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post #1 of 297 (permalink) Old 12-12-2009, 01:37 AM Thread Starter
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The Great Debate - Does God Exist?

I was reflecting on some of the posts on here and the reactions they get. Someone gets flamed from all angles for making a post about Jesus, meanwhile a post asking for prayers is met with unanimous condolences and assurances that prayers have been "sent".

I realize that most of the "Christianity" that is known by many today is from the shallow, prosperity-driven charlatans that you may come across on TBN while channel surfing.

So as an alternative, I would like to share a more scholarly display of Christianity from a debate between Christian Greg Bahnsen and Atheist Gordon Stein on the topic- Does God Exist?

Ideally, comments on the topic of "Does God Exist?" would be left for those that actually listen to the debate below, but that is obviously out of my control and I foresee that request being quickly disregarded.

There are 14 parts, hopefully the playlist works out. (direct link- http://www.youtube.com/view_play_lis...F2FF36C0ECC4A2)

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post #2 of 297 (permalink) Old 12-29-2009, 11:58 PM
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That whole debate is flawed, if you ask me. Thus invalidating it. Pitting one religion (Christianity in this case, according to the black screen on the vid before you hit play) against atheism isn't really going to get you anywhere. Doing that is just as flawed as atheism itself is. Religion as a whole, VS Atheism, should be the debate. Pitting one religion against it will only reduce the whole debate to picking apart tiny details in historical fact/fiction.
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post #3 of 297 (permalink) Old 12-30-2009, 10:29 PM Thread Starter
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That whole debate is flawed, if you ask me. Thus invalidating it. Pitting one religion (Christianity in this case, according to the black screen on the vid before you hit play) against atheism isn't really going to get you anywhere. Doing that is just as flawed as atheism itself is. Religion as a whole, VS Atheism, should be the debate. Pitting one religion against it will only reduce the whole debate to picking apart tiny details in historical fact/fiction.
I take it you are not familiar with presuppositional apologetics?
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post #4 of 297 (permalink) Old 12-31-2009, 12:19 PM
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either one will find out soon enough...
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post #5 of 297 (permalink) Old 12-31-2009, 05:49 PM
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i think so, here is proof.


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post #6 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-01-2010, 09:00 AM
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If God exists, I don't think that any of the religions have God and God's desires/expectations figured out.
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post #7 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-01-2010, 10:45 AM
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Those that are Bible-based do.
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post #8 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-01-2010, 10:57 AM
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post #9 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-03-2010, 12:01 AM
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If God exists, I don't think that any of the religions have God and God's desires/expectations figured out.
I guess if you didn't really believe in organized religion, you would have to think that all he would expect of you, would be for you to go and live according you your nature. That of a human being.
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post #10 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-03-2010, 03:13 AM
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I take it you are not familiar with presuppositional apologetics?
That doesn't apply here. You'd have to assume Judaism is real before you could prove Christianity was for that to work, invalidating your argument. IMO, this isn't an argument that can be settled in the field of logic/debate.

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post #11 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-07-2010, 09:33 PM
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Those that are Bible-based do.
True. I wonder how many of those there are.....from what I can tell ....VERY FEW
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post #12 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-07-2010, 10:16 PM
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I guess if you didn't really believe in organized religion, you would have to think that all he would expect of you, would be for you to go and live according you your nature. That of a human being.
We're all animals. Hell, sometimes we're more animal-like than animals are.
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post #13 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-08-2010, 12:53 AM
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We're all animals. Hell, sometimes we're more animal-like than animals are.
I know. I'm a hypocritical, bigoted animal. Which is a giant self contradiction, but hell who really cares about the elephant in the room these days. In modern society, we've all learned to overlook.
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post #14 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-16-2010, 12:08 AM
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I know. I'm a hypocritical, bigoted animal. Which is a giant self contradiction, but hell who really cares about the elephant in the room these days. In modern society, we've all learned to overlook.
Overlooking is the problem. If we overlook one thing, we miss a chance to better ourselves as men.
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post #15 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-16-2010, 10:15 AM
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Yeah but you don't see that as just a little bit self contradictory? As I tried to explain to lason and exclude (who seemingly just don't want to believe anything outside of what they feel comfortable with) animals act only according to their own nature. As we both know, they are in a sense pre-programmed with what they can and can not do. They can kill each other viciously and for many reasons and no one can ever hold them accountable because they are only animals. You will never ever be able to hold them to any kind of moral standard, which we are held to every day of our lives. By society and our government. And we should be, because we know it's wrong to kill someone who stepped on our yard. However, an animal would not hesitate to kill or maim or otherwise "discriminate against" for less than that.

