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post #1 of 127 (permalink) Old 01-31-2008, 02:10 PM Thread Starter
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Adventures in Catholic debates

James White and Father Stravinskas


Pay me now, pay me later



Who is the blessed man?


On Purgatory
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post #2 of 127 (permalink) Old 01-31-2008, 09:28 PM
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Anyone interested in YouTube debate should check the series of debates between Martin and Pacwa posted by SKYPLASH. Do a search, there are a lot of them.

They are not editted and they include the names of the people in the debates.

There is a Father Peter Stravinskas who wrote many Catholic books, but I have not been able to determine who the guy in the above is. The YouTube descirptions don't say and I can't find anything from Jim White's website either.

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post #3 of 127 (permalink) Old 01-31-2008, 09:45 PM Thread Starter
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Here is a Pacwa/ James White debate

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post #4 of 127 (permalink) Old 01-31-2008, 09:55 PM Thread Starter
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Papacy Rebuttal White/Pacwa

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post #5 of 127 (permalink) Old 01-31-2008, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Phillystang
Here is a Pacwa/ James White debate

Wow, I learned about more Apostolic Churches from Father Mitch! Strange how the older the Church (even those not in union with Rome) the less they look like non-denominational Churches of America.

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post #6 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-13-2008, 08:51 PM Thread Starter
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Boston College Papacy Debate Reposted

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post #7 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-15-2008, 11:05 AM
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So I am guessing you are Greek Orthodox? I have no problem with the Orthodox Churches.

They believe the Patriarchs are equal.

Amen, amen .....

Truly, truly .....

Believe what is written.

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post #8 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-15-2008, 11:22 AM
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Philly,

Have you ever thought about posting any NON editted "debates"

I would hate to think that people might get the idea that you have some anti-Catholic prejudice.

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post #9 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-15-2008, 11:54 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
Philly,

Have you ever thought about posting any NON editted "debates"

I would hate to think that people might get the idea that you have some anti-Catholic prejudice.
Although this is not the entire debate, it is not edited. It is merely Whites closing statements.

Catholics often point to protestants lack of knowledge about the early church fathers (which is true, there is a lack), but when there is a well studied protestant such as White who knows his church fathers, then the Catholics I've seen him debate with don't have much to come back with.
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post #10 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-15-2008, 12:06 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
So I am guessing you are Greek Orthodox? I have no problem with the Orthodox Churches.

They believe the Patriarchs are equal.

Amen, amen .....

Truly, truly .....

Believe what is written.
No, I'm not Greek Orthodox, what made you think that?

You have no problem with the Greek Orthodox, last I heard they didn't recognize the catholic Pope's authority?
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post #11 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-15-2008, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Phillystang
No, I'm not Greek Orthodox, what made you think that?

You have no problem with the Greek Orthodox, last I heard they didn't recognize the catholic Pope's authority?
They believe Jesus when He said "Amen, Amen"

James White comments that the Patriarchs did not view the Bishop of Rome as supreme. This would imply that there ARE Pathriachs (someone actually making the statement). These patriarch are the leaders of the Orthodox Churches. The Protestants are suspiciously quiet in the 1st 15 Centuries.

If James White is correct, I should leave the Catholic Church and become Orthodox. Will you be joining me?

Resolve the papal debate and you have Orthodoxy. This is Church history.

As for your post, it is this simple. Paul says "But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth. "

I can point to a 2000 year old pillar, the Church, and so can the Orthodox. You have no pillar or truth, at least not one that you have ever mentioned. You claim no denomination, so you can't be held to anything specific. You have various people you follow as long as they agree with you. If they don't, you attack them ie Haggie's new book.

You are making yourself your own pope and patriarch.

The Bible is not the Pillar of truth, the Church is the pillar of truth. The Church is 2000 years old.

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Last edited by Brain_Mach1; 02-15-2008 at 01:19 PM.
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post #12 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-15-2008, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
It is merely Whites closing statements.
Feel free to change the title of the thread to reflect you statement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Catholics often point to protestants lack of knowledge about the early church fathers (which is true, there is a lack), but when there is a well studied protestant such as White who knows his church fathers, then the Catholics I've seen him debate with don't have much to come back with.
I don't doubt that James White is a good debater. I have not seen a complete debate from him.

