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post #1 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 09:10 PM Thread Starter
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Church questions

What is Lent and why do people not eat meat? My girlfriend's family is Catholic and are currently in Lent. They eat meat Saturday through Thursday but Friday is off limits.... Why? Why would Jesus want people to starve themselves?

My friend is Greek Orthodox and they do not eat meat the whole time of lent... why? Why are the two religions different when they have the same beliefs?

Why should someone donate 10% of their income to church? Who set the percentage and why?

Why are people forgiven for terrible sins such as murder? Why can they go to heaven after being forgiven?



Im sure I will think of more questions but after dating my girlfriend for the last 3 years, there have been many questions that I have had about religion.

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post #2 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mpg
What is Lent and why do people not eat meat? My girlfriend's family is Catholic and are currently in Lent. They eat meat Saturday through Thursday but Friday is off limits.... Why? Why would Jesus want people to starve themselves?

My friend is Greek Orthodox and they do not eat meat the whole time of lent... why? Why are the two religions different when they have the same beliefs?

Why should someone donate 10% of their income to church? Who set the percentage and why?

Why are people forgiven for terrible sins such as murder? Why can they go to heaven after being forgiven?



Im sure I will think of more questions but after dating my girlfriend for the last 3 years, there have been many questions that I have had about religion.
As for lent, it is a tradition borrowed from pagan worship and is not found in your Bible.

http://www.thercg.org/books/ttooe.html

[According to Johannes Cassianus, who wrote in the fifth century, “Howbeit you should know, that as long as the primitive church retained its perfection unbroken, this observance ofLent did not exist” ( First Conference Abbot Theonas, chapter 30). There is neither biblical nor historical record of Christ, the apostles or the early Church participating in the Lenten season.

Since there is no instruction to observe Lent in the Bible, where did it come from? A forty-day abstinence period was anciently observed in honor of the pagan gods Osiris, Adonis and Tammuz (John Landseer, Sabaean Researches, pp. 111, 112). Alexander Hislops, The Two Babylons, pp. 104-105, says this of the origin of Lent: “The forty days abstinence of Lent was directly borrowed from the worshippers of the Babylonian goddess. Such a Lent of forty days, in the spring of the year, is still observed by the Yezidis or Pagan Devil-worshippers of Koordistan, who have inherited it from their early masters, the Babylonians. Such a Lent of forty days was held in spring by the Pagan Mexicans…Such a Lent of forty days was observed in Egypt…”]
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post #3 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mpg
Why are the two religions different when they have the same beliefs?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East-West_Schism

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mpg
Why should someone donate 10% of their income to church? Who set the percentage and why?
From one of my favorite Bible teachers, Pastor Jim McClarty, responding to an article by a Mr. R.A.

[ "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity; for God loveth a cheerful giver." (2 Cor. 9:7)

