Proving Christianity without the Bible or Faith? - DFWstangs Forums
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post #1 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-28-2009, 08:49 PM Thread Starter
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Proving Christianity without the Bible or Faith?

First of all, none of this is meant disrespectful to Christians or God. I was raised a Christian, went to a christian high school, and until recently I would have been the one on the other side of this argument. Personally I don't believe questioning why you believe what you believe is a bad thing.

Can Christianity be proven without the Bible, or the use of "Faith"?

Bible - I know most Christians will not argue Christianity without the Bible because that is the cornerstone of belief. If you step back and look at it from an unbeliever's perspective it is hard to trust a book that was written by man and has been revised many times. Although Christians would say the bible is inspired by God, would not a person who believes in Islam say the same about the Koran? What makes your belief that the Bible is true more correct than their belief that the Koran is true? Is it possible that the bible is the "Macbeth" or "The Cast of Amontillado" of another generation that some person mistook for a non-fictional work? I think you have to throw out the bible, I don't think it can be proven as fact, only taken as the True word of God by faith.

Faith - Faith is the bigger issue here I believe. Christians will use faith to explain anything complicated (the Trinity anyone?), and it really seems to be a cop-out for a lack of facts often times, even by very knowledgeable people. If you were to tell me you take the bible by faith, to me that means you trust it believing it is true, but not really having any proof. Is faith just a choice? I think Hindus or Buddhists have faith in their religion, and probably believe just as sternly in their religion as you do Christianity (and as I once did). I was brought up a christian, if I were brought up a Hindu wouldn't I choose to have just as much faith in Hinduism? If a Mormon talks to you about their religion you believe you are right ant they are wrong, but they believe, just as whole heatedly, the exact opposite?

Help me out here...

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post #2 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-28-2009, 11:34 PM
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Once you know Him the faith is validated as real. It isn't something that can be rationalized. If it were, it wouldn't mean very much.

As for the bible, people get saved all the time with no biblical knowledge whatsoever.

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post #3 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 02:03 AM
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Christianity is founded in certain doctrines and teachings regarding God's revelation to man, specifically His work in Christ Jesus to save His people from their sin by His grace.

You are asking for these doctrines and teachings to be verified without using the book these teachings are found in. Apart from prophecy which no other major religious book has, and the Bible continues to prove dead on accurate, what external proofs are you looking for?

Regarding faith. Biblical faith is not a feeling that people just muster up because they want something to be true. It is a supernatural gift that God grants.

1 Cor 12

8For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit
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post #4 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 10:28 AM
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When witnessing or discussing Christianity with a non beliver I dont rely heavily if at all on the Bible at the beginning of the discussion.

You want to lead them to the Bible not just defend it.

Respond to their questions with questions and get them to defend their position with factual information that disproves the Bible or Jesus, most cannot. You should be able to show them that their unbelief is less rational then your belief.

Also avoid those type discussions the net especially dfwstangs LOL
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post #5 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 11:03 AM
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There is a difference in knowing of God, and Knowing God. I know it is the truth, because I see God working in my life on a daily basis. I have been through some bad situations in the past 6-12 months and God came through for me everytime. If it wasn't for God, I would have probably off'd myself. Although, the times were rough and I never want to go through them again, it has been awsome to see God come through for me. I know God is real, because there is just no way it could have been anything else.
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post #6 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 11:43 AM
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The Bible... filled with contradictions and fiction etc etc.
Faith.... Blind Faith in a book that has no proof. Wow ...

Who do you thank when horrible or bad things happen to you or others ?
Who do you thank when a child is born with a disability either mental or physical ?
Who do you thank when natural disasters wipe out entire families especially children ?
Who takes a knee and thanks God for losing the football game ?

There's no proof to any religion yet the world revolves on it...

Scary...

Last edited by Bullitt3055; 05-29-2009 at 12:08 PM.
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post #7 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 11:53 AM
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there is a verse in the bible i believe where is says" god gave us faith, hope, and love but the greatest thing is love. i think personally that as long as you have love in you for your fellow man that that's what Jesus was trying to show people. He summed it up as to love your fellow man and love God, and i don't think that God is gonna care if you don't call him the same thing everyone else does. just be cool and i think you will be fine if there is an afterlife

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post #8 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 03:41 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flashstang04 View Post
Once you know Him the faith is validated as real. It isn't something that can be rationalized. If it were, it wouldn't mean very much.