However, I am aware of writings from Protestant preachers who converted to Catholicism. Dr. Scott Hahn, a former seminar professor who is now a Catholic professor, points out that he actively lead Catholics away from Catholicism to Protestantism. He now teaches Bible study to Catholics and has lead many preachers to Catholicism. You can view his material at:

http://www.salvationhistory.com/

Marcus Grodi, former Protestant preacher, created a network of converts to help other Protestant ministers who are looking to return to the Catholic Church.

http://www.chnetwork.org/

How about Cardinal Newman who converted to Catholicism while studying history to disprove Catholicism and wrote “Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine.”

I have not called on the Protestants on the board to watch these men and believe them as you have done with your anti-catholic posts (I am recalling your video from John whoever who has never even been in a Catholic Church).

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post #13 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-15-2008, 03:18 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
Feel free to change the title of the thread to reflect you statement.

I don't doubt that James White is a good debater. I have not seen a complete debate from him.

However, I am aware of writings from Protestant preachers who converted to Catholicism. Dr. Scott Hahn, a former seminar professor who is now a Catholic professor, points out that he actively lead Catholics away from Catholicism to Protestantism. He now teaches Bible study to Catholics and has lead many preachers to Catholicism. You can view his material at:

http://www.salvationhistory.com/

Marcus Grodi, former Protestant preacher, created a network of converts to help other Protestant ministers who are looking to return to the Catholic Church.

http://www.chnetwork.org/

How about Cardinal Newman who converted to Catholicism while studying history to disprove Catholicism and wrote “Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine.”

I have not called on the Protestants on the board to watch these men and believe them as you have done with your anti-catholic posts (I am recalling your video from John whoever who has never even been in a Catholic Church).
Well, you are free to post whichever material you want to, (preferably in a new thread.) I am not trying to attack Catholicism just for the sake of it, but for the sake of those that have been caught up into its trappings. I care for those souls that are trusting in their works and own goodness and man-made doctrines of Rome rather than in the finished work of Christ imputed to their account.

Just re-watch the first video clip in this thread 'pay now or pay later' and you'll see how much Rome's system has been corrupted.

There are plenty of ex-catholics I could post up also that are now protestants.
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post #14 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-15-2008, 04:27 PM Thread Starter
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Sola Scriptura debate closing statement

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post #15 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-18-2008, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Phillystang
Well, you are free to post whichever material you want to, (preferably in a new thread.) I am not trying to attack Catholicism just for the sake of it, but for the sake of those that have been caught up into its trappings. I care for those souls that are trusting in their works and own goodness and man-made doctrines of Rome rather than in the finished work of Christ imputed to their account.
I have quoted the Catechism to you in the past showing that your understanding of Catholicism is incorrect. One of the REAL debates I linked to with Father Paqwa even covers this. The person he is debating also falls into the trap of stating the Protestant "view" of Catholicism instead of what is actually written and the moderator calls him out for it. Don’t argue that Catholics believe what you want them to believe. Argue against what is written.

Scott Hahn and Marcus Grodi both discouss how their understanding of Catholics was different from what was actually written in Catholic doctrine. I am sure that you have the same respect for me by reviewing material I post just as I do when you post material.

Fallen away Catholics who do not understand are in error. People who know the truth but teach otherwise are heretics. Those who argue from their understanding of Catholicism instead of arguing against what is written in Catholic doctrine are bigots.

You choose to believe what you have heard and not what has been presented to you from official Church documents. You have even commented about the Catholic Church on threads about the Archbishop of Canterbury and threads about predestination.

To correct your error in Catholic understanding again: "Can man merit anything on their own in the Catholic belief?" No.

2007. With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

Where you are confused from incorrect teaching is from 2008

"The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

Imagine a hungry family.
1. They ask for assistance from your church (call this prayer, “alter call”, sinner’s prayer, etc.).
2. You come to their house and fill their pantry and refrigerator with food (God’s grace poured out).
3. If they do not actively accept the food by eating it, they will die (man collaborating with God’s grace).
4. Your Church fills the house with food every week, but at any point that the family stops eating what is being provided, they will die (this is where the once saved always saved debate does not apply to Catholic teaching).

Anyone “trusting in their goodness” is in error with the Church according to Church doctrine. This would be as if the hungry family had a dinner party and spoke of the great food they had provided the guests when it was actually provided by your Church.

