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post #1 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-19-2010, 11:11 AM Thread Starter
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Calling Out Phillystang

I have been PMing Phillystang for quite some time now. We have gone back and forth about doctrine, and more specifically, free-will. Phillystang refuses to answer my scenario no matter how many times I ask him to answer it. Therefore, I have told him I will call him out right here in the forums, and if he does not answer the scenario, he is admitting he is wrong.

Philly believes that God chooses if we're saved or not, and we have no free-will in the matter. I gave the verse in Psalms 41:14-16 which says, "Because he has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him...and I will show him My salvation." Which means God's choosing us is based upon whether we choose Him of our own free-will. He knows we will choose Him ahead of time, and therefore chooses us ahead of time.

The challenge I've given Philly is to show that his view of God makes God a cruel, unloving God. Love is a choice, and if we have not the free-will to choose to love God, it is impossible for us to do so. Love cannot be forced, and yet Philly believed God forces us to love Him by choosing us against our free-will. Without choice, we do not have the capability to love. This is contradictory to God being "love" as He says He is. Which brings me to the challenge.

Here's the scenario I asked him to write:

Since humans were created by God, it means that all humans are God's children, technically. Sure, figuratively, we are called children of the devil if we have yet to choose God, but that is figurative, not literal. We are all God's children. Therefore, here is the scenario.

Write this scenario as if you were given God's duty of choosing who goes to hell and who goes to heaven (which is what you believe God does). Here are the guidelines for the scenario:

You are in a God-like position. List out the 10 most important family members and friends you have. Calvinists such as you (Philly) believe the majority of the world is going to hell. Therefore, pick 70% of the 10 people to go to hell, and 30% to go to heaven. The ones who go to hell will suffere for eternity in horrible pain and they have no choice in the matter. It is solely your choice if they go to hell or not when they die. List the 7 that go to hell and the 3 that go to heaven. After you do this, explain how your doing this shows that you are a loving, compassionate God.

If you do not do this scenario, I will assume you realized you are wrong about God but do not want to expose that here in the forum. If you answer, well... this will get real interesting. Either way, it's a lose-lose situation for you and your doctrines.

- Brian
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post #2 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-19-2010, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC View Post
I have been PMing Phillystang for quite some time now. We have gone back and forth about doctrine, and more specifically, free-will. Phillystang refuses to answer my scenario no matter how many times I ask him to answer it. Therefore, I have told him I will call him out right here in the forums, and if he does not answer the scenario, he is admitting he is wrong.
Your scenario is flawed from the beginning. It is on par with asking someone if they are still beating their wife.

Your scenario clearly does not match the real situation because you either paint man as an innocent creature (though he is described as a slave to sin in the Bible) and you paint God as just being all about love. Though He is about love, God is also about holiness and wrath and judgment. You have taken one attribute of God and overshadowed all the other attribute mentioned in the Bible.

I don't think you have an accurate view of the state of man or of the holiness of God, based upon your scenarios.


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Originally Posted by BrianC View Post
Philly believes that God chooses if we're saved or not, and we have no free-will in the matter. I gave the verse in Psalms 41:14-16 which says, "Because he has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him...and I will show him My salvation." Which means God's choosing us is based upon whether we choose Him of our own free-will. He knows we will choose Him ahead of time, and therefore chooses us ahead of time.
Sorry Brian, there is much more to it than that. Why does one man love God and one man doesn't? God must first sovereignly change the person's heart to love Him.

1 John 4:19
"We love because he first loved us."

Despite your free will tradition, there are 2 crystal clear passages from scriptures that say specifically that it is not because of our "wills" that we are saved.

Romans 9:16
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

John 1:13
children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

By whose doing are we in Christ?
1 Cor. 1:30
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption

Are some appointed for eternal life?
Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

All that the Father gives, come.
John 6:37
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

What about those that don't come? They weren't given.
John 10:15
just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Jesus says He dies for the sheep
John 10:11
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

He says there are some that aren't sheep.
John 10:26
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.

Belief is something given by God
Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him

Repentance is granted by God
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."


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Originally Posted by BrianC View Post
The challenge I've given Philly is to show that his view of God makes God a cruel, unloving God. Love is a choice, and if we have not the free-will to choose to love God, it is impossible for us to do so. Love cannot be forced, and yet Philly believed God forces us to love Him by choosing us against our free-will. Without choice, we do not have the capability to love. This is contradictory to God being "love" as He says He is. Which brings me to the challenge.
Here Brian argues from philosophy and not from the Bible. The reason is that Brain cannot find any biblical support for this understanding of free will and the nature of love. Why is this? Because the Bible makes no mention of free will when it comes to salvation.

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Originally Posted by BrianC View Post
Here's the scenario I asked him to write:

Since humans were created by God, it means that all humans are God's children, technically. Sure, figuratively, we are called children of the devil if we have yet to choose God, but that is figurative, not literal. We are all God's children. Therefore, here is the scenario.

Write this scenario as if you were given God's duty of choosing who goes to hell and who goes to heaven (which is what you believe God does). Here are the guidelines for the scenario:

You are in a God-like position. List out the 10 most important family members and friends you have. Calvinists such as you (Philly) believe the majority of the world is going to hell.
Jesus says few will find the road that leads to life, and many the road to destruction. You can either keep your philosophical view, or go with what Jesus said. I'll stick with Jesus.

Matthew 7:13
13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

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Originally Posted by BrianC View Post
Therefore, pick 70% of the 10 people to go to hell, and 30% to go to heaven. The ones who go to hell will suffere for eternity in horrible pain and they have no choice in the matter. It is solely your choice if they go to hell or not when they die. List the 7 that go to hell and the 3 that go to heaven. After you do this, explain how your doing this shows that you are a loving, compassionate God.
Why does a loving compassionate God create people that He knows will go to hell? Wouldn't they be better off having not been created in the first place?

There is no true option of salvation when from eternity past God knew that they would never accept Him. They cannot suddenly do something that God already knew they would never do.

Your scenario is flawed from the beginning because it is foolish for anyone to put themselves in God's place and be His judge based upon how you think His attributes should be displayed.

Despite your clever scenario meant to trap me, Peter says that some men are appointed to doom.

1 Peter 2:7-9

7This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve,
"THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"

8and,
"A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE";
for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.


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Originally Posted by BrianC View Post
If you do not do this scenario, I will assume you realized you are wrong about God but do not want to expose that here in the forum. If you answer, well... this will get real interesting. Either way, it's a lose-lose situation for you and your doctrines.
lol... only in your scenario'd make-believe world... hah!

Your flawed scenarios do not match the real situation because you either paint man as an innocent creature (though he is described as a slave to sin in the Bible) and you paint God as just being all about love. Though He is about love, God is also about holiness and wrath and judgment.


My scenario for Brian:
Let's say you have a toddler playing near a crowded street. He is there because you placed him near there (creation). As he starts to go into the street, instead of rescuing Him (God interfering, grace) out of love, you decide to let him choose for himself rather to come to you or to continue towards the dangerous traffic (free will). Since toddlers rarely obey (sin nature), he gets hit by oncoming traffic and dies.

Except in our case it is not being hit by a car, it is everlasting torment. Once again, in your view God loves choice more than He loves people.


Why do some people decide to get saved while others don't Brian?

Are they better than the others, or smarter?

Isn't this something that they can now boast in?

"I was smarter than those other heathens that didn't believe in Jesus, that's why I'm in heaven now."



Does God just see things and responds to them, or does He decree them?

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.

Isaiah 14:24
The LORD Almighty has sworn, "Surely, as I have planned, so it will be, and as I have purposed, so it will stand.

Isaiah 14:27
For the LORD Almighty has purposed, and who can thwart him? His hand is stretched out, and who can turn it back?

Isaiah 46:10
I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please.

Isaiah 46:11
From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.

Isaiah 55:11
so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.


I think your view of man and God is skewed, namely that God is fair with everyone or that everyone is on a level playing field.

I know this is not true because God says "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy."

What this means is that it is up to God to have mercy and he doesn't have it upon everyone... it also doesn't depend on man... even though your view says it depends upon man.

Mercy cannot be mercy and grace cannot be grace if it is earned by something I do. Then it is merely my wages... something earned. Grace and mercy are truly grace and mercy when they are undeserved, unearned, and not as a result of something someone does.


Please let me know the logical order of these passages...

Appointment comes first... then belief
Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.

Jesus says that some aren't sheep and that the reason for their unbelief is that they are not sheep... Being a sheep comes first, and then belief.

John 10:26
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep

Jesus died for the sheep
John 10:15
just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.
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post #3 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-19-2010, 12:47 PM
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post #4 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 07:12 AM Thread Starter
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Phillystang is a coward and won't do the scenario

Wow, Philly, I've never seen someone struggle so much to get out of answering a scenario. I've answered your scenario before, and yet you ask it again? While your scenario is really stupid, sure, I'll answer it again as soon as you answer mine.

Here's the deal. My scenario is not flawed. You just made up a lot of things that are not true about my scenario. Here are the facts (as YOU believe them):

1. God loves every one of His children (For God so loved the world, He gave His only begotten son...)

2. God will judge the world in the end.

3. Every person will end up either with God for eternity, or apart from Him in hell for eternity.

4. Because of the passage that the path of destruction is wide and many there are that find it, you believe most people are going to hell.

5. God must choose who goes to heaven and who goes to hell.

(Just because you believe these things doesn't mean I do not believe them. I might believe some of them and I might not believe some of them. And this is NOT about my beliefs. It's about yours)

All of those things have been included in this scenario, and all of these things are parts of your belief system.

You said I paint man as an innocent creature. That is a bold-faced lie. I did no such thing. The people in this scenario are your friends and relatives and they are sinners just like you and me. And I have just expressed that now, so you cannot use that excuse again.

