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post #1 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-30-2008, 09:17 PM Thread Starter
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What could Satan possibly think...

... that he could accomplish? If he even exists, that is. Just for the sake of this argument say that he does. So you have a guy, this being. His name was Lucifer the angel. One has to assume that since he was in heaven before he got thrown out, that he was in the presence of god all the freaking time. And even if he wasnt, he most assuredly belived that god existed and was a lot more powerful than he was. Now, knowing this, what could he have hoped to do? I mean wouldnt he have known that he was only going to be thrown out and fail to accomplish his goal? It says he wanted to be "like god" whatever that is supposed to mean. I guess it means he wanted to know everything. (which would mean that all the power is just the control of information, that one being has).

So why try? Why not at least get to stay where he was and not get thrown out of his home? And why is he so powerful? It would seem that maybe in some way, he nearly accomplished his goal. Even still, it seems that he at the very least thinks he can win. (what with the supposed coming of the anti christ and all) What does he know? Why would he think that if he indeed knew that god was all powerful and could never be proven wrong, or be defeated?

And no, i am not a damn devil worshiper. this is just something that has crossed my mind having heard the story.

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- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"

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post #2 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-30-2008, 09:26 PM
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... that he could accomplish? If he even exists, that is. Just for the sake of this argument say that he does. So you have a guy, this being. His name was Lucifer the angel. One has to assume that since he was in heaven before he got thrown out, that he was in the presence of god all the freaking time. And even if he wasnt, he most assuredly belived that god existed and was a lot more powerful than he was. Now, knowing this, what could he have hoped to do? I mean wouldnt he have known that he was only going to be thrown out and fail to accomplish his goal? It says he wanted to be "like god" whatever that is supposed to mean. I guess it means he wanted to know everything. (which would mean that all the power is just the control of information, that one being has).

So why try? Why not at least get to stay where he was and not get thrown out of his home? And why is he so powerful? It would seem that maybe in some way, he nearly accomplished his goal. Even still, it seems that at the very least thinks he can win. (what with the supposed coming of the anti christ and all) What does he know? Why would he think that if he indeed knew that god was all powerful and could never be proven wrong, or be defeated?

And no, i am not a damn devil worshiper. this is just something that has crossed my mind having heard the story.
Satan is enslaved to perhaps the worst of sins---pride.
Why did Satan do it? God's grace was removed from him.
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post #3 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-30-2008, 09:53 PM Thread Starter
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But thats what i am asking. How could any amount of pride make someone do something like that? Especially knowing what the consequences would be. I mean i have been damn prideful in my life, but not so much that i would face a certain gunshot to the chest, or a for sure getting ran over by an 18 wheeler.

Im assuming that because of who and what he was, that he was likely more intelligent than any living man ever could be. In terms of IQ at least. I mean angels are generally though of as higher beings than humans. they are higher up on the totem pole. So taking that into account, why try?

My point is: Something is missing from the story. He would know he was going to lose.

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- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"
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post #4 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-30-2008, 10:32 PM
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But thats what i am asking. How could any amount of pride make someone do something like that? Especially knowing what the consequences would be. I mean i have been damn prideful in my life, but not so much that i would face a certain gunshot to the chest, or a for sure getting ran over by an 18 wheeler.

Im assuming that because of who and what he was, that he was likely more intelligent than any living man ever could be. In terms of IQ at least. I mean angels are generally though of as higher beings than humans. they are higher up on the totem pole. So taking that into account, why try?

My point is: Something is missing from the story. He would know he was going to lose.
As soon as pride was in him, he was in disobedience and given over to it. You have to keep in mind that he took a 3rd with him, so free will was abundant. There were obviously feelings of jealousy, especially if the plans for making man were known at this time. Some think that man replaced the Angels as 'priority' in God's eye. If you are REALLY serious, I would suggest reading the 'Fall of Lucifer'. It is a novel and the best that I have ever read on the subject. It really gets you inside of Lucifer's head and the progression from that twinge of jealousy and envy to that all out pride that led to rebellion and war.

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post #5 of 47 (permalink) Old 06-30-2008, 10:53 PM
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in him wanting to be like God, i would imagine that would encompass a couple of different things. 1)eternal and 2)in control.

if he could control the masses, than perhaps he would be in a sense, eternal. but because lucifer is finite rather than infinite, than love will concour all because love is eternal, and God is love.