So as you can see, it's quite impossible for a "man" to be an "animal." He shares many of the same physical characteristics, but being in a believer in evolution you should know that's inevitable anyway, right? I mean after all, according to your set of beliefs, we did evolve right alongside them, correct? Thus of course we are going to be at least somewhat similar. But as I have demonstrated, classifying a human as a type of animal is kind of like calling a battleship a boat. Yeah they are similar in many ways. But that's pretty much where it ends. The battleship is far more than just a boat.

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post #16 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-16-2010, 10:41 AM
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god may exist, but religions that are run by man are flawed as fuck.

I'll show your president the same respect you showed mine.
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post #17 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-17-2010, 01:37 AM
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Yeah but you don't see that as just a little bit self contradictory? As I tried to explain to lason and exclude (who seemingly just don't want to believe anything outside of what they feel comfortable with) animals act only according to their own nature. As we both know, they are in a sense pre-programmed with what they can and can not do. They can kill each other viciously and for many reasons and no one can ever hold them accountable because they are only animals. You will never ever be able to hold them to any kind of moral standard, which we are held to every day of our lives. By society and our government. And we should be, because we know it's wrong to kill someone who stepped on our yard. However, an animal would not hesitate to kill or maim or otherwise "discriminate against" for less than that.
Most animals give warning to those in their territory before attacking them. Just like how a man cocks (I assume it's spelled that way) his gun before immediately pulling the trigger. Some guys just pull the trigger. The only thing that holds more people from just firing is knowing the consequences they'll face via "the law."

Again, I say we're animals. Nothing more, nothing less.

The ability to speak, read, and write has kept man at bay. Good thing too.
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post #18 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-17-2010, 01:48 AM Thread Starter
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Anyone take the time to actually listen to the debate?
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post #19 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-17-2010, 02:01 AM
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Anyone take the time to actually listen to the debate?
In all honesty, no. I have not watched the videos. Why does it have to be christianity vs atheism though? (I'm just looking at the title.)

If you would've asked me a couple years ago, then I would've said that I'm agnostic...leaning towards atheism, however, in the past couple of years, I've learned that atheist are assholes. The whole "I'm right, and if you disagree you're stupid." thing doesn't work for me. For all I know, I'm completely wrong.

Small example of how I try not to discriminate now. Dec 26th, 2009. I had ordered a pizza, and like 10 minutes after ordering, my doorbell rings, and I'm thinking "Damn, that was fast!" but it wasn't the pizza. It was a couple of Jehova's witnesses. They greeted me, and sang a short christmas carol. Then we talked. I told them my opinions of religion, and they told me theirs. I could've easily shut the door on them, but I didn't. I really did want to hear what they had to say. After about 10 minutes of conversation, they told me to have a good day, and I did the same.

Basically, I try to respect people for their beliefs, and in doing so, I hope that they return the favor. I don't want to label myself as a christian, muslim, buddhist, or atheist, or whatever...I just want to be a person that respects other people.
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post #20 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-17-2010, 02:12 AM Thread Starter
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In all honesty, no. I have not watched the videos. Why does it have to be christianity vs atheism though? (I'm just looking at the title.)
Hey Poopnut, I appreciate your newfound tolerance. As to your question, this may sound strange, but follow with me for a moment with the reasoning.

