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post #1 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-06-2009, 01:37 PM Thread Starter
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Stupid people

I wanted to address this idea that the typically stupid atheists have these days. It seems that some atheist, at some point, heard another atheist say, that christianity had somehow stalled out the progression of science. To them I would ask "Are you daft?" Are you assuming that the only people who existed in the world during the period of time you are talking about, lived in the relatively small region that christianity affected? Were there no asians of any kind back then? No one at all lived in south america? Or north america? There were no natives to the continent of australia? There were no people, outside of the small area that christianity could have affected, that could have possibly advanced science? You are either extremely ignorant, or a racist. Or both.

On top of that, I have a hard time believing that someone in shining armor with a cross on his shield, came by every time someone Developed a more efficient spinning wheel, or a better gearing system for the mill, and told them that it was "the devil" and made them take it down. How stupid do you assume people from ancient times were? Even the evil tyrant who would have been running such a charade, would have been like "Oh, you mean this lets you make more thread (or grain, or tax revenue, or whatever) for me to come and take from you? Yeah fuck that. I enjoy having less. I am not greedy at all. In fact, what's greed? Never heard of the stuff." So as you can see, this whole statement, and anyone who stands behind it, is obviously an idiot, with no common sense, and a very tiny understanding of the way the world works. The end.
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post #2 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-06-2009, 01:41 PM
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Point taken. my only question to you is, why are you just pointing out Christianity as the only religion holding back technology?
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post #3 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-06-2009, 01:51 PM
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If you don't believe religion has held back technology, then does that mean that Atheism is holding back true technological advances?
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post #4 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-06-2009, 01:59 PM
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The catholic church definitely put people under house arrest and killed some that made discoveries, mostly astrological discoveries back in the day. It doesn't mean that people didn't continue with their research though. I can't remember who it was, but somebody published a paper that with every first letter of each paragraph it spelled out "THE WORLD IS ROUND." or something like that.

It's been a few years since I've taken an astronomy class.

I won't consider myself an atheist though even though I don't believe in religion. The brand Atheist usually comes with other things like being a self-righteous asshole who thinks he's never wrong.
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post #5 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-06-2009, 03:19 PM Thread Starter
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Point taken. my only question to you is, why are you just pointing out Christianity as the only religion holding back technology?
Cause that's what seems to be going around. Been hearing it more and more lately. The "Dark Ages". Well, maybe in that area. But I guess those were the only "smart people" who could have advanced science. So my take on it is that no, they did not hold us back 1000 years, as they all say. Not to mention that no one is saying buddhism did it. Cause they know they would be laughed at. Or any other peaceful religion, for that matter.

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If you don't believe religion has held back technology, then does that mean that Atheism is holding back true technological advances?
I wouldn't think so, since not even the modern religious think that advances in science are "The devil". However I will say that atheism is by far not a new concept. There were just as many atheists in the old days as there are now, they just couldn't openly talk about it for fear of persecution. And as such, there would have been a few in power. Who either would have just used religion to their own ends, or ignored it completely when making decisions based on something like science, that would be helping them. I mean think about it. What would you have done? And then, what makes them any different from you?

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post #6 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-06-2009, 09:51 PM
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I wanted to address this idea that the typically stupid atheists have these days. It seems that some atheist, at some point, heard another atheist say, that christianity had somehow stalled out the progression of science. To them I would ask "Are you daft?" Are you assuming that the only people who existed in the world during the period of time you are talking about, lived in the relatively small region that christianity affected? Were there no asians of any kind back then? No one at all lived in south america? Or north america? There were no natives to the continent of australia? There were no people, outside of the small area that christianity could have affected, that could have possibly advanced science? You are either extremely ignorant, or a racist. Or both.

On top of that, I have a hard time believing that someone in shining armor with a cross on his shield, came by every time someone Developed a more efficient spinning wheel, or a better gearing system for the mill, and told them that it was "the devil" and made them take it down. How stupid do you assume people from ancient times were? Even the evil tyrant who would have been running such a charade, would have been like "Oh, you mean this lets you make more thread (or grain, or tax revenue, or whatever) for me to come and take from you? Yeah fuck that. I enjoy having less. I am not greedy at all. In fact, what's greed? Never heard of the stuff." So as you can see, this whole statement, and anyone who stands behind it, is obviously an idiot, with no common sense, and a very tiny understanding of the way the world works. The end.
Wow, where to begin.. First of all, all of those areas you spoke about were always technologically behind Europe. Asian, South American, Native American, and Aboriginal Australian society all lived very differently than those in "western" cultures. That is not to say they weren't as intelligent since intelligence cannot be measured by a society’s technology alone, and it is not racist to say it. It is simply a historical fact. They were held back for various reasons of their own, not related to Christianity.

Secondly, the things you mention as examples: the spinning wheel and mill gearing, were not impeded by religion, and I have a hard time believing anyone has declared such. The fact is that much of the forward thinking in lace>Europelace> was tightly controlled by the Catholic Church and there is plenty of documentation of such. Some of the primary areas where these limitations are documented were in medicines, study of human anatomy and astronomy (not to mention literature and the arts). To act as if this didn't happen is not only naive but ignorant on your part.