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post #6 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-01-2008, 07:27 AM
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But thats what i am asking. How could any amount of pride make someone do something like that? Especially knowing what the consequences would be. I mean i have been damn prideful in my life, but not so much that i would face a certain gunshot to the chest, or a for sure getting ran over by an 18 wheeler.

Im assuming that because of who and what he was, that he was likely more intelligent than any living man ever could be. In terms of IQ at least. I mean angels are generally though of as higher beings than humans. they are higher up on the totem pole. So taking that into account, why try?

My point is: Something is missing from the story. He would know he was going to lose.
Don't confuse the modern idea of Satan with the old testament evolution of henotheism to monotheism. What happens at the top happens at the bottom too.

Separate the old testament "Devil" from the new testament "Satan" first, and then see if that makes more sense. Then if you feel the need you can tie the two back together, but you'll have a better insight on how that might work.
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post #7 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-01-2008, 07:30 AM
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I bet it was a fight over a chick. It's always about chicks. I heard Satan's been training MMA, so we might see him try to make a comeback.
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post #8 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-01-2008, 07:34 AM
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Angels are NOT higher beings than us, for one. They never had the option to believe like we do. They are and will be God's servants in Heaven. We will share in the Kindom. I can see how Lucifer and a few other could get jealous.
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post #9 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-01-2008, 08:28 AM Thread Starter
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I consider a higher being to be more powerful, which they obviously are. And i would guess that due to their position, that they have access to information that no mortal man could ever know. That is why i would view them as higher. If only because of where they are.

And is it so wrong to be jealous of someone? Lets face it we have all felt it at one time or another in our lives. You cant help what you feel inside. If i think something is not fair i cant really help that. I mean i guess he must have acted on that jealousy, but i dont think anyone can be faulted for just feeling it.

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i think thedark1337 is a pretty cool guy. eh plays the game and doesnt afraid of anything


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- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"
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post #10 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-01-2008, 08:33 AM
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I consider a higher being to be more powerful, which they obviously are. And i would guess that due to their position, that they have access to information that no mortal man could ever know. That is why i would view them as higher. If only because of where they are.

And is it so wrong to be jealous of someone? Lets face it we have all felt it at one time or another in our lives. You cant help what you feel inside. If i think something is not fair i cant really help that. I mean i guess he must have acted on that jealousy, but i dont think anyone can be faulted for just feeling it.

Psalm 8:5

"For thou hast made him (man) a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour."

Angels are a little higher than us right now....but not in the future when we will judge THEM.:


1 Cor. 6:3


"Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?"

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post #11 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-01-2008, 08:36 AM
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I consider a higher being to be more powerful, which they obviously are. And i would guess that due to their position, that they have access to information that no mortal man could ever know. That is why i would view them as higher. If only because of where they are.
Nah. They just have different roles. Knowledge doesn't always equate to higher ranking.

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post #12 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-01-2008, 08:49 AM Thread Starter
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Ok well that also raises another question. If god is truly all knowing.. then why would he have created satan or allowed satan to be created? (i guess maybe angels could reproduce in some way? who knows) He would have realized that he was somehow different from the others, who did not act in the way that satan did. Some followed satan, but it seems doubtful that without him inciting it that they would have ever gone that far.

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i think thedark1337 is a pretty cool guy. eh plays the game and doesnt afraid of anything


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- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"
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post #13 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-01-2008, 08:56 AM
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Ok well that also raises another question. If god is truly all knowing.. then why would he have created satan or allowed satan to be created? (i guess maybe angels could reproduce in some way? who knows) He would have realized that he was somehow different from the others, who did not act in the way that satan did. Some followed satan, but it seems doubtful that without him inciting it that they would have ever gone that far.

Angles are not forced to do anything, just as we are not. We are bound by laws and if we break them then we must face the charges.. same with them. God had redemption as a plan long before Satan ever rebelled, yes, but that does not mean that God would take away his choice to rebel. You have to remember that God exists in all times at the SAME time...much like you and I would view a 2 dimensional picture on a piece of paper. He is not then, or now...He just is, all the time.

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post #14 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-01-2008, 09:08 AM
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post #15 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-01-2008, 09:33 AM Thread Starter
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Yes but wouldn't someone of tremendous pride not want any peers?

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- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"
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post #16 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-01-2008, 09:34 AM
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Yes but wouldn't someone of tremendous pride not want any peers?
Now what are you talking about?!?!
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post #17 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-01-2008, 09:36 AM
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Yes but wouldn't someone of tremendous pride not want any peers?

