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post #1 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 09:40 PM Thread Starter
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Another God question

So Im taking Anatomy and Physiology I this semester at school and it's really pushing me to believe there is no way a single person could create such a complex creature as a human. I have found it hard to understand how a supernatural person could create a solar system out of thin air but I have moved past that.

Today we were learning about neurons and how the TRILLIONS of neurons in your body connect to each other. The neuron has a -70ma electrical charge and uses sodium and potassium to maintain the constant electrical charge. When a neuron receives a signal such as pain, the neuron collects the senses and translates it into a chemical signal. If the enough of the positive chemical signal (from excess potassium) meets the threshold of the axon hillux, the neuron then translates that into an electrical charge. The first segment depolarizes and sends the signal to the next segment of the axon. This repeats until it hits the synaptic end bulbs where the process is reversed and the electrical signal is then returned into a chemical signal. ACH goes out of the synaptic end bulb into the synaptic cleft and jumps to the dendrite side of the next neuron where the complete cycle start over. This happens millions of times within milliseconds. In fact, just me typing this message, Im sure I have used MILLIONS of neurons, thousands if not millions of times.

So what Im getting at...how does God create such a complex creature? Where did he get these ideas? This is one very small part of the complex human body. How did he think up the endocrine system, digestive system, and so on so forth and how they would all interact? And this is just humans we are talking about. How about all the other animals that we have and that we are still discovering. The whole process of photosynthesis in plants. I just cant fathom how a single person could create such a world with such complexity.

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post #2 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 09:55 PM
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Before I would give my input I would ask you if you think it could have all developed by random chance.

God did not have to "think up" these things. We are created specifically to adapt to our environment.

Consider Psalm 139:14

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.



Think of the wonder it takes to make a paper airplane to a 3 year old...

Is that any different? Only on a much larger scale?

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post #3 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 10:13 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flashstang04
Before I would give my input I would ask you if you think it could have all developed by random chance.

God did not have to "think up" these things. We are created specifically to adapt to our environment.

Consider Psalm 139:14

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.



Think of the wonder it takes to make a paper airplane to a 3 year old...

Is that any different? Only on a much larger scale?
you know..I completely agree with you that it is VERY hard to think that our world may have evolved from a single cell amoeba to a crazy complex creature such as a human...

As far as the airplane...yes there is a HUGE difference. My teacher is a doctor and teaches all 4 anatomy classes and still doesnt know 1/4 of how the human body functions. The current smartest person in the world I Marylin vos Savant...she has a 210 IQ and I can tell you should wouldnt be able to describe 1/2 of how the body works and interacts. I believe that the scale is so far off it is just impossible. Picasso can paint art, but he cannot paint the world.

I have no doubt that God could create such a "fearfully and wonderfully" human, but I cant comprehend the possibility that a single person could come up with something so complex. The physical anatomy and physiology that makes up the body is amazing. The thought of God sitting down one day and saying..."I think we need 206 bones...about 700 muscles, say 3 trillion neurons, 10 fingers, 10 toes, some ligaments, different types of skin, merocrin and apocrin sweat glands, and lets say a disease called HIV" may be just a bit far fetched

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post #4 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mpg
you know..I completely agree with you that it is VERY hard to think that our world may have evolved from a single cell amoeba to a crazy complex creature such as a human...

As far as the airplane...yes there is a HUGE difference. My teacher is a doctor and teaches all 4 anatomy classes and still doesnt know 1/4 of how the human body functions. The current smartest person in the world I Marylin vos Savant...she has a 210 IQ and I can tell you should wouldnt be able to describe 1/2 of how the body works and interacts. I believe that the scale is so far off it is just impossible. Picasso can paint art, but he cannot paint the world.

