Prophecy 1: (1290 days & 42 Months) - DFWstangs Forums
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post #1 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-22-2007, 07:09 AM Thread Starter
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Prophecy 1: (1290 days & 42 Months)

Prophecy 1: Daniel's 1290 days & Revelation's 42 months (Dan 12:11 & Rev 11:2)
Here's the quick and dirty, then I'll explain it out:

1290 days (a day = a year in prophecy)
1290 Hebrew yrs X .9857 = 1271.553 solar years
583BC (sacrifices taken away in Daniel's time)
-583BC + 1271.533 yrs = 688.533

688AD - The year the muslims started building the Dome of the Rock on the Temple mount in Jerusalem.

42 months
365.24 days in a year (.24 = 1 days ever four years: leap year)
365.24 divided by 12 = 30.44 days in a month
42 months X 30.44 days = 1278.48 years

688.553AD + 1278.48 years = 1967AD

1967AD was the year that the Jews got Jerusalem and their temple mount back. Below, I'll explain the details of these prophecy and how both of these prophecies explained EXACTLY those events that happened, their beginning and the number of years that would pass.

In the Old Testament, twice it says that a day is given as a year regarding prophecy. Hebrew years were 360 day years. History is recorded in solar years, so we have to convert Hebrew years to solar years. The conversion factor is .9857.

1290 days
Daniel 12:11
11 "From the time that the regular (daily) sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days.

NOTE: The way the Hebrews spoke was a bit different than the way we speak today. This prophecy means "from" this event "to" this event will be 1290 days. We'll prove that true...

The Abomination of Desolation is spoken of in many places in the Bible. We know from the verse above that it will be 'set up.' We know from Matthew 24:15 that it will "stand in the holy place" or Mark 13 "standing where it should not be." (the holy place is the temple mount in Jerusalem). We see it described as a man speaking things against God in 2 Thess 2:1-4, but as we will see later, it's just the statements of a man in a building that this is speaking of.

We have two markers:
Start: Daily sacrifice taken away
End: Abomination of Desolation

So, these are very specific events that start and end this 1290 day/year period.

Historians have dated the Jews being taken away into captivity by the Babylonians as being 583BC. Once the Jews have no temple mount to sacrifice on, their priests can no longer give sacrifices. This is when the daily sacrifice was ended.

Best estimates place the decree to build the Dome of the Rock as 687-688AD.

So, convert 1290 Hebrew years to solar years, then add them to 583BC:

1290 x .9857 = 1271.553 solar years

-583BC + 1271.553 yrs = 688.553AD (the year the Dome of the Rock was built)

42 Months

Revelation 11:2
2"Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations (or Gentiles); and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.

In 688.553 AD (according to the prophecy and history) the Dome of the Rock began construction and was built in the OUTER court, just as this prophecy says the Gentiles will rule the outer courts for 42 months (or 42 months of years).

42 x 30.44 days per month = 1278.48 yrs

(Daniel was under a Hebrew/Babylonian 360 calendar, so a conversion is needed. John, the write of Revelation, was under a 365.24 day solar calendar, and so no conversion is needed.)

688.553 + 1278.48 yrs = 1967AD

1967AD is the year the Jews took back the temple mount in the Six Day War.

One of these prophecies was given in the 500BC era and the other in 95-105 AD. The Bible stops at that point. How could they have predicted these two events to the year exactly? They are not vague at all, but VERY specific, so don't claim they are "vague" and can be interpreted in any way you want.

There are 13 of these numerical prophecies. I will not list 6 of them, because 6 happen from around 444BC to 33BC (within the time period the Old and New Testiments were written). People will say that those could've been fabricated for those times, and while it's a ridiculous argument, I'm just not going to bring it up. I'll list the rest, though in other threads.

- Brian
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Last edited by BrianC; 12-22-2007 at 07:23 AM.
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post #2 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-22-2007, 06:51 PM
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you have entirely too much time on your hands. work on the SHO, and read books other than the bible- you'll find that there's more truth in fiction.

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post #3 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-22-2007, 07:30 PM
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why is a day a year in prophecy?
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post #4 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-22-2007, 07:59 PM
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why is a day a year in prophecy?
Because it makes things work.


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post #5 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 07:51 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Shorty
why is a day a year in prophecy?
Don't ask me, ask God:

Numbers 14:34 & Eze 4:5,6 say that a day = a year in prophecy, and we see evidence of that in at least two different prophecies in the Bible: Daniel's 70 weeks and when God prophesies the Hebrews going into captivity in Egypt for 390 years, then 40 years in the desert. He prophesies these things in days, then says, "I give you a day for a year." Again, don't ask me...ask God. I'm just repeating what the Bible says.

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post #6 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 07:53 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by That_Is_My_El_Camino
Because it makes things work.
Besides the fact that God said it in two or three places in the Bible, yes, it just happens to work out perfectly. And in doing so, it defies all statistical possibilities, proving that there is a God that foretold this stuff thousands of years in advance. Atheists really don't like this kind of stuff, because it shows there is a God. I think it's entertaining, personally...

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post #7 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
Don't ask me, ask God:

Numbers 14:34 & Eze 4:5,6 say that a day = a year in prophecy, and we see evidence of that in at least two different prophecies in the Bible: Daniel's 70 weeks and when God prophesies the Hebrews going into captivity in Egypt for 390 years, then 40 years in the desert. He prophesies these things in days, then says, "I give you a day for a year." Again, don't ask me...ask God. I'm just repeating what the Bible says.
Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:5-6 say that they'll be punished a year for every day they sinned. It doesn't say, "From here on out, every time I say 'day,' I really mean 'year.'"


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post #8 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-23-2007, 09:13 PM
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I asked god for the winning lotto numbers once. You see he obviously isn't interested in giving serious answers with his whole "god postiton."
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post #9 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-24-2007, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
Don't ask me, ask God:

Numbers 14:34 & Eze 4:5,6 say that a day = a year in prophecy, and we see evidence of that in at least two different prophecies in the Bible: Daniel's 70 weeks and when God prophesies the Hebrews going into captivity in Egypt for 390 years, then 40 years in the desert. He prophesies these things in days, then says, "I give you a day for a year." Again, don't ask me...ask God. I'm just repeating what the Bible says.
You seem incapable of keeping this in the original thread. Making more threads doesn't add validity.

And because you seem incapable of doing so, I'll just quote what I posted in the other thread.

Quote:
The prophecies are all over the place. In Daniel 4:32 it states: "And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will."

So, if we accept your interpretation of "a time" being 1000 years, then that must mean Nebuchadnezzar dwelled in the fields for 7000 years.

Oops.

Clearly "a time" is any arbitrary amount of time applied to a prophecy, in order to make it "work".

He also specifically calls for days and weeks, and even years at some parts. So, if you're suggesting a day is a year, a week is seven years, and a year is 365 years. When Daniel figures out that the desolation of Jerusalem would last 70 years, that really means 25,550 years? That's quite a bit longer than the entire span of history covered in the bible, much less starting from the time of Daniel. Even if you use 360 years (based on the 360 days in a year of the Jewish calendar), that's still 25,200 years.

Or was that literally 70 years? And if that was literally 70 years, why should we trust that other specifically referred time periods are to be interpreted and not taken literally?

Of course, Michael informs Daniel that he's got 70 weeks to rebuild Jerusalem. 490 days... er years?

And all this time Nebuchadnezzar is out chewing cud with his cattle homies.
Your "prophecies" are bunk. Give it up.

And I'll add to this, that Daniel was already aging when Micheal told him he had 70 weeks to rebuild Jerusalem. Methinks Daniel didn't have the luxury of living ~900 years like Adam & Eve.

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post #10 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-24-2007, 06:11 PM
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You say solar years. The Jews work on a lunar calender.

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post #11 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-24-2007, 11:48 PM
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See? This is what happens when you stop thinking for yourself.

BTW: I'm no atheist, however every atheist that I have ever met has been more spiritually inclined and thoughtful than ANY mainstream religious counterpart on the other side.

It's easy to spout-off scripture, even when it is taken out of context, and claim *whatever* in the name of God. What it really is, is Blasphemy.

