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post #1 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 02:14 PM Thread Starter
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If there is no God...

... then why would Hitler be any more evil or worthy of punishment than your neighborhood pest exterminator? They are both taking care of a perceived nuisance, taking the life of innocent beings. Termite, cockroach, or ant life would be of no less value in a godless world than human life since we would all stem from the same common ancestry.

What are your thoughts? Are there any consistent atheists here?

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post #2 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 02:18 PM
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You’re a sick puppy for that analogy.

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post #3 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
... then why would Hitler be any more evil or worthy of punishment than your neighborhood pest exterminator? They are both taking care of a perceived nuisance, taking the life of innocent beings. Termite, cockroach, or ant life would be of no more value in a godless world than human life since we would all stem from the same common ancestry.

What are your thoughts? Are there any consistent atheists here?

"Because we all are part of accepted moral constructs that promote the survival of the species."

Thought I would go ahead and get that out pf the way for them.

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post #4 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 02:24 PM
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Why does not having a god mean all life forms are equal? God or no god, humans rule the earth.

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post #5 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 02:24 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flashstang04
"Because we all are part of accepted moral constructs that promote the survival of the species."

Thought I would go ahead and get that out pf the way for them.
Why is your species more valuable than others? Are we not all family at some point in the distant past?
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post #6 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 02:25 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by propellerhead
Why does not having a god mean all life forms are equal? God or no god, humans rule the earth.
Why is it wrong for Hitler to want to rule the earth and do what is necessary to achieve that?
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post #7 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 02:26 PM Thread Starter
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You’re a sick puppy for that analogy.
No one is sick in a godless world, my sickness is saneness to me.
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post #8 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Phillystang
Why is it wrong for Hitler to want to rule the earth and do what is necessary to achieve that?
Because he killed many innocents.

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post #9 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 02:42 PM Thread Starter
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Because he killed many innocents.
Like the many innocent insect life that the exterminator kills?
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post #10 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Phillystang
Like the many innocent insect life that the exterminator kills?
No. Humans.

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post #11 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 02:49 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by propellerhead
No. Humans.
Why are humans more valuable than bugs?
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post #12 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 02:52 PM
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Because we are a more intelligent species and rule the earth. Not because of some god.

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post #13 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Phillystang
Why are humans more valuable than bugs?
Wow.
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post #14 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by flashstang04
"Because we all are part of accepted moral constructs that promote the survival of the species."

Thought I would go ahead and get that out pf the way for them.
Must be by our own intelligence LOL from which those accepted moral constructs, and the concept of "innocents", were created.
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post #15 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 04:12 PM
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Must be by our own intelligence LOL from which those accepted moral constructs, and the concept of "innocents", were created.

Pray tell, who decides who is and who is not innocent anymore.....hmmmmm.

What are the lines not to cross? Is it a score system you think?

For instance...how many J walking violations would equal a murder?

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post #16 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Why are humans more valuable than bugs?
I don't see bugs above me on the food chain.

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post #17 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 04:27 PM
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Desperately grasping at straws for a comparision doesn't make your arguement any more realistic. We could do this all day. Ridiculous comparisions, each more wild and extreme. Actually, now that we've talked about it, I've decided you're right. I think I'll go on a killing spree and rid the earth of lesser beings. Do you want to PM me your address or just post it right out so I can get started?

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post #18 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 11:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
... then why would Hitler be any more evil or worthy of punishment than your neighborhood pest exterminator? They are both taking care of a perceived nuisance, taking the life of innocent beings. Termite, cockroach, or ant life would be of no less value in a godless world than human life since we would all stem from the same common ancestry.

What are your thoughts? Are there any consistent atheists here?
What a ridiculous ponderance.

It's simple, really. Hitler was likely a hero to certain people... for instance, members of the KKK. Society deems what is right and what is wrong by way of majority rule. At least, our society does in theory. A dictatorship will determine right and wrong based on the whim of the dictator.

In our society, if we felt it was ok to kill someone for flipping us off in traffic, the laws for murder and killing would be considerably different than they are now.

In fact, ~150 years ago in this same country, we actually did feel very similar. It was ok to kill someone for cheating in a poker game. It was ok to kill someone for calling you a name.

But as time goes on, and as we grow as a society, we continue to shape our morals based on the will of the people (in theory, of course).

What makes us more significant than a roach? Nothing really. It's our own sense of self importance. It stems from survival of the fitest, when you boil it down to it's core.

