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post #1 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 11:09 AM Thread Starter
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Miracles?

Just like the title say, do you believe in them? If you do what do you think defines a miracle because im sure there are different perspectives on what a miracle is. And have you ever seen one or experienced one? Or do you think miracles are just a coincidence to what happens in life? I know the Bible speaks of Jesus and his many miracles but I'm interested in hearing everyones views on them.

Over five thousand years ago, Moses said to the children of Israel, "Pick up your shovel, mount your asses and camels, and I will lead you to the Promised Land." Nearly 75 years ago, Roosevelt said,"Lay down your shovels, sit on your asses, and light up a camel, this is the Promised Land." Now Obama has stolen your shovel..., taxed your asses, raised the price of camels and mortgaged the Promised Land!

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post #2 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 11:23 AM
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Interesting. I'm gonne set back and read on this one a bit before I respond. I'll leave it at Yes/No at this point.
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post #3 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 01:56 PM
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No. Really bad shit happens to people therefore, really good shit will happen to people too. It's all a coincidence.
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post #4 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 02:40 PM Thread Starter
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No. Really bad shit happens to people therefore, really good shit will happen to people too. It's all a coincidence.
So how about the people who have prayed or asked for miracles and recieved them, or even the impossible feats that happened according to the Bible? Such as Jesus feeding the 5,000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish, or Moses parting the Red Sea. Where do you think that fits in if they aren't miracles?

Over five thousand years ago, Moses said to the children of Israel, "Pick up your shovel, mount your asses and camels, and I will lead you to the Promised Land." Nearly 75 years ago, Roosevelt said,"Lay down your shovels, sit on your asses, and light up a camel, this is the Promised Land." Now Obama has stolen your shovel..., taxed your asses, raised the price of camels and mortgaged the Promised Land!
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post #5 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 04:16 PM
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I only see SIGNS.


"People break down into two groups when they experience something lucky. Group number one sees it as more than luck, more than coincidence. They see it as a sign, evidence, that there is someone up there, watching out for them. Group number two sees it as just pure luck. Just a happy turn of chance. I'm sure the people in Group number two are looking at that event/chance/luck(whatever something powerful) in a very suspicious way. For them, the situation isn't fifty-fifty. Could be bad, could be good. But deep down, they feel that whatever happens, they're on their own. And that fills them with fear. Yeah, there are those people. But there's a whole lot of people in the Group number one. When they see that event/chance/luck, they're looking at a miracle. And deep down, they feel that whatever's going to happen, there will be someone there to help them. And that fills them with hope. See what you have to ask yourself is what kind of person are you? Are you the kind that sees signs, sees miracles? Or do you believe that people just get lucky? Or, look at the question this way: Is it possible that there are no coincidences?"

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So how about the people who have prayed or asked for miracles and recieved them, or even the impossible feats that happened according to the Bible? Such as Jesus feeding the 5,000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish, or Moses parting the Red Sea. Where do you think that fits in if they aren't miracles?

I will play devil's advocate on this one. Well like popnut2 said coincidence if you pray and it comes true you just rolled a 7 and if it does not snake eyes. Well since I was not there and neither were you and unfortunately you tube was not around it did not happen. As far as what fits a miracle me hitting the lottery for 70 million just about sums that up.

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I'd fuck her and confess my love while using my wife as the mattress.

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post #6 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 04:46 PM Thread Starter
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I only see SIGNS.


"People break down into two groups when they experience something lucky. Group number one sees it as more than luck, more than coincidence. They see it as a sign, evidence, that there is someone up there, watching out for them. Group number two sees it as just pure luck. Just a happy turn of chance. I'm sure the people in Group number two are looking at those fourteen lights in a very suspicious way. For them, the situation isn't fifty-fifty. Could be bad, could be good. But deep down, they feel that whatever happens, they're on their own. And that fills them with fear. Yeah, there are those people. But there's a whole lot of people in the Group number one. When they see those fourteen lights, they're looking at a miracle. And deep down, they feel that whatever's going to happen, there will be someone there to help them. And that fills them with hope. See what you have to ask yourself is what kind of person are you? Are you the kind that sees signs, sees miracles? Or do you believe that people just get lucky? Or, look at the question this way: Is it possible that there are no coincidences?"




I will play devil's advocate on this one. Well like popnut2 said coincidence if you pray and it comes true you just rolled a 7 and if it does not snake eyes. Well since I was not there and neither were you and unfortunately you tube was not around it did not happen. As far as what fits a miracle me hitting the lottery for 70 million just about sums that up.

You lost me on the 14 lights, if you don't mind explain that to me.

