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post #1 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 02:18 PM Thread Starter
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elohim

elohim (gods) is the plural of eloah (god).

בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃
In the beginning "gods" (elohim not eloah) created the heavens and earth.
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post #2 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 02:29 PM
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Can we get a Jew in here for a ruling?

Give me a dollar.
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post #3 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 02:44 PM Thread Starter
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Who will be the first to rationalize that "gods" means the Trinity?

If this is indeed "gods", then the rest of the Bible must be read in this light.
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post #4 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 05:51 PM
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FSON, I find it really ironic that you can't get past the first chapter, much alone the first verse of the most popular book on the planet, and you are already throwing up Hebrew language (which I know you can't read )to back WHAT exactly?

If I'm reading correctly, your argument is that if you add a 's' to the end of a word, it makes it plural in the English language, BUT not true in Hebrew! Thanks for illustrating that for us that didn't make it past grade school..

-----------

If you would read the rest of the book you MIGHT find out...and by your seconded post, you answered it. I'm going to guess you Google'd and found out, but already decided "NO WAY, THAT CAN'T BE IT!"

Again, reading more than four words MIGHT have helped your argument a bit..

------------

Please, for the love of God, go read a childrens play book or go play with dolls.

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post #5 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 06:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobba Fett View Post

If I'm reading correctly
You're not
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post #6 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-23-2010, 10:45 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bobba Fett View Post
FSON, I find it really ironic that you can't get past the first chapter, much alone the first verse of the most popular book on the planet, and you are already throwing up Hebrew language (which I know you can't read )to back WHAT exactly?

If I'm reading correctly, your argument is that if you add a 's' to the end of a word, it makes it plural in the English language, BUT not true in Hebrew! Thanks for illustrating that for us that didn't make it past grade school..

-----------

If you would read the rest of the book you MIGHT find out...and by your seconded post, you answered it. I'm going to guess you Google'd and found out, but already decided "NO WAY, THAT CAN'T BE IT!"

Again, reading more than four words MIGHT have helped your argument a bit..

------------

Please, for the love of God, go read a childrens play book or go play with dolls.

For your reading pleasure:

Quote:
Originally Posted by FSON View Post
elohim (gods) is the plural of eloah (god).

בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃
In the beginning "gods" (elohim not eloah) created the heavens and earth.
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post #7 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 12:57 AM
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there is a book called The Evolution of God by Robert Wright that goes into a lot of detail about this.

myspace.com/tylerdurdin
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post #8 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 11:26 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tenacious j View Post
there is a book called The Evolution of God by Robert Wright that goes into a lot of detail about this.
I will buy this book.


If the "gods" made heaven and earth, who were they, if not the Trinity? Why didn't the great and singular "god" make them?
If "god" has evolved from many "gods", why?
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post #9 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSON View Post
Who will be the first to rationalize that "gods" means the Trinity?

If this is indeed "gods", then the rest of the Bible must be read in this light.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FSON View Post
I will buy this book.


If the "gods" made heaven and earth, who were they, if not the Trinity? Why didn't the great and singular "god" make them?
If "god" has evolved from many "gods", why?
The Holy Trinity is 1 God in 3 forms, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If you wish to think of God as 3 different beings, then fine. You still have God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

You should ask a Hebrew professor this question. For that matter, look at the Greek texts and see what it says as well.

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post #10 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 04:29 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HOOCBB View Post
The Holy Trinity is 1 God in 3 forms, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If you wish to think of God as 3 different beings, then fine. You still have God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

You should ask a Hebrew professor this question. For that matter, look at the Greek texts and see what it says as well.
Why does every translation except for the Mormons make it the singular instead of the plural.

If we are going to read the Bible literally, we better have the right translation.
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post #11 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-24-2010, 04:39 PM Thread Starter
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If the Hebrew text wanted us to know that the Messiah helped create Heaven and earth, it would have told us.

If we say G#d is the Trinity, why didn't the first sentence say G#d instead of "gods"?

In reference to G#d later in the OT, why not "gods"?
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post #12 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-26-2010, 02:18 PM
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It seems my first post went over many members' head, as many didn't catch the sarcasm in my previous post or the logic.