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post #19 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-11-2008, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Why are humans more valuable than bugs?
Humans are a more evolved species that has the ability to have higher thinking unlike bugs and reptiles. Because of this higher thinking and brain evolution we have dominated this planet with the basic Freudian instincts: sex and survival. Through moral adaptation our species has formed a society of wrongs and rights. Hitler was wrong with the extermination of a certain race and we know this because we have formed laws and ideas in which our society operates. Hitler violated these morals and therefore is in the wrong. I believe that we kill things as a basic instinct of survival. Freud would say that a human uses his ethos to rid life of complications of its survival.

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post #20 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 05:44 AM
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Castle Doctrine

I have the right to take any action to defend my property, including deadly force, whether it be with a fly swatter, a flip flop, or a bullet.



Phillystang,

Do you kill bugs? Are you saying it's only okay for you to kill bugs because you believe in god?
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post #21 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 07:10 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkWolf
What makes us more significant than a roach? Nothing really. It's our own sense of self importance. It stems from survival of the fitest, when you boil it down to it's core.
Thank you for your honesty in remaining consistent
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post #22 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 07:16 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ClockwrkOrangeS4
Castle Doctrine

I have the right to take any action to defend my property, including deadly force, whether it be with a fly swatter, a flip flop, or a bullet.



Phillystang,

Do you kill bugs? Are you saying it's only okay for you to kill bugs because you believe in god?
Well, If I believed the bug and I were related... and if I had no understanding of God and His hierarchy of creation; as an atheists I would have just as hard a time killing a bug than I would a human. It is not the bug's fault that he didn't evolve to the importance of us humans, why should we simply trample them as it is convenient to us? How far back do we have to go before it is ok to kill our ancestors?
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post #23 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Well, If I believed the bug and I were related... and if I had no understanding of God and His hierarchy of creation; as an atheists I would have just as hard a time killing a bug than I would a human. It is not the bug's fault that he didn't evolve to the importance of us humans, why should we simply trample them as it is convenient to us? How far back do we have to go before it is ok to kill our ancestors?
Huh? I don't get that part. Why would an atheist have a hard time killing a bug? I put ant killer down in my yard all the time without regard to any god or creation theory. Damn, you're stretching.

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post #24 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 08:25 AM
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What Philly is asking is where does that "self value" come from that we are worth more than the ants in your yard, and being that an ant and a human are both living things, without a hierarchy, they would ten to be equal in terms of "life worth". Why does one have more of a right to live than the other, and where and what is that conclusion based on to someone not acknowledging a higher power. So far, DarkWolf has seemed to me to make the most sense with his alluding to a "false" sense of self importance. ( "false" being my term)

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post #25 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 09:08 AM
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What makes us more significant than a roach? Nothing really. It's our own sense of self importance. It stems from survival of the fitest, when you boil it down to it's core.
I've got no problem with this.

For those with faith is gods, it seems to me, that this faith is just another form of this "sense of self importance". Has anyone ever developed a religious system that doesn't cater to this sense? Is there a system in which the gods rule and humans are always inferior and lowly? A system where they are permanently rejected by a higher being with no form of payment or favor? I doubt it, why would anyone subscribe to a system of belief that does not improve their sense of importance?

On a side note, how effective would Christianity be if there was no promise of heaven? Could you just acknowledge your creator, do what pleases it, and then die? What is the worth in serving the desires of someone else with no reward for yourself?

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post #26 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 09:17 AM
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I've got no problem with this.

For those with faith is gods, it seems to me, that this faith is just another form of this "sense of self importance". Has anyone ever developed a religious system that doesn't cater to this sense? Is there a system in which the gods rule and humans are always inferior and lowly? A system where they are permanently rejected by a higher being with no form of payment or favor? I doubt it, why would anyone subscribe to a system of belief that does not improve their sense of importance?

On a side note, how effective would Christianity be if there was no promise of heaven? Could you just acknowledge your creator, do what pleases it, and then die? What is the worth in serving the desires of someone else with no reward for yourself?

The reward for a Christian is not heaven, it is fulfilling our original created purpose, which is fellowship with God. Heaven is just a side note. Since it is what we were REALLY made for, it is not a reward.