I have no doubt that God could create such a "fearfully and wonderfully" human, but I cant comprehend the possibility that a single person could come up with something so complex. The physical anatomy and physiology that makes up the body is amazing. The thought of God sitting down one day and saying..."I think we need 206 bones...about 700 muscles, say 3 trillion neurons, 10 fingers, 10 toes, some ligaments, different types of skin, merocrin and apocrin sweat glands, and lets say a disease called HIV" may be just a bit far fetched

My whole point with the air plane example is that what seems so complex to a 3 year old is very easy to us. Gods intelligence is so far beyond because He is all, so it is not a stretch for Him to design a creature to live in a world that He created..

I guess you are going to have to decide which scenario you are more comfortable with ....

Is it more possible that a god made a shell and gave it life. (much like we "give life" to complex machineries such as stangs. This would also seem infinitely complicated to someone who does not know anything about mechanics)

or

We developed over billions of years and through "beneficial" genetic mutations and arrived at where we are today.

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post #5 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 10:42 PM Thread Starter
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My whole point with the air plane example is that what seems so complex to a 3 year old is very easy to us. Gods intelligence is so far beyond because He is all, so it is not a stretch for Him to design a creature to live in a world that He created..

I guess you are going to have to decide which scenario you are more comfortable with ....

Is it more possible that a god made a shell and gave it life. (much like we "give life" to complex machineries such as stangs. This would also seem infinitely complicated to someone who does not know anything about mechanics)

or

We developed over billions of years and through "beneficial" genetic mutations and arrived at where we are today.
to be honest.. I cant pick a side. I find both hard to believe. I think we have more evidence of evolution than we do of God but it is up in the air in my opinion. How do we know God's intelligence?

I hope I dont offend anyone. I completely respect religions and think that it definitely has helped many people but I just have to many questions. I wish I could sit down with a very knowledgeable priest or some religious person like that and ask these questions.

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post #6 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-27-2008, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mpg
to be honest.. I cant pick a side. I find both hard to believe. I think we have more evidence of evolution than we do of God but it is up in the air in my opinion. How do we know God's intelligence?

I hope I dont offend anyone. I completely respect religions and think that it definitely has helped many people but I just have to many questions. I wish I could sit down with a very knowledgeable priest or some religious person like that and ask these questions.


to me I start from the other end. I know God's intelligence because any good thing in life comes FROM intelligence. For instance, how can a feeling thinking (and all the chemical processes that make up said reactions and results) human come from nothing?

I am not a priest and I am definitely not a religious nut, but I know some Christian heavy hitters in the fields that you are talking about. Feel free to PM me anything you do not want to go into and I WILL get you answers, even if I don't know them myself.

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post #7 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 07:50 AM
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You can't put natural boundaries on the supernatural.

Imagine not a god who created only this universe, but a god who created this and an infinite number of others, this one being only middle-of-the-road in complexity. And that is only the limit that we impose on it. Once you attempt to define the supernatural, you have left the world of logic and reason, and are on your own.

In fact I don't see why anyone would want to pursue that because there is no satisfaction available, you can make it up as you go along and still be correct, without even know it. If I said that God prefers Folgers coffee over Maxwell House, no one could dispute that succesfully because, well, how do you know?

I guess Pascal didn't completely think it through. Maybe he needed a cup of coffee
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post #8 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mpg
So Im taking Anatomy and Physiology I this semester at school and it's really pushing me to believe there is no way a single person could create such a complex creature as a human. I have found it hard to understand how a supernatural person could create a solar system out of thin air but I have moved past that.

Today we were learning about neurons and how the TRILLIONS of neurons in your body connect to each other. The neuron has a -70ma electrical charge and uses sodium and potassium to maintain the constant electrical charge. When a neuron receives a signal such as pain, the neuron collects the senses and translates it into a chemical signal. If the enough of the positive chemical signal (from excess potassium) meets the threshold of the axon hillux, the neuron then translates that into an electrical charge. The first segment depolarizes and sends the signal to the next segment of the axon. This repeats until it hits the synaptic end bulbs where the process is reversed and the electrical signal is then returned into a chemical signal. ACH goes out of the synaptic end bulb into the synaptic cleft and jumps to the dendrite side of the next neuron where the complete cycle start over. This happens millions of times within milliseconds. In fact, just me typing this message, Im sure I have used MILLIONS of neurons, thousands if not millions of times.