Secondly, you accuse my scenario of painting God as being JUST about love. That is also a lie! I did no such thing. God is judging these people and sending most of them to hell. That is about judgment and wrath! They will suffer for eternity totally against their free-will! There is no love in that when God is the one choosing. That's why I asked you to explain HOW God is merciful and loving in doing this.

I have just proven that the scenario is not flawed in any way, shape or form. On top of that, there WILL be a judgment day, and by your religious beliefs, you know how it will go down, and so all you would have to do to answer the scenario is say, "Well, I think it will happen more like this, so I'll write the scenario from this direction." But you don't do that, Philly. You just weasle your way out of it, because you know you're screwed.

Now, stop being a coward and answer the scenario!

- Brian
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post #5 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 07:13 AM Thread Starter
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And don't you dare say it's flawed without telling me exactly which parts are flawed, and then fixing them to meet your beliefs about how judgment will happen.

- Brian
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post #6 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 08:56 AM
lol, this place sucks now
 
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How are the Asthma Demons doing these days?
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post #7 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 09:26 AM Thread Starter
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How are the Asthma Demons doing these days?
No idea. Works with multiples. No idea if it works on non-multiples.

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post #8 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 10:59 AM
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Good grief, Brian C is back...I thought you were leaving this site?
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post #9 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 11:02 AM Thread Starter
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Good grief, Brian C is back...I thought you were leaving this site?
Just here long enough to get PhillyStang to answer the scenario.

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post #10 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Phillystang View Post


My scenario for Brian:
Let's say you have a toddler playing near a crowded street. He is there because you placed him near there (creation). As he starts to go into the street, instead of rescuing Him (God interfering, grace) out of love, you decide to let him choose for himself rather to come to you or to continue towards the dangerous traffic (free will). Since toddlers rarely obey (sin nature), he gets hit by oncoming traffic and dies.
This really isn't applicable as the toddler has no knowledge of danger. As adults, we have some sense of finality. We KNOW that we will die someday and that we either can choose to believe in something, or believe in nothing.

That is an apples/oranges scenario there.

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post #11 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 12:12 PM
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And don't you dare say it's flawed without telling me exactly which parts are flawed, and then fixing them to meet your beliefs about how judgment will happen.
Your scenario proves nothing Brian. I cannot believe you are being so immature about this, but this has been your tendency on these boards.

You cannot argue your points from the Scriptures so you turn to make believe scenarios to argue them. Sorry, that doesn't work buddy.

You are asking me to go beyond Scripture in your scenario. Sorry, I won't do that...

-No where are we told why God chooses some to save and some to leave to themselves. We are not told why, but we are told that He does this and the reason is not because of something good in man. It's because of His mercy and grace.

-No where are we told to put ourselves into God's shoes in order to understand what is true based upon how we would act in a given situation. That's not how theology is done. We look at what the Word says, not at what we would do in a given situation if we were God.

You have proven that you have emotion-based arguments and nothing else. You will not handle any of the Scriptures I provided because they prove you wrong. Period!

You will not answer my scenario on why God would create people whom He knows will never believe in Jesus, and yet in your eyes, this still somehow fits into an all loving, compassionate view of God. Can you explain that? Why did He create them in the first place?
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post #12 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 12:16 PM
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This really isn't applicable as the toddler has no knowledge of danger. As adults, we have some sense of finality. We KNOW that we will die someday and that we either can choose to believe in something, or believe in nothing.

That is an apples/oranges scenario there.
Are you saying that people have a complete knowledge of the dangers of sin before they commit their first sin?
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post #13 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 12:53 PM
Rhabdomyolysis anyone?
 
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Are you saying that people have a complete knowledge of the dangers of sin before they commit their first sin?
No,

They have the knowledge when presented with the gospel if not long before. The law shines light on the sin, and the sacrifice takes it away.

They have knowledge, and choice.



The toddler in your example is playing with no knowledge of the on coming vehicle.

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post #14 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 01:16 PM
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No,

They have the knowledge when presented with the gospel if not long before. The law shines light on the sin, and the sacrifice takes it away.

They have knowledge, and choice.



The toddler in your example is playing with no knowledge of the on coming vehicle.
I'm not talking about the Gospel, I'm talking about sin.
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post #15 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 01:42 PM
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No,

They have the knowledge when presented with the gospel if not long before. The law shines light on the sin, and the sacrifice takes it away.

They have knowledge, and choice.



The toddler in your example is playing with no knowledge of the on coming vehicle.
i think he is refering to the toddler dissobeying the beckoning of "you" and choosing to venture into the street as sin

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post #16 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 03:00 PM
Rhabdomyolysis anyone?
 
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I'm not talking about the Gospel, I'm talking about sin.
lol.....ok.... as was I.

discernment

Your example is directly related to "knowing" and the toddler does not know any way you slice it, and a man does know.

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post #17 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 03:13 PM
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lol.....ok.... as was I.

discernment

Your example is directly related to "knowing" and the toddler does not know any way you slice it, and a man does know.
Knowing does not equal change of direction.

You can tell a toddler the dangers just as well, they will still do according to their disobedient and curious nature.

Do you rely on just a verbal warning or the danger or do you get up, grab the child, and rescue them from danger?

In the same way, many hear of the danger of their predicament, yet they still act according to their (sin) nature.

Some disregard this danger, even denying it, while for others God intervenes and they can see their danger and they turn to God. That's what Christians call grace.
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post #18 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 06:05 PM Thread Starter
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Knowing does not equal change of direction.

You can tell a toddler the dangers just as well, they will still do according to their disobedient and curious nature.

Do you rely on just a verbal warning or the danger or do you get up, grab the child, and rescue them from danger?

In the same way, many hear of the danger of their predicament, yet they still act according to their (sin) nature.

Some disregard this danger, even denying it, while for others God intervenes and they can see their danger and they turn to God. That's what Christians call grace.
Again, the toddler scenario is not accurate. Knowing is everything. A toddler does not have a choice yet. The toddler is literally subject to his lack of intelligence and not even knowing there is a car coming. However, humans know about hell. Humans know the car is there, and they can choose. Some are so scared, they don't run into the street. They ask how they can be saved.

Your scenario is absurd.

You said the parent would grab the child so they're not hit by the car, right? Well, why doesn't the parent grab every child so they don't get hit by the cars then? If I'm in your scenario and I'm the parent, that's what I'd do if I have full control over the child's free-will. Your scenario simply doesn't work. It's a straw-man argument to make you appear correct, but to anyone with half a brain, it's an absurd scenario.

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post #19 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 06:25 PM Thread Starter
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As for your question: why did God create a world knowing many people will go to hell, and how is that loving?

I have answered this for you before, and I'll do so again, because I'm not a coward like you are.

Free-will is required for love to be a possibility. Love cannot be forced, period. For one to love, they must have the free-will to choose. Without the free-will to choose God, we are robots and incapable of love.

So, God created us with free-will, knowing that some of us would not choose Him. He knew that He would need to persuade us as much as possible, but knew that not everyone would choose Him. But it is more loving to allow us to choose on our own rather than to force some to be with us for eternity and force even more into hell. That is absolute tyrrany. It is what a dictator like Stalin does. In fact, your belief of who God is is much like Stalin. For the "greater good", some people need to die, and the dictator chooses who dies, isn't that right?

So, since God wants our sincere love, He needed to give us free-will to choose or reject Him. So, in Genesis 1:26-28, He gives us free-will by giving us dominion/sovereignty over the entire world and everything on it (including us and our souls, obviously). In other words, He cannot affect our free-will by His own orders. Otherwise, He is a sinner, completely going against what He commanded.

Now that we have free-will, He manipulates everything He can to get every one of us to accept Him. And those He knows will accept Him, He chooses them ahead of time. It's very simple.

To prove this, He says, "for those He FOREKNEW, He PREDESTINED" (meaning He knew they would choose Him ahead of time, and so He chose them ahead of time to show His omniscience). He proves this also by Psalm 90:14-16:


14 “BECAUSE he has set his love upon Me, THEREFORE I will deliver him;
I will set him on high, because he has known My name...
15 ...I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life I will satisfy him,
And show him My salvation.”

That's a cause and effect. The cause is someone chose to love God of their own free-will. The effect is that God will deliver them. God calls, yes, but it is our choice whether to accept the call or not. God says the reason many do not hear the car is because they have hardened their hearts. Not He hardened their hearts. He says THEY hardned their hearts of their own free-will. When He says He raised Pharoah for His purpose, He says He hardened Pharoah's heart. Well, of course He did. He manipulated all kinds of things in Pharoah's life and He then reigned down all kinds of plagues on his nation and killed his first born! Obviously, those events all hardened Pharoah's heart. NEVER does it say God directly hardened Pharoah's heart against Pharoah's free-will. You must assume that all on your own because of your bad doctrinal beliefs.

Now, you say the word free-will is no where in the Bible, but that's not true. Not only is the word there in the Law because of the "free-will offering", but it is also displayed ALL throughout scripture. NEVER ONCE does God force anyone to do anything in scripture. Instead, God persuades everyone of what He wants them to do. Jonah is the perfect example of this. If God could control Jonah's free-will, God would've forced Jonah to go to Ninevah. And yet God did not. Instead, God persuaded Jonah by putting him in the belly of a whale till Jonah gave in and agreed to do what God wanted. I don't know what world you live in, but in the real world, that's called persuasion, not taking over someone's free-will.

You cannot find a single place in the entire Bible where God takes over someone's free-will, making them do something against it. And yet you constantly find God asking and persuading people to do His will. Obviously, I have a MUCH stronger case in scripture than you could ever begin to have with your beliefs. You claimed I never back-up my beliefs with scripture, and yet I gave you tons of scripture as we discussed this. You, my friend, are a liar. You've lied quite a few times in your above replies, which I have exposed. Be a man! Answer the scenario! Who cares if you think it's flawed?? Just answer it!

I answered your questions. Now answer mine!