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post #27 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 10:01 AM
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The reward for a Christian is not heaven, it is fulfilling our original created purpose, which is fellowship with God. Heaven is just a side note. Since it is what we were REALLY made for, it is not a reward.
It's the same thing to me. Your reward is a new fellowship with God. (i.e. "Heaven")

Reward
something that is given in return for good or evil done or received or that is offered or given for some service or attainment

It's a reward by definition.

So, what now, are you going to start breaking into it's a "gift" not a "reward", dude, it's the same thing to me.

All I'm sayings is this is just another form of "sense of importance" and "self value". If you take that away the system doesn't make sense.

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post #28 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
... then why would Hitler be any more evil or worthy of punishment than your neighborhood pest exterminator? They are both taking care of a perceived nuisance, taking the life of innocent beings. Termite, cockroach, or ant life would be of no less value in a godless world than human life since we would all stem from the same common ancestry.

What are your thoughts? Are there any consistent atheists here?
I see myself very consistent. You are placing this in the context of "punishment" when I don't see any need for it. I don't see any supernatural "karma" or order to balance.

Incarceration, execution, fines, things that are regularly implemented as punishments in a secular sense are designed to A) remove a dangerous situation from the world, and B) provide a rehabilitation where possible. You might argue C) a deterrent effect as well, but that tends to have its own issues in certain circumstances.

Second of all, you presume too much about my value system. That you and I cannot rationalize the world in the same way does not necessarily put you and I at odds.
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post #29 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 10:33 AM
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Pray tell, who decides who is and who is not innocent anymore.....hmmmmm.

What are the lines not to cross? Is it a score system you think?

For instance...how many J walking violations would equal a murder?
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post #30 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 10:34 AM
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So do christians not have intercourse with farm animals just because the bible said so, or because you know it's probably not right?


Phillystang, way to answer my question with a question.
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post #31 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 10:42 AM
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So do christians not have intercourse with farm animals just because the bible said so, or because you know it's probably not right?


Phillystang, way to answer my question with a question.
To a Christian lusting after an animal is due to a man being given over to sin, easy enough. I think that question is more fairly presented to an atheist. WHY do you as an atheist think that it is wrong. Beyond just being disgusting. Why is it a "crime of nature" or however you would define it.

And again, you said farm animals...does that make wild beasts ok that are not on farms?

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post #32 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 10:47 AM
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To a Christian lusting after an animal is due to a man being given over to sin, easy enough. I think that question is more fairly presented to an atheist. WHY do you as an atheist think that it is wrong. Beyond just being disgusting. Why is it a "crime of nature" or however you would define it.

And again, you said farm animals...does that make wild beasts ok that are not on farms?
I think it's wrong because it is. That's it. If the only thing keeping people from doing it is the bible, there are bigger issues to attend to.

Do you kill bugs? Does it make it okay to kill a bug if you believe in god, but not okay if you are atheist?
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post #33 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by flashstang04
To a Christian lusting after an animal is due to a man being given over to sin, easy enough. I think that question is more fairly presented to an atheist. WHY do you as an atheist think that it is wrong. Beyond just being disgusting. Why is it a "crime of nature" or however you would define it.

And again, you said farm animals...does that make wild beasts ok that are not on farms?
I think I've actually been involved with some of those wild beasts in the past
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post #34 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 10:59 AM
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I think I've actually been involved with some of those wild beasts in the past

HA!!!


Clock:

Of course I kill bugs. As men we are given dominion over all of the earth.


Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

It is my right to, and yours also.


By the way..you said "Wrong because it is". How do you know it's wrong? Who told you? If you had been born on a desert island would you have known? Where did you get the, "it just is " from? I think that is where this discussion is going.

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post #35 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 11:07 AM
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HA!!!


Clock:

Of course I kill bugs. As men we are given dominion over all of the earth.


Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

It is my right to, and yours also.


By the way..you said "Wrong because it is". How do you know it's wrong? Who told you? If you had been born on a desert island would you have known? Where did you get the, "it just is " from? I think that is where this discussion is going.
I just do. How do you know how to breathe to stay alive, did you read about it somewhere? Did someone teach you how to smell? Did you read a book to better understand how to differentiate between hot and cold?
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post #36 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 11:13 AM
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I just do. How do you know how to breathe to stay alive, did you read about it somewhere? Did someone teach you how to smell? Did you read a book to better understand how to differentiate between hot and cold?