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post #16 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-18-2008, 07:24 AM
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Is there Anything in the Bible that mentions the Catholic Church, a pope, priests, nuns, that anyone who is a Christian should not marry because they are a leader in a Christian organization...? And who the fire came up with this ludicrous "Earthly" structure?
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post #17 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-18-2008, 02:37 PM
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Is there Anything in the Bible that mentions the Catholic Church, a pope, priests, nuns, that anyone who is a Christian should not marry because they are a leader in a Christian organization...? And who the fire came up with this ludicrous "Earthly" structure?
Why Yes! I am so glad you asked!

Revelation 14:4 They were singing (what seemed to be) a new hymn before the throne, before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn this hymn except the hundred and forty-four thousand who had been ransomed from the earth. These are they who were not defiled with women; they are virgins and these are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever he goes.

Nuns and priests are married to the Church as Jesus is married to the Church. They can only have one spouse. The Orthodox allow for married priests but not married Bishops. We hear of Peter’s mother-in-law in the Gospels but never his wife. I find that interesting. We hear of the mother and father of James and John but never their wives? Jesus and the apostles were 13 Jewish men and no mention of their wives but we hear about their mothers and other women?

Pope was the ancient Greek title for bishops meaning papa, as in Spiritual fathers like Paul and Peter. As Paul says in 1Cor 4:15 “Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.”

Both Peter and Paul refer to their “children” in their letters. Peter and Paul were Bishops and we are their spiritual children. I guess they had not heard that we have but one father in heaven (they didn't have a Bible).

Catholic means universal. Jesus created only one Church. "...the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1 Timothy 3:15. Did Paul just say that the church is the pillar of truth? I thought that was the Bible alone? You know Sola Scriptura?

The oldest written record of the word Catholic used with the Church is “Where the Bishop is, there let the multitude of believers be; even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church”
-Saint Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, 1st c. A.D

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post #18 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-18-2008, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
Why Yes! I am so glad you asked!


The oldest written record of the word Catholic used with the Church is “Where the Bishop is, there let the multitude of believers be; even as where Jesus is, there is the Catholic Church”
-Saint Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, 1st c. A.D
Still don't mean diddly, unless you can back it up in the Bible. Otherwise, it is an earthly construct of no relevance to Christianity and in league with the opposition.
I don't care what Ignat said, he made up his own religion. What it is, it is not mentioned in the Bible... if you want to hold the Bible as the standard. If not the standard, let's get on with it.
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post #19 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-18-2008, 10:37 PM
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Still don't mean diddly, unless you can back it up in the Bible. Otherwise, it is an earthly construct of no relevance to Christianity and in league with the opposition.
I don't care what Ignat said, he made up his own religion. What it is, it is not mentioned in the Bible... if you want to hold the Bible as the standard. If not the standard, let's get on with it.
You are aware that the Books of the Bible were not complete until around 70 AD?

You are also aware that Paul said "So, then, brethren stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thess. 2:15)

Paul never had a Bible, so I guess he had to improvise. That must be why he refered to himself as our father.

Jesus created a Church not a book. He never said "write this down". These are features of Islam and Jewish religions. Christ created a Church.

If your brother sins against you go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. . . . But if he does not listen, take one or two others with you. . . . If he refuses to listen . . . tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. (Matt. 18:15-17)

or, point solely to a book which Catholics had not compiled yet. -- Martin Luther

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post #20 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-19-2008, 07:26 AM
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Since a debate has 2 sides and we love James White, search YouTube for:

Justification By Faith - Sungenis vs White

It covers 25 parts because it is not editted to contain James White content only.

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post #21 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-19-2008, 08:10 AM
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That's the problem. The Bible we (Catholics and Protestants) have today was culled and edited by a group of self appointed men who made the Catholic Church as something "Strange".
The rats have entered and defecated in the stored grain, who will eat of it now.
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post #22 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 06:49 AM
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That's the problem. The Bible we (Catholics and Protestants) have today was culled and edited by a group of self appointed men who made the Catholic Church as something "Strange".
Self appointed would apply more to a non-denominational church and to other Protestant churches than to the Catholic or Orthodox Churches.

The fact is that a man CAN NOT go to college, get a degree and start a church in the Catholic or Orthodox faiths. This is a possibility and a reality in Protestantism. Catholics have Parishes, Protestants have what ever corner they choose to build their building on. This leads to multiple and competing churches on the same block, both with the truth.

In Murphy, where I used to live, there are 3 Baptist churches within one mile of each other. What makes one church contain more truth than the other? There is only one Christ and one Church, yet 3 different but the same places on the same street?

If “self appointment” is an issue, Apostolic Succession should be important to you. If it is, the Catholic and Orthodox faiths are your home.