So what Im getting at...how does God create such a complex creature? Where did he get these ideas? This is one very small part of the complex human body. How did he think up the endocrine system, digestive system, and so on so forth and how they would all interact? And this is just humans we are talking about. How about all the other animals that we have and that we are still discovering. The whole process of photosynthesis in plants. I just cant fathom how a single person could create such a world with such complexity.
He didn't create any of this. It is called natural selection.
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post #9 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by flashstang04
My whole point with the air plane example is that what seems so complex to a 3 year old is very easy to us. Gods intelligence is so far beyond because He is all, so it is not a stretch for Him to design a creature to live in a world that He created..

I guess you are going to have to decide which scenario you are more comfortable with ....

Is it more possible that a god made a shell and gave it life. (much like we "give life" to complex machineries such as stangs. This would also seem infinitely complicated to someone who does not know anything about mechanics)

or

We developed over billions of years and through "beneficial" genetic mutations and arrived at where we are today.
I think the question really is, which has more evidence. There is tons of evidence that support the Darwinism point of evolution.

What kind of evidence is there to support Creationism/Intelligent Design?
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post #10 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 08:17 AM
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I think the question really is, which has more evidence. There is tons of evidence that support the Darwinism point of evolution.

What kind of evidence is there to support Creationism/Intelligent Design?
That is where I differ from you. I see evidence to the contrary, (Although that is all in another thread) and see evolution statistics to be weak and lacking ( in between species, certain self terminating type of mutations, etc, etc). So while you may see it that way, it is still your opinion.

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post #11 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Casper
You can't put natural boundaries on the supernatural.

Imagine not a god who created only this universe, but a god who created this and an infinite number of others, this one being only middle-of-the-road in complexity. And that is only the limit that we impose on it. Once you attempt to define the supernatural, you have left the world of logic and reason, and are on your own.

In fact I don't see why anyone would want to pursue that because there is no satisfaction available, you can make it up as you go along and still be correct, without even know it. If I said that God prefers Folgers coffee over Maxwell House, no one could dispute that succesfully because, well, how do you know?

I guess Pascal didn't completely think it through. Maybe he needed a cup of coffee

I see no biblical reason why God would not prefer Folgers....go ahead and TRY to show me other wise!!!!!!!

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post #12 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by flashstang04
That is where I differ from you. I see evidence to the contrary, (Although that is all in another thread) and see evolution statistics to be weak and lacking ( in between species, certain self terminating type of mutations, etc, etc). So while you may see it that way, it is still your opinion.
Are you saying that if these "gaps" were completely filled, you would believe in evolution?
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post #13 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 08:53 AM
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Are you saying that if these "gaps" were completely filled, you would believe in evolution?
No I wouldn't, because the gaps are not all that is wrong with it. I have believed in evolution in the past, but not once I started to study it, and this was all after becoming a Christian.

The gaps won't ever be filled anyway, because it would be impossible from my pov.

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post #14 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 08:56 AM
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I see no biblical reason why God would not prefer Folgers....go ahead and TRY to show me other wise!!!!!!!
That's an easy one. He is upset with the Jews for killing his son, and Maxwell House is a Jewish brand, therefore it is not a part of the New Covenant. Like circumcision and pork chops.

Although Maxwell house is still his chosen, it tends to make him angry and wrathful, and then remorseful afterwards. I think there is a Psalm about that.
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post #15 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 09:27 AM
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Proverbs 31:6

Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.

I did a word study and apparently and apparently as far back as the pentateuch people were given Maxwell House before being executed.


Coffee when you die,

Wine if your sad.......

Go figure..


Even through this mention I chalk it up to errant translation by King James, as he was an avid Folgers man.


Put that in your cup and brew it.