As for the bible, people get saved all the time with no biblical knowledge whatsoever.
To "know him" you would have to have faith, and then for that to be the validation of that faith is circular.

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Originally Posted by Phillystang View Post
Christianity is founded in certain doctrines and teachings regarding God's revelation to man, specifically His work in Christ Jesus to save His people from their sin by His grace.

You are asking for these doctrines and teachings to be verified without using the book these teachings are found in. Apart from prophecy which no other major religious book has, and the Bible continues to prove dead on accurate, what external proofs are you looking for?

Regarding faith. Biblical faith is not a feeling that people just muster up because they want something to be true. It is a supernatural gift that God grants.

1 Cor 12

8For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit
I ask for the Bible to be thrown out because it can not be proven to be 100% inerrant. If Christianity is based on the Bible, which cannot be proven to be correct, how can you base your life on it?

I don't think predictive prophesy alone shows that the Bible is inerrant, although I will admit it sets it apart from others. Maybe the predictions are correct, it is the past stories it tells that I am more interested in.

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Originally Posted by YoBro View Post
When witnessing or discussing Christianity with a non beliver I dont rely heavily if at all on the Bible at the beginning of the discussion.

You want to lead them to the Bible not just defend it.

Respond to their questions with questions and get them to defend their position with factual information that disproves the Bible or Jesus, most cannot. You should be able to show them that their unbelief is less rational then your belief.

Also avoid those type discussions the net especially dfwstangs LOL
So are you saying that you believe solely because you think it is more rational than to not believe? I am searching for a little more than "settling" for Christianity. What about a hindu that thinks their religon is more rational than Christianity, would that make them right?

Why avoid this discussion? Pretty good place to witness to people if you ask me....


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Originally Posted by StangTamer View Post
There is a difference in knowing of God, and Knowing God. I know it is the truth, because I see God working in my life on a daily basis. I have been through some bad situations in the past 6-12 months and God came through for me everytime. If it wasn't for God, I would have probably off'd myself. Although, the times were rough and I never want to go through them again, it has been awsome to see God come through for me. I know God is real, because there is just no way it could have been anything else.
If a Buddhist had gone through an identical hard time and come out ok on the other side, would they not attribute it to Buddah? Which one of you is right?

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Originally Posted by Big Studly View Post
you need to read some Renee Descartes' Meditations on First Philosophy and his Discourse on Method, as well as other writings on Ontological argument if you are searching for a scientific proof that God exists.
I was wondering if anybody would go there...

I though of that right after I posted this last night and went and grabbed my book to re-read Meditations on First Philosophy. I just read the intro where he is writing a letter explaining the point to some people he was sending it to.
So far it makes me feel a little less crazy to know that someone else had the same questions. I am going to read the whole thing again.

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post #9 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 05:32 PM
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A faithful saint, Joe, said, "The Lord gives, and the Lord takes away, but blessed by the name of the Lord." God either calms the storms in our lives, and sometimes he just rides them with us.

Honestly, when I look back at all of the troubles and trials I have been through in my life, they have ALL helped me, in one way or another.

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Originally Posted by Bullitt3055 View Post
The Bible... filled with contradictions and fiction etc etc.
Faith.... Blind Faith in a book that has no proof. Wow ...

Who do you thank when horrible or bad things happen to you or others ?
Who do you thank when a child is born with a disability either mental or physical ?
Who do you thank when natural disasters wipe out entire families especially children ?
Who takes a knee and thanks God for losing the football game ?

There's no proof to any religion yet the world revolves on it...

Scary...

NO NO NO, it should be DFWLS1's, CUMMINS, C6 VETTES.net
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post #10 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-29-2009, 10:15 PM
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OP, if you're asking if any religion can be proven logically, the answer is no. It's called, "faith," for a reason.

Give me a dollar.
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post #11 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 12:00 AM
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The essence of religion is faith.
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post #12 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 03:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bullitt3055 View Post
The Bible... filled with contradictions and fiction etc etc.
Faith.... Blind Faith in a book that has no proof. Wow ...

Who do you thank when horrible or bad things happen to you or others ?
Who do you thank when a child is born with a disability either mental or physical ?
Who do you thank when natural disasters wipe out entire families especially children ?
Who takes a knee and thanks God for losing the football game ?

There's no proof to any religion yet the world revolves on it...