If the Apostolic Churches seem “strange”, than go to a Jewish Shabbat service and study Jewish liturgy. You will begin to see the parallels.

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post #23 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
Self appointed would apply more to a non-denominational church and to other Protestant churches than to the Catholic or Orthodox Churches.

The fact is that a man CAN NOT go to college, get a degree and start a church in the Catholic or Orthodox faiths. This is a possibility and a reality in Protestantism. Catholics have Parishes, Protestants have what ever corner they choose to build their building on. This leads to multiple and competing churches on the same block, both with the truth.

In Murphy, where I used to live, there are 3 Baptist churches within one mile of each other. What makes one church contain more truth than the other? There is only one Christ and one Church, yet 3 different but the same places on the same street?

If “self appointment” is an issue, Apostolic Succession should be important to you. If it is, the Catholic and Orthodox faiths are your home.

If the Apostolic Churches seem “strange”, than go to a Jewish Shabbat service and study Jewish liturgy. You will begin to see the parallels.
Those Parallels are meaningless in this case. Should we study the originations of the Jewish traditions and the origins of those traditions and the origins of those traditions...?

Self appointment as in those who placed themselves in the position to cull and edit books that would become the Bible. And then make a religion aside from the teachings of a man they appropriated.

Who wants to make bread from grain tainted with rat defecation? The grain makes bread but the serving is not good for your health.
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post #24 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 05:15 PM
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Those Parallels are meaningless in this case. Should we study the originations of the Jewish traditions and the origins of those traditions and the origins of those traditions...?
Yes we Should!

Paul says in 2 Tim 3:16 says “All Scripture is inspired by God”. Since the New Testament had not been completed, he was talking about the old Testament.

As St Augustine said “the New is concealed in the Old Testament, the Old is revealed in the New.” We should be reading the Old Testament and the Jewish traditions to understand God’s plan for salvation. God told Moses how the people should worship. David reinstituted the Jewish liturgy as a Priest and King. Jesus is the high Priest and King from the line of David. Yes all this should be studied!
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Self appointment as in those who placed themselves in the position to cull and edit books that would become the Bible. And then make a religion aside from the teachings of a man they appropriated.
To Cull is to remove what is not wanted. I am not aware of anything being Culled from the Bible other than when Martin Luther attempted it and when several books were removed from the Old Testament.

Are you implying that the Catholic Church removed books or passages? You did not state this specifically.
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Who wants to make bread from grain tainted with rat defecation? The grain makes bread but the serving is not good for your health.
I agree. This is why it is important to study Judaism and the early Church to make sure we are not contaminating the grain. We need to know what the good grain looked like!

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post #25 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 05:52 PM Thread Starter
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Along the lines of another post, if a load of native language Bibles were to be dropped on an island full of lost men, would God's Word alone be efficient for faith and salvation apart from the Catholic church system?

Do you think the island men would conclude from the Bible alone that they should pray to Mary and that she was sinless? Could they conclude that there was a guy in charge somewhere who was Vicar of Christ whose declarations regarding the faith were infallible? Would they have lent, the rosary, and confessions to priests?
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post #26 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 10:28 PM
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Along the lines of another post, if a load of native language Bibles were to be dropped on an island full of lost men, would God's Word alone be efficient for faith and salvation apart from the Catholic church system?

Do you think the island men would conclude from the Bible alone that they should pray to Mary and that she was sinless? Could they conclude that there was a guy in charge somewhere who was Vicar of Christ whose declarations regarding the faith were infallible? Would they have lent, the rosary, and confessions to priests?
Good question, specifically about the virgin.

In the context of today, it seems almost anachronistic, but to a pagan gentile raised in the practice of worshipping goddesses, Mary became the ultimate anti-goddess. The utility of that persona is very deep. No longer were there anthropomorphic gods and goddesses, but now there was a neo-anthropomorphic intermediary, of male gender (Jesus). To separate Jesus from his human likenesses (us), a new role for the female divine had to be proposed. She couldn't be a physical equal, like a wife, because jesus was incorporeal originally. By creating a story of virgin birth, Jsus became flesh, and a Davidic lineage was possible (ala Paul).