That is, in fact, a specific rescinding of the tithe in the New Testament, despite R.A.'s claims to the contrary. The tithe was given "of necessity." It was not a matter of the heart. It was often given grudgingly, as so much of the Law was performed. But, Paul took the exact opposite approach and declared that New Covenant people would give according to how God moved on their hearts. The infilling Spirit was to drive their charity, not the letter of the law, which was external to men and grievously born. The Spirit of God, moving on His people's hearts, will produce charitable giving, because God loves cheerful (hilarious) giving.
So, according to Paul, how is giving to be done? Not by a specific standard, like 10%. Not by guilt and pressure; not grudgingly; not of necessity in order to avoid curses. The tithe (which Paul never once advocated) was just the opposite of that description.
By the way, if Paul did indeed continue to believe that tithing was a necessity in the New Covenant Church, then he did the Church in Corinth no favor. His lack of a command for systematic, legalistic tithing would surely bring God's curse to them. But Paul, as I said, never mentioned it.
Of course, the common argument in response to Paul's lack of tithing commandment is that the Church would have naturally tithed, so Paul did not need to bring it up. But, that's not true. The First Century Gentile Church, to which Paul was an Apostle, was unfamiliar with the Law of Moses and would not have been "naturally" tithing. They would need to be taught to tithe. But, Paul never mentioned it. Instead, he promulgated his theology of giving according to one's heart.]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mpg
Why are people forgiven for terrible sins such as murder?
We should be asking why is anyone forgiven for any sin? The wages of sin is death, not just the big sins, but the small ones like lying and dishonoring parents.
Jesus took the idea of murder further...
1 John 3:15
Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mpg
Why can they go to heaven after being forgiven?
God can forgive sins because Christ took the place of sinners by bearing our sin and taking God's wrath that was due justly towards us. If Christ died for those sins, they are no longer charged against the ones who did them. Our sins were placed on Christ and were dealt with on the cross, while His righteousness is credited to our account by His grace through faith in His finished work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 8mpg
Im sure I will think of more questions but after dating my girlfriend for the last 3 years, there have been many questions that I have had about religion.
You will no doubt get more answers below this, some that may disagree with me, test all things by God's Word the Bible.
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post #4 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 10:05 PM
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post #5 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 04:46 AM
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Originally Posted by 8mpg
What is Lent and why do people not eat meat? My girlfriend's family is Catholic and are currently in Lent. They eat meat Saturday through Thursday but Friday is off limits.... Why? Why would Jesus want people to starve themselves?
Lent is the means by which a Christian can honor Jesus withdrawal into the wilderness for 40 days, during which he fasted and prayed in preparation for the trials that lay ahead of him. Abstaining from meat is a symbolic gesture of a Christian giving something up in similar fashion, and by the way, giving up meat one day out seven is hardly going to cause a person to "starve themselves" LOL
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post #6 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 05:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk
Lent is the means by which a Christian can honor Jesus withdrawal into the wilderness for 40 days, during which he fasted and prayed in preparation for the trials that lay ahead of him. Abstaining from meat is a symbolic gesture of a Christian giving something up in similar fashion, and by the way, giving up meat one day out seven is hardly going to cause a person to "starve themselves" LOL
just one more pagan ritual to add to the list
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post #7 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 07:26 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk
Lent is the means by which a Christian can honor Jesus withdrawal into the wilderness for 40 days, during which he fasted and prayed in preparation for the trials that lay ahead of him. Abstaining from meat is a symbolic gesture of a Christian giving something up in similar fashion, and by the way, giving up meat one day out seven is hardly going to cause a person to "starve themselves" LOL
My friend's family is Greek Orthodox and dont eat meat for 40 days

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post #8 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Phillystang

God can forgive sins because Christ took the place of sinners by bearing our sin and taking God's wrath that was due justly towards us. If Christ died for those sins, they are no longer charged against the ones who did them. Our sins were placed on Christ and were dealt with on the cross, while His righteousness is credited to our account by His grace through faith in His finished work.

Philly.. allow me to play devil's advocate for a second because no one has asked this yet and it is only a matter of time....I would answer it but nobody asked it.


"So does that mean I can go kill and rape and do what I want and then ask Christ to save me at the last minute and get to heaven? How is that fair?"

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post #9 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flashstang04
Philly.. allow me to play devil's advocate for a second because no one has asked this yet and it is only a matter of time....I would answer it but nobody asked it.


"So does that mean I can go kill and rape and do what I want and then ask Christ to save me at the last minute and get to heaven? How is that fair?"
I'm glad you asked. Part of God's work in forgiving a person and saving them is that He makes them a new creature. It is a supernatural work of God, not merely a person giving a mental assent to a set of facts. It is called regeneration, or being born again. Sinful habits drop, new desires for holiness and godliness form. A Christian can fall into sin, but he won't stay in it, it will make him sick and God will discipline him to bring him back. If there is never signs of sanctification going on throughout the life of a professed believer, then it is fair to say that he hasn't been born again.

John 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

John 3:6-8
6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

2 Corinthians 5:16-18
17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

Romans 6:6
For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin—

Ephesians 4:22
You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;

Regarding your question more specifically, if someone had that mindset, that they would try to make a last minute fire insurance plea for forgiveness just to save their own skin, that's a tough one. The person with that mindset is carrying around a lot of pride and presumption upon God, mocking Him through most of His life. Let me just say that if it were a genuine cry for forgiveness, then they will have abandoned that mindset and humbled themselves before God.