So, instead of debating, lets all get on the same page and down to some factual answers.

For one, I have been a born-again Christian since June 2005. Since this time, my understanding of the Bible has taken much time. I have gone through many Bibles and books for study. Through my studies, I now carry 1 Bible with me to church and 1 Bible that I carry along with me for light reading.

Before we continue, let me explain to you about these Bibles. The large one I carry to church is divided into two columns on every page. The left column has the King James Version and the right column has the Amplified Version. The KJV carries beautifully written proses and was (and still is) the "international standard" from which most Christians study. The AMP version of the Bible includes multiple English words in the translation, to help reader better understand when translating from Hebrew and Greek. Taken from here, this explains it best:

Quote:
Multiple English word equivalents to each key Hebrew and Greek word clarify and amplify meanings that may otherwise have been concealed by the traditional translation method.
The other Bible I carry is a pocket Bible, written only in KJV, and only the New Testament. Nothing special.

For me, these are the only Bible translations I read and study today. Like yourself, I also run into Greek words that may need further English translation to understand. Also, these translations serve Christians in there faith; no secret "political/religious" reason.

To answer your question, FSON, I had to go find the NIV version of the Bible, as both versions of my Bible say "God", not "Gods." The NIV Bible is the book of text taught not only by the Mormons (it is, but then you also missed the book of Mormon too) but more importantly, the Jehovah Witnesses, and many other religious secs that I do not study under. Most Christans here are non-denominational (from what I have read since I've joined the site.) To me, the NIV translation is a religious text, written for a religious and political reason. Therefore, I choose not to read from that translation.

To my understanding, the word that was transcribed there from Greek is, in English, to be "God" and not the plural form, "Gods."

Your other questions posted here can also be answered, but it would require some type of faith in a marvelous God, which you haven't protested yet in any of your posts, nor will I attempt to answer for that reason. I only wanted to clarify what we are talking about when you posted your question for other members who may not understand the completeness of your question, and to get everyone on the same page.

Others may post there denomination's belief, but I am only speaking for those of us with no religious beliefs, only faith that Jesus is our savior, and that He is the only way into Heaven.

Last edited by Bobba Fett; 03-26-2010 at 02:30 PM.
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post #13 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-26-2010, 03:38 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobba Fett View Post
It seems my first post went over many members' head, as many didn't catch the sarcasm in my previous post or the logic.

So, instead of debating, lets all get on the same page and down to some factual answers.

For one, I have been a born-again Christian since June 2005. Since this time, my understanding of the Bible has taken much time. I have gone through many Bibles and books for study. Through my studies, I now carry 1 Bible with me to church and 1 Bible that I carry along with me for light reading.

Before we continue, let me explain to you about these Bibles. The large one I carry to church is divided into two columns on every page. The left column has the King James Version and the right column has the Amplified Version. The KJV carries beautifully written proses and was (and still is) the "international standard" from which most Christians study. The AMP version of the Bible includes multiple English words in the translation, to help reader better understand when translating from Hebrew and Greek. Taken from here, this explains it best:



The other Bible I carry is a pocket Bible, written only in KJV, and only the New Testament. Nothing special.

For me, these are the only Bible translations I read and study today. Like yourself, I also run into Greek words that may need further English translation to understand. Also, these translations serve Christians in there faith; no secret "political/religious" reason.

To answer your question, FSON, I had to go find the NIV version of the Bible, as both versions of my Bible say "God", not "Gods." The NIV Bible is the book of text taught not only by the Mormons (it is, but then you also missed the book of Mormon too) but more importantly, the Jehovah Witnesses, and many other religious secs that I do not study under. Most Christans here are non-denominational (from what I have read since I've joined the site.) To me, the NIV translation is a religious text, written for a religious and political reason. Therefore, I choose not to read from that translation.

To my understanding, the word that was transcribed there from Greek is, in English, to be "God" and not the plural form, "Gods."

