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post #1 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 06:56 AM Thread Starter
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Wow! I've received a lot of requests for this...

Since the PM's have been getting sent out, I've had a rather large influx in the requests to hear my take on what is going on with the world, where I think it's headed and how it ties into my personal relationship with God. Now, I've never been one to force my beliefs on anyone, but if asked, I'd be more than happy to share. I started sending these thoughts to people who PM me or just openly ask on the board. I know, to most, that I'm nothing more than a quack-job, tin foil hat, gun-toting, ultra conservative Christian, but there are some that look at what I say with an open mind and can constructively add their input or critique, which is more than welcome. So now, I offer to this public message board (because of popular demand) a brief summary of these issues. I'll put some of the questions I've received in quotes to let you better understand why I'm saying what I say.

Quote:
Why do you feel the need to stockpile weapons, supplies, etc. like it's the end of the world?
My beliefs are based from what the Bible tells me. There will come a time when I, as a believer, will not be able to exchange in trade. I’m sure by that time, I’ll have something figured, but for now the stockpile will have to do. Preparations need to be made for maintaining suitable living in the absence of an established government and its resources (ie: emergency responders, etc.).

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Why do you think these things will be happening now or in the near future?
You see, all my life, I've been in a Christian environment. Not really the 100% believing, though I thought I was at the time. In just about the last 10 years or so, I started really finding meaning to this world (other than my own existence). I got to reading the Bible. Not just reading along with some study group, but in depth reading, stopping and going back over it again until I fully understood what the message was before I continued. Anyway, it brought to light, in the prophetic side, many signs of things to come and what to look for. Being a typical mortal man, it's always easier to see than just believe, so I actually spent countless hours looking for anything, not no avail. OK, fine. So maybe now isn't the right time. With recent global developments, however, it's like reading the pages straight out of Revelations.

Over the last 2000 years, all the Bible prophecies have been getting bashed because there was no longer a State of Israel. Well, since 1948, there has been. Nobody even imagined that Israel would even become a nation again since they were torn apart in 70AD. Where else has a nation formed, almost overnight, mind you, and after 1900 years? Pretty amazing within itself. Anyway, the Book of Daniel talks about the Last Days starting with man's intelligence overwhelmingly going beyond grasp. Look at just the last 100 years. We were pulling wagons with horses to this! I can get online with my wife and kids from 12,000 miles away and talk video to video. It also talked about rapid transit. I can make it home in less than 16 hours, if needed. Look at the internet. Anyone can answer almost any question by looking it up. Knowledge is almost immeasurable. The prophesy about a one world government and one world currency has been made easily believable by organizations like the UN and currency such as the dollar and Euro. The resentment of ethics and morals are widely accepted. Biblical scholars have always believed that the Antichrist will be coming from northwest of Israel, which it kind of mentions in Revelations. He's going to be distinguished, well presentable, trusted by many, and deceiving. Sounds like the rise of Vladimir Putin to me. A one world religion? Well, high ranking bishops are already accepting Allah as an alternate name for God. Global Warming? Nope, but look at how many massive natural disasters have wrecked millions in one swoop. Earthquakes are plentiful lately, Katrina, the tsunami, etc.

So, back to Israel...

By following the Bible, it states that the whole world will eventually be centered around Jerusalem, which again never seemed like a possibility until about the last 50 years or so. But now you have to look at the fact that Jerusalem is the focal point for the three major monotheistic religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam). All three key in on the place that currently houses "The Dome on the Rock." Originally, this is the location that God sent Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac (Muslims believe it was his other son, Ishmael). Right here, this is the splitting point between the Christians/Jews and the Muslims since this is the spot where God intervened and blessed both Abraham and the son who would go on to lead His people. This is also the spot that the Jewish people were instructed by God (years after Abraham and Isaac) to build their Temple. This is the time when Moses led the Jews from Egypt. He gave explicit instructions on the location and the design. Throughout the years, the Temple had been attacked, torn down, and rebuilt.

