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post #1 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-16-2008, 02:22 PM Thread Starter
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Oprah and New Age stuff

I was listening to the Catholic am radio channel yesterday on the way home. The guest on the show was talking all bad about Oprah and how she was a big New Age force that was up to all kinds of crazy stuff.

Hear are a couple YouTube vids that I found relevant to that discussion.






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post #2 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-16-2008, 02:29 PM
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Oprah is power drunk and insane. She buys into Deepak Chopra's books too much. ( I have read 3 of them)

She will lead many astray with her church.




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post #3 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-16-2008, 03:16 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flashstang04
Oprah is power drunk and insane. She buys into Deepak Chopra's books too much. ( I have read 3 of them)

She will lead many astray with her church.
Nice follow up. I knew she was out there, but I didn't realize she was such an advocate. I guess I've only seen her shows when big celebrities were on.

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post #4 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-16-2008, 04:40 PM
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Some more insight....

http://www.lifeway.com/lwc/article_m...200779,00.html

She really is pushing to make this a HUGE church......

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post #5 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-16-2008, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by flashstang04
She will lead many astray with her church.
I'm sure the same was said about Jesus and those who formed the protestant church when they first came around.
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post #6 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-16-2008, 10:55 PM
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I'm sure the same was said about Jesus and those who formed the protestant church when they first came around.


Here is the difference..

Jesus said, "None come to the Father except through me"

Oprah says, " There are infinite paths to what some call "god".


See what she is doing there? Taking away original sin of man..i.e. No accountability!

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post #7 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 05:25 PM
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post #8 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by flashstang04
Here is the difference..

Jesus said, "None come to the Father except through me"

Oprah says, " There are infinite paths to what some call "god".


See what she is doing there? Taking away original sin of man..i.e. No accountability!
Isn't that what Jesus does? No matter what you do, even murder someone, you can go to heaven as long as you ask for forgiveness? That's crap. No wonder chrisitianity grew so fast. People just think "Well damn. That's a lot easier than what I had to do before."
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post #9 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 05:57 PM
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Oh good grief! Y'all are worked up about Oprah now? LMGDAO!!!
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post #10 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 08:29 PM
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Originally Posted by poopnut2
Isn't that what Jesus does? No matter what you do, even murder someone, you can go to heaven as long as you ask for forgiveness? That's crap. No wonder chrisitianity grew so fast. People just think "Well damn. That's a lot easier than what I had to do before."
No, that is not how it is. When God saves a person, they are changed and no longer live in sin and enjoy it as a way of life. Google the theological term: regeneration.

Christianity is not about getting a ticket to heaven because you said a magic prayer and then living like a hellion the rest of your life. It is about God's work in having grace upon and transforming of sinners into conformity to Christ.


2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
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post #11 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 09:52 PM
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No, that is not how it is. When God saves a person, they are changed and no longer live in sin and enjoy it as a way of life. Google the theological term: regeneration.

Christianity is not about getting a ticket to heaven because you said a magic prayer and then living like a hellion the rest of your life. It is about God's work in having grace upon and transforming of sinners into conformity to Christ.


2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
That's exactly what it is. According to christianity, someone can murder and rape or whatever heinous act you can imagine, feel sorry for it, repent their "sin" and still be accepted by christ and allowed into the kingdom of heaven. Also, a person who has NEVER done such an unspeakable act, has never heard of Jesus or the christian faith, not accept Jesus into their heart, and be damned for eternity.
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post #12 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 09:57 PM
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Who listens to any AM stations... on top of that, who listens to a Catholic AM station.
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post #13 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 10:01 PM
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Who listens to any AM stations... on top of that, who listens to a Catholic AM station.
People who want to go to heaven.

Duh... ...

1310 is the only AM I listen to.
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post #14 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 10:08 PM
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That's exactly what it is. According to christianity, someone can murder and rape or whatever heinous act you can imagine, feel sorry for it, repent their "sin" and still be accepted by christ and allowed into the kingdom of heaven. Also, a person who has NEVER done such an unspeakable act, has never heard of Jesus or the christian faith, not accept Jesus into their heart, and be damned for eternity.
2 questions:

Do you think a person can be good enough on their own and earn salvation/heaven/kingdom of God apart from Christ?

Do you think a person can be too bad and sinful and therefore void his opportunity to receive God's grace in the work of Christ?

Here is a very relevant quote...

Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
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post #15 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 10:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
2 questions:

Do you think a person can be good enough on their own and earn salvation/heaven/kingdom of God apart from Christ?

Do you think a person can be too bad and sinful and therefore void his opportunity to receive God's grace in the work of Christ?

Here is a very relevant quote...