Your other questions posted here can also be answered, but it would require some type of faith in a marvelous God, which you haven't protested yet in any of your posts, nor will I attempt to answer for that reason. I only wanted to clarify what we are talking about when you posted your question for other members who may not understand the completeness of your question, and to get everyone on the same page.

Others may post there denomination's belief, but I am only speaking for those of us with no religious beliefs, only faith that Jesus is our savior, and that He is the only way into Heaven.
I will shorten your answer. I have a Bible that was translated many years ago by a group of what I think was educated and knowledgeable people inspired by the Holy Spirit. I stand by this Bible even though the original text(s) us the word "gods". The translators knew better what the writer's original intent was. The original writer was not inspired by the Holy Spirit because he/she/they used the word "gods".


Any suggestion that there is was more than one "god" goes against the King James Institute of Biblical Translation. I will not stand for this.
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post #14 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-26-2010, 03:51 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by FSON View Post
elohim (gods) is the plural of eloah (god).

בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃
In the beginning "gods" (elohim not eloah) created the heavens and earth.
I forgot two things, eloah is feminine.

and

"Let us make man in our own image,"
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post #15 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-29-2010, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by FSON View Post
I forgot two things, eloah is feminine.

and

"Let us make man in our own image,"
אֱלֹהִ֑ים
This is Hebrew for elohim. You are correct that it is plural for eloah, but like I stated above, it still translates to "God" or "god", not Gods.



Taken from Hebrew Dictionary
Quote:
Plural of 'elowahh; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative...
I have found no reference on your feminine statement about eloah. Although, elohim can also be translated to "goddess."


This passage in Hebrew: בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ׃ it translates אֱלֹהִ֑ים as "God."

Can you please state your reference where you interpreted it differently? I will also ask others who read can Hebrew to completely verify that elohim in this passage בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ is the true definition, but it seems to me that this is confirmed already from here.
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post #16 of 19 (permalink) Old 03-29-2010, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by FSON View Post
I will shorten your answer. I have a Bible that was translated many years ago by a group of what I think was educated and knowledgeable people inspired by the Holy Spirit. I stand by this Bible even though the original text(s) us the word "gods". The translators knew better what the writer's original intent was. The original writer was not inspired by the Holy Spirit because he/she/they used the word "gods".


Any suggestion that there is was more than one "god" goes against the King James Institute of Biblical Translation. I will not stand for this.
Please see above post. Also, please state where you got your interpretations from, as I have yet been able to verify anything you have stated in your first post.
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post #17 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-07-2010, 08:29 AM Thread Starter
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http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vi...watchers18.htm

"To the Hebrews the Elohim were nature divinities from ancient Sumerian times. According to General Albert Pike, the famous Masonic Historian, in Morals and Dogma, the Elohim were the ‘host of heaven’, ascending and descending to pass messages to and from god or the leader (Yahweh.) The host of heaven were of course the stars in the night sky humanized."


There are many other sources.
The mistake many make is to go forward into history, the NT, to interpret the OT.
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post #18 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-07-2010, 08:39 AM
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To say that there is a "definitive" text or that a certain translator "knew" the "original" intent is to overly simplify things. I suggest you all read the book "God's Secretaries". It's one of the only books that describes the process of scholars, hired by King James, sitting in a room and debating how to translate and rework the bible. It's pretty enlightening in that it's clear that they were being pretty irenic (i.e. purposely vague) so as to create a text that both Catholics and Protestants could read and interpret how they choose (and if you look at the historical context in which this process took place, you see how brilliant of a political move that was for James).

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post #19 of 19 (permalink) Old 04-07-2010, 08:41 AM Thread Starter
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To say that there is a "definitive" text or that a certain translator "knew" the "original" intent is to overly simplify things. I suggest you all read the book "God's Secretaries". It's one of the only books that describes the process of scholars, hired by King James, sitting in a room and debating how to translate and rework the bible. It's pretty enlightening in that it's clear that they were being pretty irenic (i.e. purposely vague) so as to create a text that both Catholics and Protestants could read and interpret how they choose (and if you look at the historical context in which this process took place, you see how brilliant of a political move that was for James).
Yay, the Bible used for political leverage.
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