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post #16 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 10:31 AM
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LOL!

Everyone knows the king was a tea person. Duh!
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post #17 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 11:46 AM
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Ezekiel 4:9 (King James Version)

"Take thou also unto thee wheat, and barley, and [Folgers coffee] beans, and lentiles, and millet, and fitches, and put them in one vessel, and make thee bread thereof, according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon thy side, three hundred and ninety days shalt thou eat thereof."

Yet David succumbed to temptation, and we all know how that ended up:

2 Samuel 17:27-29

"And it came to pass, when David was come to Mahanaim, that Shobi the son of Nahash of Rabbah of the children of Ammon, and Machir the son of Ammiel of Lodebar, and Barzillai the Gileadite of Rogelim, brought beds, and basons, and earthen vessels, and wheat, and barley, and flour, and parched corn, and [Maxwell House coffee] beans, and lentiles, and parched pulse, and honey, and butter, and sheep, and cheese of kine, for David, and for the people that were with him, to eat: for they said, The people is hungry, and weary, and thirsty, in the wilderness.

Those silly Jews! They knew better, they were just contrary! Plus they probably got a kickback from Hiram Maxwell the coffee merchant.
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post #18 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
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I see no biblical reason why God would not prefer Folgers....go ahead and TRY to show me other wise!!!!!!!
thats another reason that sways me from the bible (I know you guys are joking around). The bible is open to a vast interpretation. One church may say being homosexual is okay and they use a verse from the bible to show their point. Then there is Westboro Baptist that says God hates fags and they have quotes from the bible to defend their statements. The same book shows completely different views.

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post #19 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 12:29 PM
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At least someone is paying attention

This is what is known as exegisis; reading between the lines to discover a deeper meaning. And as you said it can become very subjective.

If you really feel something is not right, then you should probably not accept it. After all, if a theist "knows in his heart" whether something is true or not they can't expect you to take their word but to trust your own instincts as they have.

I personally don't trust my instincts that well.
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post #20 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 12:54 PM
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I personally don't trust my instincts that well.
What is the foundation of your instincts?
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post #21 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 01:19 PM
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thats another reason that sways me from the bible (I know you guys are joking around). The bible is open to a vast interpretation. One church may say being homosexual is okay and they use a verse from the bible to show their point. Then there is Westboro Baptist that says God hates fags and they have quotes from the bible to defend their statements. The same book shows completely different views.

As someone else that has studied scriptural origin and languages, I think that even Casper would agree that if you are to dig into the root meanings of the Hebrew and Aramaic, that really, there is ,little room for interpretation. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the only things that would be open to subjection are things that there are really no good ways to interpret. Sometimes, you just have to find the meaning that is the closest. Unfortunately, this is often just off enough to give people free license to make something say what they want. Sad part of it is that most Christians depend on what they are told instead of researching it for themselves. This is one of the largest problems with the churches and their denominations.

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post #22 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mpg
thats another reason that sways me from the bible (I know you guys are joking around). The bible is open to a vast interpretation. One church may say being homosexual is okay and they use a verse from the bible to show their point. Then there is Westboro Baptist that says God hates fags and they have quotes from the bible to defend their statements. The same book shows completely different views.
The Bible must be viewed in its entirety to be of benefit to those who wish to read and understand it. A lot of the admonitions against certain behaviors you'll hear being quoted are rooted in the Old Testament. Jesus summed up the manner in which mankind should behave very well in the New Testament: love God and love your fellow man. Nothing you'll read in the New Testament will contradict that.
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post #23 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 01:52 PM Thread Starter
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The Bible must be viewed in its entirety to be of benefit to those who wish to read and understand it. A lot of the admonitions against certain behaviors you'll hear being quoted are rooted in the Old Testament. Jesus summed up the manner in which mankind should behave very well in the New Testament: love God and love your fellow man. Nothing you'll read in the New Testament will contradict that.
I guess I dont know much about the new vs old testament other than they are two different books with the same outcome. I might have to do some research this weekend.