Now, by classifying Atheists (or more appropriately, non believers since we don't all deny God) as ‘typically stupid’ right out of the chute, you only lessen the validity of your argument. You are making a sophomoric attack, not valid arguments, on non-believers and are only making yourself look foolish in the process. I would finish with 'the end' but I am quite certain this is really the beginning....


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post #7 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-07-2009, 08:45 AM
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The catholic church definitely put people under house arrest and killed some that made discoveries, mostly astrological discoveries back in the day. It doesn't mean that people didn't continue with their research though. I can't remember who it was, but somebody published a paper that with every first letter of each paragraph it spelled out "THE WORLD IS ROUND." or something like that.

It's been a few years since I've taken an astronomy class.

I won't consider myself an atheist though even though I don't believe in religion. The brand Atheist usually comes with other things like being a self-righteous asshole who thinks he's never wrong.
I think you are correct, that religion can't hold someone back from continuing their research. Faith does not hold one back from committing sin, so why would faith hold someone back in the area of research?

On the other hand, if one is a non-believer, and a God does exist, they would be handicapped from the beginning, believing in a limited world in an unlimited world of possibilities. Furthermore if that non-believer went as far as becoming an Atheist, he would force his handicaps on those who do believe and further hurt a societies ability to think and invent ideas in a realm of thinking where anything is possible. To sum it up, religion never stopped technological advances through history from happening, but Atheism hinders a society more than religion ever has.

More advances in technology has been made by those who believe, than those who don't.
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post #8 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-07-2009, 08:49 AM
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Point taken. my only question to you is, why are you just pointing out Christianity as the only religion holding back technology?
Right, since most Christian nations are European and the USA derived is roots from Europe we as Christians are resposible for the dawning age of technology. The Muslims and Hindu's and still stuck in the dark ages. If it wasn't for the western Christian technology the middle east and India would still be shit. Oh wait they are still shit.





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post #9 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-07-2009, 09:08 AM
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A nice attempt at a defense of the medieval christian church I guess.

Fact is, the church frowned upon and officially sanctioned so many things that this thread could go on in perpetuity. The most obvious was the idea that the world was not flat. Darwin struggled with revealing his theory because he was sure that he would be labeled a heretic. And gunpowder, from its very conception, was labeled as something of demonic influence for at least a century.

People who point these things out aren't necessarily against christianity. They are just realistic. History holds a lot of lessons that people really love to ignore, that is why we repeat it.
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post #10 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-07-2009, 09:20 AM
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More advances in technology has been made by those who believe, than those who don't.
Wat?

Where do you get that from?

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post #11 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-07-2009, 09:49 AM
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A nice attempt at a defense of the medieval christian church I guess.

Fact is, the church frowned upon and officially sanctioned so many things that this thread could go on in perpetuity. The most obvious was the idea that the world was not flat. Darwin struggled with revealing his theory because he was sure that he would be labeled a heretic. And gunpowder, from its very conception, was labeled as something of demonic influence for at least a century.

People who point these things out aren't necessarily against christianity. They are just realistic. History holds a lot of lessons that people really love to ignore, that is why we repeat it.
Fact is, even if the inventor struggled with deploying his ideas due to religion, it still got out nonetheless. Even if these ideas or inventions were hindered from religion, it only pressed the inventor to move forward with his or her theories and inventions. Without resistance, improvements would never have been sought after as much as it would without resistance.

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Wat?

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Can you prove me wrong?
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post #12 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-07-2009, 01:54 PM Thread Starter
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Wow, where to begin.. First of all, all of those areas you spoke about were always technologically behind Europe. Asian, South American, Native American, and Aboriginal Australian society all lived very differently than those in "western" cultures. That is not to say they weren't as intelligent since intelligence cannot be measured by a society’s technology alone, and it is not racist to say it. It is simply a historical fact. They were held back for various reasons of their own, not related to Christianity.

Secondly, the things you mention as examples: the spinning wheel and mill gearing, were not impeded by religion, and I have a hard time believing anyone has declared such. The fact is that much of the forward thinking in lace>Europelace> was tightly controlled by the Catholic Church and there is plenty of documentation of such. Some of the primary areas where these limitations are documented were in medicines, study of human anatomy and astronomy (not to mention literature and the arts). To act as if this didn't happen is not only naive but ignorant on your part.

Now, by classifying Atheists (or more appropriately, non believers since we don't all deny God) as ‘typically stupid’ right out of the chute, you only lessen the validity of your argument. You are making a sophomoric attack, not valid arguments, on non-believers and are only making yourself look foolish in the process. I would finish with 'the end' but I am quite certain this is really the beginning....