Oh, and to make sure there's no confusion, God made us the only way He could for us to have the capacity to love, and that's with free-will. There's nothing unmerciful about that, because we can choose where we go: heaven or hell. It is OUR choice. He puts out the call, but WE choose. He says MANY are called, but FEW are chosen, meaning that He calls everyone, but only some choose Him and so He only chooses those. What kind of idiot would God be if He called tons of people, but only chose to save some that He called?? Your belief system makes the Bible contradict itself specifically in that verse. And it contradicts the free-will constantly displayed all over the Bible. Our blood is on our own hands due to free-will. God had sacrificed everything, done all the work, and now all we do is choose to love Him or not. It's THAT simple, and that's OUR free-will to do. Otherwise, there is absolutely no meaning to life. If God were going to choose for us, He woud've just created us and then sent a bunch to hell and kept a bunch in heaven. No meaning to life whatsoever except for God's sick entertainment.

Also, consider that in in the end, we're not going to heaven alone. He says He will make the heaven AND earth new again. Not just heaven. Therefore, we will be able to come and go to both places. That may be off-topic, though.

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post #20 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 06:30 PM
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Again, the toddler scenario is not accurate. Knowing is everything. A toddler does not have a choice yet. The toddler is literally subject to his lack of intelligence and not even knowing there is a car coming. However, humans know about hell. Humans know the car is there, and they can choose. Some are so scared, they don't run into the street. They ask how they can be saved.
The toddler absolutely has a choice. He will walk where he desires, just like men walk and behave as they desire.

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You said the parent would grab the child so they're not hit by the car, right? Well, why doesn't the parent grab every child so they don't get hit by the cars then?
You're taking the illustration beyond the original point.

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If I'm in your scenario and I'm the parent, that's what I'd do if I have full control over the child's free-will. Your scenario simply doesn't work. It's a straw-man argument to make you appear correct, but to anyone with half a brain, it's an absurd scenario.
It's only absurd when you stretch it beyond its original intention. Since you could not grasp the original meaning, you started creating side stories. You've created a red herring because you could not deal with the fact that the parent must interpose his will on the child if the child is to be saved.
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post #21 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 07:24 PM
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As for your question: why did God create a world knowing many people will go to hell, and how is that loving?

I have answered this for you before, and I'll do so again, because I'm not a coward like you are.
Your "Christian" love is overflowing here Brian. Your question warrants no answer because it is irrational. That is like me asking you to be in a God-like position and then asking you to decide which of your family members will get cancer, which will die in a car wreck, or which will have children with major disablities... while upholding the view of a loving, compassionate God. Those are all in God's control, hopefully you agree with that, but are you going to say you can make that choice?


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Free-will is required for love to be a possibility. Love cannot be forced, period. For one to love, they must have the free-will to choose. Without the free-will to choose God, we are robots and incapable of love.
Then answer my scenario. Is it loving for the parent to step in against the child's will to run in the street, or is it more loving to let the child choose of its free will if it wants to run into traffic?


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So, God created us with free-will, knowing that some of us would not choose Him. He knew that He would need to persuade us as much as possible, but knew that not everyone would choose Him. But it is more loving to allow us to choose on our own rather than to force some to be with us for eternity and force even more into hell. That is absolute tyrrany. It is what a dictator like Stalin does. In fact, your belief of who God is is much like Stalin. For the "greater good", some people need to die, and the dictator chooses who dies, isn't that right?
Why didn't God just create those He knew He would be able to persuade then? Therefore my question stands unanswered- Why did He create those for whom He knew He couldn't persuade???


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So, since God wants our sincere love, He needed to give us free-will to choose or reject Him. So, in Genesis 1:26-28, He gives us free-will by giving us dominion/sovereignty over the entire world and everything on it (including us and our souls, obviously). In other words, He cannot affect our free-will by His own orders. Otherwise, He is a sinner, completely going against what He commanded.
This is complete unbiblical hogwash. Where is free will in that passage? It's not. Where do we have free will over our souls? That is in God's hands. He can effect our will if He wants.

"the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and to put it in writing" 2 Chronicles 36:22

"I will make their hearts so fearful in the lands of their enemies that the sound of a windblown leaf will put them to flight." Leviticus 26:36

"For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled." Revelation 17:17


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Now that we have free-will, He manipulates everything He can to get every one of us to accept Him. And those He knows will accept Him, He chooses them ahead of time. It's very simple.

To prove this, He says, "for those He FOREKNEW, He PREDESTINED" (meaning He knew they would choose Him ahead of time, and so He chose them ahead of time to show His omniscience).
So now you are arguing that manipulation is love! Hah! You are confused my friend. True love = manipulation. I love it, this is cracking me up.

You are clearly adding to what the text says Brian. It doesn't say that God foreknew their actions, it says He foreknew them. That is an intimate picture, the way that Adam "knew" Eve.


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He proves this also by Psalm 90:14-16:


14 “BECAUSE he has set his love upon Me, THEREFORE I will deliver him;
I will set him on high, because he has known My name...
15 ...I will deliver him and honor him.
16 With long life I will satisfy him,
And show him My salvation.”

That's a cause and effect. The cause is someone chose to love God of their own free-will. The effect is that God will deliver them. God calls, yes, but it is our choice whether to accept the call or not. God says the reason many do not hear the car is because they have hardened their hearts. Not He hardened their hearts. He says THEY hardned their hearts of their own free-will. When He says He raised Pharoah for His purpose, He says He hardened Pharoah's heart. Well, of course He did. He manipulated all kinds of things in Pharoah's life and He then reigned down all kinds of plagues on his nation and killed his first born! Obviously, those events all hardened Pharoah's heart. NEVER does it say God directly hardened Pharoah's heart against Pharoah's free-will. You must assume that all on your own because of your bad doctrinal beliefs.
Your cannot answer why some love God and why some don't. God must first work in someone's heart for them to love Him.

Once again you keep bringing up free-will. Of course it doesn't it say God directly hardened Pharoah's heart against Pharoah's free-will. Why? Because free will isn't in the Bible.

Why doesn't Pharaoh let the people go? Because God declared before it all began that He would harden Phraoh's heart. Cause and Effect!

Exodus 4:21
The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.



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Now, you say the word free-will is no where in the Bible, but that's not true. Not only is the word there in the Law because of the "free-will offering", but it is also displayed ALL throughout scripture. NEVER ONCE does God force anyone to do anything in scripture. Instead, God persuades everyone of what He wants them to do. Jonah is the perfect example of this. If God could control Jonah's free-will, God would've forced Jonah to go to Ninevah. And yet God did not. Instead, God persuaded Jonah by putting him in the belly of a whale till Jonah gave in and agreed to do what God wanted. I don't know what world you live in, but in the real world, that's called persuasion, not taking over someone's free-will.
You don't understand do you. Why does God show up so strong in Jonah's situation and not everyone else in the world? God's ways of making sure His will is done is not always the same. It is not always "by force" as you try to portray it. How come there is no situation in the Bible where God wanted to do something and yet fails? Because His perfect will is always done.

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You cannot find a single place in the entire Bible where God takes over someone's free-will, making them do something against it. And yet you constantly find God asking and persuading people to do His will. Obviously, I have a MUCH stronger case in scripture than you could ever begin to have with your beliefs.
You are the one who started all this Brian, with all your pm's and your callout post. I have proven you wrong time and again with Scripture, and yet you continue to bring up made up scenarios and misusing Scripture. Very sad.


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You claimed I never back-up my beliefs with scripture, and yet I gave you tons of scripture as we discussed this. You, my friend, are a liar. You've lied quite a few times in your above replies, which I have exposed. Be a man! Answer the scenario! Who cares if you think it's flawed?? Just answer it!

I answered your questions. Now answer mine!
I'm a liar? Becuase the majority of your argumentation is based upon emotional scenarios and on terms never mentioned in the Bible in the context of salvation? Please. Your use of Scripture is very surface level at the least... getting free will out of Genesis 1. Show me any Christian in history that has used Genesis 1 to defend the notion of free will.

Your most cherished doctrine of "free will" is not taught in the entire Bible, very dangerous if you ask me.


You didn't answer my question Brian. Why did God create people for whom He knew He would not be able to persuade?


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Oh, and to make sure there's no confusion, God made us the only way He could for us to have the capacity to love, and that's with free-will.
More philosophy. Where in the Scriptures does is say that "God made us the only way He could for us to have the capacity to love, and that's with free-will". It doesn't! Yet that is your major argument. Incredible.


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There's nothing unmerciful about that, because we can choose where we go: heaven or hell. It is OUR choice.
Someone that God knows will not choose Him cannot make the choice for heaven Brian, and yet God still creates them.


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He puts out the call, but WE choose. He says MANY are called, but FEW are chosen, meaning that He calls everyone, but only some choose Him and so He only chooses those.
Where does it say those that choose God, God then in turn chooses them? It doesn't. It says the opposite, that God chooses us before the foundation of the world.


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What kind of idiot would God be if He called tons of people, but only chose to save some that He called?? Your belief system makes the Bible contradict itself specifically in that verse.
It contradicts your wild interpretation of the verse, that's for sure.

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And it contradicts the free-will constantly displayed all over the Bible. Our blood is on our own hands due to free-will. God had sacrificed everything, done all the work, and now all we do is choose to love Him or not. It's THAT simple, and that's OUR free-will to do. Otherwise, there is absolutely no meaning to life. If God were going to choose for us, He woud've just created us and then sent a bunch to hell and kept a bunch in heaven. No meaning to life whatsoever except for God's sick entertainment.
Once again,
Why did God create people for whom He knew He would not be able to persuade?
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post #22 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 08:38 PM Thread Starter
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The toddler absolutely has a choice. He will walk where he desires, just like men walk and behave as they desire.


You're taking the illustration beyond the original point.