It's simple really:

Accept that we aren't alone in the universe (if you do, you suffer from arrogance),
and we all are the same on a genetic level (you aren't better b/c of your skin).
Don't believe everything you hear or read. Especially when your life is involved.
Think for yourself.
If it works for you, it might not work for everyone else.
And above all else:
Don't assert authority over your peers and you won't seem like an asshole and subsequently alienated from them.

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post #12 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-25-2007, 05:35 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
You say solar years. The Jews work on a lunar calender.
Jews had a 360 day year, just as the Babylonians did. You can prove this in Genesis around the time of the flood, if I'm not mistaken. It talks about a certain number of months and days and half a year, and it comes right out to 30 day months and 180 days for half a year. You should really go look at what historians say about this. All agree on the old Jewish Calendar being a 360 day calendar.

Besides, doesn't the moon have a perfect 12 month (30 day months, 360 day year) pattern it travels around the earth?

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post #13 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-25-2007, 05:40 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by That_Is_My_El_Camino
Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:5-6 say that they'll be punished a year for every day they sinned. It doesn't say, "From here on out, every time I say 'day,' I really mean 'year.'"
It doesn't matter. The point is that God is prophesying the future, and in this future, He is prophesying that a day equals a year. In Numbers He says that each day they sinned will be a year you must bear your guilt. A day = a year. Then, in Eze 4:5,6 it says, "For I have assigned you a number of days corresponding to the years of their iniquity, three hundred and ninety days; thus (A)you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.

Once again, a day = a year when God is prophesying.

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post #14 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-25-2007, 06:01 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DarkWolf
The prophecies are all over the place. In Daniel 4:32 it states: "And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will."

So, if we accept your interpretation of "a time" being 1000 years, then that must mean Nebuchadnezzar dwelled in the fields for 7000 years.

Oops.
No where in prophecy do you see God saying "Seven times." This is not a "times" prophecy, obviously. Besides, if you were a Hebrew scholar or had done any research on this type of thing at all, you'd know that "seven times" is a saying the Jews had. Nebuchadennar commanded the furnace to be made 7 times hotter, but obviously they couldn't make the furnace 7 times hotter. It's just an expression.

A disciples comes up to Christ and says, "We are told to forgive our brother seven times in a day." It's just a saying. Seven is the number of completion in the Bible (6 days of creation and 1 of rest, and the week and creation are complete). If someone says something like seven times hotter, they mean a fire that is as hot as they can get it, or completely hot. When you are commanded to forgive someone seven times in a day, it means to COMPLETELY forgive them all they do.

You should really look into this stuff if you're going to try and debate it. It's like a Buddhist trying to debate a Christian, but the Buddhist barely knows anything about the Bible or Christianity. He has no business even attempting to debate a Christian topic unless he first learns it.

The Nebuchadnezzar prophecy is simply saying that when he, Nebuchadnezzar, is completely humbled, then he will know that The Most High rules. That's it.

Also, you forgot a key thing, here. Daniel is prophesying to a non-Jew. Jews understood day=year prophecies and even "time" prophecies back in those days, most likely. But Daniel is speaking to Nebuchadnezzar, a Babylonian, who has no clue about the way God prophesies to the Jews. Why would God use unknown terms when He would want to be completely clear with Nebuchadnezzar on this prophecy? We KNOW Nebuchadnezzar understood the "seven times" saying/lingo of that day, because he himself uses it when he says to make the furnace seven times hotter.

Your explanations are 'bunk,' as you say...


Quote:
Your "prophecies" are bunk. Give it up.

And I'll add to this, that Daniel was already aging when Micheal told him he had 70 weeks to rebuild Jerusalem. Methinks Daniel didn't have the luxury of living ~900 years like Adam & Eve.
First of all, it was Gabriel that spoke with Daniel. Secondly, Daniel was not told to rebuild Jerusalem. The start of the prophecy was said to be at the command to rebuild Jerusalem. Daniel was dead when the command to rebuild Jerusalem was given in 444BC. The prophecy was given to Daniel in 536BC.

The prophecies aren't "bunk" just because you don't understand them properly and haven't ever studied Hebrew literary styles. Ignorance doesn't make the prophecies "bunk" as you say.

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post #15 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-25-2007, 06:22 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mateo5.0
See? This is what happens when you stop thinking for yourself.
Since the ignorance of DarkWolf's post as been exposed, I guess this statement of yours is null and void now.

See what happens when you try to debate something you are completely ignorant about?

And besides, I am one that tears every teacher apart to see if they are lining up with the Bible. I don't just take people's word and believe it. I am the world's worst about taking preachers apart if they are teaching something unbiblical. I listen to no one and blindly believe. I read the book The False Prophet where I learned this stuff 3 times, and I did what I could to make sure these historical dates were accurate, and they were. I can't refute these prophecies. They're dead on accurate. ANY statistician will tell you that these prophecies MUST be accurate, no one changed any time periods to make anything fit because the time periods are all logically deduced with no one modifying anything, and these are statistical impossibilities so there must be a God behind them. Period.

You all are just so incredibly determined to make these not true because you don't want to be accountable to the God of the Bible for some reason. That's your issue, not mine. Don't make me debate your personal baggage and issues.

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BTW: I'm no atheist, however every atheist that I have ever met has been more spiritually inclined and thoughtful than ANY mainstream religious counterpart on the other side.

It's easy to spout-off scripture, even when it is taken out of context, and claim *whatever* in the name of God. What it really is, is Blasphemy.
And that's exactly what you all are trying to do to me. I'm taking scripture COMPLETELY in context and modifying NOTHING and making NOTHING fit anything I want it to fit. It simply says what it says and it fits history perfectly to the year 13 times. I can't help that. That's what God says, and it happened, and you won't accept it. That's your problem, not mine. LEARN this stuff before you go debating it.

And you're probably right about Christians, or you have only known average Christians. The average Christian nowadays is not much of an example for what a real Christian should be. Most are not deep thinkers when it comes to the Bible and spirituality. Most have no time for the Bible or God, just a church service once a week. A lot of people like to condemn others and look down on them. None of this is what a Christian should be.

Quote:

It's simple really:

Accept that we aren't alone in the universe (if you do, you suffer from arrogance),
This is a ridiculous statement (basically propoganda from scientists wanting funding, or 'intellectuals' wanting to make others look bad or arrogant and therefore 'less than themselves.'). The reason I believe no life is out in the universe is simply because I have never seen it and we have zero proof that there is any life anywhere. PERIOD. Until there's proof, it's JUST A THEORY, kind of like evolution and the big bang and the creation theory.

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and we all are the same on a genetic level (you aren't better b/c of your skin).
I believe we are all the same on a genetic and on a spiritual level. No one's better than anyone else, even from Christians to non-Christians, saved to unsaved. Everyone's the same to me. Couldn't care less about what they look like or believe in.
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Don't believe everything you hear or read. Especially when your life is involved.
Think for yourself.
I completely agree and practice this very heavily. I would add this though, "When you see something that is obviously true and that is irrefutible and 100% proveable, you believe it." You all haven't gotten this one down yet, though, because you don't like the idiot religious (and I agree with you, I don't like the religious as a whole either...most try to enslave people to legalism and into taking a preacher's word for it) and you don't want to be accountable to the Christian God. ANYONE with half a brain can see that 13 prophecies over thousands of years are completely impossible to predict unless you're God and can see the future. Period. It's your BELIEFS that are getting in the way of both halves of your brain and the logic you would normally have in a situation like this.
Quote:
If it works for you, it might not work for everyone else.
I agree. But look for truth in all situations and learn what truth is, and learn what is just a farce. If you don't, you'll enslave yourself to a bunch of lies all your life.
Quote:
And above all else:
Don't assert authority over your peers and you won't seem like an asshole and subsequently alienated from them.
I assert absolutely no authority over anyone. I discuss things in a rational manner and talks about the facts and share information with others. If they want to debate it, that's fine. If they want to believe it or not believe it, that's fine. I couldn't care less what people do with the information I give them. But when they come back at me and say, "You're wrong! You're an idiot!" I'm going to make them prove it and debate the points they claim I'm wrong on. So far, no one has disproven ANY of these prophecies. Not one. Nor have they given any credible reasons for why these prophecies are statistically impossible unless God gave them. There's no authority being asserted here. It's all about sharing information. That's it.

