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post #1 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-28-2009, 03:14 PM Thread Starter
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My Issues with Christianity

Many of you know that I attend a Christian University (Baylor). I had to take 6 hours of religion classes, and attend chapel every day freshman year under penalty of repetition. Through these tribulations, I have been pushed further away from Christianity than ever before... but mostly as a result of one single thing... I read through the entire bible.

Nothing will make you question Christianity and its "values" like a read through of the sacred text. It is amazing that people can even call themselves Christians having not studied the very foundations of their religion. Also, being a history major I have taken classes analyzing the effects of Christianity through the ages and how it has grown into what it is today. I have a list of points here that I do with people would comment on, and please, put aside your blind faith and respond cogently.

1. The Jews in Egypt.
No. We have a spectacular record of Egyptian history beginning from its routes as one of the 4 ancient river bed civilizations. We have no record of a man named Moses, a series of plagues, or much less a massive exodus of people to the desert. None. Not a single tangible speck of evidence, and it would seem like this would be significant enough to include in history. Some speculate that this occured under the short lived hyksos period, but there isnt even evidence to back this up.

There is also no evidence of a massive group of people wandering around in the desert. You would think that a group of thousands upon thousands of people in the desert would leave some evidence of their prescence, but nothing has EVER been discovered.

2. God as a loving God.
God killed more people than the devil in the bible. Many, many times more. He not only ordered the Diaspora to raze the city of Jericho and leave no living inhabitants, but also killed a huge portion of the jews. A portion of the people decided to cast a golden calf as an idol, so without hesitation god opened up the ground and killed thousand of people for a single sin. Pretty loving if you ask me.

3. Is god willing to prevent evil?
This is an age old argument. Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? (Epicurus)

4. According to the Catholic church, we are all going to hell ('cept the catholics).
Thats right, the Unam Sanctum issued in 1302 by Bonifice the 8th which is still valid establishes that the Catholic church (the most corrupt organization the earth has ever seen) requires membership to go the heaven. Well fuck, I guess most of the world is destined to burn?

5. Why do we need a "Savior"?
God is all powerful, why cant we just be good unto him and be "saved"? From what I can gather it goes something like this- God says, "Im going to create man and woman with original sin, then I am going to impregnate woman with myself as her child, so that I can be born. Once alive I will kill myself as a sacrifice to myself in order to save you from the sin I originally condemned you to." Doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me.

6. Religion has impeded progress.
Throughout the middle ages/Dark ages, the church dominated the political landscape. Kings constantly were at odds with the Vatican for control and to gain power. Here is a graph of how religion affected technological progress-







7. Picking and choosing.
The old testament (which Christians tend to ignore) tells us a number a things that god wished us to do. We are to stone insubordinate kids, kill those who work on the sabbath, not have long hair (although jesus did?), isolate women on their period, not eat pork, make offers to god via fire, anyone with a "flat nose, or any thing superfluous" must stay away from the altar of God, etc... but thanks to Paul the Apostle, we can ignore all that stuff?? Which segways into my next point-

8. Paul the apostle.
Sure you may know who he is. You may not know that he was a sentry named Saul who killed a ton of Christians. On his way kill or persecute some more, he had a revelation from Jesus Christ himself telling him to convert. He then took it upon himself to restructure Christianity. He wrote the epistles and basically rewrote the entire religion, telling us to ignore the old testament and its rules. Thats right, your beliefs are based on the credibility of some guy who formerly killed Christians. It was Paul and Paul alone who established that only faith in Jesus was enough to ensure salvation, and the Torah was a big chunk of baloney (Jesus NEVER aluded to this, which seems pretty damn significant).


I have many more points I can make, but have grown tired of typing. Maybe a few pics will suffice-














If I have offended you, I apologize, I am just looking for honest responses.
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post #2 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-28-2009, 03:19 PM
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Dude, obviously you haven't heard the song.. God is great, beer is good, and people are CRAZY!!
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post #3 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-28-2009, 03:20 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mstng86 View Post
Dude, obviously you haven't heard the song.. God is great, beer is good, and people are CRAZY!!
I have not. But I am sure you did not read my post either before responding.
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post #4 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-28-2009, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by DOHCTR View Post
I have not. But I am sure you did not read my post either before responding.
I did read alot but not all. One thing, I DO agree, religion has created barriers for us as a race to expand our knowledge and technology. I do find it odd that pastors skip around to whatever they want to talk about, possibly taking many things out of context. But I did not go to church very long, maybe I am not brainwashed to a degree.

Like I said, people are CRAZY. They will go along with almost anything as long as it offers hope and salvation. That being said, they will do anything to further their existence.

It all stems with fear of death. And honestly, I don't blame them. Death is scary.
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post #5 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-28-2009, 03:41 PM
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It's not the religion, it's the followers...well, the leaders. I'm sure there are plenty of christians out there that are for technological advances, etc. It's just the ones in power, the traditionalists, the extreme that try and put fear into the hearts of the others.

Traditionalists are always initially afraid of the new. Science has made their lives so much easier and has allowed them to spread their word of God all over the world without leaving their multi-million dollar super churches, it's allowed their followers to electronically transfer funds to causes that they can't follow up on, and a number of other things, but when science starts doing things that doesn't benefit the church, it's regarded as evil.