Scary...

-It is not Gods fault that horrible or bad things happen to us. We bring many things on ourselves or someone else does. If you/we put more value toward God than towards our problems then, our problems won't be problems.
-I have two diasabled children and it is not Gods fault they are that way. Go to the Doctors that everyone has faith in. They are the ones that poisoned my kids with vaccines. It is God's will that they are healed.
-God doesn't kill people off.lol "natural" disasters is the key word. Just because an insurance company might call a hail storm "an act of God" doesn't mean God really did. God is a loving God hence the verse "God is Love".
-Win, lose, or draw... I thank God for letting me play the game. There is always something to thank God for. But, many people aren't thankful and only look at the negative. You can always find something good in any situation. Everyone has a choice on what they want to focus on.


I think you have the wrong idea about who God is. You aren't alone though. I know plenty of Christians that think the same way. I was one of them. I was taught that if you smoke cigarettes, you are going to HELL!!lol You won't go to hell for smoking a cigarette, you'll just smell like you've been there. Or the famous, "God works in mysterious ways".lol God has a book called the Bible and it tells you everything that he will do. People have a wrong impression of God and think he is a mean, angry God. But, rather than me writting a book I will say this. If you see something in the Bible that looks like God is mean or evil, then you are not understanding it. If you know/meet a Christian(maybe a grandma type figure, that has went to church her whole life and you've never seen them do anything bad, and think, she is a good person) that says something about God (it just wasn't Gods will for someone to live), then she is wrong and has a wrong impression of who God is. God is LOVE. The rule of thumb is God is good and the Devil is bad. If it doesn't look/sound like love, grace, or mercy then you aren't understanding it correctly.

Last edited by StangTamer; 05-30-2009 at 03:38 AM.
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post #13 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 08:06 AM
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The other day an older fellow that I work with was telling me that a man can decide to believe whatever he wants. I told him that I do not decide to believe things. I could decide to believe that the sky is orange if I want to. I would be wrong. We as logical beings should believe things based on evidence. Instead most of us decide to believe things (or in many cases pretend to believe things) because we think that it is the right thing to do, because people will think badly of us if we do not, tradition, whatever. If Christians were born in another part of the world with another religion they would feel just as strongly about that religion. Do theists think that it is just an awesome coincidence that you were born into a geographical location that is prodominantly occupied by followers of the one god that they also believe in? I dunno. Maybe they just consider themselves blessed. Cheers.
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post #14 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by 5.0_CJ View Post
The essence of religion is faith.
The foundation of "faith" is OPINION. Look it up in the dictionary.

What is the foundation of the word OPINION?

What is the foundation of the word NOTHING?

What is the difference between FAITH and KNOWLEDGE?


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post #15 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by slow06 View Post
So are you saying that you believe solely because you think it is more rational than to not believe? I am searching for a little more than "settling" for Christianity. What about a hindu that thinks their religon is more rational than Christianity, would that make them right?

Why avoid this discussion? Pretty good place to witness to people if you ask me....
No, I am not saying I believe because its more rational, the OP asked if Christianity could be proven without the Bible. I feel you can show Christianity is more rational without relying solely on the Bible. Worded original response poorly.

Everyone thinks they are right......

Have you not read this section? I wouldnt send anyone with questions on one side or the other here for answers.

Last edited by YoBro; 05-30-2009 at 09:06 AM.
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post #16 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by FSON View Post
The foundation of "faith" is OPINION. Look it up in the dictionary.

What is the foundation of the word OPINION?

What is the foundation of the word NOTHING?

What is the difference between FAITH and KNOWLEDGE?


Soren Kierkegaard
Martin Buber
Paul Tillich
Jacques Maritain
faith
  /feɪθ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [feyth] Show IPA
–noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

ctrl+f that with "opinion"

I'll say it again, the essence of religion is faith.


re⋅li⋅gion
  /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.

Last edited by CJ; 05-30-2009 at 11:10 AM.
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post #17 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 12:36 PM
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Proving Christianity without the Bible or Faith....??? Hmmm...

Christianity cannot be proven even when using the Bible and Faith... and thats a proven fact.

Truly amazing how "intelligent" we humans are... Most are naive enough to just follow along with man written myths and legends as truth... Don't just dismiss how Christianity was spread either...

Go ahead and give it a shot... Prove any religion as being the truth... Use whatever means possible.... aint gonna happen.