Then we fast forward ahead to 70 AD. The Jews are once again run out of the land. The Temple was destroyed, and they weren't to be seen there until 1948. Now, going back to Ishmael's lineage, Abraham sent Ishmael and his mother, Hagar (Abraham's concubine) away because Isaac's mother, Sara (Abraham's real wife) wanted them dead, but God told Abraham to just send them away and not to worry because He will bless Ishmael to have many offspring and grow into many nations as well. Ishmael did not, however, receive the blessing of being God's chosen people. Now from Ishmael's lineage, of course, came Islam. It basically started from the teachings of the prophet Muhammad around 700AD. It's teachings, as well as Christian/Judaic teachings focus around God's personal relationship with Abraham. So this is why the Muslims built The Dome on the Rock because that is where they believe Ishmael got the blessing. It was built years after the Jews were driven from the land for the last time.

Now, back to Christianity. Christ came to be the Savior/Messiah for the Jews. At the time of His arrival, the Jewish people were still in the land, but under heavy Roman oppression. Literally occupied and running their land. The Jews thought that Jesus was going to be sent to save them, just them and from their immediate threats. They never looked at the big picture of "saved" and they didn't realize He was there for the whole world. Jesus, after His death and resurrection, spoke to one of His Disciples, to write the Revelation of Jesus Christ, years after Christ left this world. In this Revelation, Jesus tells His Disciple that one of the major occurrences is that the Temple in Jerusalem will be once again constructed in the same location. This is also where the Antichrist will declare himself to be god.

As of now, The Dome on the Rock still stands in the location of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. This posses a major issue for completing the prophecies. I do know, for a fact, that there are underground groups of people who are planning to construct the Temple... soon. This effort will cause Armageddon, which is also specified in Revelation, and just outside Jerusalem.

In the Bible (Old Testament with Moses), God commands that anyone who supports Israel will be supported. Anyone who blesses Israel will be blessed. Anyone who opposes Israel will face His consequences. He wasn't only talking about then.

Also, the second coming of Jesus (Last Days), He will bring in a New Jerusalem and creating a new earth, basically making Heaven on earth.

Quote:
Don’t you believe in the Rapture? Since the Bible says all Christians will be called up, wouldn’t you fit in that crowd?
Absolutely! Anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, believes that He died for their sins and was resurrected, will also fall into that category. The Bible does not, however, give a specific point at which such Rapture will occur. This is one of those situations that if I’m right, yippee for me. If I’m wrong, well, I just end up with a bunch of extra crap and lost time in preparation. Big deal. I think life won’t be worth the paper I wipe my ass on if all of this is bullshit.

Here comes the fucked up part. Remember when I said that part of what I believe lies with supporting Israel? Well, at the moment, we, as a country do. But what if our allegiance with Israel breaks? My basic priorities in life are : God, country, family… in that order. I guess you know where that leads. I’m about as patriotic as it gets, but once my country’s pledge to assist Israel ends, I’m not sure I’ll be part of this country. I hope it never comes to that, but in light of recent events over the last decade, I truly believe ANYTHING is possible.
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post #2 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 07:11 AM Thread Starter
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By the way... Barak Obama is exactly the type of person that the Antichrist would want elected to this country. None of these "End Times" events could be as easily attainable as they are today because of our strong, conservative history. These days, liberalism and the lack of morals that this country once instilled, are paving the way for the AC's easy entrance.
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post #3 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 08:24 AM
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good stuff denny. i believe as christians we should be prepared. not only be prepared physically but spiritually and emotionally. through my studies, i see that it can either turn upside down or it will not, i think perhaps more along the latter, although the ones looking and waiting for it would notice. but unfortunately, i believe alot of christians will be suprised in/on the day. not because i believe a rapture is going to take place 7 yrs prior or anything (kind of defeats the purpose and the "behold i come as a thief" found in revelation 15:16 but because the complacency of many and the wrong messages being preached by more. also, whatever will be implemented will be done so in small doses over a span of time in order to not throw red flags to the general populace because as we know "if it were possible, even the elect will be deceived" i think much of what is propagated by christians as a whole is dangerous.. not for the world, but for them.. it kind of "take heed that no one deceives you" and throws it out of the door.

imagine the scenario of the rapture taking place and the believing are gone.. and the great tribulation is upon the world.

now
imagine the scenario that the great tribulation is upon the world and all the christians that thought they would not be here.... are.

