God as a horrible, tyrannical, psychopath ruler. Excuse me for being extremely pissed off at your defacing my Father. That is why I haven't an ounce of respect for you. You don't deserve it.

Quote:
And how does it not sound like you? You can't answer that, because it clearly goes both ways. I have been the one that once shared the same view as you, and it is me that saw truth in a different perspective. It is me that was convinced from your viewpoint to another. You have shown no sign of changing when it comes to this topic. Sorry buddy, you are clearly speaking of yourself here and not me.
Oh, nice job showing your lack of reasoning skills again. Let's say you start out as Hindu. Then, you get saved by Jesus and you are Christian and you know for certain that Hindu is wrong. You spend a year debating a Hindu. And in that year, you never convert back to Hindu. Does that make you prideful because you won't change to the belief which you clearly know is false? Of course it doesn't! That's what you just accused me of, and you claimed this was proof I was not one whom would change my beliefs. LOL Dude, you're an idiot when it comes to debates and reasoning. You're reasoning impaired. lol

I started out a Sunday Christian in a Missionary Baptist from age 0-7, unsaved. Then my parents got into a borderline cult-esqe church (I say cult only because they believed they were the only ones going to heaven) and was in it from age 7-16. At age 16, I was born again, at which point I went from rock-bottom to cloud-nine in a split second and I felt all the sin and shame and guilt fall off of me instantly and I was free of it all. The world now made sense to me, and there was no more grey areas but black and white. It was a huge revelation that no one taught me, but rather, it just occured in a split second. I knew, shortly after that, that this cult-esqe church was wrong and got us myself and my parents out of it and we switched to a Lutheran church that has a great youth pastor and the pastor wasn't too bad either. I believed one could lose salvation, but after a couple of years and a few very good proofs, I realized the Bible clearly taught once saved always saved. Soon after that I learned that pre-trib futurist belief was wrong, so I switched from that to a post-trib futurist belief due to more research on my part. I believed in evolution and gap theory, and then did some research and changed to believing in a 6,000 year old earth that was created in 6 days. With further research, I found that other beliefs of mine were incorrect, such as tithing money. As I learned more about the Bible, on my own, apart from teachers, I realized the greater picture. Sometimes, teachers would point me in the right direction, but it always took my own research and understanding to come to the conclusion that I was wrong. I would always ask God to please show me truth even if it meant I was wrong. I had no problem with being wrong. I then found my post-trib belief was wrong and switched to Skolfield's view upon months of research. I found that my replacement doctrine was wrong and did away with that.

Dude, I have believed so much stuff that preachers/teachers taught for years, and I have opted to ask God for the answers and then doing my own research, and over time, I got my answers and found much of what I believed before was wrong. This has always been the case with me throughout my 14 years as a born-again Christian.

You, on the other hand, told me you went from what your parents believed to what Calvinists believe, and that was your change. One change, all at once, and that was it. Well, any idiot that doesn't know the Bible well will fall for Calvinist doctrine. Thanks for proving your idiocy. Once you bought their false doctrine, you just learned it and stuck with it and never changed again. Sorry, but that's self-righteousness and pride, man. There's no "change" there.

You pridefully assume you are 100% correct and I am wrong, and you believe that anyone that's humble and seeks truth will come to your beliefs eventually. I've researched your beliefs, and done so heavily. I made the effort. And all I found was that your beliefs have lots of holes in them and are easily refutable. Not once have you said, "I'll look into what you're saying" and then gone and researched it. Instead, you've strictly been contradictory and thrown up your own doctrine in rebuttle and nothing more. Just a little mini-Calvin running around... that's all your are - a dupe.

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Awww, now we have a little prophet who knows about my parents and religious upbringing. Nice try, but your psycho analysis of me couldn't be any further from the truth. (Not that truth means much to you though.)
Oh, really? Then please share what your parent's upbringing was like both away from and in regard to religion. Now that I think about it, though, your description of your parents and religion didn't sound like you butted heads with them, but rather that you just blindly accepted what they believed, like a good little dupe. That doesn't mean that you didn't have a slightly contentious relationship with your father though, or it doesn't mean you simply just have an attitude of wanting to feel as if you're better than them. I'm not saying that's the case. I was just throwing out stuff for the heck of it. I never said I was correct, nor did I even pretend to be correct. You are probably just a prideful person that wants to use knowledge to make yourself feel better and more important than others. That's caused by insecurity, by the way.

