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post #1 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-03-2008, 02:41 PM Thread Starter
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Force

Can and should one use force to make another person become a Christian?
What would be the results?
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post #2 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-03-2008, 02:50 PM
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I should think not....the Holy Spirit is more than capable of guiding a person to Christianity without force or coercion.
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post #3 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-03-2008, 03:14 PM
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How can you force someone to have a personal relationship with God?

<--Sheila
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post #4 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-03-2008, 04:05 PM
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Can you? no
Should you? no
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post #5 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-03-2008, 04:07 PM
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Being forced= no true commitment
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post #6 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-03-2008, 04:15 PM
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Thumbs up

lmgdao. "Believe in god or I'm going to kick your ass!!" Priceless.
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post #7 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-06-2008, 05:08 AM
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Right... take away a person's free will. I'm sure that would go over great with the Boss Man.
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post #8 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-06-2008, 11:53 AM
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Dammit. I thought this was gonna be about Jedi's.
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post #9 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-06-2008, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Denny
Right... take away a person's free will. I'm sure that would go over great with the Boss Man.
Whoever said that man had a free will anyway?

Uh oh. Did I just start a Calvinst vs. Arminian debate?
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post #10 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-06-2008, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by RiceStang
Whoever said that man had a free will anyway?

Uh oh. Did I just start a Calvinst vs. Arminian debate?
No, you just released ignorance.
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post #11 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-06-2008, 09:52 PM
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No, you just released ignorance.
Ignorant of what?
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post #12 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-06-2008, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by RiceStang
Ignorant of what?
You made the decision to post that, right?
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post #13 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-06-2008, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Denny
You made the decision to post that, right?
OK. I think you're assuming something I'm not saying. I see your point though.

I'm talking about "free-from-God" will. Is our will truly free from the sovereign power of God? Do we really "accept Christ" freely without the pull of the Holy Spirit? And if we do have this free will you speak of, then there must be a way to lose salvation as well. If you can choose God upon your own free will, then you can lose it just as well. Agreed?

Have you thought about these passages?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
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post #14 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-06-2008, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
You made the decision to post that, right?
Are you sure that it wasn't predetermined/he wasn't predestined to post that?


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post #15 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-07-2008, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceStang
OK. I think you're assuming something I'm not saying. I see your point though.

I'm talking about "free-from-God" will. Is our will truly free from the sovereign power of God? Do we really "accept Christ" freely without the pull of the Holy Spirit? And if we do have this free will you speak of, then there must be a way to lose salvation as well. If you can choose God upon your own free will, then you can lose it just as well. Agreed?

Have you thought about these passages?

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.

Romans 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
And? It's talking about what He has planned for all, but it is still our choice whether or not to do His Will.

Yes, we all are given the chance to accept Christ, though. Just because He knows before hand what is going to happen, doesn't necessarily mean it's predestined. It just means He know what we're going to choose.
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post #16 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-07-2008, 06:25 AM
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Charles H. Spurgeon.

"When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this...One week-night, when I was sitting in the house of God...the thought struck me, How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the Lord. But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment—I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, "I ascribe my change wholly to God."
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post #17 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-07-2008, 07:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
And? It's talking about what He has planned for all, but it is still our choice whether or not to do His Will.

Yes, we all are given the chance to accept Christ, though. Just because He knows before hand what is going to happen, doesn't necessarily mean it's predestined. It just means He know what we're going to choose.
Spoken like a true Arminian.

Anyway, this argument has dragged on for hundreds of years..... I respect your opinion, but just have a different experience than you. And I believe God is bigger than most people think. He is in full control of all things because he created all things, even my own faith.
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post #18 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-07-2008, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiceStang
Spoken like a true Arminian.

Anyway, this argument has dragged on for hundreds of years..... I respect your opinion, but just have a different experience than you. And I believe God is bigger than most people think. He is in full control of all things because he created all things, even my own faith.
That's cool, bro. I just believe that God loves us so much, He allows us to make our own decisions , even if He knows we're going to screw it up. It's the only way I can make any sense from people rejecting Him.
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post #19 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-07-2008, 08:46 AM
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"It is not His will that ANY should perish."

That seems to get twisted or sidestepped in the free will vs. robot debate. We can choose to do whatever we wish with our souls, plain and simple. It's the options that are limited.......

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post #20 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-07-2008, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flashstang04
"It is not His will that ANY should perish."

That seems to get twisted or sidestepped in the free will vs. robot debate. We can choose to do whatever we wish with our souls, plain and simple. It's the options that are limited.......
I believe I can agree to that.
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post #21 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-07-2008, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
Just because He knows before hand what is going to happen, doesn't necessarily mean it's predestined. It just means He know what we're going to choose.
That's called predestiny. You can reword it all you want, it boils down to God knowing beforehand what we're going to do, which means we are pre-destined. Which negates free will.

To rectify your statement in light of free will, it would have to go something like this: "Just because he knows beforehand that some of us won't choose him, doesn't mean it's predestined. It just means he knows that some of us will choose him, and some won't. Who will and who won't, however, he cannot know."

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post #22 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-07-2008, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DarkWolf
That's called predestiny. You can reword it all you want, it boils down to God knowing beforehand what we're going to do, which means we are pre-destined. Which negates free will.

To rectify your statement in light of free will, it would have to go something like this: "Just because he knows beforehand that some of us won't choose him, doesn't mean it's predestined. It just means he knows that some of us will choose him, and some won't. Who will and who won't, however, he cannot know."
All but the last sentence and you're golden!
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post #23 of 23 (permalink) Old 07-09-2008, 11:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkWolf
Who will and who won't, however, he cannot know."
That really sticks out like a sore thumb to me...

Maybe predestany isn't about knowing what will happen when that point in time comes, but knowing exactly what will happen with each choice we make (or not make.)
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