It's only absurd when you stretch it beyond its original intention. Since you could not grasp the original meaning, you started creating side stories. You've created a red herring because you could not deal with the fact that the parent must interpose his will on the child if the child is to be saved.
Try to weasle your way out of it any way you like. Your scenario doesn't make sense. The child has no intelligence, and so while the child has free-will, he has no knowledge of right or wrong, but humans do. That, alone, invalidates your scenario. Another person here has agreed with me on that, so I'm not the only one. You're the one that refuses to see the obvious truth here, because then you'd be proving your scenario is no good. Come up with a new scenario that's valid.

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post #23 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 08:46 PM Thread Starter
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Your "Christian" love is overflowing here Brian. Your question warrants no answer because it is irrational. That is like me asking you to be in a God-like position and then asking you to decide which of your family members will get cancer, which will die in a car wreck, or which will have children with major disablities... while upholding the view of a loving, compassionate God. Those are all in God's control, hopefully you agree with that, but are you going to say you can make that choice?
Dude, do you ever actually READ the Bible? In Deu 28, it says that if we obey God's laws, we will be blessed with all kinds of blessings, but if we disobey God's laws, we will be cursed and then it spends MANY pages telling all the curses that will come upon us. In fact, it's probably the longest single chapter in the entire Bible. And one of the curses is every disease and sickness.

When Adam and Eve had not sinned, they were not going to die. But once they CHOSE to sin, sin came in and caused degradation and eventually death. We are told in the New Testament that sin brought death. Also, the Jews show they knew that sinning caused sickness when they asked Jesus if the blind man sinned to cause his blindness.

If you think God just throws sickness and disease on people all willy-nilly, then you have nothing to back it up with. God's not the one that does that anyway. Satan does, and only through sin. Satan's the one that took Job's health, not God.

Maybe you should learn a thing or two about the Bible before you go making claims like you just made...

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post #24 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 09:54 PM Thread Starter
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Then answer my scenario. Is it loving for the parent to step in against the child's will to run in the street, or is it more loving to let the child choose of its free will if it wants to run into traffic?
If we change this to a child that's say, 14 years old, and knows the street is dangerous and the parent tells the child not to go in the street, then I can answer that scenario because that's more realistic. A human KNOWS what sin is and KNOWS they are not supposed to do it. It is their CHOICE to do it or not to do it.

And your question then breaks down when we get into the parent saving the child from the street, because it infringes on the child's free-will, something God cannot do.

But if the child is 14 and big enough to resit the parent's help to get them out of the street, then the child can resit if he/she wants, or he/she can let the parent help them and not get hit by the car. It's their choice.

That's the only viable way the scenario works.

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post #25 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 09:59 PM Thread Starter
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Why didn't God just create those He knew He would be able to persuade then? Therefore my question stands unanswered- Why did He create those for whom He knew He couldn't persuade???
You really don't get this whole "free-will" concept, do ya'? If He creates only people whom He can persuade, that means He's placed something inside of the people that MAKES them persuadable by Him everytime, and that would render our free-will useless, because by that mechanism, He could control us against our free-will. Hense the reason He was unable to create only people He could persuade...

If I were to create a robot and give it artificial intelligence, but place an override command inside which would, at any time, allow me to say that command and then the robot would obey my every command, that would be the equivalent of what you just described. That robot is still lacking free-will because of that one single override command I've put in him. Make sense?

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post #26 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 10:10 PM
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Dude, do you ever actually READ the Bible? In Deu 28, it says that if we obey God's laws, we will be blessed with all kinds of blessings, but if we disobey God's laws, we will be cursed and then it spends MANY pages telling all the curses that will come upon us. In fact, it's probably the longest single chapter in the entire Bible. And one of the curses is every disease and sickness.
So if people obey God's rules, they won't ever get sick or bad things happen to them? What did Job do that brought upon so much pain to him?

Job 1:1
In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

So Job was blameless and upright, feared God and shunned evil... and yet all that stuff happened to him. Your points are easily refuted with simple Bible Brian.

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When Adam and Eve had not sinned, they were not going to die. But once they CHOSE to sin, sin came in and caused degradation and eventually death. We are told in the New Testament that sin brought death. Also, the Jews show they knew that sinning caused sickness when they asked Jesus if the blind man sinned to cause his blindness.

If you think God just throws sickness and disease on people all willy-nilly, then you have nothing to back it up with. God's not the one that does that anyway. Satan does, and only through sin. Satan's the one that took Job's health, not God.

Maybe you should learn a thing or two about the Bible before you go making claims like you just made...
Quick quiz Brian: Who did Satan have to go to for permission to inflict Job?
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post #27 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 10:21 PM
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You really don't get this whole "free-will" concept, do ya'? If He creates only people whom He can persuade, that means He's placed something inside of the people that MAKES them persuadable by Him everytime,
So the people that He can persuade now (in real life) are only persuaded because "He's placed something inside of the people that MAKES them persuadable by Him"

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and that would render our free-will useless, because by that mechanism, He could control us against our free-will.
No. He would only need to create those whom He foresaw would believe and not create those whom He foresaw would not believe. The believing would still be believing because of said "free will."

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Hense the reason He was unable to create only people He could persuade...
Okay

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If I were to create a robot and give it artificial intelligence, but place an override command inside which would, at any time, allow me to say that command and then the robot would obey my every command, that would be the equivalent of what you just described. That robot is still lacking free-will because of that one single override command I've put in him. Make sense?
Kind of like in Ezekiel 36, where God says "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances" and also He says "On the day that I cleanse you from all your iniquities, I will cause the cities to be inhabited, and the waste places will be rebuilt."

Once again, the Bible wins over human philosophy.
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post #28 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 10:35 PM Thread Starter
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This is complete unbiblical hogwash. Where is free will in that passage? It's not. Where do we have free will over our souls? That is in God's hands. He can effect our will if He wants.
Free-will is in that passage, plane as day! It says God gave us DOMINION over everything on the earth. That means ourselves. Dominion is sovereignty. Look it up in an ancient Hebrew expository. That word in that passage means sovereingty, even from God Himself, which is free-will. Again, do some research and you'd know these things!

And if He gave us rule over ALL things on the earth and WE are on the earth, then that means we have sovereignty over ALL of us, all three parts: spirit, soul and body (1 Thess 5:23). Therefore, you're wrong. He can persuade us, sure, but He cannot change our free-will.

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"the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and to put it in writing" 2 Chronicles 36:22
The Lord MOVED the heart of Cyrus. MOVED means persuaded. It does not say, "God changed Cyrus' heart against his free-will." It says "moved". When a speaker "moves" a crowd, it means he persuades them. Couldn't you come up with a better passage than this?

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"I will make their hearts so fearful in the lands of their enemies that the sound of a windblown leaf will put them to flight." Leviticus 26:36
Again, this is God saying He'll DO something which will cause them all to be fearful. Meaning, He will scare the living daylights out of them, and they will naturally be choosing to fear on their own. He's not saying He's going to force fear on them against their will. Really, dude? This is all you got?

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"For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled." Revelation 17:17
This goes hand-in-hand with the verse that says God gives them over to a depraved mind. It's the same thing. God's just handing them over to the beast, to Satan, so they can make themselves subject to him. They do that of their own free-will.

Really, dude... You can do better than this, right??

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So now you are arguing that manipulation is love! Hah! You are confused my friend. True love = manipulation. I love it, this is cracking me up.
Manipulation? Nice twist. Manipulation is given a bad wrap because of the way we use it negatively. But persuasion is exactly the same thing, and yet there's nothing wrong with attempting to persuade someone, especially if you're trying to persuade them to do the right thing. Thus, God persuades people to do what is right, and there is much love in that, because He's trying to keep them from choosing hell. You're the only one cracking anyone up here with your complete ignorance of word definitions, man...

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You are clearly adding to what the text says Brian. It doesn't say that God foreknew their actions, it says He foreknew them. That is an intimate picture, the way that Adam "knew" Eve.
LOL!!!! OMG, are you serious?? When it says Adam KNEW Eve, it means that had sex, dude. Did you not know that?? Everyone knows that, even non-Bible reading people! So, what, are you saying God is saying He had sex with us ahead of time?? LOL

No, it says for those He foreknew, He predestined. This means that those He knew would accept Him in the future, He chose them ahead of time. There is absolutely no other solution as to what that passage means that causes it to make any sense whatsoever. It says He foreknew them. What did He foreknow about them? He didn't just "know" them in advance. That's just stupid. He foreknows EVERYONE in advance. This means more than just "knowing" someone. It means He foreknew something about them... and since He's choosing them for salvation, it means He knew they would choose Him. Anything else makes no sense. He was definitely NOT having sex with them ahead of time. LOL Nice try, there, though. Thanks for the laugh. lol

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Your cannot answer why some love God and why some don't. God must first work in someone's heart for them to love Him.
You are correct in saying that God must work in their heart before they can love Him. But it doesn't mean He's forcing them to love, especially since love cannot be forced and MUST be chosen. You really don't get that whole concept, do you? Let your parents arrange a marriage with a girl you don't like, and you'll understand the concept REAL quick.

God only persuades the heart, persuades the person, "moves" them. The person still must choose for themself, though. There's no infringement upon free-will in that scenario.

Quote:
Once again you keep bringing up free-will. Of course it doesn't it say God directly hardened Pharoah's heart against Pharoah's free-will. Why? Because free will isn't in the Bible.
Free-will is ALL OVER the Bible. Just because it doesn't use the words free-will doesn't mean it's not in there. lol There is the "free-will offering" in the law, in those exact words. So that word IS in the Bible. But one only needs to read the first chapter to see where God gives us free-will in Genesis 1:26-28. I explained that above. And when we see God asking people to do things and having to persuade them to do those things, we again see free-will at play. Free-will is constant throughout the Bible. You simply choose to not see it. NO WHERE, though, can you find a place where God forces someone to do something against their free-will by, let's say, possessing them and doing something using their body. LOL You'll never find an example of that anywhere in the Bible, because it's not there. God taking away our free-will is no where in scripture. Get over it.