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post #34 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-10-2010, 11:03 PM Thread Starter
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Philly, you can skip all the stuff I just said and just answer one simple question. I won't respond to anything else you say until you answer this one question (which isn't exactly question form, but is a question, none-the-less:

Explain how it shows God's glory AND love to choose, against a person's will, to send someone to hell and make them burn forever, even if they were a great human being that helped others much of their life.

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post #35 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-11-2010, 12:00 AM
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Explain how it shows God's glory AND love to choose, against a person's will, to send someone to hell and make them burn forever, even if they were a great human being that helped others much of their life.
1. Can you show me a great human being except for Jesus? Jesus Himself said there is none good but God and elsewhere that our righteousness is as filthy rags in God's eyes.

2. It sounds like you're saying people should be saved because of their good deeds, which is works righteousness. We know that men are saved by faith in Christ, not works of the flesh my friend. This is your error in your question here.

God doesn't choose against people's will to send them to hell, by their will they freely sin and the penalty of that sin is God's judgement, which is eventually hell. You should learn what you're arguing against before you begin arguing, it will help you out tremendously.
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post #36 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-11-2010, 12:12 AM
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Because of free-will, God has to wait till the time of the end, which He designated, so that His word has time to spread around the earth and so that billions can be born and hear the message and have a chance to accept Him of their own free-will. It is His will that everyone would do so, and He will give time enough so that great multitudes have a chance to hear His message and choose for themselves.
What do you make of those that never hear about Jesus, do they still go to heaven?



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In my view, God gave us free-will (just like the Bible says in Genesis 1:26-28 - gee, imagine that)! It is not God's failure, but rather man's failure! You said God failed in my view because He didn't save everyone. But that implies God has the ability to go against their free-will to save them!
It's truly sad to see that you think God is "unable" to do something when the Bible is full of instances where God changes hearts, opens hearts, and puts things in people's minds.

Did God knock Paul off his horse and put scales on Paul's eyes against Paul's free will? lol.

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God fully succeeded in dying for the sins of mankind and reconciling us to Him. His success is complete, 100%, in that single act. Now, it is left to a simple choice for us. That's it. It's on OUR heads now. We succeed or we fail by the choice we make. It's that simple.
You claim He succeeded in reconciling mankind to Himself, and yet all mankind are not reconciled to Him. Even a elementary school kid can understand that statement does not make sense.

Do you know what reconciled means?

That's like saying there is now no more hostility between me and all my coworkers, yet a majority of my coworkers are still mad at me. Makes no sense, like many of your points.

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post #37 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-11-2010, 07:44 AM
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post #38 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-11-2010, 09:36 PM
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post #39 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-11-2010, 11:49 PM
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You're a fool.
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post #40 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-12-2010, 05:00 AM
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You're a fool.
I'm doing this so the statement isn't made that you're the one passing judgment. Your comment comes straight from scripture.

Psalm 14

1 Only fools say in their hearts,
“There is no God.”





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post #41 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-12-2010, 11:39 AM
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I'm doing this so the statement isn't made that you're the one passing judgment. Your comment comes straight from scripture.

Psalm 14

1 Only fools say in their hearts,
“There is no God.”
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post #42 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-12-2010, 12:02 PM
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You're a fool.
....and an attention whore
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post #43 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-12-2010, 03:07 PM
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There are some characters on this board that tell me that if God does exist, he's definitely had a few "What was I thinking?" moments.

I didn't think Phillystang or any of the christians on the board are calvanists. Isn't a calvanist somebody that believe that some people are going to hell, and some are going to heaven no matter what they do?
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post #44 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-12-2010, 03:49 PM
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I didn't think Phillystang or any of the christians on the board are calvanists. Isn't a calvanist somebody that believe that some people are going to hell, and some are going to heaven no matter what they do?
Not exactly, that's a staw-man.

Calvinism holds that God effectively intervenes in the lives of some sinners and has mercy on them (giving them a desire for God and new nature desiring to please God) while leaving other sinners in their sin and God-hating to eventually face His judgment.

Anyone who believes upon Christ will be saved, and those that believe and repent of their sins only do so because God first gave them the desire and ability to do so.



BrianC is mistaken when he says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
you're telling non-believers that, because they do not believe in God, they are not chosen by Him and they never have a chance of being saved if He hasn't chosen them. So what incentive does that give them to seek God? Also, that just down-right pisses a person off. They suddenly say, "What right does God have to circumvent my free-will? If I want to do right and ask forgiveness and be saved, that should be my choice, not His! That's just cruel!" Then they'll turn away from Him completely. But here's the deal... if you are wrong, and there is free-will, then you just turned away a person whom could have been saved, but now has no chance of it due to your false doctrine.
I would never tell anyone they are not "chosen by Him" because we are never told the identity of the elect. Brian's statements here are nothing more than emotional conjecture based upon his misunderstanding and ignorance of my position. We preach the good new of Christ's death, burial, and resurrection for sinners to everyone with the confidence that God will use the preaching of the Gospel to bring about faith in men and women.