Psalm 149:4
For the LORD takes delight in his people; he crowns the humble with salvation.

Last edited by Phillystang; 03-12-2008 at 12:43 PM.
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post #10 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 12:38 PM
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Hmmm, then where do some of the murderous zealots get their sanctification?

It becomes a very twisted web. I'll stick with immorality based on instinct.
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post #11 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 12:40 PM Thread Starter
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Another question..

If God created Earth...what about the rest of the solar system?

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post #12 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 12:42 PM
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Hmmm, then where do some of the murderous zealots get their sanctification?

It becomes a very twisted web. I'll stick with immorality based on instinct.
Jesus handles that in Matthew 7

A Tree and Its Fruit
15"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

16"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.

18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

19"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

20"So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21"(R)Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'
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post #13 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 12:58 PM
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But if your moral upbringing is already twisted, how are you able to judge "their fruits"?
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post #14 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by 8mpg
Another question..

If God created Earth...what about the rest of the solar system?

Oh He made that too.

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post #15 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Casper
But if your moral upbringing is already twisted, how are you able to judge "their fruits"?

Being that Christ was the only One who was not "twisted" in some way, as related to being sinful, it is only fair to assume that He is the only one able to judge someone's fruits. In fact, we shouldn't JUDGE them by their fruits anyway, just KNOW them by their fruits.

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post #16 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 01:14 PM
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Oh He made that too.
According to the Hindu's Rigveda, Vishu created the earth and heavens:
"The most celebrated act of Vishnu in the Rigveda is the 'three steps' by which he strode over this (universe) and in three places planted his step. The 'Vishnu Sukta' of the Rig Veda (1.154) says that the first and second of Vishnu's strides (those encompassing the earth and air) are visible to men and the third is in the heights of heaven (sky). This last place is described as Vishnu's supreme abode in RV 1.22.20:"

Who is correct?
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post #17 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 01:19 PM
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According to the Hindu's Rigveda, Vishu created the earth and heavens:
"The most celebrated act of Vishnu in the Rigveda is the 'three steps' by which he strode over this (universe) and in three places planted his step. The 'Vishnu Sukta' of the Rig Veda (1.154) says that the first and second of Vishnu's strides (those encompassing the earth and air) are visible to men and the third is in the heights of heaven (sky). This last place is described as Vishnu's supreme abode in RV 1.22.20:"

Who is correct?

Well, of course they said that. Just as any major religions would assert that the dominant god created the cosmos.

regardless of whom..Allah, Odin, Lodur, Vili, Ra, The Great Spirit, etc.etc.

Everyone thinks they are correct....the Christians are just the only ones that know it

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post #18 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 02:46 PM
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Oh He made that too.
I heard it was subbed out to Haliburton on a No-Bid. How else do you explain a moon that does absolutely nothing and isn't even really made out of cheese?
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post #19 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 02:56 PM
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Being that Christ was the only One who was not "twisted" in some way, as related to being sinful, it is only fair to assume that He is the only one able to judge someone's fruits. In fact, we shouldn't JUDGE them by their fruits anyway, just KNOW them by their fruits.
ahhh, hedging.

Knowing their fruits and making a judgement call is still judging their fruits.

Say you know that someone is a camaro-driving goat molester who doesn't use deoderant. But they heal kittens by laying on of hands.

Clearly they have a supernatural gift and are putting it to "good" use. And clearly they meet the criteria for the dfwstangs wall of shame at the same time.

Should a lost soul, especially one who recognizes goat-buggering as a safe and wholesome pasttime, make a judgement to follow this person's ministry?

In other words, the would-be follower in this scenario has no yardstick to go by except their own upbringing. Evaluating this would-be missionary would produce a scorecard in the "good fruits" category.

Goes back to your question "how do you know"?
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post #20 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 03:14 PM
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Another question..

If God created Earth...what about the rest of the solar system?
Read Genesis 1
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post #21 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 03:16 PM
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ahhh, hedging.