Quote:
Why doesn't Pharaoh let the people go? Because God declared before it all began that He would harden Phraoh's heart. Cause and Effect!
He did things which caused Pharoah to harden his heart toward God! That's how God made Pharoah harden his heart. God DID things to Pharoah he didn't like, and Pharoah hardened his heart toward God. You have to be purposely avoiding that fact not to see it. Again, you have no case here whatsoever.

Quote:
Exodus 4:21
The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
See? God tells Moses to perform "all the wonders" He has given him the power to do. Moses doing those things before Pharoah in God's power is what hardened Pharoah's heart. Why? Because if a Muslim comes up to you and does a bunch of stuff in Allah's power, showing that Allah is more powerful than Christ, you would be prideful and harden your heart against him just like Pharoah did to Moses. That's what a person does when they're prideful, and a Pharoah, ruling a kingdom, is extremely prideful. Come on, man... you can do better than this!

Quote:
You don't understand do you. Why does God show up so strong in Jonah's situation and not everyone else in the world? God's ways of making sure His will is done is not always the same. It is not always "by force" as you try to portray it. How come there is no situation in the Bible where God wanted to do something and yet fails? Because His perfect will is always done.
God never fails because He always has picked exactly the right person in advance for each job, and He persuades them perfectly, and He knows the future, so He knows exactly who will do what He wants them to do. Really? Is this all you can come up with?? Dude... don't ever become a lawyer, because you come up with some really bad arguments...

Quote:
You are the one who started all this Brian, with all your pm's and your callout post. I have proven you wrong time and again with Scripture, and yet you continue to bring up made up scenarios and misusing Scripture. Very sad.
Oh really? You've proven me wrong over and over again? And I've misused scripture? Ask the other people in this thread if you've clearly disproven me and if I've misused scripture. I guarantee they'll side with me and say you're the one misusing scripture and not proving your case.

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I'm a liar? Becuase the majority of your argumentation is based upon emotional scenarios and on terms never mentioned in the Bible in the context of salvation? Please. Your use of Scripture is very surface level at the least... getting free will out of Genesis 1. Show me any Christian in history that has used Genesis 1 to defend the notion of free will.
I love how you need some Christian in history to use an argument before it makes the argument valid. Ask anyone reading this thread if Genesis 1:26-28 is God giving us free-will. They'll tell you it is obviously doing that. And the Anabaptists, historically, use Genesis 1:26-28 to show free-will, which is why the Baptists and Mennonites today still use Genesis 1:26-28 to prove free-will. My knowledge of scripture is far more indepth than yours. You can't even understand that Genesis 1:26-28 is speaking of free-will. How dense do you have to be? Anyone can see that unless they're avoiding it due to screwed up doctrines. Nice work being a dupe. lol

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Your most cherished doctrine of "free will" is not taught in the entire Bible, very dangerous if you ask me.
Gen 1:26-28... You and your Calvinist buddies are the only ones that don't see it... everyone else does...

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You didn't answer my question Brian. Why did God create people for whom He knew He would not be able to persuade?
Answered it above...

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More philosophy. Where in the Scriptures does is say that "God made us the only way He could for us to have the capacity to love, and that's with free-will". It doesn't! Yet that is your major argument. Incredible.
It doesn't NEED to say that! That is common sense! It's a necessity of love! One cannot create us any other way and us have the capacity to love.

Quote:
Someone that God knows will not choose Him cannot make the choice for heaven Brian, and yet God still creates them.
OMG, do you ever read what you type and try to make sense out of it?? lol

Let's say I know you're addicted to cocaine. And let's say I know that if I put cocaine in front of you, you will definitelly CHOOSE to sniff it. Does me knowing that you will make that choice cause you to NOT have free-will? No, not at all. All it means is that I know something about your heart in advance, and so I know what choices you'll make, which is exactly how God knows what choices we'll make in advance. Just because God knows a person will not choose Him but rather will choose hell does not mean that person doesn't have free-will. They still can choose. He just knows what they're gonna' choose in advance.

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Where does it say those that choose God, God then in turn chooses them? It doesn't. It says the opposite, that God chooses us before the foundation of the world.
Psalm 91:14-16 says, "BECAUSE he has placed his love upon Me, THEREFORE I will deliver Him." It says it right there, man. The person CHOSE God, and so God CHOSE to save him. Plane and simple... stop twisting what the Bible says and purposely leaving out verses that disprove you.

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It contradicts your wild interpretation of the verse, that's for sure.
Oh, really? Then why don't you quote that verse again and then explain how it makes sense with your doctrine? I'd love to hear your non-contradictory assessment of it! In my belief, the verse makes perfect sense and doesn't contradict itself at all.

Quote:
Once again,
Why did God create people for whom He knew He would not be able to persuade?
Because they'd be robots if He placed something in them that would override their free-will in order to make His persuasions always accepted by them. Robots cannot love. They cannot even be made to love. It's a free-will choice, and a robot has no free-will, nor the capacity to love. We only have that capacity because we have free-will to choose to love. Love IS A CHOICE. Without choice, love is not possible.

Please explain how love is possible if we have no free-will to choose to love someone.

Dude, you're crashing and burning all over the place in this debate.

Be a man. Answer my scenario. I answered yours.

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post #29 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 11:14 PM
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Ok Brian, adjusting for your qualification.

You're in a God-like position, and Satan comes to you for permission to inflict punishment, death, and suffering on 4 out of 10 family members. Please name who Satan can hurt and why.

(see how dumb that is)

I have no further desire to go down your rabbit trails of what-if scenarios and Scripture twistings. When you want to have a grown up conversation, let me know.

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post #30 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 11:15 PM
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Knowing does not equal change of direction.

You can tell a toddler the dangers just as well, they will still do according to their disobedient and curious nature.

Do you rely on just a verbal warning or the danger or do you get up, grab the child, and rescue them from danger?

In the same way, many hear of the danger of their predicament, yet they still act according to their (sin) nature.

Some disregard this danger, even denying it, while for others God intervenes and they can see their danger and they turn to God. That's what Christians call grace.

Disregard=choice....you said it all. Thanks

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post #31 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 11:49 PM
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Disregard=choice....you said it all. Thanks
Yes, they do choose to disregard the Gospel. They act according to their nature (see Romans 3:11).

On the other hand, in order for them to embrace God goes against their nature, and so God must grant this... kind of like it says here >>

Acts 16:14
A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him

2 Timothy 2:25
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

( I don't even have to use made up scenarios or Old Testament verses pulled put of their context... )
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post #32 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-22-2010, 07:20 AM Thread Starter
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Ok Brian, adjusting for your qualification.

You're in a God-like position, and Satan comes to you for permission to inflict punishment, death, and suffering on 4 out of 10 family members. Please name who Satan can hurt and why.

(see how dumb that is)
So now you're calling God stupid?? Because the scenario you just laid out is almost exactly what happened in Job!

I can answer your scenario, but your scenario has no purpose. WHY am I picking 4 of 10 family members to be punished? Is this about salvation? I'd take the four family members that do not believe in God, but I cannot do that if I believe what you believe. I have to just pick randomly, because their choices don't matter. Therefore, I would take all of their names, throw them in a hat, and then draw names one at a time. That's only if I absolutely MUST pick four of them to go to hell, assuming that's what you are asking me to do.

Now, if this follows suit with my scenario, I have to show how that's merciful, compassionate and loving. Sorry, no way to show that. A God that picks people to go to hell against their will is a tyrannical sycophant, a murdering psychopath that likes to play twisted games. That's not God, though... that's Satan. Have fun with your "god".

However, IF I had a choice in the matter (which God does, by the way), I would place the responsibility upon each of those 10 people to choose me. I would give them free-will and tell all of them, "Hey, I came and died for your sins so that all you have to do is choose Me. What do you choose?" And if they choose me, fine. If they don't, fine. The point is that that is the only fair way to do it. However, in your belief, that is not an option. You believe God, and God alone, chooses. And thus, their blood is on God's hands, not their own hands. That just doesn't make any sense unless God is a sociopath whom enjoys killing people for sport.

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I have no further desire to go down your rabbit trails of what-if scenarios and Scripture twistings. When you want to have a grown up conversation, let me know.
Oh!! So you just bailed on the scenario, right?? So you admit you're not man enough to answer the scenario?? I answered all your scenarios and I laid out all the scriptures necessary, proved my points and did everything asked of me, and yet you are too cowardly to answer one simple scenario??

Then you, my friend, are wrong. That's all there is to it. Otherwise, you'd have no problem answering the scenario. The problem is, you will have to show that your "god" is basically a sociopath if your god randomly picks most of the people in the world to go to hell. Nice "god" ya' got there, pal. You can have him. I'll stick with Jesus.

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post #33 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-22-2010, 07:21 AM Thread Starter
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Disregard=choice....you said it all. Thanks
LOL Nice. :P

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post #34 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-22-2010, 07:47 AM Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=Phillystang;6065933]Yes, they do choose to disregard the Gospel. They act according to their nature (see Romans 3:11).
[quote]

You just admitted they have free-will to choose! LOL You're like the worst debater ever! lol

Quote:
On the other hand, in order for them to embrace God goes against their nature, and so God must grant this... kind of like it says here >>
Incorrect. God must give them the CHOICE and call them so they can CHOOSE to answer His call or not. And that's why the Bible says:

Matthew 20:14,16
“For many are called, but few are chosen.”

MANY are called by God, but FEW are chosen, because FEW choose Him. Why the heck is God calling MANY knowing full well He's only going to pick a few?? Answer: God is not the one choosing. They are choosing. What kind of idiot would God be if He called many people to come serve Him and be saved but decided to only pick a few to be saved. The others would say, "God, you're a liar! You called me to serve you and receive salvation, then when I answered the call, you said, 'Sorry, pal, I decided to send you to hell instead, because that's just the kind of loving God I am!'"