One more thing... When did God say in the Bible that it is ok to edit his Bible as man chooses?

It all boils down to ... Man invented religion in fear of the unknown.. Death tops the list
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post #18 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by 5.0_CJ View Post
faith
  /feɪθ/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [feyth] Show IPA
–noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.
7. the observance of this obligation; fidelity to one's promise, oath, allegiance, etc.: He was the only one who proved his faith during our recent troubles.
8. Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

ctrl+f that with "opinion"

I'll say it again, the essence of religion is faith.


re⋅li⋅gion
  /rɪˈlɪdʒən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA
–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.
7. religions, Archaic. religious rites.
8. Archaic. strict faithfulness; devotion: a religion to one's vow.

You can control F all you want.

G#d doesn't care about religion or faith. He asks you to accept Jesus as your saviour and be baptized in water so you may receive the Holy Spirit and gain the ability to know instead of believe.

Everything else is a human contrivance.
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post #19 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 05:44 PM
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You can control F all you want.

G#d doesn't care about religion or faith. He asks you to accept Jesus as your saviour and be baptized in water so you may receive the Holy Spirit and gain the ability to know instead of believe.

Everything else is a human contrivance.
Stay on topic, The statement I made was true, the statement you made was false, using your own evidence.
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post #20 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 06:47 PM
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It never ceases to amaze me how some folks think they are so damn smart, yet they are naive or narcissistic enough to think there is no greater being than them.

What makes man think we're "it"? It's the ultimate in egoism...

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post #21 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 07:48 PM
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It never ceases to amaze me how some folks think they are so damn smart, yet they are naive or narcissistic enough to think there is no greater being than them.

What makes man think we're "it"? It's the ultimate in egoism...
Then there are those that can't understand why anyone would see things differently.

Give me a dollar.
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post #22 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 08:30 PM
 
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Let me say this about faith.....how many of us have had moments where we felt something good would happen to us or maybe something bad....and bam it did....now when that feeling first presented itself you chose to either believe it would happen or wouldn't...if you chose to believe it would happen that is faith.......whether good or bad. You put that same faith into what God says....to me religion itself is a joke....but there is one way to test without using the bible whether you believe God is real.....Let me back up to the bible for some background.....the bible says to pay 10% tithe and offerings of anything you have in abundance...Now God promises to repay you even though it is his in the first place....ok now here is your test of course some of you will choose not to but....start tithing and see if God does not begin to bless you.....if you don't go to church send it with someone who does. Another thing God does not choose to just kill children or have cities wiped out by disasters however.....if his people choose not to obey he does and will lift his hand from them. the bible also says that he will not put anything upon us which we cannot handle.....we are tested people and only by faith will we pass them. Last but not least......if you chose to believe there is no God and we all follow you when we die everything is good....but if we (the people who have faith) say to you non-believers hey there is a God follow him and you chose not to...when you die it wont be a pretty afterlife!
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post #23 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-30-2009, 09:47 PM
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Let me say this about faith.....how many of us have had moments where we felt something good would happen to us or maybe something bad....and bam it did....now when that feeling first presented itself you chose to either believe it would happen or wouldn't...if you chose to believe it would happen that is faith.......whether good or bad. You put that same faith into what God says....to me religion itself is a joke....but there is one way to test without using the bible whether you believe God is real.....Let me back up to the bible for some background.....the bible says to pay 10% tithe and offerings of anything you have in abundance...Now God promises to repay you even though it is his in the first place....ok now here is your test of course some of you will choose not to but....start tithing and see if God does not begin to bless you.....if you don't go to church send it with someone who does. Another thing God does not choose to just kill children or have cities wiped out by disasters however.....if his people choose not to obey he does and will lift his hand from them. the bible also says that he will not put anything upon us which we cannot handle.....we are tested people and only by faith will we pass them. Last but not least......if you chose to believe there is no God and we all follow you when we die everything is good....but if we (the people who have faith) say to you non-believers hey there is a God follow him and you chose not to...when you die it wont be a pretty afterlife!