Mark 2:17
On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
First Q: Yes. Sin, like morals, like laws are relative to the environment that you live in. Not every city, state, and country have the same laws, just as morals are typically taught by family members or those you are around growing up. There are plenty of people in the world that if you told them that something they do is a sin and will be damned for doing it, would look at you like you were crazy.

Second Q: I don't believe in a christian God, because according to the bible, nobody is too far from gone from Gods grace, and if one repents their sins, no matter what the sin is, they'll be forgiven.

Like I said. The only reason chritianity grew so fast is because it sounds so easy and can be twisted and manipulated to fit one's lifestyle.
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post #16 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-17-2008, 10:50 PM
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post #17 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-18-2008, 09:45 AM
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Second Q: I don't believe in a christian God......
That's all you had to say right there. Arguing with an unbeliever about theological issues is pointless.

BTW, God's law is the only thing that really matters here. Problem with that is: EVERYONE has broken God's law.

OK, I'll stop right here before I start sharing the gospel with you.....
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post #18 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-18-2008, 04:38 PM
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Lots of people who never heard of Jesus (past and present) burning in hell right now I guess.
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post #19 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-18-2008, 05:37 PM
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Lots of people who never heard of Jesus (past and present) burning in hell right now I guess.

"All men are given the measure of faith"

Those who have never heard of Christ are judged on the heart, and will have a chance to accept Him... so no..your assumption is false.

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post #20 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-18-2008, 07:20 PM
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Lots of people who never heard of Jesus (past and present) burning in hell right now I guess.
They're not really burning, but they are forced to watch oprah. I'm sure its just as unpleasant.
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post #21 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-18-2008, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by flashstang04
"All men are given the measure of faith"

Those who have never heard of Christ are judged on the heart, and will have a chance to accept Him... so no..your assumption is false.
This is not a historically orthodox view and lacks Scriptural support.

Question 1-
What dead heathen would not accept the Lordship of Christ in all His splendor if given the opportunity? Tell me about the Rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19)


Why was Lazarus so concerned about someone warning his brothers about his state after death in torment?

Question 2-
Why do Christians spend 80 years of persecution and trouble to get the gospel to the far corners of the earth if Jesus will merely tell them the gospel upon their death?
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post #22 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-18-2008, 10:14 PM
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Lots of people who never heard of Jesus (past and present) burning in hell right now I guess.
They're not there because they haven't heard of Jesus. They're there because they are sinners and they deserve to be there. There are also no doubt many there that have heard of Jesus.
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post #23 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-18-2008, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
This is not a historically orthodox view and lacks Scriptural support.

Question 1-
What dead heathen would not accept the Lordship of Christ in all His splendor if given the opportunity? Tell me about the Rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19)


Why was Lazarus so concerned about someone warning his brothers about his state after death in torment?

Question 2-
Why do Christians spend 80 years of persecution and trouble to get the gospel to the far corners of the earth if Jesus will merely tell them the gospel upon their death?

Our God judges perfectly and righteously, and as such, would not condemn anyone who has not had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ. It is his will that NONE should perish, not one.

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post #24 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-18-2008, 10:38 PM
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Our God judges perfectly and righteously, and as such, would not condemn anyone who has not had the opportunity to hear the gospel of Christ. It is his will that NONE should perish, not one.
Emotional arguments based on traditions are nice and all, but what about the questions I posed?

Why was Lazarus so concerned about his brothers facing the same kind of torment that he was facing? Couldn't they just become believers after they die?

Why did God warn the Israelites about putting blood on their doorposts so that the destroyer would pass over killing the firstborn and not warn the Egyptians? (Exodus 12)

None of WHO should perish? The passage is about believers in Christ. Jesus says He will lose none.

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
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post #25 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-18-2008, 10:41 PM
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Emotional arguments based on traditions are nice and all, but what about the questions I posed?

Why was Lazarus so concerned about his brothers facing the same kind of torment that he was facing? Couldn't they just become believers after they die?

Why did God warn the Israelites about putting blood on their doorposts so that the destroyer would pass over killing the firstborn and not warn the Egyptians? (Exodus 12)

None of WHO should perish? The passage is about believers in Christ. Jesus says He will lose none.

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

Lazarus' brothers had the prophets..as the scripture said..i.e. they HAD heard.

What is just about condmning someone who has never heard the gospel?

That would be my question to you..

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post #26 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-18-2008, 10:52 PM
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Lazarus' brothers had the prophets..as the scripture said..i.e. they HAD heard.
Ok, you are correct there. But I would still ask why did Paul make this statement regarding those that have not heard and the necessity of reaching them with the Gospel:

Romans 10

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"


Quote:
Originally Posted by flashstang04
What is just about condmning someone who has never heard the gospel?

That would be my question to you..
Justice is giving someone what their actions deserve.