which one of the two is more subtle, and more dangerous?
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post #4 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
As of now, The Dome on the Rock still stands in the location of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. This posses a major issue for completing the prophecies. I do know, for a fact, that there are underground groups of people who are planning to construct the Temple... soon. This effort will cause Armageddon, which is also specified in Revelation, and just outside Jerusalem.
Can you explain this a little more? How do you know for a fact that underground groups are planning to reconstruct the temple? Any evidence?
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post #5 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 08:31 AM
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Absolutely! Anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, believes that He died for their sins and was resurrected, will also fall into that category. The Bible does not, however, give a specific point at which such Rapture will occur. This is one of those situations that if I’m right, yippee for me. If I’m wrong, well, I just end up with a bunch of extra crap and lost time in preparation. Big deal. I think life won’t be worth the paper I wipe my ass on if all of this is bullshit.

Here comes the fucked up part. Remember when I said that part of what I believe lies with supporting Israel? Well, at the moment, we, as a country do. But what if our allegiance with Israel breaks? My basic priorities in life are : God, country, family… in that order. I guess you know where that leads. I’m about as patriotic as it gets, but once my country’s pledge to assist Israel ends, I’m not sure I’ll be part of this country. I hope it never comes to that, but in light of recent events over the last decade, I truly believe ANYTHING is possible.[/QUOTE]


it does actually give a time when it will occur, through study of similar scripture it makes it very clear. the resurrection preceeds the rapture... and the resurrection occurs on the "last day" (see the book of john and the raising of lazurus, the discourse of jesus and marry/martha just before. there are several other texts that show the last day aswell. in either the book of john or the epistles of john. along with all of the other scriptures that give a timeline when looked side by side.
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post #6 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 08:34 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bobba Fett
Can you explain this a little more? How do you know for a fact that underground groups are planning to reconstruct the temple? Any evidence?
Heh... nah, I'll leave it at that right now. It's more a believe it or not kinda thing. OPSEC is part of the plan. I'm in no way involved in any plans, but I won't be part of their interference.
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post #7 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 08:35 AM
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Can you explain this a little more? How do you know for a fact that underground groups are planning to reconstruct the temple? Any evidence?
i may be wrong but they are called the "temple mount faithfull" and are in jerusalem. also, they have already prepared all of the ceremonial things in preperation of the construction of the temple. such as the priests garments, the breast plate of the highpriest and everything. they had an exhibit in dallas several years ago (6 or 7 maybe) so everything is prepared except for the building itself.

(them finding a pure red heifer is still up in the air though i believe)
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post #8 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 08:37 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by svtaaron
good stuff denny. i believe as christians we should be prepared. not only be prepared physically but spiritually and emotionally. through my studies, i see that it can either turn upside down or it will not, i think perhaps more along the latter, although the ones looking and waiting for it would notice. but unfortunately, i believe alot of christians will be suprised in/on the day. not because i believe a rapture is going to take place 7 yrs prior or anything (kind of defeats the purpose and the "behold i come as a thief" found in revelation 15:16 but because the complacency of many and the wrong messages being preached by more. also, whatever will be implemented will be done so in small doses over a span of time in order to not throw red flags to the general populace because as we know "if it were possible, even the elect will be deceived" i think much of what is propagated by christians as a whole is dangerous.. not for the world, but for them.. it kind of "take heed that no one deceives you" and throws it out of the door.

imagine the scenario of the rapture taking place and the believing are gone.. and the great tribulation is upon the world.

now
imagine the scenario that the great tribulation is upon the world and all the christians that thought they would not be here.... are.

which one of the two is more subtle, and more dangerous?
Right. This is more of a presentation to those outside the faith to see where someone like me is coming from. I'd invite others to share their views as well. Maybe things might start clicking for others.

I try to imagine those scenarios either way and end up with problems of various kinds.
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post #9 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 08:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svtaaron
imagine the scenario of the rapture taking place and the believing are gone.. and the great tribulation is upon the world.

now
imagine the scenario that the great tribulation is upon the world and all the christians that thought they would not be here.... are.

which one of the two is more subtle, and more dangerous?

Exactly right, and this also falls into line with the "great falling away" as we go further along in history, we see that each successive generation has less and less believers in it. There will be many that say "The hour is upon you" and Christians will be looking to the heavens wondering where their God is that they were taught in church would come to take them away. What will this do to their faith when the other side is blinding them with riches, peace, and temptaions. Now,....I hope that I am wrong, and I would love a pre trib trip, but I see no evidence to support it. Many say, "But we are not destined for wrath!" That is true....wrath from eternal hell, ..we have been saved from that. I always think of the disciples. They walked side by side with Jesus and even they weren't spared terrible deaths in all but one of their walks.