I'm not trying to offend you, but I do want to enlighten you on some things you posted. It is good news though. The bible says, "I will never leave you, nor forsake you". When people choose not to obey, God doesn't leave them, they choose to leave God, and that is where things start hitting the fan. God isn't the one testing us, we bring the problems on ourselves. The devil may tempt us with something and we take the bait. God is a loving God. Many people think we have to perform good or else God will punish us. But, they just need to realize that God is "God the Father" not "The Godfather".lol

I am all for tithing, it is the least thing people can do to show they trust God and have faith. But, anyone that tithes must tithe out of love, because if you give out of a grudging heart, it will profit you nothing. You don't want to tithe out of necessity or to get something back. If you tithe and do it with the right motivation, you will see a 100 fold return. It works for me.
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post #24 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 10:26 AM
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Excellent point made about tithing....tithing under the motivation to "get something back" is completely selfish and goes against all Biblical teaching. A person who tithes willingly and joyfully is one who realizes that their tithe already belonged to God in the first place.
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post #25 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 11:08 AM
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I don't believe in any god except ourselves. We are all gods. We have to realize that we are or can be just like a virus. We can devour all our resources and destroy ourselves by overpopulating our planet. We have to make a life greater than ourselves in order to survive as a species. We have to be the DNA in a being that we can not even fathom. We have to make sure that when we design that being, we are also necessary to its survival.

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....LMAO @.... trying to figure out how to make a Utopian society!
In a perfect world the police would get paid to do nothing. So next time you see a cop eatin a donut, Yell.. Hey! Good Job!

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post #26 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 11:21 AM
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I don't believe in any god except ourselves. We are all gods. We have to realize that we are or can be just like a virus. We can devour all our resources and destroy ourselves by overpopulating our planet. We have to make a life greater than ourselves in order to survive as a species. We have to be the DNA in a being that we can not even fathom. We have to make sure that when we design that being, we are also necessary to its survival.
No no... we need to continue to multiply our population by a factor of 2 every 25 years. Man I hate people who just will not stop breeding. It is reckless and irresponsible and somehow pointing that out to a woman with 5 kids is just not OK.
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post #27 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 11:45 AM
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I don't believe in any god except ourselves. We are all gods. We have to realize that we are or can be just like a virus. We can devour all our resources and destroy ourselves by overpopulating our planet. We have to make a life greater than ourselves in order to survive as a species. We have to be the DNA in a being that we can not even fathom. We have to make sure that when we design that being, we are also necessary to its survival.
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post #28 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 12:22 PM
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Education is the key!

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....LMAO @.... trying to figure out how to make a Utopian society!
In a perfect world the police would get paid to do nothing. So next time you see a cop eatin a donut, Yell.. Hey! Good Job!

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post #29 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 04:37 PM
 
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stangtamer you are 100% correct and upon rereading what I typed it is misleading.....your heart has to be in the right place....but the point I was trying to make is that by doing good for others God will do good for you which is the proof I believe they are asking to see not using the bible. but yes i agree with you, you cant do it with the hopes you will get something back
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post #30 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 04:42 PM
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No no... we need to continue to multiply our population by a factor of 2 every 25 years. Man I hate people who just will not stop breeding. It is reckless and irresponsible and somehow pointing that out to a woman with 5 kids is just not OK.
WE, as the united states need to maintain 2 births per couple to maintain our civilization. The rest of the world is not under our control, or under yours. So, in this country, you should have 2 children to continue to insure our country exists tomorrow.
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post #31 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 05:23 PM
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WE, as the united states need to maintain 2 births per couple to maintain our civilization. The rest of the world is not under our control, or under yours. So, in this country, you should have 2 children to continue to insure our country exists tomorrow.
No need. I work with enough cum dumpsters that have 5-8 that I don't have to have any.

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post #32 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 05:41 PM
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No need. I work with enough cum dumpsters that have 5-8 that I don't have to have any.

Jonathan
today the average couple has less than two, so those people that have several are helping us to maintain our infrastructure in this country. With all this ridiculous spending going on now, all those kids you despise will be paying this debt, as well as your social security.
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post #33 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 09:38 PM
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today the average couple has less than two, so those people that have several are helping us to maintain our infrastructure in this country. With all this ridiculous spending going on now, all those kids you despise will be paying this debt, as well as your social security.
All those children will be doing is giving more money to the Muslims for their oil. Meanwhile they are having 8 kids per household. Its one thing to maintain your population. Its something else to be overrun by another population.

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....LMAO @.... trying to figure out how to make a Utopian society!
In a perfect world the police would get paid to do nothing. So next time you see a cop eatin a donut, Yell.. Hey! Good Job!