Satan didn't have any peers..he was #1. That is why he could convince them that he could do it. They knew that he was the big man on campus.

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post #18 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-01-2008, 10:18 AM
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If you really want paleographic and literary answers then you need to mentally separate the old testament from the new. The Satan of the new testament is a different literary device then the devil of the old testament and much more theologically evolved, similar to the notion of hell.

In the old testament you have the vestiges of a tradition of Canaanite henotheism evolving into Jewish monotheism. Especially if you include all extant writings such as those from Qumran.

Yahweh begins as a son of El and his consort or Asherah, to the highest son of El, to a replacement for El, taking El's consort and eventually becoming a lone force. The same thing happens in a mirror image to the rest of the hosts, as they get "demoted", and eventually made into servants, with one becoming an adversary. This dichotomy eventually evolves into an answer for the question of good and evil; why is there evil? Why do bad things happen to good people?

The dichotomy takes on neo-hellenist trappings with Christianity, with a faceless supreme and a faceless antithesis. Some early Christian movements replaced Yahweh or Jehovah entirely by designating him a "branch manager" sort of god, rolling satan and jehovah into one concept; others elevated Jehovah and put a face on him by inserting an avatar (christ), and likewise inserting an anti-avatar (the antichrist), in order to move these supreme forces of good and evil to higher (or non-earthly) planes. This spawned the early arguments about whether jesus was human or simply an apparition, and whether he came into existence at the whim of God or was a part of God that always existed and simply manifest itself at a certain time in the material world. There is even the essene tradition that has been proposed as a precursor to christianity and only applied to Judaism (Hellenistic, Apocolyptic, Messianic and unconventional but still Judaism).

Those on here who share a thological interpretation will have other ideas and explanations, other conclusions, based on things they feel inside, and you will have to evaluate them personally. I am only referring to the things you can see objectively and textually.

An allegory to this is fossils you might find buried in the earth. There may be several interpretations about how they got there and what they represent, but a secular geologist will base assumptions only on the physical evidence, leaving alternate theories involving the supernatural to those who feel they have defined the supernatural. I'm showing you the layers, the fossils and the dirt, and that is all.
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post #19 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-01-2008, 10:55 AM Thread Starter
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Now what are you talking about?!?!
Sorry i was referring to God that time. I mean why not have peers? Unless you fear to lose control.

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- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"
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post #20 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-01-2008, 11:01 AM
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Sorry i was referring to God that time. I mean why not have peers? Unless you fear to lose control.

A creator that is all cannot have a peer. It isn't really choice. It goes back to character and the question can God create a rock He can't lift. Of course, but He wouldn't. Then again we are guilty of ascribing human description to define God.

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post #21 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-01-2008, 11:05 AM
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Sorry i was referring to God that time. I mean why not have peers? Unless you fear to lose control.
There's no need for them. I think He's doing just fine the way it is. For us, well, we've fucked ourselves.
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post #22 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-01-2008, 09:24 PM Thread Starter
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To answer the guys here who are basically suggesting that i become a theologian... No. I believe there is a simple answer, even though none of us may know it until we are long dead. Kinda off topic, but does any of this ever seem a little strange to any of you? One titan like god, looming over everything and controlling it all? Sounds like something out of greek mythology.

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- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"
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post #23 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-01-2008, 10:53 PM
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To answer the guys here who are basically suggesting that i become a theologian... No. I believe there is a simple answer, even though none of us may know it until we are long dead. Kinda off topic, but does any of this ever seem a little strange to any of you? One titan like god, looming over everything and controlling it all? Sounds like something out of greek mythology.
Sounds more like Hebrew history to me
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post #24 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-02-2008, 07:12 AM
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Sounds more like Hebrew history to me
Sounds more Zoroastrian to me. At the roots at least
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post #25 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-03-2008, 09:36 PM Thread Starter
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What the hell is zoro asstrian?

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i think thedark1337 is a pretty cool guy. eh plays the game and doesnt afraid of anything


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- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"
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post #26 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-04-2008, 05:32 PM
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What the hell is zoro asstrian?
You are right, you shouldn't become a theologian


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrian
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post #27 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-09-2008, 11:57 AM
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Not that I believe in heaven and hell, but theoretically(sp?)...what if the "war" between heaven and hell is not a war at all, at least not as we see it. What if those places are just the embodiment of good and bad? Be good, whatever that means, and you go to heaven to be happy for eternity. Be bad, whatever that means, and go to hell, and suffer for eternity.