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post #45 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-12-2010, 04:08 PM
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There are some characters on this board that tell me that if God does exist, he's definitely had a few "What was I thinking?" moments.

I didn't think Phillystang or any of the christians on the board are calvanists. Isn't a calvanist somebody that believe that some people are going to hell, and some are going to heaven no matter what they do?
Regardless of how it is spun, yes you are right. People are destined before time for hell. Makes for a purpose filled life!!!!


It really is a flawed thought process.

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post #46 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-12-2010, 04:11 PM
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Regardless of how it is spun, yes you are right. People are destined before time for hell. Makes for a purpose filled life!!!!


It really is a flawed thought process.
The same is true of your position unless you are a universalist.
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post #47 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-13-2010, 06:54 AM Thread Starter
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1. Can you show me a great human being except for Jesus? Jesus Himself said there is none good but God and elsewhere that our righteousness is as filthy rags in God's eyes.

2. It sounds like you're saying people should be saved because of their good deeds, which is works righteousness. We know that men are saved by faith in Christ, not works of the flesh my friend. This is your error in your question here.
LOL And you should learn your Bible better.

Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

God requires us to do justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly with Him (some walk with the Lord and don't know it... I'll prove it)

If someone does good, where does that come from? From God. He's doing it through people, whether they're saved or not, because this verse says ALL good gifts come from God:

James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

In other words, when someone knows love and mercy and justice and is humble, they practice those things, because God is working in their heart to use them to help others.

I'll tell you a story... My great uncle is a perfect example of what I just described. All his life, he had a huge heart and lived by exactly the things described in that verse, except that he hadn't accepted Jesus' sacrifice (I don't remember if he didn't believe or just hadn't accepted Him yet, probably due to religion skewing who God really is). Right before he died, he accepted Jesus, and he said he understood that Jesus had been using Him this entire time, all his life, and he could see Jesus' had been very good to him his entir life. What he realized is that he was walking with Jesus all his life and just didn't realize that's what he was doing.

You falsely accuse me of saying we are saved by works, which is another attempt at you to deface me when you know full well I believe salvation is strictly by faith alone, by a choice we make, and that's it.

But as Peter says, "faith without works is dead" and "show me your faith and I will show you my works". In other words, if someone is saved, good works will be something they do naturally, and so we are told to "judge them by their fruits" as to whether someone is truly a Christian or just a false Christian.

God doesn't choose by a person's good works. He chooses by whom will accept Him. It just so happens that many He chooses do good works, because He works through them to do those good works, and sometimes, He works in the person retrospecively, before the person even becomes saved.

Quote:
God doesn't choose against people's will to send them to hell, by their will they freely sin and the penalty of that sin is God's judgement, which is eventually hell. You should learn what you're arguing against before you begin arguing, it will help you out tremendously.
Funny how I consistantly show your doctrine to be contradictory and expose your lack of critical thinking and reading comprehension, yet you claim I need help understanding what we're discussing? lol Nice...

So, let me get this straight... You claim it is man's free-will to go to hell, but in regard to going to heaven, it's God's will and choice, right? So, what you're saying is that there's free-will but there isn't free-will, right? LOL

Dude, you crack me up... Such a huge debate-failure...

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post #48 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-13-2010, 07:17 AM Thread Starter
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What do you make of those that never hear about Jesus, do they still go to heaven?
And this, my friend, is where you show your lack of study.

Look at the Native Americans. Shortly after the flood is when they crossed over from Asia to the Americas. Now, in their history, I'm sure they knew God, because they knew about the Creator. Many Native American tribes worshipped the "Creator", whom they also called the "Great White Spirit". So what if they didn't know His name. They knew who He was and they had a name for Him and they exhibited His qualities in their life, and remember... per the verse that I posted in the last response, ALL good gifts come from God, and thus, it was God working in their hearts to do good. Just because Jesus says everyone will GO THROUGH Him to get to the Father doesn't mean they must know His name to go through Him. They may have known Him, simply not by name, and when they get to Him, yes, they will go through Him to get to the Father. It's a statement of fact that all go through Him.