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post #10 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 08:43 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by svtaaron
it does actually give a time when it will occur, through study of similar scripture it makes it very clear. the resurrection preceeds the rapture... and the resurrection occurs on the "last day" (see the book of john and the raising of lazurus, the discourse of jesus and marry/martha just before. there are several other texts that show the last day aswell. in either the book of john or the epistles of john. along with all of the other scriptures that give a timeline when looked side by side.
Ya, but I'm talking about preparation for the Tribulation.
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post #11 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 08:58 AM
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Originally Posted by flashstang04
Exactly right, and this also falls into line with the "great falling away" as we go further along in history, we see that each successive generation has less and less believers in it. There will be many that say "The hour is upon you" and Christians will be looking to the heavens wondering where their God is that they were taught in church would come to take them away. What will this do to their faith when the other side is blinding them with riches, peace, and temptaions. Now,....I hope that I am wrong, and I would love a pre trib trip, but I see no evidence to support it. Many say, "But we are not destined for wrath!" That is true....wrath from eternal hell, ..we have been saved from that. I always think of the disciples. They walked side by side with Jesus and even they weren't spared terrible deaths in all but one of their walks.
when christains bring up that we arent destined for wrath, i remind them of the desciples aswell... along with the children of israel in the land of goshen during the plagues of egypt.
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post #12 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 08:59 AM
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Ya, but I'm talking about preparation for the Tribulation.
What has always kind of boggled me is this:

Is preparing with food, etc. a display of NOT having faith? God is our provider in all things, no? Why would we then need to prepare. OR, does he give us the common sense to prepare so that we can do it ahead of time....?

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post #13 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 09:20 AM Thread Starter
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What has always kind of boggled me is this:

Is preparing with food, etc. a display of NOT having faith? God is our provider in all things, no? Why would we then need to prepare. OR, does he give us the common sense to prepare so that we can do it ahead of time....?
My take on it is that He gave us advanced notice of things to come for a reason. I would think not preparing and knowing what lies ahead is neglect on our part.
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post #14 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 09:44 AM Thread Starter
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Denny, you know I firmly respect your beliefs as well as others, but I am intrigued to know how you take into account for all the religions before the big 3 that had similar messages. I feel the messages of end times were put forth in order to conserve the religion of the time. As I have read about other religions there seems to be a lot of repetitive warnings of the other religions sending you down the wrong path.

How do the earlier religions play into all of this? Where di their message come from?


FWIW, I still ponder the thought of my natural existence and all religions combined coming from the same source.
The Big 3 monotheolistic religions obviously had a unifying source, which is why their messages are similar. As far as End Times messages of other religions, my faith leads me to side biasedly to the Message given to me. All others seem pretty bleak and vague, thankfully.

But if it's any consolation, I had the same outlook on even the Christian Message for most of my life. Your preoccupation is exactly where I was prior to fully understanding His message. Good luck in your efforts.
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post #15 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 10:08 AM
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Denny, you know I firmly respect your beliefs as well as others, but I am intrigued to know how you take into account for all the religions before the big 3 that had similar messages. I feel the messages of end times were put forth in order to conserve the religion of the time. As I have read about other religions there seems to be a lot of repetitive warnings of the other religions sending you down the wrong path.

How do the earlier religions play into all of this? Where di their message come from?


FWIW, I still ponder the thought of my natural existence and all religions combined coming from the same source.


EDIT: These questions could be answered by anyone, as there are a lot of people here that are more informed on religion than me.

Not to derail this and this is all I will say on it in this thread, but all other religions require man to connect to God, through works, deeds, or actions. Christianity is the only one that offers a solution that is FROM God, and does not require anything other than one to sincerely accept it. We cannot in and of our own devices reconcile our sin nature, by works, or anything. It has to come from the Source.

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post #16 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 12:50 PM
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I need to get my end of the world preperation kit started.

I know there has been some debate as to the rapture. I'd always assumed that once the trumpets started, we were out of here! But IHOP out of KC had a teaching saying that may not be the case.