Ummm... yeah, that makes a lot of sense right there, doesn't it? Your beliefs screw the Bible up royally so that it makes no sense. Your belief of no free-will causes life to have asolutely no meaning, and God to become a heartless jerk. Sorry, but that's Satan, not God. I'll serve God instead of Satan. You can have Satan all to yourself there, buddy.


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Acts 16:14
A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul.
Matthew 13:15
For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

See that? They CHOSE to close their eyes. Jesus just said they CHOSE to hardned their hearts against Him. He said, "OTHERWISE, they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with thier hearts and turn, and I would heal them." Jesus just placed the blame on those people choosing to harden their hearts! He never once said He did it. He said it was them who did it. He said if THEY would not have chosen to harden their hearts, they would understand them and He would heal them. You see? They chose the hard-heartedness, and it resulted in Jesus not being able to save them, and not being able to open their hearts to understand the truth. Why? Because out of their free-will, they rejected the Holy Spirit's offer to open their hearts and show them truth.

Lydia, on the other hand, was a servant of God, and so she allowed the Holy Spirit to open her heart to the truth out of her own free-will. Try again!

Quote:
Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."
GRANTED. Do you understand what that word means? Do you understand the history behind this verse?

You can grant me a sum of money all you want, but until I choose to take it, it is not mine and I cannot spend it or utilize it in any way. Grant does not mean force. The Jews believed they were the only ones that could obtain salvation from God. And here, God proves them wrong. So they comment that they now see that God has granted the choice of salvation even to the gentiles. There's free-will written all over that verse, man. You just choose, with your free-will, not to see it. LOL

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Philippians 1:29
For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him
Again, "granted" does not mean forced. Where the heck do you get granted meaning "to be forced upon" someone?? It was granted to these people to believe on Christ and suffer for Him because they opened their hearts and accepted His love. They chose NOT to be hard-hearted. All you're doing is trying to twist the passages to show a lack of free-will, but anyone with half a brain can figure out there's free-will in that passage. I think you may need to take an IQ test and post the results. If you turn out intelligent, then your doctrinal duping has made you stupid. It's like the Bible says, "they are willingly ignorant". Nice job fulfilling scripture.


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2 Timothy 2:25
Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,
Again, grant does not mean force upon. Why are we "gently instructing" someone? Huh?? How will that change God's mind so that He suddenly decides to save someone instead of sending them to hell? He already knows if He's gonna' send them to hell or not. Why gently instruct them??

Oh, wait... you don't have an answer for that one, do you? Guess I'll have to ask you repeatedly till you answer that question. I'll answer it from my perspective!

It's simple. God tells us whom will find Him. He says the humble of heart will find Him (among others). This is because a prideful person is resisting God and so God is resisting them in order to do as they wish of their own free-will. So, above, when it says to instruct them gently, the person is trying to help the other person learn the truth about God so that the person's heart will become humble (i.e. - unhardened). In other words, when the person chooses to not have a hard heart anymore, the Holy Spirit has the ability to speak to them and they'll hear it. So then, the Holy Spirit will grant them understanding of the need to repent and be saved, and they will do so.

You, on the other hand, have no answer to my question above. lol


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( I don't even have to use made up scenarios or Old Testament verses pulled put of their context... )
Oh I know. You can fail with New Testament verses just as well, as we just saw.

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post #35 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-22-2010, 08:25 AM Thread Starter
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Philly, have you noticed how no one in this thread is on your side, and no one is agreeing with you? If your case were so air-tight, as you believe it is, don't you think they'd be siding with you and defending your beliefs? And yet they're not... Hmmmmm.... wonder why that is? I guess they're smart enough to figure out Calvanism is absurd. You should jump on the bandwagon. Otherwise, you'll keep getting pwned by people like me.

Oh, ummm... wanna' have some guts now and answer my scenario?

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post #36 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-22-2010, 01:18 PM
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Brian, you bring your preconception of free will onto every text of the Bible, even if the text says the complete opposite, and even if free will isn't even in the Scriptures... as I have shown.

For every clear text I've given you, you impose your preconception of free will on to them. Even though the Scriptures don't say it. As you can see, it is impossible to get anywhere in that situation.

I could say the Scriptures teach that Mary had other children, but if a Catholic had the preconception that Mary was a perpetual virgin (not in the Bible just like free will), then the Catholics will impose their preconception on those Scripture passages to make them say the opposite of what they actually say.

Again, arguing with you from the Scriptures is on par with arguing with a Jehovas Witness or a Morman. There preconception is that the Watchtower Society or Joseph Smith holds the truth, and that is imposed upon any Scripture I would try to bring up to the contrary.

You have argued that manipulation is ok for a true love relationship. Although I'm still single, would it be loving and compassionate for me to manipulate a future woman into loving me back? Surely you see how absurd that is.

You have wrongly accused me of saying God "forces" people to do stuff in some sort of violent way. I've never said that. All I'm saying is that when God does want something to happen, It will happen. If God wants to save someone, he'll save them.

Grace is irresistible. There is no account in the Scriptures of God wanting to save someone, yet failing. Or wanting to do something, yet failing.

God will not be frustrated because He couldn't get something He wanted. That would be a rather weak god.
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post #37 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-22-2010, 01:22 PM
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Philly, have you noticed how no one in this thread is on your side, and no one is agreeing with you? If your case were so air-tight, as you believe it is, don't you think they'd be siding with you and defending your beliefs? And yet they're not... Hmmmmm.... wonder why that is? I guess they're smart enough to figure out Calvanism is absurd. You should jump on the bandwagon. Otherwise, you'll keep getting pwned by people like me.

Oh, ummm... wanna' have some guts now and answer my scenario?
Despite your erroneous assumption, truth is not based upon how many groupies you can rally on your side. The day you stop twisting Scriptures according to your own preconception is the day you "own" me. Hah! I used to foolishly believe the same things you are spewing to me now, so I know how it is to be confused and wrong.

When you're ready to step toe-to-toe with the Scriptures, you will abandon your scenarios and free will fantasies.
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post #38 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-22-2010, 04:31 PM Thread Starter
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You have argued that manipulation is ok for a true love relationship. Although I'm still single, would it be loving and compassionate for me to manipulate a future woman into loving me back? Surely you see how absurd that is.
Stop twisting what I say by changing words. I said manipulation and persuasion are the same thing, but that one has a bad implication to it. I said God persuades people to be saved, but that He manipulates the spiritual realm to cause things to happen in the physical realm. There's nothing wrong with that no matter how you try to twist it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with persuading someone. And yes, you are free to persuade a girl to love you. That's what most people do. But she has to choose of her own free-will to love you in return. And with your obvious disposition of aburd dryness, stubbornnes and pride, I wish you luck. lol Women don't care for any of those traits, which could be why you're still single. Who knows?

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You have wrongly accused me of saying God "forces" people to do stuff in some sort of violent way. I've never said that. All I'm saying is that when God does want something to happen, It will happen. If God wants to save someone, he'll save them.
There you go twisting what I said again, as you always attempt to do, making it as if I'm some evil manipulator. lol I never accused you of saying God forces people to do stuff in a violent way. I accused you of claiming God forces people to do stuff against their will. He never does anything like that. He always asks and persuades until they agree. That's free-will at work. Any other assessment of that would be a stupid assessment. And there is nothing violent about how He persuades people that I can think of right off the top of my head.

This all goes to show how you lack reading comprehension. What I was conveying is that if God were to force people against their will to do things, that would make God evil and tyrannical, and I would not care to know that God. I never said He forces people in a violent way, though. You misunderstand because you're not reading closely or you're purposely twisting. Not sure which. There's the option that you're just plain stupid, but I don't buy that. You clearly show a capacity ot think and reason, at least to some degree. lol

[quore]
Grace is irresistible. There is no account in the Scriptures of God wanting to save someone, yet failing. Or wanting to do something, yet failing.
[/quote]
We've been over this earlier. Did you not read my response? As I said before, God knows the future. What and idiot He would be to try to save someone He knew was going to reject Him ahead of time, and why would He attempt something at which He knew He would fail ahead of time? He wouldn't! That's absurd! So of course there are no examples in the Bible where God tried to save someone and they didn't accept. He doesn't try to save someone that doesn't want to be saved and will never choose it.

HOWEVER, He did die for ALL of the sins of the world so that EVERYONE has the CHOICE to be saved if they so desire it. Now the ball is in their court. He will save absolutely anyone that chooses to be saved. But He's only going to attempt saving those He knows will accept His salvation by choice.

Salvation IS NOT irresistible. That's just a stupid comment you used for your argument. Everyone whom has rejected Jesus and His salvation knows full well what salvation is and they clearly resisted it. LOL So that's just an idiot argument that is easily disprovable. May as well drop that one before you look even more stupid for continuing to argue that point. Besides, look at Nicodemus. Jesus talked to him for a while, and yet Nicodemus did not accept salvation that we know of. He defended Jesus in the Sanhedrin, but never are we told that he converted. He have no clue if he did or didn't. The point is, if salvation were so irresistible, why didn't Nicodemus jump right on the bandwagon? Sorry, but your arguments are clearly not well thought out or reasonsed. Spend more time on them, please.

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God will not be frustrated because He couldn't get something He wanted. That would be a rather weak god.
I never said God would be frustrated. But I guarantee God is not getting what He wants. God wants everyone to be saved. He says it plain as day in scripture:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

I know, I know... you will say, "Oh, but that's addressed to Christians and it's only about them." BS. Why does God need time to save all the Christians if He knows they are going to be saved regardless because He can make it so instantly? Why does He need to be longsuffering? He can snap His fingure and change their will instantly, according to you. Your beliefs once again cause a verse to make no sense. Yes, I've heard you argue this verse absurdly before, so I saved you the time.