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post #24 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 02:11 PM
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I guess I dont know much about the new vs old testament other than they are two different books with the same outcome. I might have to do some research this weekend.

They are "symbiotic"... The old test. foretells the new (the coming messiah) and the New fulfills the old test. prophecies. They are a complete work.

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post #25 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 02:11 PM
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Both Old and New Testaments outline paths by which mankind could come to know God. The Old Testament basically deals with the Creation and the First Covenant God made with His chosen people, the descendants of Abraham and Sarah and their son Isaac. By adherance to the laws which God gave to Moses, those chosen people, the Israelites, could come know God and be one with Him. The New Testament details how God later made a New Covenant with all mankind, including the Gentiles, through the gift of His son Jesus Christ. This New Covenant did not demand strict adherance to the Mosaic laws, but rather required only a belief in Jesus and following His teachings. Note that events in the New Testament were all prophesized in the Old Testament, thus tying the two together.
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post #26 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 02:42 PM
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Both Old and New Testaments outline paths by which mankind could come to know God. The Old Testament basically deals with the Creation and the First Covenant God made with His chosen people, the descendants of Abraham and Sarah and their son Isaac. By adherance to the laws which God gave to Moses, those chosen people, the Israelites, could come know God and be one with Him. The New Testament details how God later made a New Covenant with all mankind, including the Gentiles, through the gift of His son Jesus Christ. This New Covenant did not demand strict adherance to the Mosaic laws, but rather required only a belief in Jesus and following His teachings. Note that events in the New Testament were all prophesized in the Old Testament, thus tying the two together.
That is only if Jesus existed. If you read the book "The Myth of Nazareth" (http://www.nazarethmyth.info/home), it documents how archaeologists excavated the town of Nazareth, only to find that the city the Jesus "supposedly" lived in, did not even exist when Jesus was alive.
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post #27 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 03:01 PM
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That is only if Jesus existed. If you read the book "The Myth of Nazareth" (http://www.nazarethmyth.info/home), it documents how archaeologists excavated the town of Nazareth, only to find that the city the Jesus "supposedly" lived in, did not even exist when Jesus was alive.
Nazareth was a very small, almost unnoticed Galilean village. This is really not surprising. I wouldn't expect researchers to find evidence of me just by looking at the block I used to live on thousands of years from now. Materials then were not even built to last like they are now. They were mostly traders and fisherman. That is not one of the stronger arguments against Jesus' life.


http://www.uhl.ac/NazarethVillage/nazareth.html

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post #28 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 03:08 PM
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Nazareth was a very small, almost unnoticed Galilean village. This is really not surprising. I wouldn't expect researchers to find evidence of me just by looking at the block I used to live on thousands of years from now. Materials then were not even built to last like they are now. They were mostly traders and fisherman. That is not one of the stronger arguments against Jesus' life.


http://www.uhl.ac/NazarethVillage/nazareth.html
They may not find evidence of you, but they would find evidence of the town where you were suppose to live. They found evidence of a town, only that town came along long after Jesus was suppose to have lived.
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post #29 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 03:12 PM
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They may not find evidence of you, but they would find evidence of the town where you were suppose to live. They found evidence of a town, only that town came along long after Jesus was suppose to have lived.


Did you read the link provided?

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post #30 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 03:24 PM
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Did you read the link provided?
That link provides no information as to the date of the things that they discovered. It only says "Potsherds found on the surface of the terraces dated from various periods beginning with the early-to-late Roman Period." The Roman Period was from 44 BC to 486 AD. That is a big gap. The stuff they found could have been dated to 486 AD, they do not say.

They link I provided, shows a precise date of the items they found. Plus it also shows, "Gross misdatings of the primary evidence, sometimes involving discrepancies of up to 500 years, are frequently encountered in the Nazareth literature."
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post #31 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Way Cool Jr
That link provides no information as to the date of the things that they discovered. It only says "Potsherds found on the surface of the terraces dated from various periods beginning with the early-to-late Roman Period." The Roman Period was from 44 BC to 486 AD. That is a big gap. The stuff they found could have been dated to 486 AD, they do not say.