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post #17 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muffrazr
Denny, you know I firmly respect your beliefs as well as others, but I am intrigued to know how you take into account for all the religions before the big 3 that had similar messages. I feel the messages of end times were put forth in order to conserve the religion of the time. As I have read about other religions there seems to be a lot of repetitive warnings of the other religions sending you down the wrong path.

How do the earlier religions play into all of this? Where di their message come from?


FWIW, I still ponder the thought of my natural existence and all religions combined coming from the same source.


EDIT: These questions could be answered by anyone, as there are a lot of people here that are more informed on religion than me.
Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all have a common thread in the patriarch Abraham. Whether one chooses to accept Christianity or not is up to the individual, however all will have the chance to do so at the the time of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, regardless of their current religion or lack thereof.
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post #18 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 05:41 PM
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Couple of points to add to denny's remarks.

One world religion - already underway thanks to the fine people at the UN - the "united religions initiative" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...ons_Initiative. The idea is that since "religion causes all of the major conflict in the world" then if you force everyone to have the same religion then conflicts go away. It also ties into one world government in that the one world religion and the one world government will be closely tied (the bad pope & the antichrist will have a close working relationship).

As denny pointed out the temple mount presents an issue since there is conflict over it between islam, judiasm, and christianty. The bible speaks of "the confirmation of the covenant" which is apparently a sharing arrangement (ie: think middle east peace accord) for the temple mount that is reached thru diplomacy. In fact, the Jews have already been preparing to rebuild their 3rd temple on the temple mount in anticipation of this agreement being reached, and there have been some other interesting events surrounding this preparation (ie: appearance of a red heifer). Why is this significant? Because the antichrist will stand in the 3rd temple and claim to be god (the abomination of desolation), setting off the events that will shortly lead to endtime events such as the great tribulation and eventually armageddon. Thus, a 3rd temple has to exist.

I'm writing this off of the top of my head, hopefully I got it right.
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post #19 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 07:55 PM
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de·lu·sion Audio Help /dɪˈluʒən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-loo-zhuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. an act or instance of deluding.
2. the state of being deluded.
3. a false belief or opinion: delusions of grandeur.
4. Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.

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post #20 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 08:09 PM
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de·lu·sion Audio Help /dɪˈluʒən/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[di-loo-zhuhn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. an act or instance of deluding.
2. the state of being deluded.
3. a false belief or opinion: delusions of grandeur.
4. Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact: a paranoid delusion.
Why the constant fixation on posts in the theology corner? You would be surprised to find out who is really under the delusion here.

see 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
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post #21 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 08:21 PM
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Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all have a common thread in the patriarch Abraham. Whether one chooses to accept Christianity or not is up to the individual, however all will have the chance to do so at the the time of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, regardless of their current religion or lack thereof.
Wrong
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post #22 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 08:45 PM
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Why the constant fixation on posts in the theology corner? You would be surprised to find out who is really under the delusion here.

see 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
I'm good.

You would be too, pal.

I don't mean to ruffle anyones feathers, or incite a verbal riot.

But there are 2 sides to every corporate coin..

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It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
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post #23 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 09:06 PM Thread Starter
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You guys just have to understand Zara. He justlike a silent fart, trolls around this board until he can jump in and take a cheap shot without adding any substance to the topic at hand (whether it be good or bad).
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post #24 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 09:16 PM
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Thats not true, come on, Denny.

Take it easy man, nothing was directed at you, I was just throwing it out there.

You and I would have a lot to learn from each other, of this much I'm sure.

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This will help everyone out, check it.
It is time we acknowledged a basic feature of human discourse: when considering the truth of a proposition, one is either engaged in an honest appraisal of the evidence and logical arguments, or one is not. Religion is the one area of our lives where people imagine that some other standard of intellectual integrity applies.
-Sam Harris
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post #25 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 11:16 PM
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Thats not true, come on, Denny.

Take it easy man, nothing was directed at you, I was just throwing it out there.

You and I would have a lot to learn from each other, of this much I'm sure.
You insinuated he is/was delusional. Don't try to twist this into something other than what you posted.
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post #26 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-20-2008, 11:37 PM Thread Starter
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You mean he wasn't just posting a ramdom word of the day in this thread?
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post #27 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 03:56 AM
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You insinuated he is/was delusional. Don't try to twist this into something other than what you posted.
uUh what?

i posted a definition of a word that seemed to me to be relevant.

stop twisting this into something other than what I posted.