As far as a "Vicar of Christ", if you accept a fully Jewish origin of Christianity then there is no reason to limit forgiveness of sins to Christ, because Rabbis were capable of doing just that. Confession falls right in line with this same idea.
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post #27 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
Yes we Should.
To Cull is to remove what is not wanted.
You are right. In the third chapter, 2 verse of Jeobanite, it says that the christ will come to the people and die for their sins. He then returned and appointed a Pope who now lives in the city of the land of christ's oppressors. A host of virgin minions surround the pope and interpret the Bible and speak to G#d for the common people. The common people cannot speak directly to G#D because they do not wear the special transmittors that are supplied by the Pope to his minions. These standards are all sent to the flock (the Standardizers) by the grace of G#d. The mother of the christ will be prayed to because she is the mother of G#d. Of course she is not dead and waiting the christs second return because she is so special she went straight to heaven and did not have to pass GO or pay any rent money while she was at the ski resort Pergatorum. This the christ demanded because it completes the olden test a minionals as was prophecied by the hidden message in the raining of frogs lo those many years ago.
Alas, the in is out and the out is in, may the non compliant be culled and standardized.
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post #28 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 09:13 AM
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There was a lot of crap written in the 4th century. I don't think the issue is that the churches culled specific peices, but how they chose which to cull.

And it was not a go or no-go decision. Some things were discarded outright (gThomas). Some things were kept but deemed only silliness, with some theological significance for posterity (apocrypha). Some were accecpted suplement that fell out of favor (Hermas). Some were included later (Peter). Some were rewrites that started off with acceptance but eventually were deemed unnecessary (Diatessaron). Some were only accepted by certain sects (Revelation). And that is just the New Testament; the Old Testament itself was rewritten and exists in more than one form between Jews and Christians.
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post #29 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 10:22 AM
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There was a lot of crap written in the 4th century. I don't think the issue is that the churches culled specific peices, but how they chose which to cull.
Who were the people who culled the books, who gave them the authority and who gave them authority..., who was culled and why to achieve this authority. Is there an obvious intention, maybe power? What would it mean if some books were culled for personal or factional dominance outside the spirit?
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post #30 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 10:31 AM
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I was raised Church of Christ. While they said if I did not anty up once a week, I'd burn, I have never heard it put so bluntly as pay now or pay later.
There is alot of money in salvation/fear. As a video editor for TBN, I saw many a person hand over every dollar they had to buy their way into heaven. It was sickening and it was sad. This is the exact same thing... extorting weak minds for their money. This imbitches God as they play pimp. man, I hope they dont really believe what they preach or its gonna be hell.

uhm, no pun intended.

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post #31 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 10:35 AM
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Who were the people who culled the books, who gave them the authority and who gave them authority..., who was culled and why to achieve this authority. Is there an obvious intention, maybe power? What would it mean if some books were culled for personal or factional dominance outside the spirit?
I think you know my opinion, but if you want to start with the party line then the catholic Encyclopedia is a good place to start. It isn't all propaganda and conspiracy, just a set POV.
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post #32 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Casper
I think you know my opinion, but if you want to start with the party line then the catholic Encyclopedia is a good place to start. It isn't all propaganda and conspiracy, just a set POV.
Of course I used your quote, but the static status of self appointed standardization still shrouds the land in a dark, putrid, state of affairs. As a forum, this is open for anyone to discuss, hopefully to unshroud and reveal (and in most cases it is a re-reveal). Documentation is in international engineering units of course.
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post #33 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Phillystang
Along the lines of another post, if a load of native language Bibles were to be dropped on an island full of lost men, would God's Word alone be efficient for faith and salvation apart from the Catholic church system?
Seeing as how you have already diverged from the Bible at this point, I know you are grasping at straws.

Matthew ends with:
The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them. When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted. Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Mark say:
He said to them, "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

The disciples are charged with actively proclaiming to the world, not dropping a book from an airplane. Have you seen the movie “The Gods Must Be Crazy”? It is a great example of what a Coca Cola bottle can do to people who have not been taught about bottles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Do you think the island men would conclude from the Bible alone that they should pray to Mary and that she was sinless? Could they conclude that there was a guy in charge somewhere who was Vicar of Christ whose declarations regarding the faith were infallible? Would they have lent, the rosary, and confessions to priests?
Knowing the status that the Mother of the King had in Jewish Monarchy (as presented in 2Samuel and in 1,2Chronicles) they would see the honor given to John to care for her as a great blessing. They might also find it interesting that Mary is the only one whom Jesus performed a miracle just because she asked. He would do no such thing for the Pharisees. They might even conclude that she is the Ark of the New Covenant as seen in Revelation.

