Where are the Dead In Christ right now? - DFWstangs Forums
 
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post #1 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-03-2008, 09:54 AM Thread Starter
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Where are the Dead In Christ right now?

Quote:
1 Thessalonians 4

14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
Just wondering where all these "asleep" people are? Are we talking Abraham's bosom, Purgatory, Hades, or what?
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post #2 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-03-2008, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. B
Just wondering where all these "asleep" people are? Are we talking Abraham's bosom, Purgatory, Hades, or what?
Heaven. The Heaven right now isn't always going to be. After the Final Judgement, Heaven will be on earth. This will be a physical Heaven, not just spiritual.
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post #3 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-03-2008, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. B
Just wondering where all these "asleep" people are? Are we talking Abraham's bosom, Purgatory, Hades, or what?
I'm thinking dead.
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post #4 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-03-2008, 11:50 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Denny
Heaven. The Heaven right now isn't always going to be. After the Final Judgement, Heaven will be on earth. This will be a physical Heaven, not just spiritual.
But if "we who are still alive will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep" there's no way we could precede them... if they're already there. It sounds like he's saying they're not in heaven, and he wants us to know that they're way ahead of us in line. I'm just not convinced that believers go straight to heaven. I know that Paul also says "absent from the body, present with the Lord", but maybe the Lord's presence and Heaven are two different things.
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post #5 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-03-2008, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. B
But if "we who are still alive will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep" there's no way we could precede them... if they're already there. It sounds like he's saying they're not in heaven, and he wants us to know that they're way ahead of us in line. I'm just not convinced that believers go straight to heaven. I know that Paul also says "absent from the body, present with the Lord", but maybe the Lord's presence and Heaven are two different things.

the Lord is omnipresent, so that statement can really mean anywhere except hell.

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post #6 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-03-2008, 01:25 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flashstang04
the Lord is omnipresent, so that statement can really mean anywhere except hell.
I don't disagree... I was just hoping to avoid these blanket statements. And wouldn't omnipresence include Hell? Just saying.
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post #7 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-03-2008, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. B
I don't disagree... I was just hoping to avoid these blanket statements. And wouldn't omnipresence include Hell? Just saying.

In a word ..No,

The ultimate punishment in hell is not the pain, but the separation of our souls from God. None of us even know what it is like or how our spirits would feel without the omnipresence of God around simply because we are all alive. Even those that don't believe don't know how it would affect them if He was just gone all the sudden. Without the presence of God keeping things in His will, complete evil has reign over us. So no, it does not include Hell, that is why it is such a terrible fate. God cannot permanently co-exist with sin.

The ones that "sleep" have died and will be called to the final gathering before us who remain will, but they are not still in the grave at this point.

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post #8 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-03-2008, 02:34 PM Thread Starter
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^^^ Well put.

I see where you're going with it now.
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post #9 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-03-2008, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flashstang04
In a word ..No,

None of us even know what it is like or how our spirits would feel without the omnipresence of God around simply because we are all alive. Even those that don't believe don't know how it would affect them if He was just gone all the sudden. Without the presence of God keeping things in His will, complete evil has reign over us. So no, it does not include Hell, that is why it is such a terrible fate. God cannot permanently co-exist with sin.
When hell is spoken of in the Bible, what is talked about more- the pain because of a separation of our souls from God or the pain and punishment from God's very doing? I would be curious if you could produce even one passage that affirms your claim that ---
"The ultimate punishment in hell is not the pain, but the separation of our souls from God. "

I could agree if you are talking about the common grace that God has on all of mankind will then be removed, resulting in His divine justice and wrath on the wicked, but not your wording that it is the ultimate punishment because our souls will be separated from God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flashstang04
The ones that "sleep" have died and will be called to the final gathering before us who remain will, but they are not still in the grave at this point.
Keep in mind the separation of the body and soul when a person dies. At Christ's return the souls dead in Christ (who are now present with the Lord) will be rejoined to their bodies and be glorified bodies (like Christ's post-resurrection) and those that are alive and remain at Christ's return will be changed instantly into their glorified bodies without dying.
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post #10 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-03-2008, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
When hell is spoken of in the Bible, what is talked about more- the pain because of a separation of our souls from God or the pain and punishment from God's very doing? I would be curious if you could produce even one passage that affirms your claim that ---
"The ultimate punishment in hell is not the pain, but the separation of our souls from God. "
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
—2 Thessalonians 1:9

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
—Daniel 12:2



(Contempt:

1 The feeling or attitude of regarding someone or something as inferior, base, or worthless; scorn.
2 The state of being despised or dishonored; disgrace.
)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Keep in mind the separation of the body and soul when a person dies. At Christ's return the souls dead in Christ (who are now present with the Lord) will be rejoined to their bodies and be glorified bodies (like Christ's post-resurrection) and those that are alive and remain at Christ's return will be changed instantly into their glorified bodies without dying.

I don't see anything different than what I said....

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post #11 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-03-2008, 10:27 PM
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They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
—2 Thessalonians 1:9

And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
—Daniel 12:2


The 2 Thes. passage describes their future location, not a reason or cause for their pain. Let's look at more of the context-

6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power

If real pain comes from distance from God, how can it be said in this passage that the punishment comes when Jesus is revealed? Is it not Jesus who punishes them or is it the lack of Jesus as you seem to indicate that is the real punishment?

The Daniel passage using the word 'contempt' affirms my clarification of God's removal of grace.
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post #12 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-04-2008, 05:04 AM
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My understanding of the 2 Thessalonians and Daniel passages above is that at the Second Coming and establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth, those who reject God will not be sentenced to a place of eternal torment, but rather they will cease to exist in any form whatsoever.
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post #13 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-04-2008, 07:45 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Keep in mind the separation of the body and soul when a person dies. At Christ's return the souls dead in Christ (who are now present with the Lord) will be rejoined to their bodies and be glorified bodies (like Christ's post-resurrection) and those that are alive and remain at Christ's return will be changed instantly into their glorified bodies without dying.
Which scriptures talk about the souls dead in Christ being present with the Lord?
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post #14 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-04-2008, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. B
Which scriptures talk about the souls dead in Christ being present with the Lord?

"We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." [2 Corinthians 5:8]

This is where it comes from.


And Philly, seperation may be painful indeed, we just don't know. Nobody knows. We may have been created to only live in a world where God is present. Being without Him may me terribly painful to our soul. While the fires of hell would be eternal torment, I personally feel it won't chalk up to knowing that you rejected Christ for all eternity, and not being able to reach Him any more.

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post #15 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 12:50 PM
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Nerve endings and brain synapses turned to dust, nothing but bones, nope, don't see how any physical pain can be felt by a carcass.
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post #16 of 16 (permalink) Old 06-06-2008, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk
My understanding of the 2 Thessalonians and Daniel passages above is that at the Second Coming and establishment of the Kingdom of God on Earth, those who reject God will not be sentenced to a place of eternal torment, but rather they will cease to exist in any form whatsoever.
i beleive obadiah says something of that sort, "i will make them as though they were not" ..(cease to exist)

also, if you are dead, you are not in the demension of space or time, "measurements" so therefore you sleep until you awake. so being "absent from the body but present with the Lord" still applies, the two happening in an instant. because again, no space and TIME.
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