The things that you describe are all physiological aspects I have no control over. How do I know this? When I sleep, I still breathe. If I drive past a dead skunk, I passively catch a whiff thanks to my olfactory sensory neurons. Do I know that water is hot and cold....yes! I have BEEN TOLD SO!!! Plus, regardless of what you call it, if it is "hot" and I put my hand under it, I will pull away..(again, automatically)


I am really trying to understand you but you are not giving me much to work with here.

again...

How do you know.....

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post #37 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 11:18 AM
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The things that you describe are all physiological aspects I have no control over.
I feel the same way about knowing it's wrong to have sex with animals. In other words, if someone tries to put my penis near a goats anus, I will pull it away, instinctively. I don't see why you are struggling with this concept.
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post #38 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 11:20 AM
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I feel the same way about knowing it's wrong to have sex with animals. In other words, if someone tries to put my penis near a goats anus, I will pull it away, instinctively. I don't see why you are struggling with this concept.

That has nothing to do with what you mentioned above. I think you are struggling, and I can prove it. If you were brought up in a culture where goat sex was accepted, then you would be at ease with the above scenario, and possibly even welcome it.

I.E. a LEARNED response
I.E. Been taught from somewhere/something

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post #39 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 12:28 PM
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I think it's wrong because it is. That's it. If the only thing keeping people from doing it is the bible, there are bigger issues to attend to.
Simply obeying rules, tradition and dogmatic answers to moral questions do not make a person moral. Morality requires choices, and the more that a person relies on a "text book of morality" or dogmatic pre-laid rules, the less they are acting as a moral person. Obeying rules because you think you should is not the same as making moral choices, therefore at best such people are morally neutral
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post #40 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 04:29 PM
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That has nothing to do with what you mentioned above. I think you are struggling, and I can prove it. If you were brought up in a culture where goat sex was accepted, then you would be at ease with the above scenario, and possibly even welcome it.

I.E. a LEARNED response
I.E. Been taught from somewhere/something
Are there cultures where murder (of a human, by a human) without consequence is acceptable?
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post #41 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 04:40 PM
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Are there cultures where murder (of a human, by a human) without consequence is acceptable?

Yes, have you seen Apocalypto?

Have you studied the Mexican Indian civilizations at all?


Human sacrifice was not only accepted, but an offering.... This tradition was passed down.....again....learned

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post #42 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 04:48 PM
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Why are humans more valuable than bugs?
Are bugs capable of believing in God and showing it? Do you really think that God planned the life of every bug on earth?
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post #43 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 04:51 PM
lol, this place sucks now
 
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Yes, have you seen Apocalypto?

Have you studied the Mexican Indian civilizations at all?


Human sacrifice was not only accepted, but an offering.... This tradition was passed down.....again....learned
was? and who was the offering for?
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post #44 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 05:00 PM
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Are there cultures where murder (of a human, by a human) without consequence is acceptable?
The Azizi and Afars as a matter of fact. And not in any ritual sense, but a practical one. This idea is uniformly aplied to their own as well as outsiders. They held off the italians in the last century until Italy brought in the mustard gas. In fact their completely different culture, extremely old, was cited as a reason for extermination.
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post #45 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 06:25 PM
lol, this place sucks now
 
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The Azizi and Afars as a matter of fact. And not in any ritual sense, but a practical one. This idea is uniformly aplied to their own as well as outsiders. They held off the italians in the last century until Italy brought in the mustard gas. In fact their completely different culture, extremely old, was cited as a reason for extermination.
I cannot find any info on these people pertaining to killing, not that I don't believe you. Safe to assume these practices no longer exist?
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post #46 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 06:43 PM
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So do christians not have intercourse with farm animals just because the bible said so, or because you know it's probably not right?


Phillystang, way to answer my question with a question.
cant speak for all of us but i only will if the sheep is cute..........

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post #47 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 06:44 PM
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if someone tries to put my penis near a goats anus, I will pull it away, instinctively.
you damn liar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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post #48 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 06:46 PM
lol, this place sucks now
 
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you damn liar!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tequila nights don't count, everyone knows that
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post #49 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 06:51 PM
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tequila nights don't count, everyone knows that
[naughty sheep]TiIiIiIiIiIiIiIiIiIm[/naughty sheep]

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post #50 of 66 (permalink) Old 03-12-2008, 07:16 PM
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I cannot find any info on these people pertaining to killing, not that I don't believe you. Safe to assume these practices no longer exist?
Why go to that extreme? Everyone is not a murderer..is that the only thing you consider an unethical crime?

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