Just a thought. For every positive, there is a negative which maintains universal equilibrium.
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post #28 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-09-2008, 01:15 PM
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Not that I believe in heaven and hell, but theoretically(sp?)...what if the "war" between heaven and hell is not a war at all, at least not as we see it. What if those places are just the embodiment of good and bad? Be good, whatever that means, and you go to heaven to be happy for eternity. Be bad, whatever that means, and go to hell, and suffer for eternity.

Just a thought. For every positive, there is a negative which maintains universal equilibrium.

I think that most would agree with you on that. The war is not between Heaven and hell per se', it is between the "controlling" forces of each.

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post #29 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-09-2008, 01:24 PM
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post #30 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-09-2008, 07:57 PM
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I have been a Satan fan since 1998. Wish I still had his jersey, although I did get 2 of his autographs when I was in Buffalo back in 2000. Always hoped he go to the Kings but never happened.
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post #31 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-10-2008, 12:28 PM
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Not that i do or do not believe in heaven and hell. Because i dont know where to go with my beliefs but i wonder...If god did create this world and us humans maybe he left us to destroy ourselves because we are a failed race? Maybe he's moved on to a smarter/stronger race or experiment? Call me Crazy but maybe there is something small that we don't know about or can't see. Maybe we never will. Ahhhh What do i know? Carry on...
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post #32 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-10-2008, 02:19 PM
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Did the Catholic Church get Satan wrong?
If so, what is Satan's real role?
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post #33 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-10-2008, 02:54 PM Thread Starter
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Call me Crazy but maybe there is something small that we don't know about or can't see.


Oh, im willing to bet that is the case. Whatever the hell it may be.

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- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"
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post #34 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 09:27 AM
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I have been a Satan fan since 1998. Wish I still had his jersey, although I did get 2 of his autographs when I was in Buffalo back in 2000. Always hoped he go to the Kings but never happened.
He is busy vetting the Rangers lineup. He takes personal satisfaction in that.
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post #35 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-11-2008, 09:41 AM
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Did the Catholic Church get Satan wrong?
If so, what is Satan's real role?
It is a gnostic holdover that serves as a "bookmark" or a dichotomy for an ethereal creator; It is one way to answer the question of Good and Evil. There is a natural evolution of the concept in the Hebrew tradition so it was a natural fit. The planes of heaven and hell as physical entities are a side branch to this.

Another early Christian philosophy assigned a supreme God higher in the ethos than the god of material creation. The question of Good and Evil became one of spiritual and material. Hence many of the ascetics, and especially neo-platonist philosophers (imagine John the Baptist). Disdain for the material makes you closer to the supreme good God and removes the influence of the God of law, the Demiurge. No satan required.
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post #36 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-30-2008, 02:19 PM
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It is a gnostic holdover that serves as a "bookmark" or a dichotomy for an ethereal creator; It is one way to answer the question of Good and Evil. There is a natural evolution of the concept in the Hebrew tradition so it was a natural fit. The planes of heaven and hell as physical entities are a side branch to this.

Another early Christian philosophy assigned a supreme God higher in the ethos than the god of material creation. The question of Good and Evil became one of spiritual and material. Hence many of the ascetics, and especially neo-platonist philosophers (imagine John the Baptist). Disdain for the material makes you closer to the supreme good God and removes the influence of the God of law, the Demiurge. No satan required.
Did the concept of Good/Evil devolve from Spirit/Material by a lack or loss of understanding or education in these matters?
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post #37 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-31-2008, 01:00 PM
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Not that I believe in heaven and hell, but theoretically(sp?)...what if the "war" between heaven and hell is not a war at all, at least not as we see it. What if those places are just the embodiment of good and bad? Be good, whatever that means, and you go to heaven to be happy for eternity. Be bad, whatever that means, and go to hell, and suffer for eternity.

Just a thought. For every positive, there is a negative which maintains universal equilibrium.
The "war" you speak of is more against ourselves than is between "good" and "evil", at least that is how I precieve it. As Christians, we are no longer sinners, but that doesn't mean we do not sin or immune to sin. The battle is against sin, not sinners. Chrisians should love the sinner, not the sin.