Knowing their fruits and making a judgement call is still judging their fruits.

Say you know that someone is a camaro-driving goat molester who doesn't use deoderant. But they heal kittens by laying on of hands.

Clearly they have a supernatural gift and are putting it to "good" use. And clearly they meet the criteria for the dfwstangs wall of shame at the same time.

Should a lost soul, especially one who recognizes goat-buggering as a safe and wholesome pasttime, make a judgement to follow this person's ministry?

In other words, the would-be follower in this scenario has no yardstick to go by except their own upbringing. Evaluating this would-be missionary would produce a scorecard in the "good fruits" category.

Goes back to your question "how do you know"?

Well 2 things....

I think we have a good standard in scripture of what good fruits are, so we don't have to get into judging what is or isn't. We have a reference.



And secondly....it all depends on the color of the goat!

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post #22 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by ClockwrkOrangeS4
just one more pagan ritual to add to the list
Your use of the word pagan is incorrect. A pagan ritual would be associated with a polytheistic religion or a non-religious custom. Christianity is not polytheistic and obviously its observation of Lent is rooted in religion.

Learn how to select proper words that apply to whatever it is you're trying to say, and maybe you won't trip over yourself next time.
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post #23 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 03:28 PM
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Well 2 things....

I think we have a good standard in scripture of what good fruits are, so we don't have to get into judging what is or isn't. We have a reference.



And secondly....it all depends on the color of the goat!

LOL!

Amen!
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post #24 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk
Your use of the word pagan is incorrect. A pagan ritual would be associated with a polytheistic religion or a non-religious custom. Christianity is not polytheistic and obviously its observation of Lent is rooted in religion.

Learn how to select proper words that apply to whatever it is you're trying to say, and maybe you won't trip over yourself next time.
Depends on the application. This goes around often on the net. Some take it to the point of encompassing all non Abrahamic religion. After all, the earliest recorded concepts of monotheism are Hellene and Parsi.

But assuming we stick with your more strict definition, can you show the origin of Lent as being non-pagan? I think there is evidence to associate it with the feast of Tammuz. I don't think it was even officially established until the 6th century (Brain may want to correct or add here).
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post #25 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 04:22 PM
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I only posted about what Lent means in the Christian Church, in reference to what the OP asked about fasting. The origin of it there is in Jesus 40 days of fasting in the wilderness. If someone wants to try and trace it back to something else for their own purposes that's not my concern, mine is only what it means to Christianity.
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post #26 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk
I only posted about what Lent means in the Christian Church, in reference to what the OP asked about fasting. The origin of it there is in Jesus 40 days of fasting in the wilderness. If someone wants to try and trace it back to something else for their own purposes that's not my concern, mine is only what it means to Christianity.
Okay. Perhaps you wish to compare Phillystang's and Brain_Mach1's views then.

I'm not condemning Lent BTW. Whatever cooks your goose
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post #27 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 05:11 PM
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I have yet to see Brain_Mach 1's views on the subject in this thread.
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post #28 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 05:19 PM
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I have yet to see Brain_Mach 1's views on the subject in this thread.
You can ask. I'm sure he bases the significance in synoptic (Matt, Mark, Luke) scripture during the "temptation in the desert".

I'm pretty sure Philly would agree with his reasoning, though not with his insistence of necessity.

Damn I like thes big words! LOL!
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post #29 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Casper
You can ask. I'm sure he bases the significance in synoptic (Matt, Mark, Luke) scripture during the "temptation in the desert".

I'm pretty sure Philly would agree with his reasoning, though not with his insistence of necessity.

Damn I like thes big words! LOL!

So much you forget the "e" on small ones!!

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post #30 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 07:40 PM
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Learn how to select proper words that apply to whatever it is you're trying to say, and maybe you won't trip over yourself next time.
I selected my words just fine. In fact, I just paraphrased your christian brother Phillystang (see post #2).
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post #31 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 07:45 PM
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So much you forget the "e" on small ones!!
Its silent. Ve not need zem!
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post #32 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by ClockwrkOrangeS4
I selected my words just fine. In fact, I just paraphrased your christian brother Phillystang (see post #2).
Wrong, you need more education on how to make your point in writing to a learned reader. Using words you think you know the meaning of, but actually don't, only exposes your weakness in communication skills, which compounds your weakness of lacking any worthwhile knowledge regarding the subject at hand.
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post #33 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Phillystang
16"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.