If Jesus is God (as the Christian holds), do you think that Jesus gets more honor from Christians seeking to argue for an impersonal, nameless god OR arguing for the Judeo-Christian God as revealed in the Bible?
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post #21 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-17-2010, 05:39 PM
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god may exist, but religions that are run by man are flawed as fuck.
Not all religions are run by man. Mine, for instance, isn't.
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post #22 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-18-2010, 01:55 PM
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Not all religions are run by man. Mine, for instance, isn't.
You can't prove that in a corporeal sense, so for the purposes of debate, it isn't.

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post #23 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-18-2010, 06:22 PM
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You can't prove that in a corporeal sense, so for the purposes of debate, it isn't.
Christ was the corporeal head of my religion when He was physically alive, and was and still remains it's Spiritual leader. Thus, I agree with you in a sense that there is no debate on that subject.
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post #24 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-19-2010, 10:31 AM
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Christ was the corporeal head of my religion when He was physically alive, and was and still remains it's Spiritual leader. Thus, I agree with you in a sense that there is no debate on that subject.
My point is, you can't prove he was here in the first place, but that's why you're a part of a faith. Your belief transcends the need for physical evidence.

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post #25 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-19-2010, 10:36 AM
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It's simple enough. Things exist. If something exists, it has to have a point at which it came into being - a creation point. If something is created, it has to be created by something or someone. This, philosophically and scientifically, is required. Matter is made up of energy, and that energy had to have come from somewhere. Follow the logic of a creation needing a creator backward and you will find that whatever the source of all things may be, it must be eternal in nature, having no beginning. Therefore, you are forced to conclude that something created everything, and that something is eternal in nature.

Otherwise, you believe that something came from nothing, and that is absolutely illogical, irrational and absurd. This is why the U.S. requires swearing in on the Bible in court. The Founding Fathers figured that anyone whom did not know there was a Creator of some sort must be irrantional since something cannot come from nothing. All of them were scholars of the Old Testament, there of whom were Deists.

The next question is whether it was a thing or a person which created everything. A thing does not have intelligence, only a person. And we see incredibly complicated and well balanced design in every existing thing. Furthermore, we see programming in DNA which is exceptionally similar to the programming in a computer, but far more complicated and advanced.

If someone asked you, "Where did the programming in the computer come from", your answer would clearly not be, "It happened by chance". That's irrational, wouldn't you agree? So why would one think that the programming in DNA has no programmer? That's irrational. The programming in DNA is what has turned tons of evolution scientists into intelligent design scientists. They understand that it is completely impossible for well order, super intelligent programming to spawn all on its own. There must be a programmer, period. There is no other solution.

Therefore, a rational, logical individual will inevitably conclude that there must be an eternal Creator by which all things were created. Any other conclusion is not logical and makes absolutely no sense. If the video established this, sorry for repeating it. I didn't watch the video. :P

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post #26 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-19-2010, 01:15 PM
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Most animals give warning to those in their territory before attacking them. Just like how a man cocks (I assume it's spelled that way) his gun before immediately pulling the trigger. Some guys just pull the trigger. The only thing that holds more people from just firing is knowing the consequences they'll face via "the law."

Again, I say we're animals. Nothing more, nothing less.

The ability to speak, read, and write has kept man at bay. Good thing too.
Well for one thing "most" does not encompass "all". And that's also why I said "or otherwise discriminate against" because animals do not have what we would refer to as a conscience. I mean, have you ever observed them at all? They will kill each other for pretty much any reason, including for sport. As higher beings (than animals) we both know that doing this to another human is wrong. If you don't think it's wrong, then maybe you are an animal. As for me I know it's wrong. This in and of itself proves that I am fundamentally different than an animal.

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It's simple enough. Things exist. If something exists, it has to have a point at which it came into being - a creation point. If something is created, it has to be created by something or someone. This, philosophically and scientifically, is required. Matter is made up of energy, and that energy had to have come from somewhere. Follow the logic of a creation needing a creator backward and you will find that whatever the source of all things may be, it must be eternal in nature, having no beginning. Therefore, you are forced to conclude that something created everything, and that something is eternal in nature.