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post #34 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 11:02 PM
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First of all, none of this is meant disrespectful to Christians or God. I was raised a Christian, went to a christian high school, and until recently I would have been the one on the other side of this argument. Personally I don't believe questioning why you believe what you believe is a bad thing.

Can Christianity be proven without the Bible, or the use of "Faith"?

Bible - I know most Christians will not argue Christianity without the Bible because that is the cornerstone of belief. If you step back and look at it from an unbeliever's perspective it is hard to trust a book that was written by man and has been revised many times. Although Christians would say the bible is inspired by God, would not a person who believes in Islam say the same about the Koran? What makes your belief that the Bible is true more correct than their belief that the Koran is true? Is it possible that the bible is the "Macbeth" or "The Cast of Amontillado" of another generation that some person mistook for a non-fictional work? I think you have to throw out the bible, I don't think it can be proven as fact, only taken as the True word of God by faith.

Faith - Faith is the bigger issue here I believe. Christians will use faith to explain anything complicated (the Trinity anyone?), and it really seems to be a cop-out for a lack of facts often times, even by very knowledgeable people. If you were to tell me you take the bible by faith, to me that means you trust it believing it is true, but not really having any proof. Is faith just a choice? I think Hindus or Buddhists have faith in their religion, and probably believe just as sternly in their religion as you do Christianity (and as I once did). I was brought up a christian, if I were brought up a Hindu wouldn't I choose to have just as much faith in Hinduism? If a Mormon talks to you about their religion you believe you are right ant they are wrong, but they believe, just as whole heatedly, the exact opposite?

Help me out here...

im in the same boat as you are. i was raised christian and my step-dad and his father were pastors.

my brother in law believes some crazy shit about aliens that he explained to me and it was in reference to genesis chapter 6 verse 4 "There were Nephilim in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

so according to this passage god did not just have one son he had many who slept with human women and they had babies. so that pretty much contradicts the whole christian religion. imo. there are also many other books that the prophets wrote that were cast out of the bible by emperor constantine that most "christians" dont know about.

btw my bro in law is a well educated man who went to school for theology amongst other things.

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post #35 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 11:25 PM
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im in the same boat as you are. i was raised christian and my step-dad and his father were pastors.

my brother in law believes some crazy shit about aliens that he explained to me and it was in reference to genesis chapter 6 verse 4 "There were Nephilim in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

so according to this passage god did not just have one son he had many who slept with human women and they had babies. so that pretty much contradicts the whole christian religion. imo. there are also many other books that the prophets wrote that were cast out of the bible by emperor constantine that most "christians" dont know about.

btw my bro in law is a well educated man who went to school for theology amongst other things.


damn, i need to reread genesis. i knew there was some wacky shit in there but i never recalled that from vacation bible school.

i heard a comedian say some shit last weekend that made me chuckle but i almost feel bad for writing it because it sounds sacrilegious. but, he said so if we are all Gods children why is Jesus so special.

i hope repeating that joke doesn't keep me out of heaven

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post #36 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 11:28 PM
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damn, i need to reread genesis. i knew there was some wacky shit in there but i never recalled that from vacation bible school.

i heard a comedian say some shit last weekend that made me chuckle but i almost feel bad for writing it because it sounds sacrilegious. but, he said so if we are all Gods children why is Jesus so special.

i hope repeating that joke doesn't keep me out of heaven
Who says everyone is God's children?
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post #37 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 11:35 PM
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damn, i need to reread genesis. i knew there was some wacky shit in there but i never recalled that from vacation bible school.

i heard a comedian say some shit last weekend that made me chuckle but i almost feel bad for writing it because it sounds sacrilegious. but, he said so if we are all Gods children why is Jesus so special.

i hope repeating that joke doesn't keep me out of heaven
well of course they wont teach that stuff in vbs. they also wont teach that moses was a warlord that slaughtered women and children so that he could have the "promise land". all they teach you is the stuff that re-enforces the christian belief and leave out all the rest. thats why i cant even have a decent conversation about the bible with most "christians"(most of which haven't even read the book through). they just regurgitate what they were told without doing and real research into anything and then they get all pissed off when i tell them these things that proves them wrong. then like you said they fall back on the faith thing.

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Who says everyone is God's children?
most christians that get offened by what i say about the genesis chapter 6 thing fall back on that. i then tell them why they have made it a point to include that part in the bible if it was understood that "everyone is a child of god".