18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.

19"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Ah, the logic of simple minds. It's cute sometimes.

Looks like he forgot about apple trees, plum trees, cherry trees, peach trees, apricot trees, and almond trees... to name a few. Fortunately their toxins are low enough to be relatively harmless to most people (especially since we've had many generations of ingestion to build up our resistance to them), but they do in fact contain a cyanide compound (amygdalin in apples, and prunasin in the rest).

BTW Honeycrisp Apples are TEH BOMB! Such a short season for them though

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post #34 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 10:50 AM
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Amygdalin in Peaches and almonds too isn't there?

I guess that is just God's way of saying no matter how sweet a fruit looks on the outside, he's an evil nut at the core
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post #35 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 11:15 AM
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Amygdalin in Peaches and almonds too isn't there?

I guess that is just God's way of saying no matter how sweet a fruit looks on the outside, he's an evil nut at the core

As cute as that is..

I prefer to see it as an analogy for man's soul. To our core we are "infinitely wicked" (cyanide), yet his grace covers our sin and completely surrounds it so that you cannot see it anymore. If we live as intended, when we die, the sinful core stays here and our outer self (fruit) is changed into another form.

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post #36 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 11:17 AM
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Can anyone document a case of a human perishing from intentional ingestion of cyanide-laden (LOL) fruit seeds? Get your science to working here....we must have proof of such an occurence.

So Laetrile is bad, huh.....Steve "Bullitt" McQueen must have been clueless about that.
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post #37 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Majestyk
Can anyone document a case of a human perishing from intentional ingestion of cyanide-laden (LOL) fruit seeds? Get your science to working here....we must have proof of such an occurence.

So Laetrile is bad, huh.....Steve "Bullitt" McQueen must have been clueless about that.
Yes, and Black Walnuts are effective for catching fish. Illegal, but effective.

Laetril was a fad.

Good stuff, citations in APA and not linked directly though.

Link

Quote:
"Amygdalin occurs naturally in a number of plant materials; however, the usual commercial source is the kernel of various varieties of Prunus armeniaca L. (family Rosacea), commonly referred to as apricot pits. These vary appreciably in there amygdalin or laetrile content, which may reach 8 percent, but the kernels of some wild varieties contain twenty times as much as those of cultivated varieties of apricots." (Tyler)

...

"Lacking any proof of safety and efficacy, the Food and Drug Administration banned laetrile from interstate commerce in 1971. However, several state legislatures, reacting to political pressures, legalized intrastate sale and use of the product. In 1980, similar pressures forced the National Cancer Institute to begin a clinical study of laetrile in terminal cancer patients." (Tyler)

...

"A clinical trial conducted at the Mayo Clinic and three other prominent cancer centers found no anticancer effect but found significant blood levels of cyanide in some of the patients." (Hafner)

...

Ingested with plant material containing beta-glucosidase, amygdalin can be lethal. (Schmidt)

...



Last edited by Casper; 03-13-2008 at 11:48 AM.
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post #38 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flashstang04
As cute as that is..

I prefer to see it as an analogy for man's soul. To our core we are "infinitely wicked" (cyanide), yet his grace covers our sin and completely surrounds it so that you cannot see it anymore. If we live as intended, when we die, the sinful core stays here and our outer self (fruit) is changed into another form.
But what if the seeds are on the outside?
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post #39 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper
Yes, and Black Walnuts are effective for catching fish. Illegal, but effective.

Laetril was a fad.
Billy Ray Cyrus was a fad

Laetril was quackery
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post #40 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
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Billy Ray Cyrus was a fad

Laetril was quackery
Well okay, if you insist
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post #41 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkWolf
Ah, the logic of simple minds. It's cute sometimes.