Otherwise, you believe that something came from nothing, and that is absolutely illogical, irrational and absurd. This is why the U.S. requires swearing in on the Bible in court. The Founding Fathers figured that anyone whom did not know there was a Creator of some sort must be irrantional since something cannot come from nothing. All of them were scholars of the Old Testament, there of whom were Deists.

The next question is whether it was a thing or a person which created everything. A thing does not have intelligence, only a person. And we see incredibly complicated and well balanced design in every existing thing. Furthermore, we see programming in DNA which is exceptionally similar to the programming in a computer, but far more complicated and advanced.

If someone asked you, "Where did the programming in the computer come from", your answer would clearly not be, "It happened by chance". That's irrational, wouldn't you agree? So why would one think that the programming in DNA has no programmer? That's irrational. The programming in DNA is what has turned tons of evolution scientists into intelligent design scientists. They understand that it is completely impossible for well order, super intelligent programming to spawn all on its own. There must be a programmer, period. There is no other solution.

Therefore, a rational, logical individual will inevitably conclude that there must be an eternal Creator by which all things were created. Any other conclusion is not logical and makes absolutely no sense. If the video established this, sorry for repeating it. I didn't watch the video. :P
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Basically, I try to respect people for their beliefs, and in doing so, I hope that they return the favor. I don't want to label myself as a christian, muslim, buddhist, or atheist, or whatever...I just want to be a person that respects other people.
Prime example of what I was saying right here. Name one animal that will ever behave this way. No animal can ever or will ever go against it's nature, or what it feels it should do, in order to accommodate an opposing animal. I really don't know what could possibly offer more proof than that.

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post #27 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-20-2010, 11:19 AM
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My point is, you can't prove he was here in the first place, but that's why you're a part of a faith. Your belief transcends the need for physical evidence.
The Bible provides all the proof required.

In a similar manner, you can't prove that O.J. Simpson committed murder, but it is generally believed and accepted as fact that he did.
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post #28 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-20-2010, 01:45 PM
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The Bible provides all the proof required.

In a similar manner, you can't prove that O.J. Simpson committed murder, but it is generally believed and accepted as fact that he did.
Not to mention the fact that yeah, he did exist. Millions of people aren't just (and weren't back then) just simply "mistaken". Now, if you want to argue whether or not, he was who he says that he was, (and not just a wise man) that's actually valid. I can see where people could argue that. But saying that the guy didn't exist is pretty retarded. Maybe the Buddah didn't exist either, if we are going to go that route. Hell maybe I don't even believe the pope exists. After all, I've never laid my own two eyes on him in person.

I mean, unless you are just a complete fool, you have to at some point take other people's word that things in the past, and in the present, do actually exist. Things that you have never, and possibly will never, see first hand or experience yourself. I have never seen the planet mars up close and personal, all I have seen is pictures of the supposed "surface" of it, and a red dot in the sky one time when it was easily visible from earth. These both could have been something else entirely, but as I'm not a nut I have it on good authority that there is a giant planet out there called Mars which is at least somewhat similar to the earth.

By the same token I can take what would appear to be pretty much a global phenomenon, to be at least real in as much that the guy who started it, existed. Do I need "faith" to do this? Not in the slightest bit. It works just like the eiffel tower works. I am pretty darn sure it's there, even though I have never stood next to it. People who say "he may not have even existed" only make themselves look like blithering idiots.

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- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"

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post #29 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-20-2010, 03:17 PM
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The Bible provides all the proof required.

In a similar manner, you can't prove that O.J. Simpson committed murder, but it is generally believed and accepted as fact that he did.
That's a single source argument, thus invalid, and a non-sequitor, also invalid. The bible says, "believe because I say to," and we could have a tape of OJ killing Nicole and sancho, and that wouldn't prove the Bible is true. I respect your belief, but remember that logic isn't necessary for it. Also, the "we don't know how we got here, and we had to have come from something, so the Bible must be true," argument is a slippery slope argument, and also invalid. You don't have to be logically correct to believe, and I respect your need for comfort and order, even if it's illusory.