Care to point out what hindered all other cultures? Cause there's no way in hell all of them had "various reasons of their own". There were just plain too many of them, that were far beyond the reach of Europe. Sure maybe some others had some problems. What, I don't know, but I'll allow for some. Not all of them could have been held back, is the point. All it is, is a jaded attempt to label something that a certain group doesn't like, as "bad". Atheists clearly don't like religion. Don't try to tell me otherwise, I know a great many of them personally. So, in conclusion, we are right where we should be, and would be, technologically. Hell, if anything we are a little farther along due to Hitler's Atrocities.

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A nice attempt at a defense of the medieval christian church I guess.
Not really. I could really care less about the medieval church, as this is not medieval times. A nice attempt to show the major flaw in a modern day debate, maybe.

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Fact is, the church frowned upon and officially sanctioned so many things that this thread could go on in perpetuity.
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No, there is a finite amount. For that to be true they would have had to have done it to quite literally everything.
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The most obvious was the idea that the world was not flat. Darwin struggled with revealing his theory because he was sure that he would be labeled a heretic. And gunpowder, from its very conception, was labeled as something of demonic influence for at least a century.
He lived well outside the dark ages that the whole debate is about.

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People who point these things out aren't necessarily against christianity. They are just realistic. History holds a lot of lessons that people really love to ignore, that is why we repeat it.

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Realistic is a relative term. For those who believed in an unseen world, it was completely realistic to think that gunpowder could have been "inspired". Now does this mean the everyone was completely closed minded, and were somehow hindering it? No. They still used it, didn't they? You bet they did.
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post #13 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-07-2009, 01:57 PM Thread Starter
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Wow, where to begin.. First of all, all of those areas you spoke about were always technologically behind Europe. Asian, South American, Native American, and Aboriginal Australian society all lived very differently than those in "western" cultures. That is not to say they weren't as intelligent since intelligence cannot be measured by a society’s technology alone, and it is not racist to say it. It is simply a historical fact. They were held back for various reasons of their own, not related to Christianity.

Secondly, the things you mention as examples: the spinning wheel and mill gearing, were not impeded by religion, and I have a hard time believing anyone has declared such. The fact is that much of the forward thinking in lace>Europelace> was tightly controlled by the Catholic Church and there is plenty of documentation of such. Some of the primary areas where these limitations are documented were in medicines, study of human anatomy and astronomy (not to mention literature and the arts). To act as if this didn't happen is not only naive but ignorant on your part.

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Now, by classifying Atheists (or more appropriately, non believers since we don't all deny God) as ‘typically stupid’ right out of the chute, you only lessen the validity of your argument. You are making a sophomoric attack, not valid arguments, on non-believers and are only making yourself look foolish in the process. I would finish with 'the end' but I am quite certain this is really the beginning....
Care to point out what hindered all other cultures? Cause there's no way in hell all of them had "various reasons of their own". There were just plain too many of them, that were far beyond the reach of Europe. Sure maybe some others had some problems. What, I don't know, but I'll allow for some. Not all of them could have been held back, is the point. All it is, is a jaded attempt to label something that a certain group doesn't like, as "bad". Atheists clearly don't like religion. Don't try to tell me otherwise, I know a great many of them personally. So, in conclusion, we are right where we should be, and would be, technologically. Hell, if anything we are a little farther along due to Hitler's Atrocities. Who was a self proclaimed Atheist, interestingly enough.


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A nice attempt at a defense of the medieval christian church I guess.
Not really. I could really care less about defending the medieval church, as this is not medieval times. A nice attempt to show the major flaw in a modern day debate, maybe.

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Fact is, the church frowned upon and officially sanctioned so many things that this thread could go on in perpetuity.

No, there is a finite amount. For that to be true they would have had to have done it to quite literally everything.

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The most obvious was the idea that the world was not flat. Darwin struggled with revealing his theory because he was sure that he would be labeled a heretic. And gunpowder, from its very conception, was labeled as something of demonic influence for at least a century.
He lived well outside the dark ages that the whole debate is about.

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People who point these things out aren't necessarily against christianity. They are just realistic. History holds a lot of lessons that people really love to ignore, that is why we repeat it.

Realistic is a relative term. For those who believed in an unseen world, it was completely realistic to think that gunpowder could have been "inspired". Now does this mean the everyone was completely closed minded, and were somehow hindering it? No. They still used it, didn't they? You bet they did.

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post #14 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-07-2009, 02:33 PM
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post #15 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-07-2009, 02:58 PM
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Can you prove me wrong?
Typical Christian response.
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post #16 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-07-2009, 03:09 PM
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I didn't make the statement, you did, the burden is on you.
It wasn't a statement of fact. I can't prove my point, other than to say 80% of the population belongs to some religion, therefore more technology advances come from people who are believers. That is why I posted this in the Theology forum...

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Typical Christian response.
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Typical non-believer response.
Atheist: Give me proof, beyond any doubt, that I'm wrong and you're right.
Christian: I can't...
Atheist: Didn't think so. I'm off to push my agenda through the courts and other branches of government, later.
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post #17 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-07-2009, 03:11 PM
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He lived well outside the dark ages that the whole debate is about.
Do you think that in the Dark Ages religion stalled technological advancements? If so, is it so hard to think that religion stalls advancements today? If you're looking for an example, one that comes to mind is stem cell research.