That verse is God telling His people that He is patient with the world, as a whole, because He wants as many of them to choose repentance as possible, and therefore, they need to sit tight and trust the Lord and His plan and stop being impatient, waiting for Him to come back, because it will be quite a while before that happens.

My point is that He wants everyone to accept Him and His salvation. But He can't have that, because of the free-will He gave them which was required for love and fairness. He had no choice but to let everyone choose for themselves, and that's why He will never get what He wants - everyone's love.

And if you say God does not desire that everyone be saved, then you just admitted that God is a sick individual who desires that most people suffer and die at His hand. Well, sorry, man... I don't want your god anywhere near me if that's who he is, because he's nothing like my God. You can have your god. Enjoy! I want nothing to do with that tyrannt you worship whom is very similar to Satan in many ways. Have fun telling people there's no home for them to be saved because God hates them. Sounds like a great way to convert people. Oh wait... why try to convert anyone? God's gonna' do that, right? You can just sit back and tell people that if they aren't saved, they're screwed so they may as well live it up in the meantime. I mean, you can't persuade anyone to accept Him, right? He has to force them to love Him, right? So you don't have to do a thing, right? Nice... real nice...

If you cannot see how incredibly unloving that is, then I know exactly why you are single. No woman wants a man (in your case a boy) that does not know what love really is or who to treat others with respect. I'm harsh on you for sheer sport. You are so easy to disprove and I just want to see you be a man for once and answer one simple scenario which you refuse to do. And yet, you won't be a man and answer! You sit back and preach and preach about how you're right and I'm wrong, but you can't answer a simple scenario because you know it would prove your god is evil and knows no love. Pride is an awful thing. Good luck finding a woman like that. Better yet, take a queue from your god and force a woman to love you by tying her up and keeping her in your basement. LOL :P

By the way, when god forces someone to love him, as you say, you call it love and mercy. But when a person tries to force someone to love them, it's not called love and mercy... it's called sick. Your god is sick if that's how he behaves. You should go try it and see if you'r not labelled as sick. See if you don't end up in jail for it. Good luck.

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post #39 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-22-2010, 06:39 PM
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Commentary on God's "foreknowledge"

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post #40 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-23-2010, 08:44 AM Thread Starter
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That's one of the worst argument I've heard so far. There is SOOOOO much assumption and adding to what the scriptures mean in order to come up with those conclusions. Not one video has addressed Psalm 91:14-16, because Calvinists won't touch it with a 10-foot pole. They have to come up with some absurd, circumventing logic for it which makes no sense.

You post videos of people that have arguments just as absurd as yours. What's the point? I don't post videos for you. I speak for myself. I'm not a dupe that learns his doctrine from videos. I did my own reading and research and asked God to show me the truth while doing so. I don't go by what a set of doctrines says. I go by what God teaches me.

All you do is repeat exactly what Calvinists teach. I'm much more along the lines of Anibaptists, but would never say I learned anything from them nor that I am one. I just agree with most of their beliefs. Oh, and guess what... Calvinists of the past martyred the Anabaptists. Great church history there, man.

And the video you just showed further proves that your god is a selfish, unloving, self-satisfying, self-centered tyrannt that couldn't care less about what people want, but rather, only what He wants. Well sorry... I don't want anything to do with your sick, twisted god. You can have him. Have fun telling people they're destined for hell and there's nothing they can do about it. I'm sure that'll help.

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post #41 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-23-2010, 10:12 AM
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That's one of the worst argument I've heard so far. There is SOOOOO much assumption and adding to what the scriptures mean in order to come up with those conclusions. Not one video has addressed Psalm 91:14-16, because Calvinists won't touch it with a 10-foot pole. They have to come up with some absurd, circumventing logic for it which makes no sense.

You post videos of people that have arguments just as absurd as yours. What's the point? I don't post videos for you. I speak for myself. I'm not a dupe that learns his doctrine from videos. I did my own reading and research and asked God to show me the truth while doing so. I don't go by what a set of doctrines says. I go by what God teaches me.

All you do is repeat exactly what Calvinists teach. I'm much more along the lines of Anibaptists, but would never say I learned anything from them nor that I am one. I just agree with most of their beliefs. Oh, and guess what... Calvinists of the past martyred the Anabaptists. Great church history there, man.

And the video you just showed further proves that your god is a selfish, unloving, self-satisfying, self-centered tyrannt that couldn't care less about what people want, but rather, only what He wants. Well sorry... I don't want anything to do with your sick, twisted god. You can have him. Have fun telling people they're destined for hell and there's nothing they can do about it. I'm sure that'll help.
Yes, they used the Scripture to see how a word is used and to see what it means. Scripture defines Scripture, a common biblical principle. They didn't go to scenarios, they didn't define what foreknow means based upon unbiblical presuppositions imposed upon the text. They looked at how the language is used in other contexts to define its meaning.

My theology is God-centered, yours is man-centered. In mine, God gets the glory. In your, man's will gets the glory.

It's as simple as that, and your emotion based reactions to what you think that means doesn't phase me in the least. Most people have a god that they've created in their own image, that is subservient to them. Most people hate the real God described in the Bible. So it doesn't surprise me that you don't want anything to do with that God either.
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post #42 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-23-2010, 10:47 AM Thread Starter
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Yes, they used the Scripture to see how a word is used and to see what it means. Scripture defines Scripture, a common biblical principle. They didn't go to scenarios, they didn't define what foreknow means based upon unbiblical presuppositions imposed upon the text. They looked at how the language is used in other contexts to define its meaning.

My theology is God-centered, yours is man-centered. In mine, God gets the glory. In your, man's will gets the glory.

It's as simple as that, and your emotion based reactions to what you think that means doesn't phase me in the least. Most people have a god that they've created in their own image, that is subservient to them. Most people hate the real God described in the Bible. So it doesn't surprise me that you don't want anything to do with that God either.
At least you admit that the god you believe in is hateful.

My view gives man absolutely no glory. There's nothing glorious or commendable about choosing God. We must realize we are weak and powerless before we can choose to respond to God's calling. There is no glory in that. Only peace and security. His love and sacrifice is still what is recognized above all. You just can't fathom that, though, because of your twisted doctrine.

My view is also not man-centered. It's God-centered. God created us to be friends with Him, to fulfill His need to love and His desire to be loved by others to share a circle of love with us. We are His bride, and He died to save us because we strayed. None of it centers on us. It centers solely on Him and what He has done for us and how He has loved us. You haven't a clue what actual love is.

Like I said before, doesn't matter if you think my scenario is flawed or not. Just do it for crying out loud, then whine, whine, whine about it afterward.

So, are you going to stop being a coward now and answer my scenario?

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post #43 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-23-2010, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BrianC View Post
Like I said before, doesn't matter if you think my scenario is flawed or not. Just do it for crying out loud, then whine, whine, whine about it afterward.

So, are you going to stop being a coward now and answer my scenario?
Atheists create dumb scenarios too. "Can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it?"
No, because God is rational and the question is irrational.

I can't answer your scenario the way you want me to because I'm not God. Your question falsely assumes that I know the purposes of God. Therefore it would be useless for me to even attempt it. Besides, it proves nothing. Nothing at all much like the atheist's scenario.

That's like asking me to decide if I would love Jacob or love Esau. God loved Jacob, and hated Esau. We know it's not because of anything they did, because it was while they were in the womb not having done good or bad.

He acts according to His purposes, not according to man's purposes. I never claimed to know those purposes, but I know that He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.

He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

God is the actor, not the reactor. He is the potter, we are the clay. The clay doesn't direct the potter what to do.

Last edited by Phillystang; 01-23-2010 at 05:10 PM.
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post #44 of 67 (permalink) Old 01-23-2010, 04:10 PM
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At least you admit that the god you believe in is hateful.
Well, God hates sin. God hated Esau.

Psalm 11:5 says:
The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.

So yes, in a sense, you can say that God is hateful, because that's what the Word says.

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My view gives men absolutely no glory. There's nothing glorious or commendable about choosing God. We must realize we are weak and powerless before we can choose to respond to God's calling. There is no glory in that. Only peace and security. His love and sacrifice is still what is recognized above all. You just can't fathom that, though, because of your twisted doctrine.
In your view, man gets the glory because God tried His best. The man was the definitive result of His own salvation. Salvation becomes a result of what man does in that case.

In my view, we sing of amazing grace, grace that changes the sinner's heart to love God and repent of their sins. By the way, the song Amazing Grace was written by a Calvinist.

In your view, grace really isn't that amazing because it is ineffective in most of the cases. Failing grace, I'll pass on that.

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My view is also not man-centered. It's God-centered. God created us to be friends with Him, to fulfill His need to love and His desire to be loved by others to share a circle of love with us. We are His bride, and He died to save us because we strayed. None of it centers on us. It centers solely on Him and what He has done for us and how He has loved us. You haven't a clue what actual love is.
Right, please give me another lesson on manipulation... lol.

Your view is man-centered to the core. It all revolves around the all mighty free will. In your view, God's will is subservient to man's will. How pathetic to any student of the Bible who knows that "many plans are in a man's heart, but the counsel of the LORD will stand."
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post #45 of 67 (permalink) Old 02-08-2010, 05:21 PM Thread Starter
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[QUOTE=Phillystang;6067939]Well, God hates sin. God hated Esau.

Psalm 11:5 says:
The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.

So yes, in a sense, you can say that God is hateful, because that's what the Word says.

Quote:
In your view, man gets the glory because God tried His best. The man was the definitive result of His own salvation. Salvation becomes a result of what man does in that case.
Again, completely incorrect. God did all of the work. All we have to do is make a decision. ANYONE can make a decision, thus, there is no glory in it. Glory means you are risen above the rest. Christians are not rise above the rest just because they can make a choice one way or the other. Anyone can make that choice, and Jesus tells us to be SERVANTS, not to rule everyone. To be Christian means we place others importance above our own and allow God to take care of us. There is no glory in that. You have a twisted view of what glory is. God did all the work, and without Him, humans cannot be saved. Therefore, it is HIS glory, not ours.