If you're going to debate something, though, learn something about it first and stop just throwing out random things or looking on websites for little pieces of information you think solves the problem. Learn to do some ACTUAL research for yourself and spend time doing it instead of being impatient and only researching things for a few minutes. I study things for months and years sometimes. I spend a few hours every morning studying things. I didn't just read a quick book and I magically know all of this stuff. I studied for years and years.

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post #16 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-25-2007, 04:12 PM
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so how many days did it rain when Noah had his ark? I remember it being 40 days and 40 nights, so obviously it was actually 40 years?
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post #17 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-26-2007, 02:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
No where in prophecy do you see God saying "Seven times." This is not a "times" prophecy, obviously. Besides, if you were a Hebrew scholar or had done any research on this type of thing at all, you'd know that "seven times" is a saying the Jews had. Nebuchadennar commanded the furnace to be made 7 times hotter, but obviously they couldn't make the furnace 7 times hotter. It's just an expression.
It's pretty goddamn clear... "and SEVEN TIMES SHALL PASS OVER THEE"

That is clearly an indication of a passage of time, not a saying Jews had.

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You should really look into this stuff if you're going to try and debate it. It's like a Buddhist trying to debate a Christian, but the Buddhist barely knows anything about the Bible or Christianity. He has no business even attempting to debate a Christian topic unless he first learns it.
There's only one person here needing a lesson in christianity, and it certainly isn't me.

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The Nebuchadnezzar prophecy is simply saying that when he, Nebuchadnezzar, is completely humbled, then he will know that The Most High rules. That's it.
And it will take the passage of seven times to do this.

Quote:
Also, you forgot a key thing, here. Daniel is prophesying to a non-Jew. Jews understood day=year prophecies and even "time" prophecies back in those days, most likely.
That would be mighty convenient. But you have nothing to back up this claim, so it remains just your pet theory. And, to be specific it was God (or at least a messenger of God) speaking to Neb. As shown in Daniel 4:31

"31 The words were still on his lips when a voice came from heaven, "This is what is decreed for you, King Nebuchadnezzar: Your royal authority has been taken from you. 32 You will be driven away from people and will live with the wild animals; you will eat grass like cattle. Seven times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that the Most High is sovereign over the kingdoms of men and gives them to anyone he wishes.""

Quote:
First of all, it was Gabriel that spoke with Daniel. Secondly, Daniel was not told to rebuild Jerusalem. The start of the prophecy was said to be at the command to rebuild Jerusalem. Daniel was dead when the command to rebuild Jerusalem was given in 444BC. The prophecy was given to Daniel in 536BC.
Ah, yeah you're right it was Gabriel, my bad. However:

"23At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

The moment his prayer started, is when the commandment was given to end the transgression/rebuild Jerusalem. At least according to the bible.

Quote:
Since the ignorance of DarkWolf's post as been exposed,
HA, you made a funny!

Wait, you were serious?

Hell, that makes it even funnier!

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I'm taking scripture COMPLETELY in context and modifying NOTHING and making NOTHING fit anything I want it to fit.
Well, nothing except changing the definition of days to years, and applying 1000 years to "a time".

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I have never seen it and we have zero proof that there is any life anywhere. PERIOD.
Zero is showing that you have no idea what you're spewing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterrestrial_life

There's not 100% concrete evidence, but there are signs and suggestions.

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post #18 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-26-2007, 07:52 AM Thread Starter
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so how many days did it rain when Noah had his ark? I remember it being 40 days and 40 nights, so obviously it was actually 40 years?
It wasn't a prophecy. It was a story. This is a ridiculous argument...

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post #19 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-26-2007, 07:57 AM Thread Starter
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It's pretty goddamn clear... "and SEVEN TIMES SHALL PASS OVER THEE"

That is clearly an indication of a passage of time, not a saying Jews had.
I'm done arguing with you. I don't deal with pride. You just don't want to be wrong here. That's all this is. Yes, the Jews do have a saying and the Babylonians have it too. "Seven times" is the saying. It's used in the Bible plenty of times. I'm done with this conversation. If this were a debate in person, I'd walk away if someone spoke to me the way you just did. That's completely uncalled for. No offense, but I'm ignoring you at this point.

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post #20 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-26-2007, 09:14 AM
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It wasn't a prophecy. It was a story. This is a ridiculous argument...
So 'days' only means 'years' in prophecies? You're right, it is rediculous.
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post #21 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-26-2007, 05:52 PM
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I'm done arguing with you. I don't deal with pride. You just don't want to be wrong here. That's all this is. Yes, the Jews do have a saying and the Babylonians have it too. "Seven times" is the saying. It's used in the Bible plenty of times. I'm done with this conversation. If this were a debate in person, I'd walk away if someone spoke to me the way you just did. That's completely uncalled for. No offense, but I'm ignoring you at this point.
HA! I'm quoting the bible word for word. You're the one making shit up. "Oh it was a saying they had back then!" Please. You're just upset that your "undeniable proof" has been so easily discounted, by even the very source of your "proof".

Zorro had a similar tact, and he similarly failed when his "indisputable proof" was easily disputed.

The thing that you, and he fail to realize, is that WE CANNOT KNOW FOR CERTAIN. That's why it's called "faith", because YOU DON'T KNOW. You believe. Belief does not equate to proof.

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post #22 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-27-2007, 02:03 AM
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well first off, if you are gonna post prophecies from the bible, make sure you post the entire thing, not pieces of it from the bible or little 2 word quotes that can easily be taken out of context. On top of that, how do we know what a day was back then? or a year? Id love to see some references showing exactly what each one consisted of back then and how we know it. How we think now is certainly not how people thought back in the day.

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post #23 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-27-2007, 02:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
It doesn't matter. The point is that God is prophesying the future, and in this future, He is prophesying that a day equals a year. In Numbers He says that each day they sinned will be a year you must bear your guilt. A day = a year. Then, in Eze 4:5,6 it says, "For I have assigned you a number of days corresponding to the years of their iniquity, three hundred and ninety days; thus (A)you shall bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.

Once again, a day = a year when God is prophesying.

side note when did god physically write the bible? last checked he hasnt written anything for us to read, instead the bible was written by people.... and i wanna say the bible has even been changed by changing languages and by a few kings who needed it to say other things....

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post #24 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-27-2007, 08:20 AM
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We've had some disillusioned cats on this board before, but you take the cake.

5 years before BrianC is committed to an insane asylum. Who wants the over?
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post #25 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-27-2007, 10:29 AM
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BrianC....

you aren't stupid. But you might as well believe in Nostradamus.

I think it's amazing that all this history has been written down for over two thousand years, albeit changed countless times over....

Yes, I know that it's hard to believe it, but your fellow man of the faith has betrayed you on this one. From generation to generation, two thousand years worth of knowledge and theology- Changed and re-translated many, many times over not only to cement the peoples faith, but to re-assert power that might be lost if not published and worshiped. Not to mention, the main reason behind religious expansion was to control the minds of the people.

But besides the fact that the church has a sketchy past, what with burning people, drowning them, massacring millions, and charging them gold to get into heaven. Why on earth would you believe that they haven't been altered? But no let's all believe that in no way, fashion or form, that the "prophecies" have not been altered. Let's all sit back and-
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
"I listen to no one and blindly believe."
^I guess that explains it all...

And it's entertaining to read them and make associations with worldly historic events, and especially easy when they give you a road map to do so. All these are meant to do is cement your faith with the rest of the ideology and hopefully "secure your place in heaven". Guess what? Heaven is on earth (it is written), and how you live determines your heaven, not your afterlife (not written). The Bible is a great book with many lessons that apply to our modern lives, but beyond that it is mostly fiction and/or metaphor. A lot of it is based on true, historic events that really happened. But most of it is not.

It is humbling to realize how many priests, kings, popes, translators that the writings have passed down through- NOT EVEN TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THAT MOST OF THE LANGUAGES SPOKEN BACK THEN ARE NOW DEAD.

You can't polish a turd BrianC. Do all the research you want, it will just cement you further into the doctrine that has been written by man, for man.