Looks like he forgot about apple trees, plum trees, cherry trees, peach trees, apricot trees, and almond trees... to name a few. Fortunately their toxins are low enough to be relatively harmless to most people (especially since we've had many generations of ingestion to build up our resistance to them), but they do in fact contain a cyanide compound (amygdalin in apples, and prunasin in the rest).

BTW Honeycrisp Apples are TEH BOMB! Such a short season for them though
Perhaps so simple that you have overcomplicated his point by your necessity to over analyze a basic illustration spoken to common Israelites.

"Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?"
That is His point. You've clearly missed the forest for the trees in your attempt to be 'cute'
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post #42 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 03:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Perhaps so simple that you have overcomplicated his point by your necessity to over analyze a basic illustration spoken to common Israelites.

"Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?"
That is His point. You've clearly missed the forest for the trees in your attempt to be 'cute'
Even though he called out grapes and figs, he did say "every good tree", and to burn "every tree that does not bear good fruit". Perhaps it's you who missed the trees?

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post #43 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 04:38 PM
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Damn people, its just midrash used to forward a Christian exegisis:

an example (link)

Quote:
There are many things in Scripture that are like this. The Tree of Life in Judaism, which in Hebrew is called the es hayyim, is represented by a fig tree. We see it in Ezekiel 47 and in the Book of Revelation, but we see it first in the Creation in Genesis. In John chapter one, when Nathaniel asks Jesus how He knows so much about him, Jesus answers, "Because I saw you under the fig tree." What Jesus was saying to Nathaniel with these words was not simply that he saw him under a literal fig tree, although that was a part of it. What He was really saying in midrash, or Jewish metaphor, is this: "I saw you from the garden, from the Creation, from the foundation of the world."
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post #44 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper
Damn people, its just midrash used to forward a Christian exegisis:

an example (link)

I'm pretty sure most of us knew that. It seems only one is making an issue out of literal meanings. It's almost entertaining.

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post #45 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-13-2008, 11:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flashstang04
I'm pretty sure most of us knew that. It seems only one is making an issue out of literal meanings. It's almost entertaining.
Or just pointing out it's a silly metaphor from a simpler time. You know, before heathenistic things like science butted in.

If that one was over your head, no wonder some people can't come to terms with the idea that genesis could be allegorical.

Now that's entertaining.

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post #46 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-14-2008, 08:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkWolf
Or just pointing out it's a silly metaphor from a simpler time. You know, before heathenistic things like science butted in.

If that one was over your head, no wonder some people can't come to terms with the idea that genesis could be allegorical.

Now that's entertaining.
When did science split from the spiritual quest and why?
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post #47 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-14-2008, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSON
When did science split from the spiritual quest and why?
Has it?

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post #48 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-14-2008, 10:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkWolf
Has it?
I was assuming your statement to be literally direct.
If it hasn't, how does this process work in, for example, the Catholic Church?
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post #49 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-14-2008, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkWolf
Has it?
I was pondering that myself.

Perhaps science is the more primitive concept and religion split from science?

I was reading something somewhere, wish I could find it again, about our brains being hardwired for religion; it is the process of balancing discrepencies between the two halves of the brain which reinforces a worldview, regardless of how ludicrous someone else may see it. It may likely be an extension of short term memory evolution.
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post #50 of 64 (permalink) Old 03-14-2008, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper
I was pondering that myself.

Perhaps science is the more primitive concept and religion split from science?

I was reading something somewhere, wish I could find it again, about our brains being hardwired for religion; it is the process of balancing discrepencies between the two halves of the brain which reinforces a worldview, regardless of how ludicrous someone else may see it. It may likely be an extension of short term memory evolution.
Initially that does sound pretty far fetched... but then you start to look at things like the pyramids, and stonehenge and you have to wonder if perhaps science (and math, naturally) predates modern religion (particularly Abrahamic religions, as they seem to be the only ones acting particularly threatened by science), but was lost at some point when religion took over.

Perhaps ~5000-10000 years ago a small group was pushing something similar to intelligent design, weeding it into public conscience, presenting it as plausible science.

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