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post #30 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-20-2010, 05:07 PM
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The Bible is only illusory to those who choose not to hear it's message. You'll understand what I'm speaking here about someday.
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post #31 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-20-2010, 06:23 PM
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The Bible is only illusory to those who choose not to hear it's message. You'll understand what I'm speaking here about someday.
I'd have to say, have God call my cell. He knows the number.

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post #32 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-20-2010, 08:20 PM
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I'd have to say, have God call my cell. He knows the number.
Assuming (for the sake of this argument at least) that he does exist: Why would the all powerful god of the universe, ever feel the need to prove anything, to the likes of you? Or me? Or anyone? Not his problem some people are too closed minded to consider the fact that something they can't see might exist.

A lack of understanding on your part does not constitute a failure on his part. Hell that's true even for mere human beings.

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- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"
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post #33 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-20-2010, 09:33 PM
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If we're operating within the framework of logic, like a real debate, the burden of proof falls on the person making an assertion. You can't say, "this is the truth," then tell me I can't see the evidence. If that's the case, why make the assertion in the first place?

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post #34 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-20-2010, 11:50 PM Thread Starter
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If we're operating within the framework of logic, like a real debate, the burden of proof falls on the person making an assertion. You can't say, "this is the truth," then tell me I can't see the evidence. If that's the case, why make the assertion in the first place?
Hence, watch the original videos
Are you afraid you may learn something new?
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post #35 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 11:11 AM
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Atheists - just answer one simple question: Did everything come from nothing (i.e. - did all matter simply appear out of thin air with absolutely nothing that caused it to be created)?

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post #36 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 12:32 PM
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Atheists - just answer one simple question: Did everything come from nothing (i.e. - did all matter simply appear out of thin air with absolutely nothing that caused it to be created)?
If everything must be created, who created God?
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post #37 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 12:41 PM
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If everything must be created, who created God?
Nothing and no one created God. This answer is easily found in Exodus 3:14
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post #38 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 12:44 PM
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Nothing and no one created God. This answer is easily found in Exodus 3:14
According to BrianC "If something exists, it has to have a point at which it came into being a - creation point. If something is created, it has to be created by something or someone", so your god is exempt from this logic?
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post #39 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 12:49 PM
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Logic is a human trait by which man tries to pigeonhole his condition into terms he can comprehend. It's a means by which he can comfort himself in the illusion that he can control his nature on his own by finding order in chaos.

God is by no means limited by the constraints of human comprehension.
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post #40 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-21-2010, 09:37 PM
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Atheists - just answer one simple question: Did everything come from nothing (i.e. - did all matter simply appear out of thin air with absolutely nothing that caused it to be created)?
Their best and brightest will come right out and say that they have no idea, and no one else does either. To them, it remains a "mystery". And always will. The power summoned to create a universe is likely far beyond the understanding of a human being. They just can't except that. It doesn't fit into their little box of "man can do and know anything, with the right science."

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- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"
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post #41 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-22-2010, 10:14 PM Thread Starter
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Their best and brightest will come right out and say that they have no idea, and no one else does either. To them, it remains a "mystery". And always will. The power summoned to create a universe is likely far beyond the understanding of a human being. They just can't except that. It doesn't fit into their little box of "man can do and know anything, with the right science."
If I recall, Richard Dawkins proposes that life came from space crystals.
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post #42 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-23-2010, 02:44 AM
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Hence, watch the original videos
Are you afraid you may learn something new?
Nope, and they didn't present anything new that didn't presume a lot on their part. I'm out.

Give me a dollar.
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post #43 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-23-2010, 02:34 PM
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If I recall, Richard Dawkins proposes that life came from space crystals.
Sounds laughable in and of itself, but even still it explains nothing. Goes right back to the same old question: Where did that come from then? Oh that came from this? Well where did this come from then? Like I said, they don't know, even though they claim that no one else does either. Makes it kind of hard to take them seriously. Don't get me wrong, I don't take 90% of religion seriously either. In all likelihood much of it is just stories handed down and exaggerated across the length of time. But also in all likelihood, there is that element of truth in there somewhere. It is possible that early man did know where he came from. Be it space aliens or God or whatever it was.