I don't get it.
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post #6 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-28-2009, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by DOHCTR View Post
Many of you know that I attend a Christian University (Baylor). I had to take 6 hours of religion classes, and attend chapel every day freshman year under penalty of repetition. Through these tribulations, I have been pushed further away from Christianity than ever before... but mostly as a result of one single thing... I read through the entire bible.

Nothing will make you question Christianity and its "values" like a read through of the sacred text. It is amazing that people can even call themselves Christians having not studied the very foundations of their religion. Also, being a history major I have taken classes analyzing the effects of Christianity through the ages and how it has grown into what it is today. I have a list of points here that I do with people would comment on, and please, put aside your blind faith and respond cogently.

1. The Jews in Egypt.
No. We have a spectacular record of Egyptian history beginning from its routes as one of the 4 ancient river bed civilizations. We have no record of a man named Moses, a series of plagues, or much less a massive exodus of people to the desert. None. Not a single tangible speck of evidence, and it would seem like this would be significant enough to include in history. Some speculate that this occured under the short lived hyksos period, but there isnt even evidence to back this up.

There is also no evidence of a massive group of people wandering around in the desert. You would think that a group of thousands upon thousands of people in the desert would leave some evidence of their prescence, but nothing has EVER been discovered.

2. God as a loving God.
God killed more people than the devil in the bible. Many, many times more. He not only ordered the Diaspora to raze the city of Jericho and leave no living inhabitants, but also killed a huge portion of the jews. A portion of the people decided to cast a golden calf as an idol, so without hesitation god opened up the ground and killed thousand of people for a single sin. Pretty loving if you ask me.

3. Is god willing to prevent evil?
This is an age old argument. Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? (Epicurus)

4. According to the Catholic church, we are all going to hell ('cept the catholics).
Thats right, the Unam Sanctum issued in 1302 by Bonifice the 8th which is still valid establishes that the Catholic church (the most corrupt organization the earth has ever seen) requires membership to go the heaven. Well fuck, I guess most of the world is destined to burn?

5. Why do we need a "Savior"?
God is all powerful, why cant we just be good unto him and be "saved"? From what I can gather it goes something like this- God says, "Im going to create man and woman with original sin, then I am going to impregnate woman with myself as her child, so that I can be born. Once alive I will kill myself as a sacrifice to myself in order to save you from the sin I originally condemned you to." Doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me.

6. Religion has impeded progress.
Throughout the middle ages/Dark ages, the church dominated the political landscape. Kings constantly were at odds with the Vatican for control and to gain power. Here is a graph of how religion affected technological progress-







7. Picking and choosing.
The old testament (which Christians tend to ignore) tells us a number a things that god wished us to do. We are to stone insubordinate kids, kill those who work on the sabbath, not have long hair (although jesus did?), isolate women on their period, not eat pork, make offers to god via fire, anyone with a "flat nose, or any thing superfluous" must stay away from the altar of God, etc... but thanks to Paul the Apostle, we can ignore all that stuff?? Which segways into my next point-

8. Paul the apostle.
Sure you may know who he is. You may not know that he was a sentry named Saul who killed a ton of Christians. On his way kill or persecute some more, he had a revelation from Jesus Christ himself telling him to convert. He then took it upon himself to restructure Christianity. He wrote the epistles and basically rewrote the entire religion, telling us to ignore the old testament and its rules. Thats right, your beliefs are based on the credibility of some guy who formerly killed Christians. It was Paul and Paul alone who established that only faith in Jesus was enough to ensure salvation, and the Torah was a big chunk of baloney (Jesus NEVER aluded to this, which seems pretty damn significant).


I have many more points I can make, but have grown tired of typing. Maybe a few pics will suffice-














If I have offended you, I apologize, I am just looking for honest responses.

This has got to be the most educated and well thought out post I have read in this section. Here come the non-judgmental Christians to tell you that you're going to hell!

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Originally Posted by Sean88gt
Meh...I dunno why she likes it. It's like she put it on a pedestal because it is the gravy of life.
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post #7 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-28-2009, 06:42 PM
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Good points.

































You're going to hell.

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post #8 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-28-2009, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DOHCTR
1. The Jews in Egypt.
No. We have a spectacular record of Egyptian history beginning from its routes as one of the 4 ancient river bed civilizations. We have no record of a man named Moses, a series of plagues, or much less a massive exodus of people to the desert. None. Not a single tangible speck of evidence, and it would seem like this would be significant enough to include in history. Some speculate that this occured under the short lived hyksos period, but there isnt even evidence to back this up.

There is also no evidence of a massive group of people wandering around in the desert. You would think that a group of thousands upon thousands of people in the desert would leave some evidence of their prescence, but nothing has EVER been discovered.
I didn't read the whole post by the O.P., and skipped over the little pics entirely, as I typically do in all threads on this site, so don't be offended by that.

For point 1, the Egyptians at the time of the Exodus recorded only that part of history which cast their society and their Pharoah in a positive light. This is in contrast to the Jews, who recorded all of theirs, both the good and the bad. As such, could you expect Egyptian history to include such an obvious affront to their culture? Me, I prefer to take my history lessons in unedited fashion, i.e in Jewish fashion.
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post #9 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-28-2009, 07:05 PM
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good points.

