For example: Man kills an entire family. Relative of family say they want justice. They want the man to pay for what he did with his own life.

People that never hear the Gospel are still sinners, right? Are you saying that sinners do not deserve to be condemned? Is the wages of sin death or has that been phased out of modern teaching?
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post #27 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-18-2008, 10:57 PM
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People that never hear the Gospel are still sinners, right? Are you saying that sinners do not deserve to be condemned? Is the wages of sin death or has that been phased out of modern teaching?

Are people that have never heard the gospel still sinners? Absolutely, if they are human, they are sinners...


You are skipping something very important...God is just...if it is His will that none should perish..which we can assume it is..then we have to believe that he will allow EVERYONE a chance to be saved, lest you fall into the belief that some people are created to go to hell. ALL men are given the measure of faith...they all have the ability to believe and be saved..God would not allow ALL men to have the measure of faith if not for the reason that they at some point would have the ability to accept or refuse Christ.....understand?

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post #28 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-18-2008, 11:03 PM
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Are people that have never heard the gospel still sinners? Absolutely, if they are human, they are sinners...


You are skipping something very important...God is just...if it is His will that none should perish..which we can assume it is..then we have to believe that he will allow EVERYONE a chance to be saved, lest you fall into the belief that some people are created to go to hell. ALL men are given the measure of faith...they all have the ability to believe and be saved..God would not allow ALL men to have the measure of faith if not for the reason that they at some point would have the ability to accept or refuse Christ.....understand?
I used to believe the same, but Scripture just does not support that view. Natural man is not morally neutral, therefore his will is not neutral (free). It acts according to its nature. Man's nature is sinful. See the bold below about natural man's ability.

Romans 8
6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
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post #29 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-18-2008, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Phillystang
I used to believe the same, but Scripture just does not support that view. Natural man is not morally neutral, therefore his will is not neutral (free). It acts according to its nature. Man's nature is sinful. See the bold below about natural man's ability.

Romans 8
6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

I in no way disagree with that.....at all....what I am saying is that God makes a way OUT of this....EVERYONE will have a chance to escape your above curse...or God is not God and we cannot trust His word..

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post #30 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-19-2008, 09:06 AM Thread Starter
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I in no way disagree with that.....at all....what I am saying is that God makes a way OUT of this....EVERYONE will have a chance to escape your above curse...or God is not God and we cannot trust His word..
Ouch. Making ultimatums on your god? That might not go over to well. It seems to me your definition of justice is different than Gods'.

It seems to me, man was created as cannon fodder for the all mighty. Sure a few thousand may make it to paradise, but billions are gonna burn. But hey, a potter can do what he wants with his own clay, so the story goes.

BTW, you haven't supported yourself with biblical scriptures. Take a stab at it, I'd like to see where this discussion ends up.

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post #31 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-19-2008, 09:42 AM
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Ouch. Making ultimatums on your god? That might not go over to well. It seems to me your definition of justice is different than Gods'.

It seems to me, man was created as cannon fodder for the all mighty. Sure a few thousand may make it to paradise, but billions are gonna burn. But hey, a potter can do what he wants with his own clay, so the story goes.

BTW, you haven't supported yourself with biblical scriptures. Take a stab at it, I'd like to see where this discussion ends up.

Ultimatums? Nope, He says He is the same forever. I Am that I Am. He is unchanging, just, and consistent.

A few thousand? you do know that the number of Christians is in the billions right?


Yes I have....a lot.. you may not know it though since I didn't site a chapter and verse. I knew I didn't need to with Philly, as he knows the bible well enough to know which ones I was talking about.

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post #32 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-19-2008, 10:24 AM
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You are skipping something very important...God is just...
This originally Jewish concept is rooted not in the idea that God is fair and evenhanded, but that he is just, meaning no exceptions.

That was a major sticking point for the Marcionites who determined that the god Yaweh (the god of the Jews, the god of the law) was not the supreme god, and not the progenitor of Christ (or Chrestus "the good").

What you consider just today is based on 21st century notions.
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post #33 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-19-2008, 10:30 AM
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This originally Jewish concept is rooted not in the idea that God is fair and evenhanded, but that he is just, meaning no exceptions.

That was a major sticking point for the Marcionites who determined that the god Yaweh (the god of the Jews, the god of the law) was not the supreme god, and not the progenitor of Christ (or Chrestus "the good").

What you consider just today is based on 21st century notions.

Not so much, I see evenhanded the same as no exceptions..He wills that none should perish....no exceptions.. He has given all men the measure of faith..no exceptions...

While the old law is not binding in Christ anymore, we still have to accept that God is consistent in His standards.