Also, notice that Jesus says in Luke:

Luke 12:10
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

This gives the Jews (and probably many others) a way out. The Jews can deny Jesus, and yet accept the gift of the Holy Spirit, and it is forgiven them that they denied Jesus according to this verse. Same goes for people that don't know Jesus' name. And why would this be? Because the Holy Spirit is Jesus' spirit. If a person knows one part of God (The Holy Spirit), and God is one and God never changes, then that person knows all of God, just not by name.

The Jews prior to Christ were saved under the old covenant, and yet they didn't know Jesus' name. We know they were saved, because we're told in Matthew 27 that when Jesus died, the saints rose from the dead. These saints are the people from the Old Testament. We read from Job (the first written book of the Bible, written shortly after the flood) that he has a Redeemer in Heaven. We read that Daniel has a Redeemer in heaven. They don't know Jesus by name, necessarily, but they know the Holy Spirit, and they are saved according to the old covenant.

You need to learn your Bible, boy.

Quote:
It's truly sad to see that you think God is "unable" to do something when the Bible is full of instances where God changes hearts, opens hearts, and puts things in people's minds.

Did God knock Paul off his horse and put scales on Paul's eyes against Paul's free will? lol.
Wow, you need to learn to comprehend and critically think. I said that God doesn't go against a person's free-will to save them. GO AGAINST, which means He doesn't literally change their free-will by making a decision for them. You have not concept of what free-will is. Your arguments don't even make sense.

God knocked Paul off his horse and blinded him IN ORDER TO SWAY PAUL'S FREE-WILL TO CHOOSE HIM! That's not taking away free-will! That's persuading. Just as Jonah was persuaded. God gave Jonah choices... die in the whale or go do what He wanted him to do. Jonah, of his own free-will, had chosen death at first, all on his own, because he asked the men to throw him overboard to his death. But God kept him safe in the whale and persuaded him not to die, but rather to do as He asked.

The Bible supports me 100% in this area, because time and time again, what we see in the Bible is God PERSUADING people, not taking control of their will. No where does it say God takes over a person's will. It says God "changes" their heart. Well, that's the same language I would use if I were talking to a friend and I changed their mind about something by persuading them against what they were planning or thinking. I didn't ACTUALLY change their will directly. I simply persuaded them to change their own will. Same with God. He uses events and spiritual pokes and prods to get people to freely choose Him or to harden their hearts against Him, because He already knows if a person will not ever choose Him and thus He needs to use them to accomplish the salvation of others if they will not choose Him. No where does the Bible ever display lack of free-will. No where.

Quote:
You claim He succeeded in reconciling mankind to Himself, and yet all mankind are not reconciled to Him. Even a elementary school kid can understand that statement does not make sense.

Do you know what reconciled means?

That's like saying there is now no more hostility between me and all my coworkers, yet a majority of my coworkers are still mad at me. Makes no sense, like many of your points.
Don't tell me my points make no sense when the problem is your reading comprehension and lack of ability to critically think. lol

Once again, learn your Bible, boy:

Colossians 1:20
and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Yes, that means people too, buddy, because all things on heaven and earth include people... the Father reconciled EVERYTHING to Himself through Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Again, don't tell me my points don't make sense just because you can't comprehend what you read. I'm not the one that keeps looking like the village idiot here...

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post #49 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-13-2010, 07:19 AM Thread Starter
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You're a fool.
Hypocrit...

You should really learn to live by the Bible:

Matthew 5:22
"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ' You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Good job, buddy.

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post #50 of 105 (permalink) Old 05-13-2010, 07:30 AM Thread Starter
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I'm doing this so the statement isn't made that you're the one passing judgment. Your comment comes straight from scripture.

Psalm 14

1 Only fools say in their hearts,
“There is no God.”
1 - He did not say there isn't a God. He pissed on God, which, if we just take the statement he made by the picture, we'd have to believe that he does believe in God, but simply hates Him. However, it is likely he doesn't believe in God. To be honest, if I grew up learning that God is whom the Catholics and Calvinistic religions say He is, I would hate God too, because the God they believe in sounds pretty horrible. I think a lot of people aren't mad at and rejecting God, but rather, mad at the god of many Christian/Catholic denominations, whom is someone completely different than the real God.

2 - It is one thing for God to say that a person is a fool if they believe there is no God. It is something completely different for us, His people, to call people fools when we were told in the New Testament not to call people fools.

3 - We are told many times in the New Testament not to judge the world, but that we should judge other Christians and exhort them if they are behaving unrighteously, which misrepresents Christ. That's why I give Phillystang such a hard time.

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