You're going to hell.
lmao!
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post #10 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-28-2009, 07:17 PM
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lmao!
^^^^^Hey O.P., among some populations this might be considered a "cogent" response LOL
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post #11 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-28-2009, 08:51 PM
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haha
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post #12 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 01:20 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk View Post
I didn't read the whole post by the O.P., and skipped over the little pics entirely, as I typically do in all threads on this site, so don't be offended by that.

For point 1, the Egyptians at the time of the Exodus recorded only that part of history which cast their society and their Pharoah in a positive light. This is in contrast to the Jews, who recorded all of theirs, both the good and the bad. As such, could you expect Egyptian history to include such an obvious affront to their culture? Me, I prefer to take my history lessons in unedited fashion, i.e in Jewish fashion.
Not true. We have records of Hatshepsut, which the Egyptians tried their damndest to conceal. A small group of people rebelling would have made it into records with less difficulty than a 'gasp' female pharaoh.

Yes I can expect the history to include such things. One Pharaoh even tried to rewrite history and change it to his wims but failed miserably. Like I said, we have damn good records of ancient Egypt. Mesopotamian records mirror ancient egypt texts as well.
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post #13 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 02:25 AM
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Very good write up. We share some of the same thought processes when it comes to this.

I myself am a "loose" believer.

Do I believe there is a being more advanced than our own out there? Yes

That by comparison to human technology, evolution, and intelligence, could be interpreted by our limited understanding as a "God" like figure? Possibly

Do I believe that if the first two assumptions posed indeed turn out to be correct, do I believe such an advanced being could seriously give us the time of day? No, as this would be analagous to a child with an ant farm and a magnifying glass.

I grew up with religion, and the more I think about it, the more that belief seems to elude me.

I study social tools such as human behavior,poltical science, philosophy, psychology, and sales techniques. I always look for the reasons behind actions rather than the actions themselves.
I cannot honestly see any religion in the world being accurate given the dillution of the centuries,
the (mis)interpretation of the original lessons,
the fact that the original lessons may not even exist.
The bias of the teachers of the religions over time,
the revisionist habit that we use to distort things to advantage, whether consciously or subconsciously.
The influence of outside opinions from notable people. Dante, Pope Sylvester I, Constantine etc.
The fact that the new testament itself was made by a committee of people, not deities.

I can go on forever, but I'm tired, and my spelling is beginning to be attrocious.

Last edited by sc281_99-0135; 08-29-2009 at 02:53 AM.
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post #14 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by DOHCTR View Post
Not true. We have records of Hatshepsut, which the Egyptians tried their damndest to conceal. A small group of people rebelling would have made it into records with less difficulty than a 'gasp' female pharaoh.

Yes I can expect the history to include such things. One Pharaoh even tried to rewrite history and change it to his wims but failed miserably. Like I said, we have damn good records of ancient Egypt. Mesopotamian records mirror ancient egypt texts as well.
You're taking those records on faith, just like I take Biblical records on faith.
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post #15 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 08:01 AM
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One of the best posts I have ever read in here, congrats and thanks DOHCTR!!
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post #16 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by CAD424 View Post
This has got to be the most educated and well thought out post I have read in this section. Here come the non-judgmental Christians to tell you that you're going to hell!
blah blah blah you aregoing to hell blah blah blah
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post #17 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by CAD424 View Post
This has got to be the most educated and well thought out post I have read in this section. Here come the non-judgmental Christians to tell you that you're going to hell!
Did you have to quote the entire OP?
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post #18 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 11:37 AM
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I particulary like the "cogent" replies the O.P. mentioned.

"haha" and "lmao" are among the best, shows off the typical intelligence I expected.
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post #19 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 12:32 PM
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Nothing will make an athiest/agnostic out of a kid raised in a Christian home quicker than a Religion class at Baylor University. I don't speak from experience or anything.

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post #20 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by DOHCTR View Post
Many of you know that I attend a Christian University (Baylor). I had to take 6 hours of religion classes, and attend chapel every day freshman year under penalty of repetition. Through these tribulations, I have been pushed further away from Christianity than ever before... but mostly as a result of one single thing... I read through the entire bible.

Nothing will make you question Christianity and its "values" like a read through of the sacred text. It is amazing that people can even call themselves Christians having not studied the very foundations of their religion. Also, being a history major I have taken classes analyzing the effects of Christianity through the ages and how it has grown into what it is today. I have a list of points here that I do with people would comment on, and please, put aside your blind faith and respond cogently.

1. The Jews in Egypt.
No. We have a spectacular record of Egyptian history beginning from its routes as one of the 4 ancient river bed civilizations. We have no record of a man named Moses, a series of plagues, or much less a massive exodus of people to the desert. None. Not a single tangible speck of evidence, and it would seem like this would be significant enough to include in history. Some speculate that this occured under the short lived hyksos period, but there isnt even evidence to back this up.

There is also no evidence of a massive group of people wandering around in the desert. You would think that a group of thousands upon thousands of people in the desert would leave some evidence of their prescence, but nothing has EVER been discovered.

2. God as a loving God.
God killed more people than the devil in the bible. Many, many times more. He not only ordered the Diaspora to raze the city of Jericho and leave no living inhabitants, but also killed a huge portion of the jews. A portion of the people decided to cast a golden calf as an idol, so without hesitation god opened up the ground and killed thousand of people for a single sin. Pretty loving if you ask me.