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post #18 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-07-2009, 03:16 PM
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post #19 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-07-2009, 03:19 PM
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I think you are correct, that religion can't hold someone back from continuing their research. Faith does not hold one back from committing sin, so why would faith hold someone back in the area of research?

On the other hand, if one is a non-believer, and a God does exist, they would be handicapped from the beginning, believing in a limited world in an unlimited world of possibilities. Furthermore if that non-believer went as far as becoming an Atheist, he would force his handicaps on those who do believe and further hurt a societies ability to think and invent ideas in a realm of thinking where anything is possible. To sum it up, religion never stopped technological advances through history from happening, but Atheism hinders a society more than religion ever has.

More advances in technology has been made by those who believe, than those who don't.
While I can neither confirm, nor deny that last statement, I seriously doubt that any scientist sets out to prove a theory for the sole purpose of proving there is no God. As far as Atheism crippling society more than religion...not really. Religion practices the "I'm right, therefore you must be wrong." philosophy, just like Atheism does. Atheists are typically self-righteous and self-proclaimed know-it-all's that attack people that are different than them. Basically they're Born-Again Christians that don't believe in God.

Atheism might cripple social evolution on a more personal level, but they're not organized and therefore will never have the power of numbers on their side. Christianity (and other religions in other areas of the world) organized long ago. Before the Renaissance, before technological revolutions, and the major churches didn't like ideas floating around that sparked the masses curiosity. It's a lot easier to control the ignorant than the informed so when an idea came along that could cause a stir, it would first be brushed aside with a warning, then house arrest usually followed, and eventually some type of public execution might be made to make an example.

Now, was that God's will? If you believe in God, then yes, I guess it would be. Those people were killed so that another could continue the work. If you don't believe in God, then I could see how that you would think that religion has held science back.

Who knows? Why cry over spilled milk? In a sense, it's just somebody pointing the finger at somebody else. "Well, I could've been a space traveler if it wasn't for the church holding science back over 1,000 years ago."

I'm just glad there is a separation of church and state this day and age. That's all I'll say.
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post #20 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-07-2009, 03:27 PM
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Not really. I could really care less about defending the medieval church, as this is not medieval times. A nice attempt to show the major flaw in a modern day debate, maybe.
Obviously we are talking about a contemporary time period, that is why you stated in your first post:

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On top of that, I have a hard time believing that someone in shining armor with a cross on his shield, came by every time someone Developed a more efficient spinning wheel, or a better gearing system for the mill, and told them that it was "the devil" and made them take it down.
I can see that you obviously were talking about World War II.

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Realistic is a relative term. For those who believed in an unseen world, it was completely realistic to think that gunpowder could have been "inspired". Now does this mean the everyone was completely closed minded, and were somehow hindering it? No. They still used it, didn't they? You bet they did.
Your original post ponders the question, did religion hinder technological development? Would labeling something "heretical" be hindering it? I don't know anyone who would argue that it wouldn't. Well, except for you I guess.
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post #21 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-09-2009, 12:46 AM
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Care to point out what hindered all other cultures? Cause there's no way in hell all of them had "various reasons of their own". There were just plain too many of them, that were far beyond the reach of Europe. Sure maybe some others had some problems. What, I don't know, but I'll allow for some. Not all of them could have been held back, is the point. All it is, is a jaded attempt to label something that a certain group doesn't like, as "bad". Atheists clearly don't like religion. Don't try to tell me otherwise, I know a great many of them personally. So, in conclusion, we are right where we should be, and would be, technologically. Hell, if anything we are a little farther along due to Hitler's Atrocities. Who was a self proclaimed Atheist, interestingly enough.




Not really. I could really care less about defending the medieval church, as this is not medieval times. A nice attempt to show the major flaw in a modern day debate, maybe.




No, there is a finite amount. For that to be true they would have had to have done it to quite literally everything.



He lived well outside the dark ages that the whole debate is about.




Realistic is a relative term. For those who believed in an unseen world, it was completely realistic to think that gunpowder could have been "inspired". Now does this mean the everyone was completely closed minded, and were somehow hindering it? No. They still used it, didn't they? You bet they did.
The church of old is what people are talking about when they say religions holds back science. Just an FYI. Remember all of your prayer threads for your family? Yeah, science helped your family. Not prayers. Like I posted in one of them, science gave your relative a 98% chance to live, but Jesus will get all the credit whether or not he had something to do with the other 2%. Fucked up huh? On a side note...I'm glad your family members are fine.
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post #22 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-09-2009, 07:01 AM
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The church of old is what people are talking about when they say religions holds back science. Just an FYI. Remember all of your prayer threads for your family? Yeah, science helped your family. Not prayers. Like I posted in one of them, science gave your relative a 98% chance to live, but Jesus will get all the credit whether or not he had something to do with the other 2%. Fucked up huh? On a side note...I'm glad your family members are fine.
Actually, Jesus has everything to do with the other so he does get 100% of the credit.
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post #23 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-09-2009, 10:35 PM Thread Starter
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This is the exact same argument, just from opposite ends. And thus, your argument is not an argument.