To answer your other question yes, I do believe in miracles, I have seen and experienced a miracle as well. And that miracle was one that I prayed for. I can go into more detail on that if needed.

Over five thousand years ago, Moses said to the children of Israel, "Pick up your shovel, mount your asses and camels, and I will lead you to the Promised Land." Nearly 75 years ago, Roosevelt said,"Lay down your shovels, sit on your asses, and light up a camel, this is the Promised Land." Now Obama has stolen your shovel..., taxed your asses, raised the price of camels and mortgaged the Promised Land!
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post #7 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 04:48 PM
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So how about the people who have prayed or asked for miracles and recieved them, or even the impossible feats that happened according to the Bible? Such as Jesus feeding the 5,000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish, or Moses parting the Red Sea. Where do you think that fits in if they aren't miracles?
What about all the people who have prayed and asked for miracles and didn't get them? What about the bible being a fictional piece (meaning no hard evidence proving it's stories or claims ) of literature?
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post #8 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 04:54 PM Thread Starter
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What about the bible being a fictional piece (meaning no hard evidence proving it's stories or claims ) of literature?
You can say the same about a lot of things in history. Just because I've never seen George Washington doesn't mean that I don't think he's real.
To further comment on the no hard evidence proving the stories, well that's where faith comes in.

Over five thousand years ago, Moses said to the children of Israel, "Pick up your shovel, mount your asses and camels, and I will lead you to the Promised Land." Nearly 75 years ago, Roosevelt said,"Lay down your shovels, sit on your asses, and light up a camel, this is the Promised Land." Now Obama has stolen your shovel..., taxed your asses, raised the price of camels and mortgaged the Promised Land!
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post #9 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 05:11 PM
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To answer your other question yes, I do believe in miracles, I have seen and experienced a miracle as well. And that miracle was one that I prayed for. I can go into more detail on that if needed.

LMAO I did not know I had asked a question hahahaha Man I was just trying to be funny and quote the moive Signs with Mel Gibson hahaha I am laughing so hard right now.

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So how about the people who have prayed or asked for miracles and recieved them, or even the impossible feats that happened according to the Bible? Such as Jesus feeding the 5,000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish, or Moses parting the Red Sea. Where do you think that fits in if they aren't miracles?

I will play devil's advocate on this one. Well like popnut2 said coincidence if you pray and it comes true you just rolled a 7 and if it does not snake eyes. Well since I was not there and neither were you and unfortunately you tube was not around it did not happen. As far as what fits a miracle me hitting the lottery for 70 million just about sums that up. Ok I answer your question.

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I'd fuck her and confess my love while using my wife as the mattress.

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post #10 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 05:23 PM
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So how about the people who have prayed or asked for miracles and recieved them, or even the impossible feats that happened according to the Bible? Such as Jesus feeding the 5,000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish, or Moses parting the Red Sea. Where do you think that fits in if they aren't miracles?

Praise youtube I found a funny clip to help you out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o hope it works

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post #11 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 05:25 PM Thread Starter
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LMAO I did not know I had asked a question hahahaha Man I was just trying to be funny and quote the moive Signs with Mel Gibson hahaha I am laughing so hard right now.


I was just answering this
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Originally Posted by silvercobra03
See what you have to ask yourself is what kind of person are you? Are you the kind that sees signs, sees miracles? Or do you believe that people just get lucky? Or, look at the question this way: Is it possible that there are no coincidences?"
Sorry, never saw that movie so I didn't catch on

Over five thousand years ago, Moses said to the children of Israel, "Pick up your shovel, mount your asses and camels, and I will lead you to the Promised Land." Nearly 75 years ago, Roosevelt said,"Lay down your shovels, sit on your asses, and light up a camel, this is the Promised Land." Now Obama has stolen your shovel..., taxed your asses, raised the price of camels and mortgaged the Promised Land!
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post #12 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 05:28 PM
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I was just answering this

Sorry, never saw that movie so I didn't catch on
No it's my fault for assuming you watch the movie I FAILED On a side note I enjoyed the movie and since you are big into religion I think you might like the movie.

What about the link I gave you?

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post #13 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 05:33 PM Thread Starter
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No it's my fault for assuming you watch the movie I FAILED On a side note I enjoyed the movie and since you are big into religion I think you might like the movie.

What about the link I gave you?

I'll check the link when i get home, unfortunately I've been pwned by the man on the internet security at work. I find all religion very faciniating, i've studied and continue to study religion as a whole. Most people find it boring but it makes me think in ways I never have.