3. Is god willing to prevent evil?
This is an age old argument. Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? (Epicurus)

4. According to the Catholic church, we are all going to hell ('cept the catholics).
Thats right, the Unam Sanctum issued in 1302 by Bonifice the 8th which is still valid establishes that the Catholic church (the most corrupt organization the earth has ever seen) requires membership to go the heaven. Well fuck, I guess most of the world is destined to burn?

5. Why do we need a "Savior"?
God is all powerful, why cant we just be good unto him and be "saved"? From what I can gather it goes something like this- God says, "Im going to create man and woman with original sin, then I am going to impregnate woman with myself as her child, so that I can be born. Once alive I will kill myself as a sacrifice to myself in order to save you from the sin I originally condemned you to." Doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me.

6. Religion has impeded progress.
Throughout the middle ages/Dark ages, the church dominated the political landscape. Kings constantly were at odds with the Vatican for control and to gain power. Here is a graph of how religion affected technological progress-




7. Picking and choosing.
The old testament (which Christians tend to ignore) tells us a number a things that god wished us to do. We are to stone insubordinate kids, kill those who work on the sabbath, not have long hair (although jesus did?), isolate women on their period, not eat pork, make offers to god via fire, anyone with a "flat nose, or any thing superfluous" must stay away from the altar of God, etc... but thanks to Paul the Apostle, we can ignore all that stuff?? Which segways into my next point-

8. Paul the apostle.
Sure you may know who he is. You may not know that he was a sentry named Saul who killed a ton of Christians. On his way kill or persecute some more, he had a revelation from Jesus Christ himself telling him to convert. He then took it upon himself to restructure Christianity. He wrote the epistles and basically rewrote the entire religion, telling us to ignore the old testament and its rules. Thats right, your beliefs are based on the credibility of some guy who formerly killed Christians. It was Paul and Paul alone who established that only faith in Jesus was enough to ensure salvation, and the Torah was a big chunk of baloney (Jesus NEVER aluded to this, which seems pretty damn significant).


I have many more points I can make, but have grown tired of typing. Maybe a few pics will suffice-


If I have offended you, I apologize, I am just looking for honest responses.

i feel the same way. my stepfather/ step grandfather were both pastors and i was made to read the bible every night when i was in high school. i had it all read by the time i was a junior. i get so pissed at those types of christians who argue with me and regurgitate what they have heard in church with out the knowledge of the bible to at least back up what they are saying. good, post by the way. you articulated your point very well.

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post #21 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 01:46 PM
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Since quoting your entire post seems to be the norm in this thread, I too will oblige.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DOHCTR View Post
Many of you know that I attend a Christian University (Baylor). I had to take 6 hours of religion classes, and attend chapel every day freshman year under penalty of repetition. Through these tribulations, I have been pushed further away from Christianity than ever before... but mostly as a result of one single thing... I read through the entire bible.

Nothing will make you question Christianity and its "values" like a read through of the sacred text. It is amazing that people can even call themselves Christians having not studied the very foundations of their religion. Also, being a history major I have taken classes analyzing the effects of Christianity through the ages and how it has grown into what it is today. I have a list of points here that I do with people would comment on, and please, put aside your blind faith and respond cogently.

1. The Jews in Egypt.
No. We have a spectacular record of Egyptian history beginning from its routes as one of the 4 ancient river bed civilizations. We have no record of a man named Moses, a series of plagues, or much less a massive exodus of people to the desert. None. Not a single tangible speck of evidence, and it would seem like this would be significant enough to include in history. Some speculate that this occured under the short lived hyksos period, but there isnt even evidence to back this up.

There is also no evidence of a massive group of people wandering around in the desert. You would think that a group of thousands upon thousands of people in the desert would leave some evidence of their prescence, but nothing has EVER been discovered.

2. God as a loving God.
God killed more people than the devil in the bible. Many, many times more. He not only ordered the Diaspora to raze the city of Jericho and leave no living inhabitants, but also killed a huge portion of the jews. A portion of the people decided to cast a golden calf as an idol, so without hesitation god opened up the ground and killed thousand of people for a single sin. Pretty loving if you ask me.

3. Is god willing to prevent evil?
This is an age old argument. Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? (Epicurus)

4. According to the Catholic church, we are all going to hell ('cept the catholics).
Thats right, the Unam Sanctum issued in 1302 by Bonifice the 8th which is still valid establishes that the Catholic church (the most corrupt organization the earth has ever seen) requires membership to go the heaven. Well fuck, I guess most of the world is destined to burn?

5. Why do we need a "Savior"?
God is all powerful, why cant we just be good unto him and be "saved"? From what I can gather it goes something like this- God says, "Im going to create man and woman with original sin, then I am going to impregnate woman with myself as her child, so that I can be born. Once alive I will kill myself as a sacrifice to myself in order to save you from the sin I originally condemned you to." Doesnt make a whole lot of sense to me.