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Do you think that in the Dark Ages religion stalled technological advancements? If so, is it so hard to think that religion stalls advancements today? If you're looking for an example, one that comes to mind is stem cell research.
That's not an example, I'm afraid. Many countries are hard at work on stem cell research. That's just like saying that the only races that would have or could have advanced technology, were the ones who were in that small area. Same difference. Are we the only country high and mighty enough to make that breakthrough? The one that cures paralysis and Alz-Heimers? Not by a longshot.

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Originally Posted by AL P View Post
Obviously we are talking about a contemporary time period, that is why you stated in your first post:
Yeaahhh... but that still doesn't mean I was defending it. I was using it in the argument, yes. But like I said, this ain't medieval times so I could care less to "defend the medieval church" as you put it. And I don't see why you would think anyone would even bother, or care to.

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Originally Posted by AL P View Post
Your original post ponders the question, did religion hinder technological development? Would labeling something "heretical" be hindering it? I don't know anyone who would argue that it wouldn't. Well, except for you I guess.
Heretical means "wants to divide, or cause a schism." The church council would not be divided on the issue. They would be unanimous, or the people who spoke out would be killed. So that's not really valid.
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post #24 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-10-2009, 12:25 AM
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Heretical means "wants to divide, or cause a schism." The church council would not be divided on the issue. They would be unanimous, or the people who spoke out would be killed. So that's not really valid.


he·ret·i·cal (h-rt-kl)
adj.
1. Of or relating to heresy or heretics.
2. Characterized by, revealing, or approaching departure from established beliefs or standards.

her·e·sy (hr-s)
n. pl. her·e·sies
1.
a. An opinion or a doctrine at variance with established religious beliefs, especially dissension from or denial of Roman Catholic dogma by a professed believer or baptized church member.
b. Adherence to such dissenting opinion or doctrine.
2.
a. A controversial or unorthodox opinion or doctrine, as in politics, philosophy, or science.
b. Adherence to such controversial or unorthodox opinion.

her·e·tic (hr-tk)
n.
A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.
adj.
Heretical.


schism [ˈskɪz- ˈsɪzəm]
n
1. the division of a group into opposing factions
2. the factions so formed
3. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) division within or separation from an established Church, esp the Roman Catholic Church, not necessarily involving differences in doctrine
[from Church Latin schisma, from Greek skhisma a cleft, from skhizein to split


Does the sun revolve around the earth or the earth around the sun? Such a question sounds quite bizarre to the twentieth century ear, yet it was Galileo’s teaching that the earth revolved around the sun that forced Galileo into his dramatic confrontation with the church leaders and theologians.4 But why would the theological community label as heresy a scientific theory that placed the sun and not the earth at the center of the world? The answer is clear. The church leaders were convinced that the scriptures teach that the earth is the center of the universe.5 When forced to choose between God’s revelation which teaches a geocentric view of the universe and Galileo’s heliocentric hypothesis, the choice was obvious. Divine revelation must be given priority.

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post #25 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-10-2009, 03:23 PM
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Ironic thread title considering the content!
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post #26 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-11-2009, 03:38 AM
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Wow, justin is struggling...ouch.
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Wow, exclude is really struggling.






See how vague that comment is?
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post #28 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-12-2009, 08:21 PM
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Wow, exclude is really struggling.






See how vague that comment is?
Except we have evidence of your struggle. Please see above.
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post #29 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-13-2009, 02:48 AM Thread Starter
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Ok well at least this time everyone can tell what you are talking about. As in, I was struggling in my argument? I couldn't tell whether you were talking about that, or with religion in general. Might try being a little less vague next time.
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If I wanted to do that, I would deconstruct your argument and show you all your logical fallacies and circular talking you've used in this thread. But I don't.
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post #31 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-14-2009, 02:37 AM Thread Starter
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Go ahead. I would welcome that. We could go round and round in circles for eternity. However, I did think that I needed to clarify some of the stuff I said. So some of what you would point out, would just be my own fault, and not some hole that your almighty logic poked.
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post #32 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-14-2009, 03:39 AM
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Originally Posted by justinsn95 View Post
Go ahead. I would welcome that. We could go round and round in circles for eternity. However, I did think that I needed to clarify some of the stuff I said. So some of what you would point out, would just be my own fault, and not some hole that your almighty logic poked.
i know you weren't quoting me. but, i was going to just say that the argument wasn't very well laid out in my opinion.

the idea that atheists only look to Christianity as hindering technology. I would think that if an atheist made this argument, he or she would just use the broader sense that religion has hindered technology. i have not heard this argument from atheists so i would assume they would make the strongest argument possible, and by adding different religions, especially islam, would strengthen the argument.

there is a lot of evidence that religion has hindered technology throughout the ages. i think there have been many examples laid out in this thread.

but, it isn't clear if you mean that because of religion the atheists you start the argument with are claiming we would be any more technologically advanced than we are now. There is no way to know this because we can only assume either side.

a case could be made that God has given us just as much technology as he desires us to have.

or,

that without religion we could possibly have more technology than we do now.

no way to really know.