Over five thousand years ago, Moses said to the children of Israel, "Pick up your shovel, mount your asses and camels, and I will lead you to the Promised Land." Nearly 75 years ago, Roosevelt said,"Lay down your shovels, sit on your asses, and light up a camel, this is the Promised Land." Now Obama has stolen your shovel..., taxed your asses, raised the price of camels and mortgaged the Promised Land!
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post #14 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 05:34 PM
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Most people find it boring but it makes me think in ways I never have.

So does weed if you are ever bored. Cool let me know what you think of the link when you get a chance to watch it.

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post #15 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 05:40 PM Thread Starter
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So does weed if you are ever bored. Cool let me know what you think of the link when you get a chance to watch it.
Ehh, weed never really did anything for me.

Over five thousand years ago, Moses said to the children of Israel, "Pick up your shovel, mount your asses and camels, and I will lead you to the Promised Land." Nearly 75 years ago, Roosevelt said,"Lay down your shovels, sit on your asses, and light up a camel, this is the Promised Land." Now Obama has stolen your shovel..., taxed your asses, raised the price of camels and mortgaged the Promised Land!
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post #16 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 05:47 PM
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Ehh, weed never really did anything for me.
Don't mess with the swag the chronic is the way to the promise land.

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post #17 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 05:52 PM Thread Starter
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Don't mess with the swag the chronic is the way to the promise land.
Used to smoke it. My old manager was from Cali and drove out there every 2 weeks to buy it and bring it back. I've got A.D.D. so I'd just pop a couple Adderal if I wanted to mellow out.

Over five thousand years ago, Moses said to the children of Israel, "Pick up your shovel, mount your asses and camels, and I will lead you to the Promised Land." Nearly 75 years ago, Roosevelt said,"Lay down your shovels, sit on your asses, and light up a camel, this is the Promised Land." Now Obama has stolen your shovel..., taxed your asses, raised the price of camels and mortgaged the Promised Land!
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post #18 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 05:55 PM
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Used to smoke it. My old manager was from Cali and drove out there every 2 weeks to buy it and bring it back. I've got A.D.D. so I'd just pop a couple Adderal if I wanted to mellow out.
lol nice well anyways check out the link and let me know what you think it will give you a funny to look at prayer.

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post #19 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 08:36 PM
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post #20 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-12-2008, 08:49 PM
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Interesting. I'm gonne set back and read on this one a bit before I respond. I'll leave it at Yes/No at this point.
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post #21 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-13-2008, 07:48 AM
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You can say the same about a lot of things in history. Just because I've never seen George Washington doesn't mean that I don't think he's real.
To further comment on the no hard evidence proving the stories, well that's where faith comes in.



I don't remember any of my Amercian History Professors talking about the time George Washington rose from the grave.
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post #22 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-13-2008, 01:54 PM
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You can say the same about a lot of things in history. Just because I've never seen George Washington doesn't mean that I don't think he's real.
To further comment on the no hard evidence proving the stories, well that's where faith comes in.
No you can't. George Washington has ancestors. George Washington has a skeleton. I can't believe you actually posted that.
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post #23 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-13-2008, 02:58 PM
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I don't remember any of my Amercian History Professors talking about the time George Washington rose from the grave.
There are however provenanced portraits made during his lifetime, and provenanced documents with his signature, and a provenaced site recently excavated determined to be his childhood home.

Closest you get to Jesus is 200 years after the fact. That would be like someone putting a new face on the dollar bill in 1976 and calling him Stucky McJubbles, claiming he was the original president.
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post #24 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-13-2008, 03:00 PM
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So how about the people who have prayed or asked for miracles and recieved them, or even the impossible feats that happened according to the Bible? Such as Jesus feeding the 5,000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish, or Moses parting the Red Sea. Where do you think that fits in if they aren't miracles?
How do you separate them from superstition and myth? What is your dividing line? Or maybe you don't have one. If you can't tell a difference, then what does that tell you?
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post #25 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-13-2008, 03:08 PM
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There are however provenanced portraits made during his lifetime, and provenanced documents with his signature, and a provenaced site recently excavated determined to be his childhood home.

Closest you get to Jesus is 200 years after the fact. That would be like someone putting a new face on the dollar bill in 1976 and calling him Stucky McJubbles, claiming he was the original president.
Even history professors believe that a man named Jesus lived. The difference is that they don't all believe that he was the son of god.
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post #26 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-13-2008, 03:09 PM
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Chris Angel back in Jesus time would have ruled the world NO LIE!!!!

