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post #1 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-21-2009, 01:28 PM Thread Starter
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Mark 4-10

10When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12so that,
" 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!


Is this saying that there are people that Jesus doesn't want to be forgiven.

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post #2 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-21-2009, 03:15 PM
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My understanding of that Scripture would be He was saying that those outside of the Twelve must rely on their Faith to understand and learn from the Word of God. The Twelve had the obvious advantage of having physically been in the presence of Jesus to witness firsthand His power and grace, whereas the rest of us must call upon our Faith to bring us into the presence of the Lord.

Last edited by Mr Majestyk; 02-21-2009 at 03:21 PM.
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post #3 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-21-2009, 04:10 PM Thread Starter
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maybe, but thats not what i get. the people that saw him still had to have faith just like anyone else. And he wasn't talking to just the 12. It says that he was speaking to the 12 and others.




reading the previous verses and the verses following that it appears that he is explaining why he speaks in parables. and saying that he is doing so that some people won't understand him because he doesn't want them to be saved.

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post #4 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-21-2009, 05:40 PM
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He may have used parables as a means of getting His audience to think, and thereby reinforce the message He was delivering. To say that He did anything because He did not want some people to be saved goes against His ultimate sacrifice, that being He would most certainly not have gone through the suffering and death He endured if He did not want all to be saved.
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post #5 of 12 (permalink) Old 02-21-2009, 05:47 PM Thread Starter
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thats what doesn't make sense.

but, it seems to clearly state that.

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post #6 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-02-2009, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk View Post
My understanding of that Scripture would be He was saying that those outside of the Twelve must rely on their Faith to understand and learn from the Word of God. The Twelve had the obvious advantage of having physically been in the presence of Jesus to witness firsthand His power and grace, whereas the rest of us must call upon our Faith to bring us into the presence of the Lord.
So if you witness first hand the power and grace of Jesus, you do not need faith/belief?

How does John 3-16 fit into this?
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post #7 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-04-2009, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenacious j View Post
10When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12so that,
" 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!


Is this saying that there are people that Jesus doesn't want to be forgiven.
I actually believe that it's god's go-ahead.

That last line doesn't make much sense. It's a line that you can twist and manipulate to whatever you want. The first two lines make perfect sense, but that last one is a stretch. Just My opinion.
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post #8 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-19-2009, 05:17 AM
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It would seem to me that it is kind of like sarcasm. "Otherwise, they might be saved...! :rollseyes:" Thats just how it comes off to me. Like he is saying what he sees to be the typical behavior of a human. For that to be the case though, the people on the "outside" would have to be people who do not believe. See this is how i have a big problem with the bible. Who can understand all this? This is writing from 2000 years ago, in another language. And, for it to be like he says it is, anyone anywhere at any time has to be able to pick up the book, read it and be able to pretty much draw their own conclusions from what is in it. We certainly can't trust our fellow man to tell us the truth. Maybe i was raised in a church where the preacher was an idiot. Maybe he is also a guy like me who is trying to make sense of something written 2000 years ago in another language. I don't think we will ever know the real meaning of some of the passages, but you just have to sorta get the idea of the main points.

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i think thedark1337 is a pretty cool guy. eh plays the game and doesnt afraid of anything


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- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"

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post #9 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-19-2009, 08:42 AM
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As hard as it is to stomach and despite popular belief, Jesus doesn't desire to save everyone. There are more verses in the bible than just what most people think John 3:16 means.

The Bible teaches election and predestination. So many pastors never deal with these doctrines. Ashamed of what the Bible really says?

John 17:8-10
8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me.

9"I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;

10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.


Romans 11
4But what is the divine response to him? "I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL."

5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.

6But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

7What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

8just as it is written,
"GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR,
EYES TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT,
DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."
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post #10 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-22-2009, 04:31 PM
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I really don't know how they could have ever knelt to baal anyway. I am and have always been the type to say "fuck authority" of any kind. Deeming all authority to be flawed and unworthy of me or my obedience. Only one has proven to be worthy to me, so by my own standards he must have my obedience. I would have likely laughed at baal.

An afterthought: This could also be part of the reason he only wants us to worship him... Its kind of a complement, really. It's like no one else is worthy of it, in a way.

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i think thedark1337 is a pretty cool guy. eh plays the game and doesnt afraid of anything


Quote:
Originally Posted by Chillaxed View Post
- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"

Last edited by justinsn95; 03-22-2009 at 08:52 PM.
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post #11 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-23-2009, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenacious j View Post
10When he was alone, the Twelve and the others around him asked him about the parables. 11He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has been given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables 12so that,
" 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding;
otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!


Is this saying that there are people that Jesus doesn't want to be forgiven.
You people are reading into the above what you want it to read , by force.

It says there is a secret and it is meant to remain a secret... OTHERWISE they might turn and be forgive. That's what it says.

There is a secret, and others are not to know this secret otherwise they might turn and be forgiven.

TURN? Turn from what?

What does seeing power and grace have to do with anything?
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post #12 of 12 (permalink) Old 03-31-2009, 08:44 PM
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Guys, you need to take this passage in it entire context.

Jesus is quoting the prophet Isaiah (6: 9-10)

This is regarding the hardening of the hearts of the Jews and the trouble which would befall them.

Last edited by SVT93Style; 03-31-2009 at 08:57 PM.
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