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post #28 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 09:02 AM Thread Starter
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God sent his only begotten son to die for our sins, correct.
well what happened to the people that died before this, did they go to heaven or hell. Did anyone prior to this event believe in only one god, or did everyone just worship false idols, or was this the birth of christianity. Anyone want to help me out with this
He sacrificed Himself for ALL. While it doesn't specifically go into detail about it, I believe that the only way for you to be damned to hell is if you reject His sacrifice. So, if you've never had theopportunity to hear His Message, how can you reject it? If the Gospel has been presented to you, you will be held accountable as to whether or not you reject it. I just can't see people going to hell if they've never had a chance to accept Him.

Salvation is not earned by good deeds. Actually, it's not earned at all. It's a gift. An undeserved gift. It's that simple.
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post #29 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krazy kris
God sent his only begotten son to die for our sins, correct.
well what happened to the people that died before this, did they go to heaven or hell. Did anyone prior to this event believe in only one god, or did everyone just worship false idols, or was this the birth of christianity. Anyone want to help me out with this
Before Christ came to earth and made the blood covenant between us and the father, the jews had to make a scarafice from the blood of a sacarifical animal (usually a lamb.) The innocent and pure animal was given in place of the sinful man's life. We were born into sin from the first Adam...since we are all copies of Adam and Eve. God sent Jesus, the second Adam, to bypass this replication and to establish a new blood covenant. The old testament is about the fist blood covenant with the Jews and the new testment is about our new blood covenant with Jesus and the birth of Christany.

From what I understand from the bible, the jews that died before Christ were in a "second" hell awaiting for Jesus to take them apon his death and resurection.
-(John 3:13) - "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man"

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post #30 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 10:19 AM
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Wrong
Very good of you to admit you are wrong. You're not the first to be of narrow viewpoint though, so don't feel too bad about it as long as you're willing to learn.

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post #31 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 10:21 AM
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Before Christ came to earth and made the blood covenant between us and the father, the jews had to make a scarafice from the blood of a sacarifical animal (usually a lamb.) The innocent and pure animal was given in place of the sinful man's life. We were born into sin from the first Adam...since we are all copies of Adam and Eve. God sent Jesus, the second Adam, to bypass this replication and to establish a new blood covenant. The old testament is about the fist blood covenant with the Jews and the new testment is about our new blood covenant with Jesus and the birth of Christany.

From what I understand from the bible, the jews that died before Christ were in a "second" hell awaiting for Jesus to take them apon his death and resurection.
-(John 3:13) - "And no one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven, even the Son of Man"
It's known in the Old Testament as "Sheol". It has/had a "good" side and a "bad" side, and God has complete power over both.
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post #32 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 10:23 AM
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You guys just have to understand Zara. He justlike a silent fart, trolls around this board until he can jump in and take a cheap shot without adding any substance to the topic at hand (whether it be good or bad).
And most importantly, no one cares.

How's it feel to be a nobody, Zurethra?
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post #33 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 10:23 AM
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It's known in the Old Testament as "Sheol". It has/had a "good" side and a "bad" side, and God has complete power over both.
Thanks for clarifying that...I don't really carry a strong knowledge of the old testament and was hesitant to expand more.
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post #34 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 05:00 PM
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He sacrificed Himself for ALL. While it doesn't specifically go into detail about it, I believe that the only way for you to be damned to hell is if you reject His sacrifice. So, if you've never had theopportunity to hear His Message, how can you reject it? If the Gospel has been presented to you, you will be held accountable as to whether or not you reject it. I just can't see people going to hell if they've never had a chance to accept Him.

Salvation is not earned by good deeds. Actually, it's not earned at all. It's a gift. An undeserved gift. It's that simple.
Why evangelize then? If your theory is correct, there is no need of Jesus if belief upon Him is not necessary for salvation. For instance, it would be far more dangerous for someone to hear the gospel and be damned in disbelief rather than never hearing it at all and be saved by default of not hearing.

Question: Who does God's wrath still abide on after Christ's death?