And then the wild tales span out from there. You know this happens, so what would be the difference between religion and anything else?

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i think thedark1337 is a pretty cool guy. eh plays the game and doesnt afraid of anything


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- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"

Last edited by justinsn95; 01-23-2010 at 02:39 PM.
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post #44 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-24-2010, 12:23 AM
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OK. I can see how people would have different views on who/what created everything; but to say there is no Creator is just silly at best.
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post #45 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-24-2010, 12:24 AM
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Their best and brightest will come right out and say that they have no idea, and no one else does either. To them, it remains a "mystery". And always will. The power summoned to create a universe is likely far beyond the understanding of a human being. They just can't except that. It doesn't fit into their little box of "man can do and know anything, with the right science."
That's agnostic, not atheistic.
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post #46 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-25-2010, 12:49 AM
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In my experience, the typical "atheist" is someone who will not even allow for the possibility of a creator. Even though by the own science that they claim supports them, there is a possibility, however remote it may be. Of course I guess even these "atheists" aren't really technically atheists, unbeknownst to them.

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i think thedark1337 is a pretty cool guy. eh plays the game and doesnt afraid of anything


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- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"
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post #47 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-28-2010, 07:30 AM
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There is no god. People who beleave in a god are just afried to beleave in them selfs. (i know i cant spell, deal with it)

1991 Ford SHO- All stock for now...

That MF'er is prolly so fast it would be like riding a big giant can of rape named bubba just outta prison set free in a girls college dorm.
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post #48 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-28-2010, 07:59 AM
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There is no god. People who beleave in a god are just afried to beleave in them selfs. (i know i cant spell, deal with it)
If this post is representative of how far individuals who are not afried to beleave in them selfs can go in life, I'll stick with God thank you very much. (I can spell, deal with it)
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post #49 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-28-2010, 08:49 AM
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There is really no reason to be having this talk/debate. I mean we are not going to make yall see there is no god and you will never make us think there is.

Myself, I use to beleave in god. I use to think that he would be there to protect me and guide me. But as I would lay on the ground with my dad over me beating and braking me, I would look up and BEG for help BEG YOUR FUCKING GOD TO PROTECT ME AND NOTHING!!!! It went on my whole child hood till one day I was big enough to take care of it myself. I beat him so bad he spent 3 weeks in ICU!!!!! He will never hit me again. Your god didnt do anything, I DID!!!

Christans are always looking up for the ansers. Yall would see that the anser is in front of you if you would get your heads out of the sky.

You know that christianity is a multle billon doller ind. All christianity is is a control, it takes your money, you time, and you get nothing back.

1991 Ford SHO- All stock for now...

That MF'er is prolly so fast it would be like riding a big giant can of rape named bubba just outta prison set free in a girls college dorm.
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post #50 of 297 (permalink) Old 01-28-2010, 08:54 AM
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There is really no reason to be having this talk/debate. I mean we are not going to make yall see there is no god and you will never make us think there is.

Myself, I use to beleave in god. I use to think that he would be there to protect me and guide me. But as I would lay on the ground with my dad over me beating and braking me, I would look up and BEG for help BEG YOUR FUCKING GOD TO PROTECT ME AND NOTHING!!!! It went on my whole child hood till one day I was big enough to take care of it myself. I beat him so bad he spent 3 weeks in ICU!!!!! He will never hit me again. Your god didnt do anything, I DID!!!

Christans are always looking up for the ansers. Yall would see that the anser is in front of you if you would get your heads out of the sky.

You know that christianity is a multle billon doller ind. All christianity is is a control, it takes your money, you time, and you get nothing back.


Hey awesome, you beat up your dad, way to be a solver.


God let His own Son die for you, what makes you so special?

Life is pain sometimes, why dont you use your experience to help kids in the same situation instead of being pissed at God.

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