This is complete unbiblical hogwash. Where is free will in that passage? It's not. Where do we have free will over our souls? That is in God's hands. He can effect our will if He wants.
Free-will is in that passage, plane as day! It says God gave us DOMINION over everything on the earth. That means ourselves. Dominion is sovereignty. Look it up in an ancient Hebrew expository. That word in that passage means sovereingty, even from God Himself, which is free-will. Again, do some research and you'd know these things!
And if He gave us rule over ALL things on the earth and WE are on the earth, then that means we have sovereignty over ALL of us, all three parts: spirit, soul and body (1 Thess 5:23). Therefore, you're wrong. He can persuade us, sure, but He cannot change our free-will.
"the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and to put it in writing" 2 Chronicles 36:22
The Lord MOVED the heart of Cyrus. MOVED means persuaded. It does not say, "God changed Cyrus' heart against his free-will." It says "moved". When a speaker "moves" a crowd, it means he persuades them. Couldn't you come up with a better passage than this?
"I will make their hearts so fearful in the lands of their enemies that the sound of a windblown leaf will put them to flight." Leviticus 26:36
Again, this is God saying He'll DO something which will cause them all to be fearful. Meaning, He will scare the living daylights out of them, and they will naturally be choosing to fear on their own. He's not saying He's going to force fear on them against their will. Really, dude? This is all you got?
"For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled." Revelation 17:17
This goes hand-in-hand with the verse that says God gives them over to a depraved mind. It's the same thing. God's just handing them over to the beast, to Satan, so they can make themselves subject to him. They do that of their own free-will.
Really, dude... You can do better than this, right??
So now you are arguing that manipulation is love! Hah! You are confused my friend. True love = manipulation. I love it, this is cracking me up.
Manipulation? Nice twist. Manipulation is given a bad wrap because of the way we use it negatively. But persuasion is exactly the same thing, and yet there's nothing wrong with attempting to persuade someone, especially if you're trying to persuade them to do the right thing. Thus, God persuades people to do what is right, and there is much love in that, because He's trying to keep them from choosing hell. You're the only one cracking anyone up here with your complete ignorance of word definitions, man...
You are clearly adding to what the text says Brian. It doesn't say that God foreknew their actions, it says He foreknew them. That is an intimate picture, the way that Adam "knew" Eve.
LOL!!!! OMG, are you serious?? When it says Adam KNEW Eve, it means that had sex, dude. Did you not know that?? Everyone knows that, even non-Bible reading people! So, what, are you saying God is saying He had sex with us ahead of time?? LOL
No, it says for those He foreknew, He predestined. This means that those He knew would accept Him in the future, He chose them ahead of time. There is absolutely no other solution as to what that passage means that causes it to make any sense whatsoever. It says He foreknew them. What did He foreknow about them? He didn't just "know" them in advance. That's just stupid. He foreknows EVERYONE in advance. This means more than just "knowing" someone. It means He foreknew something about them... and since He's choosing them for salvation, it means He knew they would choose Him. Anything else makes no sense. He was definitely NOT having sex with them ahead of time. LOL Nice try, there, though. Thanks for the laugh. lol
Your cannot answer why some love God and why some don't. God must first work in someone's heart for them to love Him.
You are correct in saying that God must work in their heart before they can love Him. But it doesn't mean He's forcing them to love, especially since love cannot be forced and MUST be chosen. You really don't get that whole concept, do you? Let your parents arrange a marriage with a girl you don't like, and you'll understand the concept REAL quick.
God only persuades the heart, persuades the person, "moves" them. The person still must choose for themself, though. There's no infringement upon free-will in that scenario.
Once again you keep bringing up free-will. Of course it doesn't it say God directly hardened Pharoah's heart against Pharoah's free-will. Why? Because free will isn't in the Bible.
Free-will is ALL OVER the Bible. Just because it doesn't use the words free-will doesn't mean it's not in there. lol There is the "free-will offering" in the law, in those exact words. So that word IS in the Bible. But one only needs to read the first chapter to see where God gives us free-will in Genesis 1:26-28. I explained that above. And when we see God asking people to do things and having to persuade them to do those things, we again see free-will at play. Free-will is constant throughout the Bible. You simply choose to not see it. NO WHERE, though, can you find a place where God forces someone to do something against their free-will by, let's say, possessing them and doing something using their body. LOL You'll never find an example of that anywhere in the Bible, because it's not there. God taking away our free-will is no where in scripture. Get over it.
Why doesn't Pharaoh let the people go? Because God declared before it all began that He would harden Phraoh's heart. Cause and Effect!
He did things which caused Pharoah to harden his heart toward God! That's how God made Pharoah harden his heart. God DID things to Pharoah he didn't like, and Pharoah hardened his heart toward God. You have to be purposely avoiding that fact not to see it. Again, you have no case here whatsoever.