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post #38 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 11:40 PM
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well of course they wont teach that stuff in vbs. they also wont teach that moses was a warlord that slaughtered women and children so that he could have the "promise land". all they teach you is the stuff that re-enforces the christian belief and leave out all the rest. thats why i cant even have a decent conversation about the bible with most "christians"(most of which haven't even read the book through). they just regurgitate what they were told without doing and real research into anything and then they get all pissed off when i tell them these things that proves them wrong. then like you said they fall back on the faith thing.
Glad I don't fit into the "most christians" category. None of the hard things are left out of my understanding of the Bible.

Please check out James R. White at aomin.org
He even has a twice weekly radio show that you can call in and prove him wrong on, lol.
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post #39 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 11:42 PM
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Who says everyone is God's children?
well it was a common thing to say when i was growing up in church that we were all Gods children.

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post #40 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 11:46 PM
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well of course they wont teach that stuff in vbs. they also wont teach that moses was a warlord that slaughtered women and children so that he could have the "promise land". all they teach you is the stuff that re-enforces the christian belief and leave out all the rest. thats why i cant even have a decent conversation about the bible with most "christians"(most of which haven't even read the book through). they just regurgitate what they were told without doing and real research into anything and then they get all pissed off when i tell them these things that proves them wrong. then like you said they fall back on the faith thing.



most christians that get offened by what i say about the genesis chapter 6 thing fall back on that. i then tell them why they have made it a point to include that part in the bible if it was understood that "everyone is a child of god".


not saying you are wrong, but where did you get the moses being a warlord bit from. its been years since i really read the bible. now i usually just read bits and pieces when i hear someone quote a part from it. i just googled that verse you talked about genesis ch 6 verse 4 because i am too lazy to go get my bible and the first link was to some sort of alien resistance website.

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post #41 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 11:47 PM
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well it was a common thing to say when i was growing up in church that we were all Gods children.
Did you know that Jesus calls some people Children of the Devil?
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post #42 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 11:49 PM
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Glad I don't fit into the "most christians" category. None of the hard things are left out of my understanding of the Bible.

Please check out James R. White at aomin.org
He even has a twice weekly radio show that you can call in and prove him wrong on, lol.
im not saying that i'm proving them wrong actually. they feel that way because most of them aren't knowledgeable enough to put up anykind of arguement with me whatsoever.

i dont necessarily believe that alien's were are creators. just food for thought. i dont really have a religion. i just do the best i can and try to be a decent human so no matter which god it is i might get to go to heaven, if it even exsists. i do believe there is a higher power im just not sure what/ who it is.

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post #43 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 11:52 PM
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Did you know that Jesus calls some people Children of the Devil?
no i didnt know that. where is that at?

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post #44 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 11:56 PM
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no i didnt know that. where is that at?
John 8
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
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post #45 of 122 (permalink) Old 05-31-2009, 11:59 PM
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John 8
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
thanks and thanks for not just putting the chapter and verse and making me look it up. it really gets on my nerves when people do that.

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post #46 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-01-2009, 12:01 AM
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thanks and thanks for not just putting the chapter and verse and making me look it up. it really gets on my nerves when people do that.
no prob
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post #47 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-01-2009, 03:28 AM
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Wasn't he adressing the pharisees when he said that?

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post #48 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-01-2009, 03:54 AM
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somewhat interesting question.

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post #49 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-01-2009, 03:54 AM
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well of course they wont teach that stuff in vbs. they also wont teach that moses was a warlord that slaughtered women and children so that he could have the "promise land". all they teach you is the stuff that re-enforces the christian belief and leave out all the rest. thats why i cant even have a decent conversation about the bible with most "christians"(most of which haven't even read the book through). they just regurgitate what they were told without doing and real research into anything and then they get all pissed off when i tell them these things that proves them wrong. then like you said they fall back on the faith thing.



most christians that get offened by what i say about the genesis chapter 6 thing fall back on that. i then tell them why they have made it a point to include that part in the bible if it was understood that "everyone is a child of god".
Not everyone is a child of god.

One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the congregation of the Lord. (Deuteronomy 23:2)
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post #50 of 122 (permalink) Old 06-01-2009, 04:00 AM
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Not everyone is a child of god.

One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the congregation of the Lord. (Deuteronomy 23:2)

that does not sound right...an illegitimate kid is not at fault

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