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post #27 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-13-2008, 07:44 PM
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Even history professors believe that a man named Jesus lived. The difference is that they don't all believe that he was the son of god.
A boy named Jesus lives down the street from me

There is considerable debate about there actually being a historical person from which the Christ logos originated. Historians, scholars, archeologists, theologians are in no way shape or form in any agrerement there.
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post #28 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-14-2008, 02:45 PM
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I have have had miracles as well as seen them happen to others. They are real, and not to just those that believe. I know people that have come to faith THROUGH miracles. You can't explain away someone delivered from a harmful addiction over night as anything but miraculous. Brain chemistry cannot be changed like that so quickly.

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post #29 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-14-2008, 03:42 PM
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Brain chemistry can be manipulated in a much faster time period than overnight. You are your brain's master. If you think it, it will be. Then again, maybe that's just because I believe it to be.

You cannot break a physical dependence on something no matter how much you think about it, overnight. You will still yearn for it. Saying no to whatever it is is the discipline part.

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post #30 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-14-2008, 03:58 PM
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So how about the people who have prayed or asked for miracles and recieved them, or even the impossible feats that happened according to the Bible? Such as Jesus feeding the 5,000 people with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish, or Moses parting the Red Sea. Where do you think that fits in if they aren't miracles?
Didn't read all the replies, but what about the million of people that pray everyday (or every Sunday) for miracles? Is god not online when those people go miracleless? Did they do something that god thinks is reason enough not to deserve a miracle?





"My daughter has terminal cancer, please god, let her be cured."


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post #31 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-14-2008, 04:09 PM
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The fact that these people are alive in the first place is one big miracle fulfilled for aech of them.
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post #32 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-14-2008, 07:05 PM
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The physical depepndance you speak of comes from chemical reactions in the brain. Yes you can break a dependance. I did.

If you broke it overnight with no more craving for whatever it was ever...then it was a miracle.

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post #33 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-15-2008, 07:02 AM
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I'd have to say i think its luck/chance? I'm not sure exactly what i'd call it. But when something good happens some people automatically say god/jesus w/e did this for me. He's listening. IMO faith is something i cannot grasp. I don't know why. But then again i only know enough to get me in trouble and not have a full on conversation. I think part of the reason people go to church or believe in any religion, is they want a reason to live? I live for me and my family. Our future and our well being. I've not seen a miracle in my lifetime that i know of.

Note** And i'd have to agree with winning the lottery would be a miracle!!
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post #34 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-15-2008, 07:28 AM
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Generally I pray for people other than myself, so you will not find me praying that I win the lottery. My going to church or believing in God is not to give me a reason to live, I already have that. Rather it to express my personal gratitude in public and with other like-minded people to the One who has given me the means to do so.
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post #35 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-15-2008, 07:48 AM
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My whole point was that you cannot define the supernatural using natural law. That is the whole difference between spirituality/theology and science. This garbage about what faith is or is not is meaningless; the difference is simple.

Religion attempts to define the scope of the supernatural, while science completely dismisses its existence.

If you believe you can discern between mere unfounded superstition and divine influence, then congratulations, your mind (not your just brain necessarily) has determined a scope for the supernatural. It is futile to attempt to merge science with the supernatural so don't even try.

Theology intentionally creates conflict because it is a method of defining the scope of something that cannot be qualified or quantified. That is why it has set mandates, orders and rules which are supposed to dictate the behavior of the universe. That is part of the meme.

Science attempts to reconcile conflict by limiting the parameters to quantifiable and qualifiable because it is a method observing behavior and then identify the orders, mandates and rules. Kind of a reverse-engineering of perception.

Is one superior? There is no comparison, they are not the same. Is one favorable? Again there is no way to compare them. They shouldn't be used that way.
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post #36 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-15-2008, 08:35 AM
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My whole point was that you cannot define the supernatural using natural law. That is the whole difference between spirituality/theology and science. This garbage about what faith is or is not is meaningless; the difference is simple.

Religion attempts to define the scope of the supernatural, while science completely dismisses its existence.

If you believe you can discern between mere unfounded superstition and divine influence, then congratulations, your mind (not your just brain necessarily) has determined a scope for the supernatural. It is futile to attempt to merge science with the supernatural so don't even try.

Theology intentionally creates conflict because it is a method of defining the scope of something that cannot be qualified or quantified. That is why it has set mandates, orders and rules which are supposed to dictate the behavior of the universe. That is part of the meme.

Science attempts to reconcile conflict by limiting the parameters to quantifiable and qualifiable because it is a method observing behavior and then identify the orders, mandates and rules. Kind of a reverse-engineering of perception.

Is one superior? There is no comparison, they are not the same. Is one favorable? Again there is no way to compare them. They shouldn't be used that way.
Well said!!
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post #37 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-15-2008, 11:26 AM
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Location: Denton County, Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper
My whole point was that you cannot define the supernatural using natural law. That is the whole difference between spirituality/theology and science. This garbage about what faith is or is not is meaningless; the difference is simple.