Personally, I'd rather read Nostradamus. It makes for much lighter reading!

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post #26 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-27-2007, 11:22 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ClockwrkOrangeS4
So 'days' only means 'years' in prophecies? You're right, it is rediculous.
Yes, only in prophecies, just like the Bible said. I'm not making this up. I showed where it says this in two verses: Num 14:34 and Eze 4:5,6

It can't get much more clear than that. I don't make up the rules.

And, as it happens, the day = year just happens to work with every prophecy and ends on significant dates everytime. That's a statistical impossibility.

I also showed how it was a saying back then for people to say "seven times" using the Bible itself as proof, yet some refuse to believe that.

31 verses total, here are some of them. I made up nothing...

Pro 24:16
Psm 12:6
2 Kings 5:10
Isa 30:26
Dan 3:19 (Babylonians use "seven times" phrase)
Mat 18:21,22 (Jesus uses it)
Luke 17:4

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post #27 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-27-2007, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by BrianC
Yes, only in prophecies, just like the Bible said. I'm not making this up. I showed where it says this in two verses: Num 14:34 and Eze 4:5,6

It can't get much more clear than that. I don't make up the rules.

And, as it happens, the day = year just happens to work with every prophecy and ends on significant dates everytime. That's a statistical impossibility.

I also showed how it was a saying back then for people to say "seven times" using the Bible itself as proof, yet some refuse to believe that.

31 verses total, here are some of them. I made up nothing...

Pro 24:16
Psm 12:6
2 Kings 5:10
Isa 30:26
Dan 3:19 (Babylonians use "seven times" phrase)
Mat 18:21,22 (Jesus uses it)
Luke 17:4


Brian, you aren't making anything up. It has already been made up for you.

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post #28 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-27-2007, 12:55 PM
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I'll list the rest, though in other threads.
Waiting on these other Prophecies in other threads you mentioned....
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post #29 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-27-2007, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
Yes, only in prophecies, just like the Bible said. I'm not making this up. I showed where it says this in two verses: Num 14:34 and Eze 4:5,6
Umm... Numbers 14:34 is just God saying he will punish them a year for each day they sinned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbers 14
32But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness. 33And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.

34After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

35I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.
No where does that suggest that a day = a year in prophecy.

Let's look a Ezekiel, shall we?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel 4
4Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity. 5For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.

6And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
Here, he's saying "you will bear their iniquity for a number of days equalling the number of years of their iniquity" On the left side you'll lay there for 390 days, because of the 390 years of iniquity of the house of Isreal. 40 days on the right side for the 40 years of iniquity of the house of Judah.

This is bearing the sins of the house of Isreal and Judah. Again, no where does it suggest that a day = a year in prophecy.

Quote:
I don't make up the rules.
Apparently, you do.

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post #30 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-27-2007, 09:16 PM
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We've had some disillusioned cats on this board before, but you take the cake.

5 years before BrianC is committed to an insane asylum. Who wants the over?
don't you mean 5 days?
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post #31 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-27-2007, 09:31 PM
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It's okay, he just believes too much. Like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny!

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post #32 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-27-2007, 10:41 PM
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Where is the support, from other students of the bible, in this forum for this post?

Does anyone agree that this prophecy has been completed as BrianC has outlined? If it is as he says, I would expect it to be common knowledge to those who study the Book of Daniel? Is that the case?

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post #33 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-28-2007, 07:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jones4stangs
Where is the support, from other students of the bible, in this forum for this post?

Does anyone agree that this prophecy has been completed as BrianC has outlined? If it is as he says, I would expect it to be common knowledge to those who study the Book of Daniel? Is that the case?
If it is as he says, it would be common knowledge. But he, like many people professing to have some previously unseen revelatory knowledge, has the problem of complete lack of any biblical [edit] or scholarly [/edit] support for his claims.

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Last edited by DarkWolf; 12-28-2007 at 11:01 AM.
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post #34 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-28-2007, 09:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
I didn't just read a quick book and I magically know all of this stuff.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
I read the book The False Prophet where I learned this stuff 3 times.
That one's just funny.


-------------------------------------------------


Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
I don't deal with pride.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
I am one that tears every teacher apart to see if they are lining up with the Bible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
I am the world's worst about taking preachers apart if they are teaching something unbiblical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
I study things for months and years sometimes. I spend a few hours every morning studying things.

Humility in action, right?

-------------------------------------------------


Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
A lot of people like to condemn others and look down on them. None of this is what a Christian should be.

Quote:
This is a ridiculous statement (basically propoganda from scientists wanting funding, or 'intellectuals' wanting to make others look bad or arrogant and therefore 'less than themselves.').
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
ANYONE with half a brain can see....

How's the view from your pedestal?

------------------------------------------------


Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
I agree. But look for truth in all situations and learn what truth is, and learn what is just a farce. If you don't, you'll enslave yourself to a bunch of lies all your life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
I study things for months and years sometimes. I spend a few hours every morning studying things. I didn't just read a quick book and I magically know all of this stuff. I studied for years and years.


"A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely
rearranging their prejudices."

- William James


----------------------------




"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two
opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to
function."


- F. Scott Fitzgerald




.

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post #35 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-31-2007, 07:03 AM Thread Starter
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Never said I was perfect. I also admitted that for a while I was acting untasteful toward some of you so I stopped it. Either way, it doesn't negate that what I'm telling you is the truth, and unchanged for thousands of years and a statistical impossibility that you cannot disprove.

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post #36 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-31-2007, 07:08 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by DarkWolf
If it is as he says, it would be common knowledge. But he, like many people professing to have some previously unseen revelatory knowledge, has the problem of complete lack of any biblical [edit] or scholarly [/edit] support for his claims.
I have given plenty of biblical support for my claims. And you do not need scholarly support. lol That's too funny. What do scholars have to do with this? The writer of the book The False Prophet that shows all of these prophecies is a biblical scholar who has written many books on Christianity and the Bible. But The False Prophet was only written in 2004, so there has been little to no time to get any real major support for it by anyone. And the book hasn't been advertised hardly at all to get support, because there's not budget for widespread advertising.

Also, you must take into account the power of pride in the religious world. Most preachers believe in a future seven year tribulation that's not true. And when they are told they're incorrect, they're unwilling to believe it, or they're unwilling to admit they could be wrong or have been teaching a lie to their people. So you get a lot of people not wanting to support the idea that they're wrong and have taught incorrectly for years. You'd besurprized how many preachers are this prideful and unwilling to admit wrong doing.

I love to be proven wrong and shown the truth, because it allows me to find more truth. So far, not one of you has given any reasonable explanation for how these prophecies could come true apart from an all-powerful God. So, I will not change my view on this. A lot of preachers, though, are not at all like this. It's just pride in their teachings, traditions and handed down beliefs. I seek truth, regardless of whether it's what I believe or not.

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post #37 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-31-2007, 07:30 AM Thread Starter
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Umm... Numbers 14:34 is just God saying he will punish them a year for each day they sinned.

No where does that suggest that a day = a year in prophecy.
Oh, now we've reached a paramount time on this board where an atheist is trying to tell me how to interpret the Bible. This is classic...

He is PROPHESYING to the Hebrews about what's going to happen to them. He says:

Num 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye
searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year.

So, yes, He says "each DAY FOR A YEAR" in His prophecy.

Quote:
Let's look a Ezekiel, shall we?
Yes, let's!

Quote:
Here, he's saying "you will bear their iniquity for a number of days equalling the number of years of their iniquity" On the left side you'll lay there for 390 days, because of the 390 years of iniquity of the house of Isreal. 40 days on the right side for the 40 years of iniquity of the house of Judah.

This is bearing the sins of the house of Isreal and Judah. Again, no where does it suggest that a day = a year in prophecy.
Are you blind, man? I mean, really... It says, plain as day, in this PROPHECY to the Hebrews:

"I have assigned it to you for forty days, a day for each year." (NASB)

Therefore, when God gives prophecies to people, he gives it in A DAY = A YEAR FORMAT. Why? I haven't the foggiest idea. Think of it this way. Why the heck would God not just give the prophecy in a year = a year format in the first place? Why did He bother giving it in a day = a year format? Because He knew full well at the end of Daniel that people were not supposed to figure out the prophecies until all of the prophecies in Daniel had been fulfilled. He tells Daniel, "He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time."