6. Religion has impeded progress.
Throughout the middle ages/Dark ages, the church dominated the political landscape. Kings constantly were at odds with the Vatican for control and to gain power. Here is a graph of how religion affected technological progress-







7. Picking and choosing.
The old testament (which Christians tend to ignore) tells us a number a things that god wished us to do. We are to stone insubordinate kids, kill those who work on the sabbath, not have long hair (although jesus did?), isolate women on their period, not eat pork, make offers to god via fire, anyone with a "flat nose, or any thing superfluous" must stay away from the altar of God, etc... but thanks to Paul the Apostle, we can ignore all that stuff?? Which segways into my next point-

8. Paul the apostle.
Sure you may know who he is. You may not know that he was a sentry named Saul who killed a ton of Christians. On his way kill or persecute some more, he had a revelation from Jesus Christ himself telling him to convert. He then took it upon himself to restructure Christianity. He wrote the epistles and basically rewrote the entire religion, telling us to ignore the old testament and its rules. Thats right, your beliefs are based on the credibility of some guy who formerly killed Christians. It was Paul and Paul alone who established that only faith in Jesus was enough to ensure salvation, and the Torah was a big chunk of baloney (Jesus NEVER aluded to this, which seems pretty damn significant).


I have many more points I can make, but have grown tired of typing. Maybe a few pics will suffice-
















If I have offended you, I apologize, I am just looking for honest responses.
For point 8, you are completely wrong.

To wit: He (Paul) wrote the epistles and basically rewrote the entire religion, telling us to ignore the old testament and its rules.

My response: Romans (as in Paul's Letter to the Romans) 3:31 KJV
"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

And, as spoken by Jesus Himself in Matthew 5:17 KJV
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
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post #22 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 02:09 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk View Post
Since quoting your entire post seems to be the norm in this thread, I too will oblige.



For point 8, you are completely wrong.

To wit: He (Paul) wrote the epistles and basically rewrote the entire religion, telling us to ignore the old testament and its rules.

My response: Romans (as in Paul's Letter to the Romans) 3:31 KJV
"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

And, as spoken by Jesus Himself in Matthew 5:17 KJV
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
I appreciate your response, and please note that I am not trying to force my beliefs on anyone. Just posting my point of view and opinions for others with an interest in theology and religion (yes, while not a religious man I do very much appreciate studying it and its affects on global events) to analyze.

And in my opinion, Paul did often overstep his bounds by making assumptions and statements often with little precedent. Surly even the most godly man will admit that Paul was among the most influential figures in Christian history.

Also it seems like you proved my point with your post?
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post #23 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 02:13 PM
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I appreciate your response, and please note that I am not trying to force my beliefs on anyone. Just posting my point of view and opinions for others with an interest in theology and religion (yes, while not a religious man I do very much appreciate studying it and its affects on global events) to analyze.

And in my opinion, Paul did often overstep his bounds by making assumptions and statements often with little precedent. Surly even the most godly man will admit that Paul was among the most influential figures in Christian history.

Also it seems like you proved my point with your post?
dude, you're gunna burn, stop wasting this life posting here
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post #24 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 02:29 PM
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I appreciate your response, and please note that I am not trying to force my beliefs on anyone. Just posting my point of view and opinions for others with an interest in theology and religion (yes, while not a religious man I do very much appreciate studying it and its affects on global events) to analyze.

And in my opinion, Paul did often overstep his bounds by making assumptions and statements often with little precedent. Surly even the most godly man will admit that Paul was among the most influential figures in Christian history.

Also it seems like you proved my point with your post?
No, by Scriptural reference to Romans 3:31, I refuted the point you made about Paul when you posted "He (Paul) wrote the epistles and basically rewrote the entire religion, telling us to ignore the old testament and its rules." Paul tells us quite clearly in that verse that the Law of Torah is not voided, as did Jesus in Matthew 5:17.

I agree completely that Paul was among the most influential men in Christian history, by virtue of his spreading the Word of Jesus to the gentiles.
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post #25 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 02:40 PM Thread Starter
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No, by Scriptural reference to Romans 3:31, I refuted the point you made about Paul when you posted "He (Paul) wrote the epistles and basically rewrote the entire religion, telling us to ignore the old testament and its rules." Paul tells us quite clearly in that verse that the Law of Torah is not voided, as did Jesus in Matthew 5:17.

I agree completely that Paul was among the most influential men in Christian history, by virtue of his spreading the Word of Jesus to the gentiles.
Then do tell, why are the rules of the Torah ignored by virtually all modern churches (including the Catholic church)?
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post #26 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 02:54 PM
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Over five thousand years ago, Moses said to the children of Israel, "Pick up your shovel, mount your asses and camels, and I will lead you to the Promised Land." Nearly 75 years ago, Roosevelt said,"Lay down your shovels, sit on your asses, and light up a camel, this is the Promised Land." Now Obama has stolen your shovel..., taxed your asses, raised the price of camels and mortgaged the Promised Land!
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post #27 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 03:02 PM
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Then do tell, why are the rules of the Torah ignored by virtually all modern churches (including the Catholic church)?
Jesus fulfilled the Law of Torah on our behalf.
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post #28 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-29-2009, 11:09 PM
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Then do tell, why are the rules of the Torah ignored by virtually all modern churches (including the Catholic church)?
I actually respect the catholic church more than most protestant forms of Christianity. They seem to be the only ones that will call other Christians out on their bullshit.