They link I provided, shows a precise date of the items they found. Plus it also shows, "Gross misdatings of the primary evidence, sometimes involving discrepancies of up to 500 years, are frequently encountered in the Nazareth literature."

I guess they all had it wrong...

TO TIBERIUS CAESAR:

A young man appeared in Galilee preaching with humble unction, a new law in the Name of the God that had sent Him. At first I was apprehensive that His design was to stir up the people against the Romans, but my fears were soon dispelled. Jesus of Nazareth spoke rather as a friend of the Romans than of the Jews. One day I observed in the midst of a group of people a young man who was leaning against a tree, calmly addressing the multitude. I was told it was Jesus. This I could easily have suspected so great was the difference between Him and those who were listening to Him. His golden colored hair and beard gave to his appearance a celestial aspect. He appeared to be about 30 years of age. Never have I seen a sweeter or more serene countenance. What a contrast between Him and His bearers with their black beards and tawny complexions! Unwilling to interrupt Him by my presence, I continued my walk but signified to my secretary to join the group and listen. Later, my secretary reported that never had he seen in the works of all the philosophers anything that compared to the teachings of Jesus. He told me that Jesus was neither seditious nor rebellious, so we extended to Him our protection. He was at liberty to act, to speak, to assemble and to address the people. This unlimited freedom provoked the Jews -- not the poor but the rich and powerful.

Later, I wrote to Jesus requesting an interview with Him at the Praetorium. He came. When the Nazarene made His appearance I was having my morning walk and as I faced Him my feet seemed fastened with an iron hand to the marble pavement and I trembled in every limb as a guilty culprit, though he was calm. For some time I stood admiring this extraordinary Man. There was nothing in Him that was repelling, nor in His character, yet I felt awed in His presence. I told Him that there was a magnetic simplicity about Him and His personality that elevated Him far above the philosophers and teachers of His day.

Now, Noble Sovereign, these are the facts concerning Jesus of Nazareth and I have taken the time to write you in detail concerning these matters. I say that such a man who could convert water into wine, change death into life, disease into health; calm the stormy seas, is not guilty of any criminal offense and as others have said, we must agree -- truly this is the Son of God.

Your most obedient servant,
Pontius Pilate

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post #32 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 03:35 PM Thread Starter
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Since we are still here... can you guys give me a basic timeline?

When did the Adam/Eve thing occur?

When did Jesus die?

When was the bible written?

Noahs ark?

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post #33 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mpg
Since we are still here... can you guys give me a basic timeline?

When did the Adam/Eve thing occur?

When did Jesus die?

When was the bible written?

Noahs ark?
Adam and Eve....never happened. Unless Adam and Eve wrote the book of Genesis, they would be the only ones with a firsthand knowledge of how the earth was "supposedly" created by god. Since the bible was written by humans long after the earth was created, this is theological "hearsay". When Genesis was written the authors did not have the scientific knowledge that we now have. They believed the earth was flat. It just doesn't add up.

Jesus "supposedly" died around 30 AD.

The gospels were written anywhere from 70AD to 100AD. That is 40 to 70 years after Jesus "supposedly" died. None of the writers of the gospels knew Jesus. The only person mentioned in the bible between the time of Jesus death and the gospels being written, is the letters from Paul, which were written about 50AD. Paul never knew Jesus.

Noah's ark...never happened.
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post #34 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 04:04 PM
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There you have it 8mpg. Don't rely on the postings of others, particularly in a car forum no less, to formulate your own understanding or not of the Bible. Read it for yourself and see what it says to you.
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post #35 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 04:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mpg
Since we are still here... can you guys give me a basic timeline?

When did the Adam/Eve thing occur?

When did Jesus die?