I seriously think you need to study up on your view of this.

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post #35 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 05:06 PM
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Very good of you to admit you are wrong. You're not the first to be of narrow viewpoint though, so don't feel too bad about it as long as you're willing to learn.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk
Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all have a common thread in the patriarch Abraham. Whether one chooses to accept Christianity or not is up to the individual, however all will have the chance to do so at the the time of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, regardless of their current religion or lack thereof.
Scripture please. Thx
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post #36 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 06:09 PM
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Revelation 20
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post #37 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 06:47 PM
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Scripture please. Thx


Philly, wasn't it you that I was talking with about predestination and God deciding who would be saved and who would not? If so, I am surprised to hear you talk about evangelism at all.

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post #38 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 08:33 PM
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Philly, wasn't it you that I was talking with about predestination and God deciding who would be saved and who would not? If so, I am surprised to hear you talk about evangelism at all.
A common misconception is that "if God predestines (Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:5, 1:11), why evangelize?"

Please see

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post #39 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk
Revelation 20
Specific passages to support your claim that -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk
Whether one chooses to accept Christianity or not is up to the individual, however all will have the chance to do so at the the time of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, regardless of their current religion or lack thereof.
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post #40 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 10:13 PM Thread Starter
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Why evangelize then? If your theory is correct, there is no need of Jesus if belief upon Him is not necessary for salvation. For instance, it would be far more dangerous for someone to hear the gospel and be damned in disbelief rather than never hearing it at all and be saved by default of not hearing.

Question: Who does God's wrath still abide on after Christ's death?

I seriously think you need to study up on your view of this.
I seriously have. Christ gave us a command to spread His Gospel to all ends of the earth, but just because there are people who haven't been reached, doesn't hold them liable. If anything, it should be the ones who aren't doing their part to get the Message out.

God's wrath abide to those who deny Christ's sacrifice.
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post #41 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 10:34 PM
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I seriously have. Christ gave us a command to spread His Gospel to all ends of the earth, but just because there are people who haven't been reached, doesn't hold them liable.
So they are not held responsible for their sins? Once again, why should the message of the Cross be preached if everyone and anyone will be saved without hearing it?

Quote:
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God's wrath abide to those who deny Christ's sacrifice.
God's wrath was on them before Christ came, notice 'remains'

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."


Why is the wrath of God coming?
Colossians 3:5-7
5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived.

God's wrath is because of sin
Ephesians 2:3
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
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post #42 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 11:25 PM
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from my understanding, the more you know, the more you are to be judged. which is more logical aswell. for if a child knew not to do something then his punishment would be much less severe as if they knew not to do it and continued to do it.
(i believe paul made a referrence to that in one of the epistles when he actually discouraged some to be teachers)

as for Gods wrath remaining on those who continue to deny Christ, i think that is more in referrence to the individual, they remain in their sins.
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post #43 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 11:29 PM Thread Starter
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So they are not held responsible for their sins? Once again, why should the message of the Cross be preached if everyone and anyone will be saved without hearing it?



God's wrath was on them before Christ came, notice 'remains'

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."


Why is the wrath of God coming?
Colossians 3:5-7
5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry. 6Because of these, the wrath of God is coming. 7You used to walk in these ways, in the life you once lived.

God's wrath is because of sin
Ephesians 2:3
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
Right! You just reitterated my point. "whoever REJECTS the Son will not see life."

So which one is the person who never had a chance to hear the message? He's not a believer. He didn't reject Christ. What about a baby that dies before he is of a state of mind to make the decision? What about the mentally retarded person? Are the people that have not heard the Message in their same category because of their ignorance?

Salvation under the New Covenant is a gift. An undeserved gift. It is not earned in any way. It's only demand is to accept the gift. It is soley up to each person to accept or reject. Each person has to reject the gift. It's not rocket science, bro. Quit sounding so Catholic.
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post #44 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 11:32 PM Thread Starter
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from my understanding, the more you know, the more you are to be judged. which is more logical aswell. for if a child knew not to do something then his punishment would be much less severe as if they knew not to do it and continued to do it.
(i believe paul made a referrence to that in one of the epistles when he actually discouraged some to be teachers)

as for Gods wrath remaining on those who continue to deny Christ, i think that is more in referrence to the individual, they remain in their sins.
Right. If Adam and Eve never gained knowledge from the Tree of Knowledge, then they would have never been held accountable because of their lack of.
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post #45 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 11:35 PM
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I'll add to my point. If salvation comes without need of Christ (a person not hearing the gospel) then why do these verses talk so much about a message of salvation for the gentiles. If your view is correct Denny, then the unknowing gentiles would not need the gospel message.