So, God has this way of concealing things from people so that they will not figure them out in advance for some reason. The "time of the end" is after the "time of the Gentiles." The "time of the Gentiles" is when Gentiles rule the temple mount, as they did for the past 2500 some odd years. That ended when the Jews got it back in 1967, so the time of the Gentiles is over, and the time of the end is afterwords. We're told prophecies about the time of the Gentiles being complete and stuff like that... we know how to define when these begin and end, but I won't go into it now.

Sure enough, no one figured out the numerical prophecies until about the late 70's to early 80's. And it took years and years of research to figure out all 13 of them completely. And in 2004, the research was completed and put down in a book finally, many years after the time of the end began. God has reasons for the way He does things, but I'm not claiming I know why. I'm giving my best explanation, and this makes sense, I suppose.

The point is that regardless of what the Bible says about a day = a year, Daniel's prophecies about the 70 weeks came true within Bible times. God gave Daniel a prophecy about 7 weeks + 62 weeks + 1 week (70 weeks). God told what would happen in the first 69 weeks and how it would end, and sure enough, every prophecy came to pass in those 69 weeks, ending with the crucifiction of Jesus. One came to pass on the year the last book of the Old Testament was written, which was prophesied in the first 7 weeks of the 69 weeks, and the rest were fulfilled with Jesus. Therefore, we see that Daniel's prophecy came to pass in a day = a year format, yet God did not say to Daniel, "each day equals a year." Daniel either new this on his own, or we were just supposed to figure it out. Daniel's prophecy says it starts at the time the command goes out to rebuild Jerusalem, and that there will be trouble building the wall. Sure enough, the command goes out in 445-444BC and there is a LOT of trouble while building the wall. Then, we're told that Messiah is cut off, sins are forgiven, eternal righteousness is brought in, etc., ect.. This all happens in the next part of the 69 weeks. If you do the math from Hebrew to Solar years, then you add the years, you get 32-33AD, the year Jesus was crusified.

So, again, regardless of what you believe the Bible says or doesn't say about a day equaling a year doesn't negate the fact that Daniel's first 7 prophecies about 70 weeks came to pass exactly as stated in a day = a year format. You have absolutely NO leg to stand on here. Would you like me to lay out the 70 weeks prophecies for you? I can do that too, because one of them actually comes out with a 1948 date, so they aren't completely held within the time of the Bible.


Apparently, you do.[/QUOTE]

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post #38 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-31-2007, 07:57 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mateo5.0
BrianC....

you aren't stupid. But you might as well believe in Nostradamus.
Nostradamus was most likely a fraud. His prophecies were incredibly vague and could be attributed to any event in the future. Also, people have forged his prophesies and then said, "look, it came true on this date," yet Nostradamus never made that prophecy at all. I couldn't care less about Nostradamus.

Quote:
I think it's amazing that all this history has been written down for over two thousand years, albeit changed countless times over....
Oh really? Please explain how history has been changed countless times over. And I'd especially like an explanation as to how people changed history to meet these prophecies when no one has understood these prophecies until the late 70's - early 2000's.

Quote:
Yes, I know that it's hard to believe it, but your fellow man of the faith has betrayed you on this one. From generation to generation, two thousand years worth of knowledge and theology- Changed and re-translated many, many times over not only to cement the peoples faith, but to re-assert power that might be lost if not published and worshiped. Not to mention, the main reason behind religious expansion was to control the minds of the people.
You actually believe this crap, don't you? LOL That's too funny. Please allow me to make your belief look like ridiculousness.

First of all, I must say, which is it? Did history change or did the Bible change? Because you first assert that history has been altered many times, then you say the Bible has been altered many times. Which is it? Both?

Next, let's get into how the Bible HAS NOT changed and how we can prove it.

1. There are over 27,000 original copies of the original manuscript scrolls. They are basically identical.

2. These scrolls come from TONS of different countries or origin, which means EVERY person that EVER copied the original scrolls would've had to have met up with everyone ELSE that copied a scroll, and changed that scroll to meet the changes in the other scrolls.

3. These scrolls are so meticulously copied that if one letter is incorrect, they will burn the entire scroll so that nothing is tainted. They count every letter of every word, and the number of words in each scroll. It's extremely maticulous. I'll give a link to an explanation for this at the bottom of this post.

4. Over the years, EVERY scroll EVERY found would have to be collected into the same place and modified in its original form on the original parchment paper in order to change the Bible without anyone knowing, yet not one of the scrolls has evidence that they were altered in any way.

5. The original Hebrew & Greek NEVER change on these scrolls, and therefore, can be accurately translated, as they have for a couple thousand years now.

6. In 1948, we found the Dead Sea Scrolls in the Middle East, hidden in caves off the shores of the Dead Sea. These scrolls were untouched for over 2000 years, and they contain only the Old Testament books of the Bible. When compared to the scrolls we have had for over two thousand years, they are exactly a like, proving that not one Old Testament scroll has been changed in over two thousand years. These Dead Sea scrolls have been dated to 300BC, approximately.

7. The New Testament scrolls are compared with scrolls we found around 900 AD, which again, were not modified one bit. We have tons of scrolls to compare with, all of which agree with each other. From time to time, you find missing scripture which most likely happened due to someone copying from a torn scroll or something to that extent, but that is rare. The other thousands of scrolls are identical, regardless of the few incomplete scrolls.

Here is a link to an explanation for this. It's not long, and it shows how it is utterly impossible to pull of a modification of the original scrolls that make up the Old and New Testament and gives 100% proof that we have the accurate, unchanged scrolls today.

http://www.ellisskolfield.com/manusc...may-2006.shtml

On top of that, we can go back to the old Strong's references to get the single meaning of each word in the Hebrew and Greek, and you can compare this to the original ancient Hebrew and ancient Greek dictionaries to see that it is correct. Then, you can go back to the 1611 King James Version (the original) and see that the words are translated almost exactly like they're supposed to be, with the exception for VERY VERY few little translated words that were simply a misunderstanding of the translators due to the passage not making sense. For instance, the fourth horseman in prophecy is riding a green horse, but they translated it to be a pale horse from the "pale green" possibility of this word. They see horses day in and day out and didn't understand how a horse could be green. So they translated it "pale" instead. They didn't realize it was symbolism, and the color was symbolic, not literal, so they made a mistake on that one. But those are few and far between. VERY very few. 99.999999999% of the words are completely translated correct and can be checked out with any ancient Hebrew or ancient Greek dictionary.

In other words, our Bible scrolls and the King James Version is pretty much 100% accurate and unchanged, without a doubt. The NASB is the next best modern translation. The rest of the Bibles lack a bit, because the translators took liberties with the translated words, and that was really stupid. However, regardless of what they changed through translation errors, it didn't change the overall message and it definitely never changed the prophecies I've stated in these posts. Therefore, you have absolutely no leg to stand on with your accusation. Every Bible scholar in the world would laugh you out of a debate if you said this. They all know they're accurate, and that's why your view on a modified Bible is not a view held by any of the major Bible scholars.

Quote:
But besides the fact that the church has a sketchy past, what with burning people, drowning them, massacring millions, and charging them gold to get into heaven. Why on earth would you believe that they haven't been altered? But no let's all believe that in no way, fashion or form, that the "prophecies" have not been altered. Let's all sit back and-

^I guess that explains it all...
Wow, the delusion continues further.

Alright, let's assume for a moment that the church DID change the original Bible manuscripts (which, as we've seen, is impossible). How, pre-tell, did people in the 1500's change the Bible to FIT these prophecies that would not come to pass till 1776, 1948 and 1967? I ask, because we know the Bible hasn't changed since the 1611 with the introduction of the King James Version. We have other Bibles earlier than that to confirm this, and the scrolls as well. How on earth would these people change prophecies 200-400+ years before they came to pass? How would they know? They couldn't! Your theory is completely and utterly ridiculous. Seriously...you should think these things through and do some studying before you make ridiculous off-the-top-of-your-head comments like this. It just shows how you really haven't researched this stuff and that you haven't a clue what you're talking about. You're just thinking up possible explanations that make sense to you and would appear to make these prophecies look fraudulent. Sorry, but your arguments are ridiculous...