The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
See? God tells Moses to perform "all the wonders" He has given him the power to do. Moses doing those things before Pharoah in God's power is what hardened Pharoah's heart. Why? Because if a Muslim comes up to you and does a bunch of stuff in Allah's power, showing that Allah is more powerful than Christ, you would be prideful and harden your heart against him just like Pharoah did to Moses. That's what a person does when they're prideful, and a Pharoah, ruling a kingdom, is extremely prideful. Come on, man... you can do better than this!
You don't understand do you. Why does God show up so strong in Jonah's situation and not everyone else in the world? God's ways of making sure His will is done is not always the same. It is not always "by force" as you try to portray it. How come there is no situation in the Bible where God wanted to do something and yet fails? Because His perfect will is always done.
God never fails because He always has picked exactly the right person in advance for each job, and He persuades them perfectly, and He knows the future, so He knows exactly who will do what He wants them to do. Really? Is this all you can come up with?? Dude... don't ever become a lawyer, because you come up with some really bad arguments...
You are the one who started all this Brian, with all your pm's and your callout post. I have proven you wrong time and again with Scripture, and yet you continue to bring up made up scenarios and misusing Scripture. Very sad.
Oh really? You've proven me wrong over and over again? And I've misused scripture? Ask the other people in this thread if you've clearly disproven me and if I've misused scripture. I guarantee they'll side with me and say you're the one misusing scripture and not proving your case.
I'm a liar? Becuase the majority of your argumentation is based upon emotional scenarios and on terms never mentioned in the Bible in the context of salvation? Please. Your use of Scripture is very surface level at the least... getting free will out of Genesis 1. Show me any Christian in history that has used Genesis 1 to defend the notion of free will.
I love how you need some Christian in history to use an argument before it makes the argument valid. Ask anyone reading this thread if Genesis 1:26-28 is God giving us free-will. They'll tell you it is obviously doing that. And the Anabaptists, historically, use Genesis 1:26-28 to show free-will, which is why the Baptists and Mennonites today still use Genesis 1:26-28 to prove free-will. My knowledge of scripture is far more indepth than yours. You can't even understand that Genesis 1:26-28 is speaking of free-will. How dense do you have to be? Anyone can see that unless they're avoiding it due to screwed up doctrines. Nice work being a dupe. lol
Your most cherished doctrine of "free will" is not taught in the entire Bible, very dangerous if you ask me.
Gen 1:26-28... You and your Calvinist buddies are the only ones that don't see it... everyone else does...
You didn't answer my question Brian. Why did God create people for whom He knew He would not be able to persuade?
Answered it above...
More philosophy. Where in the Scriptures does is say that "God made us the only way He could for us to have the capacity to love, and that's with free-will". It doesn't! Yet that is your major argument. Incredible.
It doesn't NEED to say that! That is common sense! It's a necessity of love! One cannot create us any other way and us have the capacity to love.
Someone that God knows will not choose Him cannot make the choice for heaven Brian, and yet God still creates them.
OMG, do you ever read what you type and try to make sense out of it?? lol
Let's say I know you're addicted to cocaine. And let's say I know that if I put cocaine in front of you, you will definitelly CHOOSE to sniff it. Does me knowing that you will make that choice cause you to NOT have free-will? No, not at all. All it means is that I know something about your heart in advance, and so I know what choices you'll make, which is exactly how God knows what choices we'll make in advance. Just because God knows a person will not choose Him but rather will choose hell does not mean that person doesn't have free-will. They still can choose. He just knows what they're gonna' choose in advance.
Where does it say those that choose God, God then in turn chooses them? It doesn't. It says the opposite, that God chooses us before the foundation of the world.
Psalm 91:14-16 says, "BECAUSE he has placed his love upon Me, THEREFORE I will deliver Him." It says it right there, man. The person CHOSE God, and so God CHOSE to save him. Plane and simple... stop twisting what the Bible says and purposely leaving out verses that disprove you.
It contradicts your wild interpretation of the verse, that's for sure.
Oh, really? Then why don't you quote that verse again and then explain how it makes sense with your doctrine? I'd love to hear your non-contradictory assessment of it! In my belief, the verse makes perfect sense and doesn't contradict itself at all.
Why did God create people for whom He knew He would not be able to persuade?
Because they'd be robots if He placed something in them that would override their free-will in order to make His persuasions always accepted by them. Robots cannot love. They cannot even be made to love. It's a free-will choice, and a robot has no free-will, nor the capacity to love. We only have that capacity because we have free-will to choose to love. Love IS A CHOICE. Without choice, love is not possible.
Please explain how love is possible if we have no free-will to choose to love someone.
Dude, you're crashing and burning all over the place in this debate.
Be a man. Answer my scenario. I answered yours.