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post #29 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-30-2009, 07:16 AM
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I am not Catholic, and my qustion to those who are concerns the Pope. Is the leader of the Catholic Church believed by Catholics to be ordained by God Himself, in the manner that kings from centuries past believed their authority to rule was bestowed upon them by God Himself?
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post #30 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-30-2009, 09:49 AM Thread Starter
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I am not Catholic, and my qustion to those who are concerns the Pope. Is the leader of the Catholic Church believed by Catholics to be ordained by God Himself, in the manner that kings from centuries past believed their authority to rule was bestowed upon them by God Himself?
Yes.

The lord said to peter, "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18)

Catholics believed that this established the position of the bishop of rome and that Peter was the first "pope" ordained by divinity. He also we supposedly given the keys to heaven by Jesus.
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post #31 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-30-2009, 10:00 AM Thread Starter
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I actually respect the catholic church more than most protestant forms of Christianity. They seem to be the only ones that will call other Christians out on their bullshit.

"No, that is not Jesus' face in your toast."
They also only officially recognized that the earth was round in 1962.

They told people they were going to heaven by building st peters basilica.

They sold indulgences for centuries (buy this and youll go to heaven!)

They killed you for not agreeing with them.

They have split into 2 different papacies (see avignon papacy).

I can go on.
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post #32 of 61 (permalink) Old 08-30-2009, 03:11 PM
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It appears that most of your objections come from a shallow understanding of the person of God, the nature of man, and the teaching of Scriptures.

1. Israelites in Egypt, just do a Google search.
http://www.bibleandscience.com/archaeology/exodus.htm

2. So your view of how God should display love is different than what is described in the Bible. Therefore the Bible is wrong. Have you ever thought that your view of God is wrong?

3. Have you considered that God has a purpose for evil? (see Genesis 50:20)

4. Most of the world is destined to burn, but salvation is promised to those that believe upon the Lord Jesus. (see Matthew 7:13)

5. We need a Savior because our good works are like filthy rags in God's sight and we are unable to save ourselves. God gets the glory in the salvation of the undeserving.

6. You are arguing that pragmatism somehow determines truth. Why so?

7. In the context of the Old Testament, who were those commands given to?

8. You are mistaken and need to reread the Gospels. John 6:40 Jesus speaking

"For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
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post #33 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-02-2009, 08:14 AM
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Imagine thousands of years of this mixed with language translations. We as human beings can't even get a story right in our own times, but yet the bible is supposed to be the most accurate book ever.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090902/...le_translation
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post #34 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-02-2009, 08:53 AM
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Great post.
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post #35 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-02-2009, 09:34 AM
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I love this post... and the illustrations are great! Right click, save as.

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post #36 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-02-2009, 04:09 PM
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Imagine thousands of years of this mixed with language translations. We as human beings can't even get a story right in our own times, but yet the bible is supposed to be the most accurate book ever.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090902/...le_translation
The bible in its current as it appears in the KJV form was already considered scripture by the 2nd century. Meaning it had been in circulation already.

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post #37 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-03-2009, 10:10 PM
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I think it is comical that anyone who takes God seriously would even respond to this post.
Why not start out a discussion with an attempt to really understand faith and not spit in the face of those who do understand it?
I don't think I know but a few of the answers you need. Even then, your statements already make it a waste of my time to thoughtfully respond.
The pictures are basically just icing on the cake. They are funny. Funny that you think they mean something more than humor.

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post #38 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 08:45 PM
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Good post, until the cartoons. If you want real answers to your well thought out points and questions why insult those you want answers from? It takes your stance from neutral to bitter. If your mind is open to change you can see truth but if you're already cold to it why would we bother to answer?

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post #39 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 12:49 AM
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The pictures are basically just icing on the cake. They are funny. Funny that you think they mean something more than humor.
I think it's funny that with basically every religious thread in this forum if the thread starter is not a christian, the christians play victim, and if the thread starter IS a christian, the non-christians play victim.

I'm done asking people for answers. If God exists, and really wants me to believe then I'm sure proof will be provided through means outside of a church or the DFWStangs theology forum.

I personally think that the pictures are pretty damned funny.
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post #40 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 03:00 PM
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I think it's funny that with basically every religious thread in this forum if the thread starter is not a christian, the christians play victim, and if the thread starter IS a christian, the non-christians play victim.

I'm done asking people for answers. If God exists, and really wants me to believe then I'm sure proof will be provided through means outside of a church or the DFWStangs theology forum.

I personally think that the pictures are pretty damned funny.
Most non-Christians, or we shoiuld more correctly say non-believers, that start threads in here seem obsessed with religion. This seems paradoxical if such OP's are in fact non-believers.

The pictures posted by the OP in this thread are simply cartoons, no more or less funny than any other comic strip fare.
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post #41 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 04:04 PM
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Mr Gambini, that was a well thought out, educated, interpreted objection,,,,OVERRULED!

Science and religion should not be compared, not everything in this world can be proved. Majority science is unsubstantiated theories with no actual proof of their occurrences.
Religion is a belief based on faith. Like the Catholics, Islam says that infidels; all other religions will not go to heaven. Islam speaks of Jesus Christ not as the savior as Christians but only as a profit. With that said which religion is correct? Does it really matter? As long as you have the faith in what you believe in, who cares whether is can be proved or not.
The early testament speaks of old world and what was fitting for that time period. Civilizations changed and all must adapt to the change. The new testament came about through the modernization of man and the world. Until that change mankind was basically stagnate. The laws and models we had just a hundred years ago would not work today. The modern world is now changing at a faster rate than ever and who's not to say that there may be a third testament in the future?