But with arguments like this, you are jumping to the fullness of the faith bypassing the basics.

The Islanders would start with the Old Testament and see that the Jews had a liturgical form or worship. Exodus, Deuteronomy, and Leviticus give instruction for worship and the Law. They would see that there are leaders of the people.

When Jesus came, he chose 12 apostles as Moses chose 12 princes of the tribes. Jesus commissioned 70 additional disciples as Moses commissioned 70 other leaders of the tribes.

In Acts 1, the Apostles chose Matthias by lots to replace Judas. The see that there are 2 councils of these leaders and that Paul is added to the group. If the islanders believe the Bible and are not contaminated by my beliefs, you beliefs, or the other thousands of Protestant forks, the islanders would probably want to know where these Apostles are.

The question is where are these Apostles and how do I contact them? They read that the line of Apostles is not broken and the Aposltes track each other as they travel. This is in the Biblical! This is all throughout the Acts of the Apostles.

They would assume that the Apostles are based out of Jerusalem and that the Temple still stands. They would probably try to contat the unbroken line of Apostles. They might find the Bible a bit large to consume quickly.

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post #34 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 07:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ModdinArt
wow
I was raised Church of Christ. While they said if I did not anty up once a week, I'd burn, I have never heard it put so bluntly as pay now or pay later.
There is alot of money in salvation/fear. As a video editor for TBN, I saw many a person hand over every dollar they had to buy their way into heaven. It was sickening and it was sad. This is the exact same thing... extorting weak minds for their money. This imbitches God as they play pimp. man, I hope they dont really believe what they preach or its gonna be hell.

uhm, no pun intended.
If the people who editted those vidoes truly believed, they would not edit the videos so much and add noted on the the debators.

Be cautious of editting or by statements of people you don't know anything about.

Feel free to watch the uneditted vidoes. They are longer and have 2 sides along with introductions about the people speaking.

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post #35 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 07:43 AM
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imbitches?


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post #36 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 10:02 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
Seeing as how you have already diverged from the Bible at this point, I know you are grasping at straws.

Matthew ends with:
The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them. When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted. Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Mark say:
He said to them, "Go into the whole world and proclaim the gospel to every creature. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved; whoever does not believe will be condemned.

The disciples are charged with actively proclaiming to the world, not dropping a book from an airplane. Have you seen the movie “The Gods Must Be Crazy”? It is a great example of what a Coca Cola bottle can do to people who have not been taught about bottles.Knowing the status that the Mother of the King had in Jewish Monarchy (as presented in 2Samuel and in 1,2Chronicles) they would see the honor given to John to care for her as a great blessing. They might also find it interesting that Mary is the only one whom Jesus performed a miracle just because she asked. He would do no such thing for the Pharisees. They might even conclude that she is the Ark of the New Covenant as seen in Revelation.

But with arguments like this, you are jumping to the fullness of the faith bypassing the basics.

The Islanders would start with the Old Testament and see that the Jews had a liturgical form or worship. Exodus, Deuteronomy, and Leviticus give instruction for worship and the Law. They would see that there are leaders of the people.

When Jesus came, he chose 12 apostles as Moses chose 12 princes of the tribes. Jesus commissioned 70 additional disciples as Moses commissioned 70 other leaders of the tribes.

In Acts 1, the Apostles chose Matthias by lots to replace Judas. The see that there are 2 councils of these leaders and that Paul is added to the group. If the islanders believe the Bible and are not contaminated by my beliefs, you beliefs, or the other thousands of Protestant forks, the islanders would probably want to know where these Apostles are.

The question is where are these Apostles and how do I contact them? They read that the line of Apostles is not broken and the Aposltes track each other as they travel. This is in the Biblical! This is all throughout the Acts of the Apostles.