Isaiah 49:6
he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

Acts 13:26
"Brothers, children of Abraham, and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

Acts 13:47
For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' "

Acts 28:28
"Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

Romans 11:11
[ Ingrafted Branches ] Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
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post #46 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 11:37 PM
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The apostle Paul addresses this very topic actually. Can someone call upon the Lord if they have not heard of them?

Romans 10
12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
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post #47 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 11:43 PM Thread Starter
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I'll add to my point. If salvation comes without need of Christ (a person not hearing the gospel) then why do these verses talk so much about a message of salvation for the gentiles. If your view is correct Denny, then the unknowing gentiles would not need the gospel message.

Isaiah 49:6
he says: "It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the ends of the earth."

Acts 13:26
"Brothers, children of Abraham, and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.

Acts 13:47
For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.' "

Acts 28:28
"Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

Romans 11:11
[ Ingrafted Branches ] Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.
ALL NEED THE GOSPEL, but it doesn't mean all ears will hear it. Your logic is skewed as that you have a bit of the Old Covenant instilled in your head (as do the Catholics). That is why they Baptize newborns.
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post #48 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 11:44 PM Thread Starter
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The apostle Paul addresses this very topic actually. Can someone call upon the Lord if they have not heard of them?

Romans 10
12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"
Finish it...
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post #49 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 11:55 PM Thread Starter
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Hebrews 9:25 Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. (26) Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. (27) Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, (28) so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Did any of these people call upon Jesus?
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Luke 13:28 There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

Luke 16:24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

Pre-Christian Saints who were saved by faith
Hebrews 11:7 By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.

Galatians 3:6 Consider Abraham: ‘He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’ (7) Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’ (9) So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.

Romans 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? (2) If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about-but not before God. (3) What does the Scripture say? ‘Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’ (4) Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. (5) However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. (6) David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: (7) ‘Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. (8) Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.’ (9) Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. (10) Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! (11) And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. (12) And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised. (13) It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. (14) For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, (15) because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. (16) Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring – not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. (17). As it is written: ``I have made you a father of many nations.’’ He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed-the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were. (18) Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, ‘So shall your offspring be.’ (19) Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead-since he was about a hundred years old-and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. (20) Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, (21) being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. (22) This is why ‘it was credited to him as righteousness.’ (23) The words ‘it was credited to him’ were written not for him alone, (24) but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness-for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

And I think this is where svtaaron was getting to
Luke 12:47 That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. (48) But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
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post #50 of 139 (permalink) Old 06-21-2008, 11:59 PM
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Right! You just reitterated my point. "whoever REJECTS the Son will not see life."
God's wrath was on them before they even heard about Jesus, that's the point I was trying to make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
So which one is the person who never had a chance to hear the message? He's not a believer. He didn't reject Christ. What about a baby that dies before he is of a state of mind to make the decision? What about the mentally retarded person? Are the people that have not heard the Message in their same category because of their ignorance?
We trust that God will do what is right in those cases. Nevertheless, the Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death and that there is salvation in no other name under heaven except Jesus Christ.

Many of those that have never heard the gospel worship idols, nature, false god, etc. and yet we are to believe that they are still saved? Salvation is not owed to anyone, it is a gift of God by His grace.

Romans 1 says that all men are without excuse because of the testimony of God through nature.

Romans 1
19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Ephesians 1:13
And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation.

Acts 4:12, “And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved.”


Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
Salvation under the New Covenant is a gift. An undeserved gift. It is not earned in any way. It's only demand is to accept the gift. It is soley up to each person to accept or reject. Each person has to reject the gift. It's not rocket science, bro. Quit sounding so Catholic.
I never promoted that salvation was earned, I'm not sure why that is being brought up.

You are saying that people can be saved under false gods and false religious systems and yet accuse me of sounding Catholic? Who has the more orthodox protestant view here?

Last edited by Phillystang; 06-22-2008 at 12:10 AM.
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