I would say that by making the claim that atheists are typically stupid weakens your argument from the get go. Intelligence can't be measured on belief in a God. There are stupid atheists and stupid theists, or deists or polytheists. but, if you are going to go this route and label atheists as typically stupid, you being a theist should have known the definition of heretical before claiming the false definition as fact.

but i am rambling, i do that drunk. i should go to bed.

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post #33 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-14-2009, 08:47 AM
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Christianity in particular hindered technology as far as in Europe goes. It's not like Europe had the only scientists though. They probably did have some of the better technology however.

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post #34 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-14-2009, 04:15 PM Thread Starter
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@ tenacious J

Where I got it from was that retarded chart they love to whip out every time they want to bash what they dislike. I'm sure you have seen it. It clearly shows that christianity is the reason for no less than a loss of 1000 years of technological development. (It's in another thread here, but I have seen it popping up all over)This is completely laughable, and based on no fact whatsoever other than the dark ages. As stated by some of the other members in this thread, they would not have, and in fact could not have, help technology back from advancing, least of all for 1000 years.
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post #35 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-14-2009, 05:36 PM
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If you READ the books instead of burning them you would learn:

Wikipedia:

After 1610, when he began supporting heliocentrism publicly, he met with bitter opposition from some philosophers and clerics, and two of the latter eventually denounced him to the Roman Inquisition early in 1615. Although he was cleared of any offence at that time, the Catholic Church nevertheless condemned heliocentrism as "false and contrary to Scripture" in February 1616,[8] and Galileo was warned to abandon his support for it—which he promised to do. When he later defended his views in his most famous work, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, published in 1632, he was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy," forced to recant, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest.

Book Burning: A True Christian® Tradition
The burning of books is nothing new to True Christians®. We invented the practice over two-thousand years ago as a way to promote our faith in the Lord Jesus. In the early days of Christianity, when new believers in Christ were converted, they were naturally moved by the Holy Spirit to grab as many books as they could and pitch them into a fire. Unlike the sissy "Jesus is Love" fake-Christians (whom both the Lord Jesus and we loathe) we have running around today, the early followers of Christ were never ashamed to burn books. In fact, if you ever find yourself being grateful for the destruction of most of the works of pagan nincompoops like Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, you have a Christian to thank! In the Book of Acts we learn that anyone who wants to follow Jesus, should get ready to start burning books at the drop of a hat. The Book of Acts teaches us that burning someone's books is a great way spread God's word.
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1...okburning.html

That took a one minute search. Apparently to Book of Acts will answer your question!

So the Christian repression of knowledge and science is well recorded and one would need a great deal of imagination to see it any other way. Of course, you'd need that to believe in God, the Immaculate Conception and talking snakes. So y'all can burn all YOUR books and teach YOUR kids that the Magical Man in the Sky made the world in seven days or any other cult you worship, but I don't understand why you need everyone else to pretend with you.

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post #36 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-14-2009, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinsn95 View Post
@ tenacious J

Where I got it from was that retarded chart they love to whip out every time they want to bash what they dislike. I'm sure you have seen it. It clearly shows that christianity is the reason for no less than a loss of 1000 years of technological development. (It's in another thread here, but I have seen it popping up all over)This is completely laughable, and based on no fact whatsoever other than the dark ages. As stated by some of the other members in this thread, they would not have, and in fact could not have, help technology back from advancing, least of all for 1000 years.
I think its clearly visible today, though. There's no need to look in history, when it happens everyday around us.

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post #37 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-14-2009, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by TheAsp! View Post
If you READ the books instead of burning them you would learn:

Wikipedia:

After 1610, when he began supporting heliocentrism publicly, he met with bitter opposition from some philosophers and clerics, and two of the latter eventually denounced him to the Roman Inquisition early in 1615. Although he was cleared of any offence at that time, the Catholic Church nevertheless condemned heliocentrism as "false and contrary to Scripture" in February 1616,[8] and Galileo was warned to abandon his support for it—which he promised to do. When he later defended his views in his most famous work, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, published in 1632, he was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy," forced to recant, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest.
LOL at using Wikipedia, intentionally, as a source for backing up any e-argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theASP!
Book Burning: A True Christian® Tradition
The burning of books is nothing new to True Christians®. We invented the practice over two-thousand years ago as a way to promote our faith in the Lord Jesus. In the early days of Christianity, when new believers in Christ were converted, they were naturally moved by the Holy Spirit to grab as many books as they could and pitch them into a fire. Unlike the sissy "Jesus is Love" fake-Christians (whom both the Lord Jesus and we loathe) we have running around today, the early followers of Christ were never ashamed to burn books. In fact, if you ever find yourself being grateful for the destruction of most of the works of pagan nincompoops like Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, you have a Christian to thank! In the Book of Acts we learn that anyone who wants to follow Jesus, should get ready to start burning books at the drop of a hat. The Book of Acts teaches us that burning someone's books is a great way spread God's word.
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1...okburning.html