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post #34 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-19-2008, 10:37 AM
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Not so much, I see evenhanded the same as no exceptions..He wills that none should perish....no exceptions.. He has given all men the measure of faith..no exceptions...

While the old law is not binding in Christ anymore, we still have to accept that God is consistent in His standards.
I think you are overlaying compassion with justice.

It was not God's will for Adam to commit sin, but he did not stop it and in fact enabled it. So, willing that none should perish is more like leaving the door open for repentence whatever the circumstance.

In your view, you see leaving the door open as applying to those deprived of any opportunity to redeem themselves in life having a chance in death. And I don't think that is necessarily prohibited in any way, considering the word is for the living (so there ya go Lazarus )
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post #35 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-19-2008, 10:42 AM
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I think you are overlaying compassion with justice.

It was not God's will for Adam to commit sin, but he did not stop it and in fact enabled it. So, willing that none should perish is more like leaving the door open for repentence whatever the circumstance.

In your view, you see leaving the door open as applying to those deprived of any opportunity to redeem themselves in life having a chance in death. And I don't think that is necessarily prohibited in any way, considering the word is for the living (so there ya go Lazarus )

The only thing that I would say to that is when it is said that He wills none to perish, that is not the same thing as "He won't LET anyone perish". Free will trumps forced decision every time.

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post #36 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-19-2008, 11:40 AM
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The only thing that I would say to that is when it is said that He wills none to perish, that is not the same thing as "He won't LET anyone perish". Free will trumps forced decision every time.
Does NOT LETTING anyone perish imply an absolute the same as FORBIDDING it, just as the moon is forbidden from falling to the earth? Obviously not, what with that free will requirement; it is a matter of making a life raft available to everyone at least once. I guess it comes down to seeing the justice in condemning a child for the sins of a long dead ancestor somehow being evidence that this same entity considers an individual child separate and solely responsible for their own salvation. I don't see why a second chance doctrine would be explicitly excluded, so we agree on that, but I think Philly is asking for a reason that it should be included.

You are kind of straying into the "all dogs go to heaven" realm, just being constructively critical (or trying to be).
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post #37 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-19-2008, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Casper
Does NOT LETTING anyone perish imply an absolute the same as FORBIDDING it, just as the moon is forbidden from falling to the earth? Obviously not, what with that free will requirement; it is a matter of making a life raft available to everyone at least once. I guess it comes down to seeing the justice in condemning a child for the sins of a long dead ancestor somehow being evidence that this same entity considers an individual child separate and solely responsible for their own salvation. I don't see why a second chance doctrine would be explicitly excluded, so we agree on that, but I think Philly is asking for a reason that it should be included.

You are kind of straying into the "all dogs go to heaven" realm, just being constructively critical (or trying to be).

No no..not at all...

My big point seems to be being over looked here... There will be BILLIONS of people that go to hell.......

All I am saying is.......the ONLY point I am making, is that for God to be consistent with the two items in scripture I keep quoting..

He cannot send someone to hell if they have never had the chance to receive Christ or reject Christ. Atheists always ask the "tribesman on an island" question. My answer simply is this:

No, no man will be condemned without first having the opportunity to accept Christ... he died for the sins of ALL man, not for the majority that CAN hear about Him...but for ALL..

This is key right here:

If one sin can eternally condemn ALL.......ALL mankind forever, then we have to find it impossible to believe that Christ's gift is not sufficient for ALL. Even though a newborn has never heard of sin, they are still born guilty of it..

I almost feel like I am not getting my point across very well...

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post #38 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-19-2008, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceStang
That's all you had to say right there. Arguing with an unbeliever about theological issues is pointless.

BTW, God's law is the only thing that really matters here. Problem with that is: EVERYONE has broken God's law.

OK, I'll stop right here before I start sharing the gospel with you.....
Just like arguing with a believer about logic.
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post #39 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-20-2008, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flashstang04
No no..not at all...

My big point seems to be being over looked here... There will be BILLIONS of people that go to hell.......

All I am saying is.......the ONLY point I am making, is that for God to be consistent with the two items in scripture I keep quoting..

He cannot send someone to hell if they have never had the chance to receive Christ or reject Christ. Atheists always ask the "tribesman on an island" question. My answer simply is this:

No, no man will be condemned without first having the opportunity to accept Christ... he died for the sins of ALL man, not for the majority that CAN hear about Him...but for ALL..

This is key right here:

If one sin can eternally condemn ALL.......ALL mankind forever, then we have to find it impossible to believe that Christ's gift is not sufficient for ALL. Even though a newborn has never heard of sin, they are still born guilty of it..

I almost feel like I am not getting my point across very well...
I see it, and I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but the argument does get argued scripturally both ways.
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post #40 of 40 (permalink) Old 09-25-2008, 09:57 AM
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