Heaven and hell is about who has accepted Christ and who has not.
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post #38 of 47 (permalink) Old 07-31-2008, 06:56 PM Thread Starter
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These are all good answers, but it still leaves the question unanswered, really. The bible says that there will be some type of final battle. Well, the fact that there will even be a battle at all tells us that satan at least thinks that he can win. Why would he ever think that? Especially given his old job, before he was fired. Maybe he knows something that we are not told? I mean i am sure he knows a lot that we are not told, but in regards to him being able to take control. Who would fight if they knew they had zero possibility of success? Especially knowing what the price was going to be for their lack of success? Seems more likely he would just stop what he was doing wrong and ask for forgiveness.

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post #39 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-09-2008, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinsn95
These are all good answers, but it still leaves the question unanswered, really. The bible says that there will be some type of final battle. Well, the fact that there will even be a battle at all tells us that satan at least thinks that he can win. Why would he ever think that? Especially given his old job, before he was fired. Maybe he knows something that we are not told? I mean i am sure he knows a lot that we are not told, but in regards to him being able to take control. Who would fight if they knew they had zero possibility of success? Especially knowing what the price was going to be for their lack of success? Seems more likely he would just stop what he was doing wrong and ask for forgiveness.

First, let me say that I do not advocate one religion over another. I've yet to answer my own questions about God/Gods vs our existence. Anyway, one thing I've found that helps is try to avoid taking every single religious writing so literally. Not every verse scribed is meant to say "it will happen this way; for it is set in stone; book it".

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post #40 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-09-2008, 10:27 PM
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The "war" you speak of is more against ourselves than is between "good" and "evil", at least that is how I precieve it. As Christians, we are no longer sinners, but that doesn't mean we do not sin or immune to sin. The battle is against sin, not sinners. Chrisians should love the sinner, not the sin.

Heaven and hell is about who has accepted Christ and who has not.
Wow. I must have missed this, but this is a GREAT post! Cool points awarded to the bounty hunter!
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post #41 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-12-2008, 07:20 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobba Fett
The "war" you speak of is more against ourselves than is between "good" and "evil", at least that is how I precieve it. As Christians, we are no longer sinners, but that doesn't mean we do not sin or immune to sin. The battle is against sin, not sinners. Chrisians should love the sinner, not the sin.

Heaven and hell is about who has accepted Christ and who has not.
So as long as he is accepted, that person will not go to hell? I was raised in one of those churches where everyone is going to hell, and there is like a .0001% chance of getting into heaven.

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i think thedark1337 is a pretty cool guy. eh plays the game and doesnt afraid of anything


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- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"
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post #42 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-12-2008, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by justinsn95
So as long as he is accepted, that person will not go to hell? I was raised in one of those churches where everyone is going to hell, and there is like a .0001% chance of getting into heaven.
Oh you were church of Christ?

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post #43 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-12-2008, 08:32 PM
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Or Jehovah's Witnesses? Don't they believe only 60,000 people will go to heaven?

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post #44 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-12-2008, 11:05 PM Thread Starter
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Or Jehovah's Witnesses? Don't they believe only 60,000 people will go to heaven?
HA! If they said that in a sermon i would have to just laugh all the way out the door.
Yes i was raised C.o.C for 15 years thats why i asked what yall thought of them. I was curious what outside opinions would be. Unfortunatly, i cant be anymore. I can not agree with some of the things they teach.

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i think thedark1337 is a pretty cool guy. eh plays the game and doesnt afraid of anything


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- later on when i was about 16 i suddenly came to the realization that i had zero appeal to women and i said "i'm going to say i'm gay from now on"
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post #45 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-13-2008, 08:24 AM
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Or Jehovah's Witnesses? Don't they believe only 60,000 people will go to heaven?

No they started out believing that only 144,000 would go to heaven. When the church grew to more than that they had to change the doctrine because what was once the "catch" to get people into the church suddenly became something that was preventing them from massive financial gain.

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post #46 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-13-2008, 08:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justinsn95
So as long as he is accepted, that person will not go to hell? I was raised in one of those churches where everyone is going to hell, and there is like a .0001% chance of getting into heaven.
Correct.

I was also raised in that type of Church. It hurt my faith as a child. It wasn't until many years later when I started attending a non-denominational church, that I considered myself a Christian. It encouraged me to really READ the bible and to deepen my faith, and to find what Christianity was all about.
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post #47 of 47 (permalink) Old 08-13-2008, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Bobba Fett
Correct.

I was also raised in that type of Church. It hurt my faith as a child. It wasn't until many years later when I started attending a non-denominational church, that I considered myself a Christian. It encouraged me to really READ the bible and to deepen my faith, and to find what Christianity was all about.

X2 exactly

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