That took a one minute search. Apparently to Book of Acts will answer your question!
Apparently it will, if you actually READ (using caps as you so effectively did above) the Book of Acts. When I READ the referenced chapter, I see the Ephesians doing the book burning themselves, voluntarily, by their own hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheASP!
So the Christian repression of knowledge and science is well recorded and one would need a great deal of imagination to see it any other way. Of course, you'd need that to believe in God, the Immaculate Conception and talking snakes. So y'all can burn all YOUR books and teach YOUR kids that the Magical Man in the Sky made the world in seven days or any other cult you worship, but I don't understand why you need everyone else to pretend with you.
So, if Christian repression of knowledge and science is so well recorded, where are YOUR (gotta love those caps) legitimate sources to back up YOUR claim. Certainly not in YOUR post. Also, in case you didn't know this, we Christians don't burn our books.
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post #38 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-15-2009, 12:13 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAsp! View Post
If you READ the books instead of burning them you would learn:

After 1610, when he began supporting heliocentrism publicly, he met with bitter opposition from some philosophers and clerics, and two of the latter eventually denounced him to the Roman Inquisition early in 1615. Although he was cleared of any offence at that time, the Catholic Church nevertheless condemned heliocentrism as "false and contrary to Scripture" in February 1616,[8] and Galileo was warned to abandon his support for it—which he promised to do. When he later defended his views in his most famous work, Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, published in 1632, he was tried by the Inquisition, found "vehemently suspect of heresy," forced to recant, and spent the rest of his life under house arrest.
One guy? Got anyone else? And also, I see that they did not in fact, even kill that one guy. So, he survived, and so did all of the people that he talked to about his ideas. So did he only tell one person, or maybe he told two people? Or maybe he told hundreds of people, who of course are all going to spread it around. Use some common sense here, man. If you hear a very new an interesting idea, are you just never going to talk about it or mention it again in your life? I think not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAsp! View Post
Book Burning: A True Christian® Tradition
The burning of books is nothing new to True Christians®. We invented the practice over two-thousand years ago as a way to promote our faith in the Lord Jesus. In the early days of Christianity, when new believers in Christ were converted, they were naturally moved by the Holy Spirit to grab as many books as they could and pitch them into a fire. Unlike the sissy "Jesus is Love" fake-Christians (whom both the Lord Jesus and we loathe) we have running around today, the early followers of Christ were never ashamed to burn books. In fact, if you ever find yourself being grateful for the destruction of most of the works of pagan nincompoops like Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, you have a Christian to thank! In the Book of Acts we learn that anyone who wants to follow Jesus, should get ready to start burning books at the drop of a hat. The Book of Acts teaches us that burning someone's books is a great way spread God's word.
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1...okburning.html
So they burned all the books back then? None survived? No one ever read any more books? Heck, I'll even do you one better and ask you if all the books that were considered to be "edgy" back then were burned. Impossible. How could they have possibly gotten them all? Even then, as time passed, those books that were banned would be able to resurface. So you can say that the religion stopped 1000 years of technological advancement all you like, but it will never make it true. Or even possible. Only someone who is very weak minded and impressionable could think that people would just be like "Oh well. Fuck that. I never wanted to talk about it any more, anyways. Well, back to the manual labor." Was the pope, or whoever this idiot was that was trying to repress certain ideas, not necessarily any and all technology as your laughable chart claims, always there looking over everyone who lived in that time's shoulder, and listening to whatever they were saying? Now who is the one believing in omnipresence? Again, another impossibility. They could never have stalled out technology back then, even if their life depended on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAsp! View Post
That took a one minute search. Apparently to Book of Acts will answer your question!
So the Christian repression of knowledge and science is well recorded and one would need a great deal of imagination to see it any other way. Of course, you'd need that to believe in God, the Immaculate Conception and talking snakes. So y'all can burn all YOUR books and teach YOUR kids that the Magical Man in the Sky made the world in seven days or any other cult you worship, but I don't understand why you need everyone else to pretend with you.
Calling god a "magical man in the sky" only further proves your pathetic ignorance. If that is your idea of him then yeah, I could see why you might think that some people want you to "pretend with them". Where in the whole religion is god ever referred to as a magical man in the sky? Saying stuff like this only serves to make you look stupid, I'm afraid. Not to mention that I am not trying to get anyone to "pretend with me". If you actually read the OP, I was merely trying to draw attention to the flawed argument made by a bunch of idiots, who as I said have little to no understanding of the way the world works. Thinking that a large group of non-committed people are somehow going to keep this huge secret is the real magic here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 5point0pony View Post
I think its clearly visible today, though. There's no need to look in history, when it happens everyday around us.
Name any instance, and I'll show you where you are wrong. This is the same line of thinking that makes you think that they could somehow repress technology in the old days. Don't say stem cell research, good 'ol england is going at it like crazy.