When was the bible written?

Noahs ark?

Here is one take on it:

http://www.wordsight.org/btl/000_btl-fp.htm

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post #36 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flashstang04
As someone else that has studied scriptural origin and languages, I think that even Casper would agree that if you are to dig into the root meanings of the Hebrew and Aramaic, that really, there is ,little room for interpretation. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the only things that would be open to subjection are things that there are really no good ways to interpret. Sometimes, you just have to find the meaning that is the closest. Unfortunately, this is often just off enough to give people free license to make something say what they want. Sad part of it is that most Christians depend on what they are told instead of researching it for themselves. This is one of the largest problems with the churches and their denominations.
That's often true. And it occurs often with names.

There was no Jesus or Yeshua in the greek texts, it was Isous. And for reliability all you have are Greek texts, with an oddball Matthew that may or may not be earlier.

It also happens in the context; much of the New testament was written to show how Jesus was prophecised earlier, based on who knows which version of Hebrew or Greek Jewish texts. So the debate over whether Bethlehem is historical or fictional (in the context of the birth narrative). Again you are often back to proper names.

Some of the issues arise from an attempt to pin historical events on prophecy. Words or phrases sometimes have to be vaguely interpreted to get actual history out of them.
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post #37 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by FSON
What is the foundation of your instincts?
Human nature, emotion, and perception. It isn't something to rely on
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post #38 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk
There you have it 8mpg. Don't rely on the postings of others, particularly in a car forum no less, to formulate your own understanding or not of the Bible. Read it for yourself and see what it says to you.
Unless he comes to a different conclusion than you of course.
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post #39 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 04:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Way Cool Jr
That link provides no information as to the date of the things that they discovered. It only says "Potsherds found on the surface of the terraces dated from various periods beginning with the early-to-late Roman Period." The Roman Period was from 44 BC to 486 AD. That is a big gap. The stuff they found could have been dated to 486 AD, they do not say.

They link I provided, shows a precise date of the items they found. Plus it also shows, "Gross misdatings of the primary evidence, sometimes involving discrepancies of up to 500 years, are frequently encountered in the Nazareth literature."
It is even more telling that Josephus chronicles all sorts of little one-horse towns but no Nazereth.

You would think he would know about Nazereth, unless he didn't know about Jesus. Forgot an important city of the savior, or had the Savior interpolated later? You have to make a judgement call.
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post #40 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 05:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper
Unless he comes to a different conclusion than you of course.
Maybe for you that is true, but not for me.
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post #41 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Way Cool Jr
Adam and Eve....never happened. Unless Adam and Eve wrote the book of Genesis, they would be the only ones with a firsthand knowledge of how the earth was "supposedly" created by god. Since the bible was written by humans long after the earth was created, this is theological "hearsay". When Genesis was written the authors did not have the scientific knowledge that we now have. They believed the earth was flat. It just doesn't add up.

Jesus "supposedly" died around 30 AD.

The gospels were written anywhere from 70AD to 100AD. That is 40 to 70 years after Jesus "supposedly" died. None of the writers of the gospels knew Jesus. The only person mentioned in the bible between the time of Jesus death and the gospels being written, is the letters from Paul, which were written about 50AD. Paul never knew Jesus.

Noah's ark...never happened.
lol, 100% unbiased answers right here folks.
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post #42 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Phillystang
lol, 100% unbiased answers right here folks.
Besides the bible, what evidence to you have to prove the contrary?
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post #43 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Way Cool Jr
Besides the bible, what evidence to you have to prove the contrary?
The Jewish historian Josephus, Roman historian Tacitus, Pliny the Younger governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, etc.

http://www.carm.org/bible/extrabiblical_accounts.htm

flat earth?

Job 26:7
7 He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;
he suspends the earth over nothing.
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post #44 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mpg
to be honest.. I cant pick a side. I find both hard to believe. I think we have more evidence of evolution than we do of God but it is up in the air in my opinion. How do we know God's intelligence?