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post #42 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-15-2009, 01:17 PM
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Mr Gambini, that was a well thought out, educated, interpreted objection,,,,OVERRULED!

Science and religion should not be compared, not everything in this world can be proved. Majority science is unsubstantiated theories with no actual proof of their occurrences.
That's the great thing about science though. Theories are proven wrong when results can't be reproduced on a consistent basis. With most of the sciences going on now, based on the theory we can predict what will happen. Making it fact. Also, I don't know why the existence of science has to mean that religion isn't real. Religion definitely does it's part in some people's lives. I say let the believers believe, and hopefully they'll let science do it's part.

Unfortunately, that will never happen. People will always want to be right and will complain when others don't see it the exact same way that they do.
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post #43 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-15-2009, 01:58 PM
lol, this place sucks now
 
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nice post

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post #44 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-15-2009, 08:31 PM
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The modern world is now changing at a faster rate than ever and who's not to say that there may be a third testament in the future?
Such a "third testament" is already foretold in the New Testament, i.e. the Second Coming.
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post #45 of 61 (permalink) Old 09-20-2009, 02:41 AM
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Nice post im tired now! haha

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post #46 of 61 (permalink) Old 10-01-2009, 05:27 PM
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You're taking those records on faith, just like I take Biblical records on faith.
This. And this too, underneath it.



2. God as a loving God.
God killed more people than the devil in the bible. Many, many times more. He not only ordered the Diaspora to raze the city of Jericho and leave no living inhabitants, but also killed a huge portion of the jews. A portion of the people decided to cast a golden calf as an idol, so without hesitation god opened up the ground and killed thousand of people for a single sin. Pretty loving if you ask me.

3. Is god willing to prevent evil?
This is an age old argument. Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? (Epicurus)


My response to #2: The people are all his people. In all likelihood, god views death completely differently than any human being does. So you really can even speculate on this, let alone ever form an opinion.

Now# 3 is pretty easy: It's a flawed statement/argument. Look at it this way: If he is indeed who he says he is, then he will always, without fail or exception, do the right thing. Right? So instead of "preventing evil" or maybe that he is just "not willing" he let's everyone, and I mean everyone, (even his highest angels) make their own choice. Even if it's the wrong one. And yes, even if it hurts someone else. This is what I believe judgement day is sort of for. To point out to you, with irrefutable proof, that you were wrong. Whoever you may have been. And this will, of course, force you to admit it. You and I both know that there are people out there, that are wrong about things, that will never admit it. And no I am not talking about religion. I am talking about anything. What if they had to admit it and come to terms with it? Would they change? Would they apologize? This world at least, would be a totally different place if everyone had to admit it and change every time they knew they were wrong. People don't want to, that's the problem. And it's probly what originally inspired the flawed argument, that is #3. "Why won't he banish all evil from the world and make it happy fairy magic land?" Cause if he did, you wouldn't learn anything.

Last edited by justinsn95; 10-02-2009 at 05:01 PM.
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post #47 of 61 (permalink) Old 10-21-2009, 11:46 AM
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Many of you know that I attend a Christian University (Baylor). I had to take 6 hours of religion classes, and attend chapel every day freshman year under penalty of repetition. Through these tribulations, I have been pushed further away from Christianity than ever before... but mostly as a result of one single thing... I read through the entire bible.

Nothing will make you question Christianity and its "values" like a read through of the sacred text. It is amazing that people can even call themselves Christians having not studied the very foundations of their religion. Also, being a history major I have taken classes analyzing the effects of Christianity through the ages and how it has grown into what it is today. I have a list of points here that I do with people would comment on, and please, put aside your blind faith and respond cogently.

1. The Jews in Egypt.
No. We have a spectacular record of Egyptian history With that statement you give great credence to those records - records written by "men". Yes, they are great and plentiful, with tons of artifacts to validate what was written. Could there have been facts "not written"? If so, did these "men" have reason for not archiving these alleged records?beginning from its routes as one of the 4 ancient river bed civilizations. We have no record of a man named Moses, a series of plagues, or much less a massive exodus of people to the desert. None. Not a single tangible speck of evidence, and it would seem like this would be significant enough to include in history. Some speculate that this occurred under the short lived hyksos period, but there isnt even evidence to back this up. The Hyksos period was, for the most part, in turmoil. Tension between two ruling families aided in this turmoil. If this "exodus" did occur during the Hyksos period, the records may have been destroyed, depending upon who kept them, and who seceded as ruling dynasty toward the end of the 15th dynasty. Of course, this is just one possibility.

There is also no evidence of a massive group of people wandering around in the desert. You would think that a group of thousands upon thousands of people in the desert would leave some evidence of their presence, but nothing has EVER been discovered. Because it "hasn't been discovered" yet, doesn't mean that it didn't happen.

2. God as a loving God.
God killed more people than the devil in the bible. Many, many times more. He not only ordered the Diaspora to raze the city of Jericho and leave no living inhabitants, but also killed a huge portion of the jews. A portion of the people decided to cast a golden calf as an idol, so without hesitation god opened up the ground and killed thousand of people for a single sin. Pretty loving if you ask me.
God punished the evil, as He said He would do.