Quote:
In my view, we sing of amazing grace, grace that changes the sinner's heart to love God and repent of their sins. By the way, the song Amazing Grace was written by a Calvinist.
Again, love is a choice. Love must be CHOSEN. God's love cannot MAKE us choose Him. There are many people whom God has affected their hearts and they did not change and choose Him. Without choice, there is no possibility of love since love is a choice. You cannot get around that fact, no matter how much you talk and talk and talk...

Quote:
In your view, grace really isn't that amazing because it is ineffective in most of the cases. Failing grace, I'll pass on that.
God is always effective and never fails. You don't seem to understand the concept of choice. I can do everything in my power to help a person that is self-destructive. In fact, I do it daily with multiples. Some of them choose to let me help and some don't. Just because one of them does not choose to let me help them does not mean I failed. It simply means they chose against my objective. I succeeded in my quest to offer help to them. I most certainly did not fail. That is all I can do. I cannot make them do anything. God cannot make us do anything against our free-will which He gave us when He created us in Genesis 1:26-28. Therefore, He has never once failed.

And you could be right. You may have passed on my God. I can't tell for sure. Whomever the god is you serve is quite cruel and hateful. I passed on him when I accepted Jesus. I think that guy's name was Satan, btw.

Quote:
Right, please give me another lesson on manipulation... lol.
When you want to make it look bad, you call persuasion manipulation. And you do this only when I speak of it. But when you speak of something of this nature, you call it persuasion, not manipulation, in order to make it look good. However you want to spin it, persuading someone to do the right thing is perfectly fine. Call it manipulation, but it doesn't change the fact that manipulating or persuading someone to do the right thing is not wrong at all. You work awful hard to make my beliefs look bad, and you fail at it quite well and persistantly.

Quote:
Your view is man-centered to the core. It all revolves around the all mighty free will.
Again, WRONG! A choice is nothing special. GLORY means you are lifted ABOVE everyone else. And yet we are not lifted above God nor are we lifted above anyone else. We are said to still be IN the world, but not OF the world. We are said to be SERVANTS, not placed over anyone else. We are said to be less than God, because He has the glory. Where you get that man has the glory is total BS. You're simply twisting logic here to make it say what you want it to say, and it doesn't make a bit of sense.

If I choose not to do drugs, does that make me special or better than someone else? Am I glorious because of it? Of course not! It's just a choice! I am no better than the druggie down the street. My choice does not make me glorious. Christ's sacrifice on the cross makes Him glorious, as does His perfection and love. Your assessment is full of crap. Show me one instance where a person's choice (no actions, JUST choice) made them glorious, lifted above everyone else.

Quote:
In your view, God's will is subservient to man's will. How pathetic to any student of the Bible who knows that "many plans are in a man's heart, but the counsel of the LORD will stand."
Oh really? How is man's will subservient to God's will?? If God had never died for our sins, we could not have salvation at all! God said HIS will is that ALL repent and be saved. EVERYONE. In other words, all man is doing is figuring out if they want to line up with GOD'S will or not. God made the choice first AND He did the work to make it happen. We do ABSOLUTELY NO WORK. We just make a choice. He still gets and has all the glory. You are completely full of it in your absurd argument.

And what that verse means, smartguy, is that no matter what mankind tries to do, God will get done what He has planned, one way or another. He persuade the right people to get His plans accomplished. His plan is to give everyone A CHOICE and to save as man as will choose Him. He is fully succeeding at that plan.

Without choice, there is no meaning to life, and God is a tyrrant of horrific proportions. And you can have that god all you like. He lives in a very nasty place you'll be seeing soon if that's what you choose. Oh wait, I'm sorry... according to you, it's not a choice. lol

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post #46 of 67 (permalink) Old 02-08-2010, 07:02 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Phillystang View Post
Atheists create dumb scenarios too. "Can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it?"
No, because God is rational and the question is irrational.

I can't answer your scenario the way you want me to because I'm not God. Your question falsely assumes that I know the purposes of God. Therefore it would be useless for me to even attempt it. Besides, it proves nothing. Nothing at all much like the atheist's scenario.

That's like asking me to decide if I would love Jacob or love Esau. God loved Jacob, and hated Esau. We know it's not because of anything they did, because it was while they were in the womb not having done good or bad.

He acts according to His purposes, not according to man's purposes. I never claimed to know those purposes, but I know that He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.

He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.

In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.

God is the actor, not the reactor. He is the potter, we are the clay. The clay doesn't direct the potter what to do.
According to His "kind intention"?? What' kind of crap is that? It makes sense with my belief, but with yours, there is nothing kind about His creating us to send to hell. How idiotic do you have to be to see that??

And once again, you won't even answer my scenario! LOL I mean, it's like you're just begging people not to take you seriously. No matter how stupid and twisted your scenarios were, I still answered them. Every single one of them! You haven't answered mine once. That goes to prove you know your god would come out looking horrifically hateful without an ounce of love. Thanks for that, btw. You're good at shooting yourself in the foot.

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post #47 of 67 (permalink) Old 02-09-2010, 07:36 AM Thread Starter
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Atheists create dumb scenarios too. "Can God create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it?"
No, because God is rational and the question is irrational.
Kind of like, "Do you let the infant cross the street knowing he will get hit by a car?" senario you gave me? lol Now THAT is an irrational scenario, because the kid has no intelligence. We know what sin is. We know we are not supposed to do it. We have consciences. The baby has no clue. That God/Human relationship described in the scenario you laid out is completely irrelivent. It is designed strictly to show your point, but make no sense. And that's the only way you can show your point, is to make humans the equivelant of intelligence devoid infants, which we are not. You're taking all the responsibility away from humans and placing it solely on God.

Well, I have news for ya', buddy. In my scenario, mankind's fall is on him, not God. In your scenario, mankind's fall is on God, because man has no free-will. That means God could have prevented anyone from sinning, but He didn't. In fact, He had to have caused Satan to want to sin and go dupe humans into sinning. It means God failed. God could've kept everyone from sinning so that everyone could go to heaven... but no! God had to be heartless and use His control of humans to make them sin and go to hell.

Nice... real nice...

You claim this somehow shows God's glory, love and mercy (which you have yet to explain), but the truth is, this makes God all the more heartless and tyrannical. Good job. You've once again reduced God to a creature much like Satan. Or are you getting your god confused with Satan? Hmmmm... they sound awful similar, ya' know?

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post #48 of 67 (permalink) Old 02-11-2010, 11:42 PM
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When you have something of substance Brian, let me know... We could go all day doing point by point comments but that leads nowhere.

You've asked me to step in God's shoes which I cannot do. His ways are higher than mine.
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post #49 of 67 (permalink) Old 02-12-2010, 11:35 PM
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I don't mean to intrude but I found this conversation interesting. From what I gathered is that according to phillystang we are subject to predetermined salvation. So to have free will is to sin and in-turn betray god. Did god know he would be betrayed by Lucifer? I mean, he had to decide to betray god in order to become the devil. Suggesting he has free-will. If god knew he was no good why would he create him? god is perfect.

Also, it is unfair for someone that does not know about god to be damned for eternity. That is absurd. How is this loving and merciful? There is no judgment involved.

I am not saying there is no god, but that we have portrayed the wrong image of god in scriptures. God, didn't write them, man did. Based on this, philly has no solid backing in his argument where as others have used philosophy.

Bottom line is the bible is pretty vague and will always be controversial, all we can rely on in our lives is our logic, instinct, and what we perceive and live accordingly.


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post #50 of 67 (permalink) Old 02-13-2010, 12:26 AM
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I don't mean to intrude but I found this conversation interesting. From what I gathered is that according to phillystang we are subject to predetermined salvation.
Those that will believe upon Jesus are... The Bible is clear on this. They are referred to as the elect often in Scriptures.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will

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Originally Posted by 06S197GT View Post
So to have free will is to sin and in-turn betray god.
I don't follow your reasoning here. Having free will is not a sin in itself. That was not the point of any of the discussions here. My argument is that man's will is not autonomous, in other words, man's will does not supercede God's will.

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Originally Posted by 06S197GT View Post
Did god know he would be betrayed by Lucifer? I mean, he had to decide to betray god in order to become the devil. Suggesting he has free-will.
Yes God knew He would be betrayed. Apart from God's grace creatures tend to disobey Him, though we know little about the nature of Angel's possibility of sinning prior to the rebellion. We know however, that there are elect angels as described in 1 Timothy 5:21 that were no doubt kept from following Satan in the rebellion.

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If god knew he was no good why would he create him? god is perfect.
Yes God is perfect, but He makes all things for His own purposes. You have no basis to demand that in order for God to be perfect He must make perfect creatures.

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Originally Posted by 06S197GT View Post
Also, it is unfair for someone that does not know about god to be damned for eternity. That is absurd. How is this loving and merciful? There is no judgment involved.
The judgment is against their sin. Even remote jungle tribes have an internal sense of right and wrong, and they know when they have done wrong.

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Originally Posted by 06S197GT View Post
I am not saying there is no god, but that we have portrayed the wrong image of god in scriptures. God, didn't write them, man did. Based on this, philly has no solid backing in his argument where as others have used philosophy.
The question of the inerrancy of Scriptures is another topic of which I would heartily disagree with you. Of course if you deny the Scriptures as being the Word of God you would by default see my arguments from them to be without backing.

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Originally Posted by 06S197GT View Post
Bottom line is the bible is pretty vague and will always be controversial, all we can rely on in our lives is our logic, instinct, and what we perceive and live accordingly.
I'm confused how you can give a "bottom line" that the Bible is not to be trusted, yet your prescription of what we can trust in is to be taken as some sort of universal truth.
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