Religion attempts to define the scope of the supernatural, while science completely dismisses its existence.

If you believe you can discern between mere unfounded superstition and divine influence, then congratulations, your mind (not your just brain necessarily) has determined a scope for the supernatural. It is futile to attempt to merge science with the supernatural so don't even try.

Theology intentionally creates conflict because it is a method of defining the scope of something that cannot be qualified or quantified. That is why it has set mandates, orders and rules which are supposed to dictate the behavior of the universe. That is part of the meme.

Science attempts to reconcile conflict by limiting the parameters to quantifiable and qualifiable because it is a method observing behavior and then identify the orders, mandates and rules. Kind of a reverse-engineering of perception.

Is one superior? There is no comparison, they are not the same. Is one favorable? Again there is no way to compare them. They shouldn't be used that way.
Hey Casper, where do you get all your info. I mean, are/were you a professor of theology/religion. Your knowledge blows me away.
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post #38 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-15-2008, 11:38 AM
Musician for the deaf
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSnake1996
Hey Casper, where do you get all your info. I mean, are/were you a professor of theology/religion. Your knowledge blows me away.
Thanks but that was just my own philosophy which has grown and evolved over the years.

Lots of reading over a lifetime, and growing up with several different religious perspectives around me. Some very different. Lots of thinking and meditating. On crank even
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post #39 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-15-2008, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper
On crank even
Gotta open up the mind somehow.
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post #40 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-18-2008, 09:26 AM
Lifer
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MotoMan
Just like the title say, do you believe in them? If you do what do you think defines a miracle because im sure there are different perspectives on what a miracle is. And have you ever seen one or experienced one? Or do you think miracles are just a coincidence to what happens in life? I know the Bible speaks of Jesus and his many miracles but I'm interested in hearing everyones views on them.
Which Jesus performed these miracles, the man, or the god?
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post #41 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-18-2008, 09:30 AM
Lifer
 
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God
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post #42 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-18-2008, 09:59 AM
Lifer
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk
God
Has anyone else performed miracles before or after the Christ? If so, where they a god?
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post #43 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-18-2008, 10:18 AM
Lifer
 
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The Apostles were granted the power, through God, to perform miracles after Christ. Moses, again through God, was granted the power to perform miracles before Christ. They were instruments of God, but were not God.
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post #44 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-18-2008, 10:39 AM
Lifer
 
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What is a miracle, anyway?
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post #45 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-18-2008, 11:37 AM
Lifer
 
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An occurrence brought into being by God, above the limitations of man, his senses, and the natural universe.
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post #46 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-18-2008, 11:41 AM
Musician for the deaf
 
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So rain in a drought would not be a miracle?

A remission of cancer? I guess not.

Toyotas in NASCAR? Now we may be onto something, but prove that is not the work of the devil first!
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post #47 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-18-2008, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper
So rain in a drought would not be a miracle?

A remission of cancer? I guess not.

Toyotas in NASCAR? Now we may be onto something, but prove that is not the work of the devil first!

If you have 2 of the same event (rain in drought, etc) one can be a miracle and the other maybe not. It is related to the will of God and if prayer is involved.

Crossfit.com <--- no wimps allowed
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post #48 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-18-2008, 12:17 PM
Lifer
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper
So rain in a drought would not be a miracle?

A remission of cancer? I guess not.

Toyotas in NASCAR? Now we may be onto something, but prove that is not the work of the devil first!
Those occurences, outside of Toyotas in NASCAR, could indeed be miracles if they happened as a result of faith in God on the part of the recipients.

Toyotas in NASCAR? Blasphemy!!!!
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post #49 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-18-2008, 02:03 PM
Lifer
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk
Those occurences, outside of Toyotas in NASCAR, could indeed be miracles if they happened as a result of faith in God on the part of the recipients.

Toyotas in NASCAR? Blasphemy!!!!
Let's let some learned people in the Vatican determine if Toyota in NASCAR is indeed a miracle. It is not your position in this life to make a decision like that.
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post #50 of 99 (permalink) Old 07-18-2008, 02:26 PM
Lifer
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSON
Let's let some learned people in the Vatican determine if Toyota in NASCAR is indeed a miracle. It is not your position in this life to make a decision like that.
Learned people in the Vatican do not concern themselves with matters regarding NASCAR. Thus, persons like me outside the Vatican are delegated full authority to render a decision that Toyota in NASCAR is blasphemy if we so choose, and I do so choose.
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