Quote:
And it's entertaining to read them and make associations with worldly historic events, and especially easy when they give you a road map to do so. All these are meant to do is cement your faith with the rest of the ideology and hopefully "secure your place in heaven". Guess what? Heaven is on earth (it is written), and how you live determines your heaven, not your afterlife (not written). The Bible is a great book with many lessons that apply to our modern lives, but beyond that it is mostly fiction and/or metaphor. A lot of it is based on true, historic events that really happened. But most of it is not.
That's funny, because historians say that the Bible is one of the most accurate and best history books we have, and it has yet to be disproven. We have found countless evidences of events and time periods in the Bible with completely accuracy to the texts. In fact, we know the Bible was written in exactly the time periods and the places it says it was written because the terminology changes by the culture. Daniel was written while the Jews were in Babylon. Low and behold, there is Babylonian sayings in Daniel. So we know he was actually there when he wrote it at that time period. You really have ABSOLUTELY NOT ARGUMENT here. You've been completely disproven on your points. Get over it.

Quote:
It is humbling to realize how many priests, kings, popes, translators that the writings have passed down through- NOT EVEN TAKING INTO ACCOUNT THAT MOST OF THE LANGUAGES SPOKEN BACK THEN ARE NOW DEAD.
Hebrew is not dead by any means. Ask any Jew to speak it for you. The only thing that's changed is that it's old Hebrew. Most any Hebrew speaker can give you a pretty darn good translation of the Hebrew scrolls from the Old Testament.

Also, ancient Greek is WELL documented and easily translatible. What's laughable is that you actually think you know something about this stuff when it's blatantly obvious that you don't.

- Brian
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post #39 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-31-2007, 07:59 AM
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Since the ignorance of DarkWolf's post as been exposed, I guess this statement of yours is null and void now.

See what happens when you try to debate something you are completely ignorant about?

And besides, I am one that tears every teacher apart to see if they are lining up with the Bible. I don't just take people's word and believe it. I am the world's worst about taking preachers apart if they are teaching something unbiblical. I listen to no one and blindly believe. I read the book The False Prophet where I learned this stuff 3 times, and I did what I could to make sure these historical dates were accurate, and they were. I can't refute these prophecies. They're dead on accurate. ANY statistician will tell you that these prophecies MUST be accurate, no one changed any time periods to make anything fit because the time periods are all logically deduced with no one modifying anything, and these are statistical impossibilities so there must be a God behind them. Period.

You all are just so incredibly determined to make these not true because you don't want to be accountable to the God of the Bible for some reason. That's your issue, not mine. Don't make me debate your personal baggage and issues.


And that's exactly what you all are trying to do to me. I'm taking scripture COMPLETELY in context and modifying NOTHING and making NOTHING fit anything I want it to fit. It simply says what it says and it fits history perfectly to the year 13 times. I can't help that. That's what God says, and it happened, and you won't accept it. That's your problem, not mine. LEARN this stuff before you go debating it.

And you're probably right about Christians, or you have only known average Christians. The average Christian nowadays is not much of an example for what a real Christian should be. Most are not deep thinkers when it comes to the Bible and spirituality. Most have no time for the Bible or God, just a church service once a week. A lot of people like to condemn others and look down on them. None of this is what a Christian should be.


This is a ridiculous statement (basically propoganda from scientists wanting funding, or 'intellectuals' wanting to make others look bad or arrogant and therefore 'less than themselves.'). The reason I believe no life is out in the universe is simply because I have never seen it and we have zero proof that there is any life anywhere. PERIOD. Until there's proof, it's JUST A THEORY, kind of like evolution and the big bang and the creation theory.


I believe we are all the same on a genetic and on a spiritual level. No one's better than anyone else, even from Christians to non-Christians, saved to unsaved. Everyone's the same to me. Couldn't care less about what they look like or believe in.

I completely agree and practice this very heavily. I would add this though, "When you see something that is obviously true and that is irrefutible and 100% proveable, you believe it." You all haven't gotten this one down yet, though, because you don't like the idiot religious (and I agree with you, I don't like the religious as a whole either...most try to enslave people to legalism and into taking a preacher's word for it) and you don't want to be accountable to the Christian God. ANYONE with half a brain can see that 13 prophecies over thousands of years are completely impossible to predict unless you're God and can see the future. Period. It's your BELIEFS that are getting in the way of both halves of your brain and the logic you would normally have in a situation like this.

I agree. But look for truth in all situations and learn what truth is, and learn what is just a farce. If you don't, you'll enslave yourself to a bunch of lies all your life.

I assert absolutely no authority over anyone. I discuss things in a rational manner and talks about the facts and share information with others. If they want to debate it, that's fine. If they want to believe it or not believe it, that's fine. I couldn't care less what people do with the information I give them. But when they come back at me and say, "You're wrong! You're an idiot!" I'm going to make them prove it and debate the points they claim I'm wrong on. So far, no one has disproven ANY of these prophecies. Not one. Nor have they given any credible reasons for why these prophecies are statistically impossible unless God gave them. There's no authority being asserted here. It's all about sharing information. That's it.

If you're going to debate something, though, learn something about it first and stop just throwing out random things or looking on websites for little pieces of information you think solves the problem. Learn to do some ACTUAL research for yourself and spend time doing it instead of being impatient and only researching things for a few minutes. I study things for months and years sometimes. I spend a few hours every morning studying things. I didn't just read a quick book and I magically know all of this stuff. I studied for years and years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
Nostradamus was most likely a fraud. His prophecies were incredibly vague and could be attributed to any event in the future. Also, people have forged his prophesies and then said, "look, it came true on this date," yet Nostradamus never made that prophecy at all. I couldn't care less about Nostradamus.


Oh really? Please explain how history has been changed countless times over. And I'd especially like an explanation as to how people changed history to meet these prophecies when no one has understood these prophecies until the late 70's - early 2000's.


You actually believe this crap, don't you? LOL That's too funny. Please allow me to make your belief look like ridiculousness.

First of all, I must say, which is it? Did history change or did the Bible change? Because you first assert that history has been altered many times, then you say the Bible has been altered many times. Which is it? Both?

Next, let's get into how the Bible HAS NOT changed and how we can prove it.

1. There are over 27,000 original copies of the original manuscript scrolls. They are basically identical.

2. These scrolls come from TONS of different countries or origin, which means EVERY person that EVER copied the original scrolls would've had to have met up with everyone ELSE that copied a scroll, and changed that scroll to meet the changes in the other scrolls.

3. These scrolls are so meticulously copied that if one letter is incorrect, they will burn the entire scroll so that nothing is tainted. They count every letter of every word, and the number of words in each scroll. It's extremely maticulous. I'll give a link to an explanation for this at the bottom of this post.

4. Over the years, EVERY scroll EVERY found would have to be collected into the same place and modified in its original form on the original parchment paper in order to change the Bible without anyone knowing, yet not one of the scrolls has evidence that they were altered in any way.

5. The original Hebrew & Greek NEVER change on these scrolls, and therefore, can be accurately translated, as they have for a couple thousand years now.

6. In 1948, we found the Dead Sea Scrolls in the Middle East, hidden in caves off the shores of the Dead Sea. These scrolls were untouched for over 2000 years, and they contain only the Old Testament books of the Bible. When compared to the scrolls we have had for over two thousand years, they are exactly a like, proving that not one Old Testament scroll has been changed in over two thousand years. These Dead Sea scrolls have been dated to 300BC, approximately.

7. The New Testament scrolls are compared with scrolls we found around 900 AD, which again, were not modified one bit. We have tons of scrolls to compare with, all of which agree with each other. From time to time, you find missing scripture which most likely happened due to someone copying from a torn scroll or something to that extent, but that is rare. The other thousands of scrolls are identical, regardless of the few incomplete scrolls.