I hope I dont offend anyone. I completely respect religions and think that it definitely has helped many people but I just have to many questions. I wish I could sit down with a very knowledgeable priest or some religious person like that and ask these questions.
In reality, there is virtually NO evidence in the fossil record of evolution. That is scientific and goelogical fact. You find plenty of progressive professors preaching (not teaching) evolution theory with no basis in proven fact.
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post #45 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-28-2008, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Way Cool Jr
I think the question really is, which has more evidence. There is tons of evidence that support the Darwinism point of evolution.

What kind of evidence is there to support Creationism/Intelligent Design?
Incorrect. There is no scientific evidence IN THE FOSSIL RECORD which would be the only real record of evidence we would have. In fact, the fossil record indicates evolution did not take place.
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post #46 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-29-2008, 02:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FWT03Term
Incorrect. There is no scientific evidence IN THE FOSSIL RECORD which would be the only real record of evidence we would have. In fact, the fossil record indicates evolution did not take place.
lmfao. um, no?
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post #47 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-29-2008, 09:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
The Jewish historian Josephus, Roman historian Tacitus, Pliny the Younger governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor, etc.

http://www.carm.org/bible/extrabiblical_accounts.htm

flat earth?

Job 26:7
7 He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;
he suspends the earth over nothing.
Doing research on Josephus, it appears the work that mentions "Jesus" was written 6 decades after Jesus supposedly died. So he did not have firsthand knowledge of Jesus at all.

Josephus also mentions 6 other Jesuses in his works, along with the Christian Jesus.

If you read the passage before and after the one that mentions Jesus, it passage seems out of context, like it was added later. Most historians now believe the passage was edit in the 4th century by Christian writer Eusebius. Historians have copies of the work of Josephus dating prior to Eusebius, and the mention of Jesus is not in them.
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post #48 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-29-2008, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FWT03Term
In reality, there is virtually NO evidence in the fossil record of evolution. That is scientific and goelogical fact. You find plenty of progressive professors preaching (not teaching) evolution theory with no basis in proven fact.
Are you serious? I could see you saying there are "gaps" in the fossil record or something, but to say there is "NO EVIDENCE".....

Definition of Delusion: something that is falsely or delusively believed or propagated b: a persistent false psychotic belief regarding the self or persons or objects outside the self that is maintained despite indisputable evidence to the contrary; also : the abnormal state marked by such beliefs

Last edited by Way Cool Jr; 03-29-2008 at 09:15 AM.
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post #49 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-29-2008, 09:28 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flashstang04
well... I started looking over the timeline and found many more questions...

4004 - God finished creating Earth and his final touches were Adam and Eve...who gave birth to 2 boys, Cain and Abel. This fact alone would not support the growth of the world. 2 boys dont make babies and if they did...its incest

3900 - Enoch has kids...who is the wife? Up to this day, Eve is the only woman.
Adam and Eve had another boy...still lacking women to procreate. It says Enoch had boys and girls..this could actually lead to the procreation to support the human race.
How did Seth live 912 years?
Irad was an incest baby... Grandpa Cain should be proud

3800 - Enos lives 905 years... how?
Enos prevented marriages with Cain's descendants...therefore again incest was the basis of the human foundation?

Am I the only one that finds it impossible for someone to live 1000 years? We can see from historical statistics that people lived shorter lives in the past and that our average life is getting longer through medicine and technology.

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post #50 of 116 (permalink) Old 03-29-2008, 09:49 AM
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Remember not to try to pigeonhole all of the acts of God into the limits of human understanding and timelines. The only act of God that I know of that was completely within the realm of human understanding was the gift of His Son, Jesus Christ.

With respect to Adam and Eve and their descendants, the Bible does not stipulate that Cain and Abel were their only offspring. Note that women in Old Testament times were generally relegated to being second-class citizens, and receive much less recognition and/or mention than their male counterparts, until the New Testament writings.
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