They would assume that the Apostles are based out of Jerusalem and that the Temple still stands. They would probably try to contat the unbroken line of Apostles. They might find the Bible a bit large to consume quickly.
Amazing, simply ubelievable! Traditions of men have clearly clouded your entire view on God's Word and the truth therein. Answer the question, would the Bible alone be efficient for salvation for those that believe apart from mother church?
(I did not say this was the way to evangelize, I said "what if this happened". )
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post #37 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 10:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Amazing, simply ubelievable! Traditions of men have clearly clouded your entire view on God's Word and the truth therein. Answer the question, would the Bible alone be efficient for salvation for those that believe apart from mother church?
(I did not say this was the way to evangelize, I said "what if this happened". )
No, Philly-Dilly, man made traditions and standards developed by self appointed men to cull the non compliant is the first door into the house of salvation. The second door is the knowledge that the Mother Mary will talk to G#d for you (by all means have a corner of your house dedicated to her with her statue blessed by your priest). Well, you know the rest of the story. No need for me to expand for possible communal edification, clarification, and revelation. Because, as you know, that is not why we are here.
Oh Mother Mary, I pray to you since you of all people are nearest to G#d, please help me avoid any IRS problems this year. Hail Mary, who gives me comfort. One rosary bead, two rosary bead, three rosary bead for this is written in the Bible, hail Isis, I mean Mary.
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post #38 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Amazing, simply ubelievable! Traditions of men have clearly clouded your entire view on God's Word and the truth therein. Answer the question, would the Bible alone be efficient for salvation for those that believe apart from mother church?
(I did not say this was the way to evangelize, I said "what if this happened". )
Wouldn't the bible be overkill?

Paul didn't need one.

Thomas didn't need one.

In fact there wasn't one around for much of the early church, and the first one (discounting any oral tradition) was condemned as heresy.
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post #39 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSON
Oh Mother Mary, I pray to you since you of all people are nearest to G#d...
You inadvertently nullified your own criticism
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post #40 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 11:38 AM
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I just had an epiphone of stupidity, but Peter obviously had no bible and would not have had any use for one except maybe as kindling.
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post #41 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Amazing, simply ubelievable! Traditions of men have clearly clouded your entire view on God's Word and the truth therein. Answer the question, would the Bible alone be efficient for salvation for those that believe apart from mother church?
(I did not say this was the way to evangelize, I said "what if this happened". )
If the Bible was EFFICIENT, it would have fewer pages.

Is the Bible SUFFICIENT? The answer is No. Jesus is our saviour not a book.

The Apostles filled their ranks as they died out. Read the Act of the Apostles as a history book instead of reading your view into it.

For a simple answer, the Church is the pillar of the faith not a Catholic book called the Bible. Paul tells Timothy this.

Jesus is the word of God. John tells us this. He can not be contained in a simple book.

Jesus left a Church of Apostles and disciples not a book. The Bible is not in the Bible but the ApoStles and disciples and a process to fill the ranks is 100% scriptural.

Moses read the Law to the people. Nehemiah read the law to the people. Did Jesus destroy this or fulfill this?

Moses organized the priesthood and liturgical worship. David restored the priesthood and liturgical worship. Nehemiah restored the priesthood and liturgical worship. Did Jesus destroy this or fulfill this?

The Bible contains the information for salvations but it is not the source of or path to salvation.

The traditions of God are eternal, the traditions of man change as quickly as the birth of a new Protestant denomination.

There is no such thing as a family church, a bible church, an evangelical church, a cowboy church, a biker church, an integrated church, etc... There is only The Church made up of people with different gifts.

There is no such thing as a family church, a bible church, an evangelical church, a cowboy church, a biker church, an integrated church, etc.

If your gifts are different, you may use them in a specific ministry in the One Church. Now you know why there are Franciscan, Dominican, Benedictine, Sisters of Charity, etc. There is only One Church.

Phillystang, go watch The Gods Must be Crazy. Substitute a Bible for the Coke Bottle.

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Last edited by Brain_Mach1; 02-22-2008 at 12:10 PM.
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post #42 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper
I just had an epiphone of stupidity, but Peter obviously had no bible and would not have had any use for one except maybe as kindling.
Why would Paul say that the Church is the Pillar of Faith to Timothy if it was actually the Bible?

Oh that is right, Timothy did not have a Bible since Paul was still in the act of writing it which is evident by the letter itself.

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Last edited by Brain_Mach1; 02-22-2008 at 12:11 PM.
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post #43 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 12:15 PM
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Except you left yourself open to oral tradition aka Clement.

Doesn't change anything though.
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post #44 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 12:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper
Wouldn't the bible be overkill?

Paul didn't need one.

Thomas didn't need one.