Here is a link to an explanation for this. It's not long, and it shows how it is utterly impossible to pull of a modification of the original scrolls that make up the Old and New Testament and gives 100% proof that we have the accurate, unchanged scrolls today.

http://www.ellisskolfield.com/manusc...may-2006.shtml

On top of that, we can go back to the old Strong's references to get the single meaning of each word in the Hebrew and Greek, and you can compare this to the original ancient Hebrew and ancient Greek dictionaries to see that it is correct. Then, you can go back to the 1611 King James Version (the original) and see that the words are translated almost exactly like they're supposed to be, with the exception for VERY VERY few little translated words that were simply a misunderstanding of the translators due to the passage not making sense. For instance, the fourth horseman in prophecy is riding a green horse, but they translated it to be a pale horse from the "pale green" possibility of this word. They see horses day in and day out and didn't understand how a horse could be green. So they translated it "pale" instead. They didn't realize it was symbolism, and the color was symbolic, not literal, so they made a mistake on that one. But those are few and far between. VERY very few. 99.999999999% of the words are completely translated correct and can be checked out with any ancient Hebrew or ancient Greek dictionary.

In other words, our Bible scrolls and the King James Version is pretty much 100% accurate and unchanged, without a doubt. The NASB is the next best modern translation. The rest of the Bibles lack a bit, because the translators took liberties with the translated words, and that was really stupid. However, regardless of what they changed through translation errors, it didn't change the overall message and it definitely never changed the prophecies I've stated in these posts. Therefore, you have absolutely no leg to stand on with your accusation. Every Bible scholar in the world would laugh you out of a debate if you said this. They all know they're accurate, and that's why your view on a modified Bible is not a view held by any of the major Bible scholars.


Wow, the delusion continues further.

Alright, let's assume for a moment that the church DID change the original Bible manuscripts (which, as we've seen, is impossible). How, pre-tell, did people in the 1500's change the Bible to FIT these prophecies that would not come to pass till 1776, 1948 and 1967? I ask, because we know the Bible hasn't changed since the 1611 with the introduction of the King James Version. We have other Bibles earlier than that to confirm this, and the scrolls as well. How on earth would these people change prophecies 200-400+ years before they came to pass? How would they know? They couldn't! Your theory is completely and utterly ridiculous. Seriously...you should think these things through and do some studying before you make ridiculous off-the-top-of-your-head comments like this. It just shows how you really haven't researched this stuff and that you haven't a clue what you're talking about. You're just thinking up possible explanations that make sense to you and would appear to make these prophecies look fraudulent. Sorry, but your arguments are ridiculous...


That's funny, because historians say that the Bible is one of the most accurate and best history books we have, and it has yet to be disproven. We have found countless evidences of events and time periods in the Bible with completely accuracy to the texts. In fact, we know the Bible was written in exactly the time periods and the places it says it was written because the terminology changes by the culture. Daniel was written while the Jews were in Babylon. Low and behold, there is Babylonian sayings in Daniel. So we know he was actually there when he wrote it at that time period. You really have ABSOLUTELY NOT ARGUMENT here. You've been completely disproven on your points. Get over it.


Hebrew is not dead by any means. Ask any Jew to speak it for you. The only thing that's changed is that it's old Hebrew. Most any Hebrew speaker can give you a pretty darn good translation of the Hebrew scrolls from the Old Testament.

Also, ancient Greek is WELL documented and easily translatible. What's laughable is that you actually think you know something about this stuff when it's blatantly obvious that you don't.
I bet you knock on peoples doors at 7 in the morning handing out pamphlets in a suit and tie while riding a bike with your black helmet, too.............

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post #40 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-31-2007, 08:06 AM
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Explain this one, Atheists
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=345170


Is heaven a nudy party? (not a joke)
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=345456


Biblical & Historical Prophecy Fulfillments (How do Atheists explain this?)
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=342311


Existence of the Spiritual World
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=345254


Weird Question about Sheep & Evolution
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=344926


Challenge for Atheists
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=340861


Can You Lose Your Salvation? (Debate)
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=341637



Free Will & Predestination: Answer this Question
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=342050


The Flood
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=285423
















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post #41 of 103 (permalink) Old 12-31-2007, 12:50 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scootro
I bet you knock on peoples doors at 7 in the morning handing out pamphlets in a suit and tie while riding a bike with your black helmet, too.............
I haven't once gone to anyone's house to talk about God with them, nor have I ever handed out a pamphlet. Those are Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons. I do enjoy talking to them when they come to my door, though, because they don't have answers to my questions, and it's easy to show the flaws in their doctrines.

Don't know what you thought you were accomplishing with your posts...

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post #42 of 103 (permalink) Old 01-01-2008, 10:10 PM
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Come on man...who are you to take a stab at someone else's religion? Debating with you (or any other zealot) is pointless. No matter what someone says OR proves to you, you will have a rebuttal. People like you give me a bad taste for religion as a whole. You get on here and start NUMEROUS threads trying to convince people that the only right way is your way (or God's way you will say). I have met many Christians who would listen to my points and truly respect what I have to say and then politley disagree...not you pal...you have to make sure that you have the last word and that everyone sees the point your way. All I am saying is relax a bit and truly listen to what other people have to say....

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post #43 of 103 (permalink) Old 01-01-2008, 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scootro
Explain this one, Atheists
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=345170


Is heaven a nudy party? (not a joke)
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=345456


Biblical & Historical Prophecy Fulfillments (How do Atheists explain this?)
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=342311


Existence of the Spiritual World
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=345254


Weird Question about Sheep & Evolution
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=344926


Challenge for Atheists
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=340861


Can You Lose Your Salvation? (Debate)
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=341637



Free Will & Predestination: Answer this Question
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=342050


The Flood
https://www.dfwstangs.net/forums/showthread.php?t=285423

















Yeah, isnt it funny that he would discuss all this stuff in a THEOLOGY FORUM


Maybe you were looking for the back porch....

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post #44 of 103 (permalink) Old 01-02-2008, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
Oh, now we've reached a paramount time on this board where an atheist is trying to tell me how to interpret the Bible. This is classic...
Ignorance is bliss, I hear.

Quote:
He is PROPHESYING to the Hebrews about what's going to happen to them. He says:

Num 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye
searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year.

So, yes, He says "each DAY FOR A YEAR" in His prophecy.


Yes, let's!


Are you blind, man? I mean, really... It says, plain as day, in this PROPHECY to the Hebrews:

"I have assigned it to you for forty days, a day for each year." (NASB)
One problem... in Numbers, the punishment is a year for each day of sin. In Ezekiel, the punishment is a day for each year of sin.

So even given that God might SOMETIMES prophecise cryptically like this, he is inconsistent in his format.

You also have the obvious problem that in these two situations God explicitly states his intent (day for each year, or year for each day)... yet in Daniel there is no indication of his intent.

And you conveniently discount the interpretation of the length of a "time". It's 1000 years when it's complimentary to your theory, but "just a saying they had back then" when it's contrary.

Quote:
Nostradamus was most likely a fraud. His prophecies were incredibly vague and could be attributed to any event in the future.
All prophecy can be attributed such. All prophecy is speaking in metaphors and cryptic generalizations. All prophecy is vague enough that it can be applied to any number of future events. Nostradamus certainly doesn't hold the monopoly on this matter.

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post #45 of 103 (permalink) Old 01-03-2008, 06:59 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quick '91 GT
Come on man...who are you to take a stab at someone else's religion? Debating with you (or any other zealot) is pointless. No matter what someone says OR proves to you, you will have a rebuttal. People like you give me a bad taste for religion as a whole. You get on here and start NUMEROUS threads trying to convince people that the only right way is your way (or God's way you will say). I have met many Christians who would listen to my points and truly respect what I have to say and then politley disagree...not you pal...you have to make sure that you have the last word and that everyone sees the point your way. All I am saying is relax a bit and truly listen to what other people have to say....
I listen to people on here and I point out the flaws in what they say. I said it before, and I'll say it again. I love being proven wrong so I can fix what I know and learn the truth. I hate teaching something that's incorrect. So, I always listen to what other people have to say. If someone cannot completely disprove what I believe, or if I can 100% prove what I'm saying, then there's no reason to go further than that. Like the prophecies. No one can disprove them. It's impossible.