3. Is god willing to prevent evil?
This is an age old argument. Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? (Epicurus)By this statement, Epicurus pretends to know God's reason for what He does. He (Epicurus) judges God from God's actions, and does so with simple human logic applied. I've said this before, and will repeat again here - God created "Life", and in this life, He created a balance of everything. Happiness/sadness, light/dark and good/evil etc... In those things, man has free will and can choose [for the most part] what path he/she takes. Good things happen to bad people, bad things happen to good people and so on.

4. According to the Catholic church, we are all going to hell ('cept the catholics).As a practicing Catholic, I don't hear this being preached anymore, but that doesn't make it null & void either. One of the biggest problems with Catholicism is the ages it takes to change (or nullify) old, outdated, and sometimes just ridiculous doctrines that were mandated back in the dark ages. I would also be hard pressed to believe that the Pope would openly validate the Unam Sanctam bulle as still being Catholic law (at least I pray that wouldn't be the case).
Thats right, the Unam Sanctum issued in 1302 by Bonifice the 8th which is still valid establishes that the Catholic church (the most corrupt organization the earth has ever seen)Do you really believe that the Catholic Church was/is more corrupt than than the Third Reich, Stalin's reign of rule, or even our current system of government? And no, I'm not confusing corruption with evil. I'm pretty sure you are implying the latter. requires membership to go the heaven. Well fuck, I guess most of the world is destined to burn?

5. Why do we need a "Savior"?
God is all powerful, why cant we just be good unto him and be "saved"?Personally? My belief is, we can (be saved). It's up to Jesus who is ultimately saved, but we "need a savior" because we are sinners.

From what I can gather it goes something like this- God says, "Im going to create man and woman with original sin, then I am going to impregnate woman with myself as her child, so that I can be born. Once alive I will kill myself as a sacrifice to myself in order to save you from the sin I originally condemned you to."That's a very simplistic way of viewing the scripture you are referring to. Also, Jesus didn't "kill Himself". He sacrificed His life for our sins, and did so while preaching the Gospel. The Romans are the ones who crucified Him. Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

6. Religion has impeded progress.
Throughout the middle ages/Dark ages, the church dominated the political landscape. Kings constantly were at odds with the Vatican for control and to gain power. I have no argument what-so-ever here.Here is a graph of how religion affected technological progress-



7. Picking and choosing.
The old testament (which Christians tend to ignore) tells us a number a things that god wished us to do. We are to stone insubordinate kids, kill those who work on the sabbath, not have long hair (although jesus did?), isolate women on their period, not eat pork, make offers to god via fire, anyone with a "flat nose, or any thing superfluous" must stay away from the altar of God, etc... but thanks to Paul the Apostle, we can ignore all that stuff?? Which segways into my next point-

8. Paul the apostle.
Sure you may know who he is. You may not know that he was a sentry named Saul who killed a ton of Christians. On his way kill or persecute some more, he had a revelation from Jesus Christ himself telling him to convert. He then took it upon himself to restructure Christianity. He wrote the epistles and basically rewrote the entire religion, telling us to ignore the old testament and its rules. Thats right, your beliefs are based on the credibility of some guy who formerly killed Christians. It was Paul and Paul alone who established that only faith in Jesus was enough to ensure salvation, and the Torah was a big chunk of baloney (Jesus NEVER aluded to this, which seems pretty damn significant).
As for 7 & 8, I'll refrain from making counter points for these reasons. 1) You have some good arguments/questions. 2) Probably my biggest issue with Christianity is the Bible. Reasonable men can read it and come back with totally different interpretations! We are human, and that's "OK", but the Bible was written back when humans, and life in general, could not be more different. I believe that God's intension's for the Bible were to be used as a guide for human life through spirituality and belief in Jesus Christ as our savior, and if God were to have men pen it now, it would read much different, and "catered" to people of today.

I have many more points I can make, but have grown tired of typing. Maybe a few pics will suffice-





If I have offended you, I apologize, I am just looking for honest responses.
My thoughts in blue. But bear in mind, these are just my thoughts. I don't pretend to be an expert by any means.


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post #48 of 61 (permalink) Old 10-21-2009, 06:04 PM
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Egyptians built the pyramids in 20 years using hand tools, including material transport, communications, and basic supplies. Man has been practicing brain surgery for millenia. Don't sell pre-20th century civilizations short. Or more bluntly, don't think of yourself as superior. Technology evolves.

The rest of your cartoons were mean spirited and diminished the replies you're going to get. Why would someone reply if your post belittles them from the outset? Tim's cartoon was great.



And from your post, it's obvious you feel like you can live your whole life without any input or advice from Christ or his followers, so since you already know everything, happy trails...
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post #49 of 61 (permalink) Old 10-21-2009, 09:15 PM
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Egyptians built the pyramids in 20 years using hand tools, including material transport, communications, and basic supplies.
Prove it...

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post #50 of 61 (permalink) Old 10-22-2009, 07:02 AM
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Prove it...
It's a well argued point on both sides but there is more proof that it happened just the way Danny said, than otherwise.

Now, if you're going to play the alien card, I'm sure there's a thread out there somewhere for that.


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