Last edited by justinsn95; 10-16-2009 at 02:04 AM.
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post #39 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-17-2009, 02:16 AM
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LOL at using Wikipedia, intentionally, as a source for backing up any e-argument.
You have no idea how much I love when people contradict Wikipedia as a source. Please...provide a "better" one.
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post #40 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-17-2009, 02:31 AM
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You have no idea how much I love when people contradict Wikipedia as a source. Please...provide a "better" one.
Contradict isn't the word you're looking for. It starts with a "c" though. Fuck, I can't think of it.

Discount? Nope, that's a "d."


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post #41 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-17-2009, 08:56 AM
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You have no idea how much I love when people contradict Wikipedia as a source. Please...provide a "better" one.
That's up to the person who uses Wikipedia as their "source" to do so. Why would I do their research for them because they are too lazy to do it themselves?
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post #42 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-17-2009, 09:28 AM
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Contradict isn't the word you're looking for. It starts with a "c" though. Fuck, I can't think of it.

Discount? Nope, that's a "d."
"Chastise" or "castigate" would work, although those are rather stuffy words in my opinion. I could have used "castrate" I suppose.....
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post #43 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-24-2009, 12:59 PM
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Exclamation

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Also, in case you didn't know this, we Christians don't burn our books.
Looks like these guys didn't get that memo:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...est=latestnews


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post #44 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-24-2009, 02:16 PM
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Looks like those guys fit the thread title quite well.
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post #45 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-25-2009, 08:37 PM Thread Starter
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Eh, I never really looked at those book burnings as a 100% bad thing. People like to use it as an example of something completely and utterly stupid to do, that no one who had any sense would ever do. Well, kinda, but not to that extent. First of all, are they going to be able to burn all of the copies of the particular book or books that they are buring? No fucking way in hell. There are still going to be shitloads out there in homes, in other countries where the book burnings are not going on, in circulation, etc. So no, the knowledge that they contained is not going to be lost to the world.

Secondly, if I burn a book (or books) that are deemed by me or my society to be worthless or stupid, what's the harm? Maybe we have a bonfire and drink a little beer. We could have a mass book burning of books that retards like Oprah Winfrey or Dr Phil or someone like that wrote, (or take your pic of whoever) and all you guys that are using book burning as an example would join in and sing and laugh and dance around the fire. So in conclusion: Does it make you look kinda stupid? Yeah sure. Is it necessarily a bad thing? Not really. And thus, I write "book burning" off as a bad example.
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post #46 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-25-2009, 08:48 PM
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Eh, I never really looked at those book burnings as a 100% bad thing. People like to use it as an example of something completely and utterly stupid to do, that no one who had any sense would ever do. Well, kinda, but not to that extent. First of all, are they going to be able to burn all of the copies of the particular book or books that they are buring? No fucking way in hell. There are still going to be shitloads out there in homes, in other countries where the book burnings are not going on, in circulation, etc. So no, the knowledge that they contained is not going to be lost to the world.

Secondly, if I burn a book (or books) that are deemed by me or my society to be worthless or stupid, what's the harm? Maybe we have a bonfire and drink a little beer. We could have a mass book burning of books that retards like Oprah Winfrey or Dr Phil or someone like that wrote, (or take your pic of whoever) and all you guys that are using book burning as an example would join in and sing and laugh and dance around the fire. So in conclusion: Does it make you look kinda stupid? Yeah sure. Is it necessarily a bad thing? Not really. And thus, I write "book burning" off as a bad example.
You sir, are an idiot.

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post #47 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-26-2009, 09:00 AM Thread Starter
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And you sir, are one of those sheep I was talking about, who can't read any deeper into a given situation, so they just follow the next sheep. How lame.
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post #48 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-26-2009, 11:14 AM
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It wasn't a statement of fact. I can't prove my point, other than to say 80% of the population belongs to some religion, therefore more technology advances come from people who are believers. That is why I posted this in the Theology forum...
Wow.


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Originally Posted by Bobba Fett View Post
Typical non-believer response.
Atheist: Give me proof, beyond any doubt, that I'm wrong and you're right.
Christian: I can't...
Atheist: Didn't think so. I'm off to push my agenda through the courts and other branches of government, later.
They are not pushing anything. They are wanting to undo the things that religious zealots pushed in the past. Going completely against our constitution on the bases that everyone should think and be coerced to believe in the same thing.

1864, first "In god we trust" on coin.
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fac...we-trust.shtml

1954, "Under god" in the pledge added.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled1.htm


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post #49 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-26-2009, 12:23 PM
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Wow.

They are not pushing anything. They are wanting to undo the things that religious zealots pushed in the past. Going completely against our constitution on the bases that everyone should think and be coerced to believe in the same thing.

1864, first "In god we trust" on coin.
http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fac...we-trust.shtml

1954, "Under god" in the pledge added.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled1.htm
"Wow"

So, President Eisenhower and several Congresses were religious zealots? How has the good old USA gotten by all these decades without historic interpretation by insightful geniuses such as yourself?
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post #50 of 59 (permalink) Old 10-26-2009, 12:54 PM
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Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things... that takes religion.

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