In fact there wasn't one around for much of the early church, and the first one (discounting any oral tradition) was condemned as heresy.
They were guided directly by G#d. Today, we need the priest and Mother Mary to tell us what G#d and the Bible are saying. G#d is so angry at the way we are living today, he refuses to talk to anyone without the proper credentials (read white collar).
Live in the light of standardization as directed by the Department of Standards, measured in international engineering units of course.
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post #45 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FSON
They were guided directly by G#d. Today, we need the priest and Mother Mary to tell us what G#d and the Bible are saying. G#d is so angry at the way we are living today, he refuses to talk to anyone without the proper credentials (read white collar).
Live in the light of standardization as directed by the Department of Standards, measured in international engineering units of course.
Until 1965
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post #46 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Casper
Until 1965
Long live the Department of Standardization!
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post #47 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 01:35 PM
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You may want to reformat that. I can't follow it.

PS: he left you a few openings in previous posts that make for a good flanking maneuver
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post #48 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Romans 10
17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Romans 1
1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures

Romans 1
16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
So you agree with me that Faith comes from hearing the message and not from the existance of the Bible? None of the above points to the Bible only. Infact your first quote mentions hearing the Gospel an in being instructed orally.

Moses, David, Nehemiah, and now Paul spoke the message to the people. No Bible in sight!

"Stand fast and hold firm to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours" (2 Thess. 2:15).

"I have much to write to you, but I do not wish to write with pen and ink. Instead, I hope to see you soon when we can talk face to face" (3 John 13).

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post #49 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 01:55 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
If the Bible was EFFICIENT, it would have fewer pages.

Is the Bible SUFFICIENT? The answer is No. Jesus is our saviour not a book.
The Bible points to Jesus, it doesn't point to the Catholic Church. God works and changes hearts through the preaching of the Gospel, not through the preaching of Catholic doctrine. It is no surprise that you continue to avoid the question. You do not believe God's Gospel found in the bible is sufficient for salvation.

Romans 10
17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Romans 1
1Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God— 2the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures

Romans 1
16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."
The Apostles filled their ranks as they died out. Read the Act of the Apostles as a history book instead of reading your view into it.

1 Corinthians 15:2
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

1 Peter 1
24For,
"All men are like grass,
and all their glory is like the flowers of the field;
the grass withers and the flowers fall,
25but the word of the Lord stands forever."[a] And this is the word that was preached to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
Jesus is the word of God. John tells us this. He can not be contained in a simple book.
Right, but is the Bible sufficient for God to bring salvation?

2 Timothy 3
16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
Jesus left a Church of Apostles and disciples not a book. The Bible is not in the Bible but the ApoStles and disciples and a process to fill the ranks is 100% scriptural.
The man made papal system is what you must be referring to. Where is the office of the pope? Where is papal infallibility? Its not there!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
Moses read the Law to the people. Nehemiah read the law to the people. Did Jesus destroy this or fulfill this?
Fulfilled, not sure of your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
Moses organized the priesthood and liturgical worship. David restored the priesthood and liturgical worship. Nehemiah restored the priesthood and liturgical worship. Did Jesus destroy this or fulfill this?
Fulfilled, Christ is our high priest, not some silly Pope figure. 1 Peter 2:5&9 points ot the priesthood of every believer, not just the high and mighty in the Catholic church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
The Bible contains the information for salvations but it is not the source of or path to salvation.
Ephesians 1
13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
The traditions of God are eternal, the traditions of man change as quickly as the birth of a new Protestant denomination.
Or another infallible Papal declaration, lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
There is no such thing as a family church, a bible church, an evangelical church, a cowboy church, a biker church, an integrated church, etc... There is only The Church made up of people with different gifts.
Which has to have the word Catholic on it right? lol


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
There is no such thing as a family church, a bible church, an evangelical church, a cowboy church, a biker church, an integrated church, etc.
yada yada

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
If your gifts are different, you may use them in a specific ministry in the One Church. Now you know why there are Franciscan, Dominican, Benedictine, Sisters of Charity, etc. There is only One Church.
Right right, after you just said there is "no such thing as a family church, a bible church, an evangelical church, a cowboy church, a biker church, an integrated church," you come up with a foreign list of nonbiblical Franciscan, Dominican, Benedictine, Sisters of Charity that you somehow declare as One Church. Quite strange.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
Phillystang, go watch The Gods Must be Crazy. Substitute a Bible for the Coke Bottle.
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post #50 of 127 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper
You may want to reformat that. I can't follow it.

PS: he left you a few openings in previous posts that make for a good flanking maneuver
Just wait. He is currently searching for James White video clips. He will come back with something.

I know he is not busy watching The Gods Must Be Crazy. Phillystang would never read/watch anything I suggested, as I do with some of his suggestions.

I think he is afraid he might be converted if he investigates any source I post.

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