I respect people's beliefs. That's their business and their right to believe whatever they want. My job is to lay out the truth and they are welcome to take it or leave it. Doesn't matter to me. However, people on here like to persistently tell me I'm an idiot, but cannot substatiate that claim nor disprove what I'm saying. They just sling mud. So, I join in a bit and debate and discuss. Nothing wrong with that. You're just upset that I actually have some things that are legitimate and proveable that go against what you believe. You don't like the fact that these prophecies prove that there must be a God. Not my problem...that's your problem. Don't get mad at me for that.

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post #46 of 103 (permalink) Old 01-03-2008, 07:46 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkWolf
One problem... in Numbers, the punishment is a year for each day of sin. In Ezekiel, the punishment is a day for each year of sin.

So even given that God might SOMETIMES prophecise cryptically like this, he is inconsistent in his format.
What?? No, in each prophecy it says "a day for a year." It's not backwards like you say. If it is, post it up and let's see.

Quote:
You also have the obvious problem that in these two situations God explicitly states his intent (day for each year, or year for each day)... yet in Daniel there is no indication of his intent.
In Daniel, we can do the math on the day = a year and it comes out perfectly to the year Jesus died and the year the Old Testament was finished. So, we can prove that a day equals a year in Daniel's 70 weeks. Then, we can also prove it again, multiple times, with the other prophecies I've given you. We know for a fact that all of the prophecies are day = a year prophecies. They came out perfectly. It's pretty obvious. God is always consistent.

Quote:
And you conveniently discount the interpretation of the length of a "time". It's 1000 years when it's complimentary to your theory, but "just a saying they had back then" when it's contrary.
That's ridiculous. It is obvious when "time" is being used in a saying and when "time" is being used in a prophecy. Blatantly obvious if you know Hebrew writing styles. I twisted nothing and did nothing out of context with these prophecies. You just WANT the verse in Daniel to mean seven "times" so you can disprove me, but everyone full well knows that "seven times" is a common statement in the Bible. I showed you TONS of verses where it is used. It means complete or full, basically, because seven is the number of completion. That's why the say, "Make the fire seven times as hot" in Daniel. They want it as hot as possible, completely hot, fully "turned up," if you will. You can prove this everytime this "seven times" is used in the Bible. But it's very different when used in the prophecies. It never ever says "seven times." It defines time as something completely separate from "seven times." Ask any credible Bible scholar or a Jew that speaks Hebrew and they'll tell you the same thing. It cannot mean what you want it to just so you can have an argument. There are rules, and you're trying to go against them because you're grasping at anything that will help you look as if you actually have a credible argument against this.

Regardless, though, ALL of the prophecies I listed have come true exactly as stated and cannot be refuted. Period. There is no explanation for it except that there is a God. You simply choose not to believe in a God, so you cannot give into the obvious fact that these prophecies DID come to pass and God prophesied they would over a couple thousand years ago.

Quote:
All prophecy can be attributed such. All prophecy is speaking in metaphors and cryptic generalizations. All prophecy is vague enough that it can be applied to any number of future events. Nostradamus certainly doesn't hold the monopoly on this matter.
Ok, let's put an end to this ridiculous argument once and for all. You are never allowed to use this argument ever again. Why? Because as I showed you, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING VAGUE about ANY of these prophecies.

We have a starting event with historical date that is not left up to interpretation. We have a length of time that is also stated exactly and not left up to interpretation. We also have ending events or descriptions of what exactly will happen in these times periods or what will happen at the beginning or end of them. There is absolutely nothing vague about these prophecies. They couldn't get much more specific.

God said in Daniel 12 that FROM the time the daily sacrifice is taken away (583BC) to the time the Abomination of Desolation is set up (688AD), there will be 1290 days (1271.553 solar years). The Abomination of Desolation is said to be set up on the temple mount 1271.553 years after the daily sacrifice is stopped. It happened EXACTLY like that: -583BC + 1271.553 = 688.553 (688AD).

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING vague about that. It's EXTREMELY specific. All of these prophecies are very specific like this without one ounce of vaguity to them. Therefore, you are never allowed to use th is argument again in regard to these prophecies, because it's a flat out lie and you know it full well.

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post #47 of 103 (permalink) Old 01-03-2008, 08:39 AM
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One verse to kind of show you about the Hebrew sayings and their meanings is


<< Matthew 18:22 >>
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

In this statement Jesus was taking that well known saying to the limit, by inferring that forgiveness should be infinite, like Brian is saying. "seven times seven" is "the maximum". Jesus went one step further saying "seventy times seven", meaning we should never get to the point where we don't forgive one another. Anyone knowing this particular saying would know exactly what He meant when he said this.

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post #48 of 103 (permalink) Old 01-03-2008, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
What?? No, in each prophecy it says "a day for a year." It's not backwards like you say. If it is, post it up and let's see.
My GOD man! I already did, you even quoted the post in a response.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Numbers 14
32But as for you, your carcases, they shall fall in this wilderness. 33And your children shall wander in the wilderness forty years, and bear your whoredoms, until your carcases be wasted in the wilderness.

34After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

35I the LORD have said, I will surely do it unto all this evil congregation, that are gathered together against me: in this wilderness they shall be consumed, and there they shall die.
Here, the punishment is a year for each day of sin. Forty years for 40 days of sinning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ezekiel 4
4Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity. 5For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.

6And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
Here, the punishment is a day for each year of sin. 390 days, plus 40 days, for 390 years, plus 40 years.

Quote:
In Daniel, we can do the math on the day = a year and it comes out perfectly to the year Jesus died and the year the Old Testament was finished. So, we can prove that a day equals a year in Daniel's 70 weeks. Then, we can also prove it again, multiple times, with the other prophecies I've given you. We know for a fact that all of the prophecies are day = a year prophecies. They came out perfectly. It's pretty obvious. God is always consistent.
Or it's also pretty obvious they're vague enough to be applicable to anything.

Quote:
That's ridiculous. It is obvious when "time" is being used in a saying and when "time" is being used in a prophecy.
"And seven times shall pass over thee"

You're quite right. It is obvious it's intended to be a passage of time.

Quote:
Regardless, though, ALL of the prophecies I listed have come true exactly as stated and cannot be refuted. Period. There is no explanation for it except that there is a God. You simply choose not to believe in a God, so you cannot give into the obvious fact that these prophecies DID come to pass and God prophesied they would over a couple thousand years ago.
Will the ignorance never cease?

Quote:
Ok, let's put an end to this ridiculous argument once and for all. You are never allowed to use this argument ever again. Why? Because as I showed you, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING VAGUE about ANY of these prophecies.
No, you showed YOUR INTERPRETATION. There's nothing concrete about it. There are other interpretations, some even within the bible. Let's focus on the abomination of desolation, shall we?

Quote:
God said in Daniel 12 that FROM the time the daily sacrifice is taken away (583BC) to the time the Abomination of Desolation is set up (688AD), there will be 1290 days (1271.553 solar years). The Abomination of Desolation is said to be set up on the temple mount 1271.553 years after the daily sacrifice is stopped. It happened EXACTLY like that: -583BC + 1271.553 = 688.553 (688AD).
One interpretation has it at 167BC when Antiochus Epiphanies set up an altar to Zeus over the altar of burnt offerings in the Jewish temple in Jerusalem.

Another has it at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD by the Roman army.

You have it at 688AD when the dome on the rock was set up by the Muslims.

Should I make a pie chart?

Quote:
There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING vague about that. It's EXTREMELY specific. All of these prophecies are very specific like this without one ounce of vaguity to them. Therefore, you are never allowed to use th is argument again in regard to these prophecies, because it's a flat out lie and you know it full well.
Oh please. You're just miffed because you're undeniable proof ... isn't. That's the problem with prophecy... there's any number of ways to interpret it so that it "works" for whatever you want it to work for.

Though I must say, your arrogance is astounding. What a good little christian you are!

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Last edited by DarkWolf; 01-03-2008 at 03:18 PM.
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post #49 of 103 (permalink) Old 01-03-2008, 04:04 PM
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BrianC has it all figured out, he read a book so he is right and everyone else is wrong.
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post #50 of 103 (permalink) Old 01-03-2008, 04:14 PM
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Interesting reading on the subject of translating the Bible:

http://www.mb-soft.com/believe/txh/version7.htm
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