Indulgences? - DFWstangs Forums
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-06-2007, 05:14 PM Thread Starter
Pilgrim
 
Phillystang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,086
Indulgences?

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/sto...ns/0706938.htm

I was unaware that these practices were still going on in the Catholic Church
Quote:
Pope OKs plenary indulgence for Lourdes' 150th anniversary

By Carol Glatz
Catholic News Service

"VATICAN CITY (CNS) -- To mark the 150th anniversary of Mary's appearance to St. Bernadette Soubirous near Lourdes, France, Pope Benedict XVI authorized a special indulgence to encourage renewed holiness.


Catholics can receive a plenary indulgence for taking part in any public or private devotion to Our Lady of Lourdes, said U.S. Cardinal J. Francis Stafford, head of the Apostolic Penitentiary, a Vatican court dealing with indulgences and matters of conscience."

.................................................. .................................................. ...........................

"The Vatican published the cardinal's statement announcing the indulgence and outlining the requirements for receiving it Dec. 5.

An indulgence is a remission of the temporal punishment due for sins committed. A plenary indulgence is the remission of all punishment."
Phillystang is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-08-2007, 10:22 AM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bandera County
Posts: 918
As has been stated many times in the past, Catholic Doctrine does not change, but it can be defined.

Indulgences cannot be sold as was being done in parts of Germany, but interestingly enough not in Spain, in the early 16th Century.

03 Mach1
[email protected] N/A
Brain_Mach1 is offline  
post #3 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-08-2007, 07:09 PM
Lifer
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,249
What does this have to do with G#d, the Bible, or one's personal salvation?
Maybe I should say 3000 hail mary's and ask for a private meeting with the Pope, who is closest of any human to the great almighty (I hear he can channel G#d)..
FSON is offline  
 
post #4 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-08-2007, 07:31 PM Thread Starter
Pilgrim
 
Phillystang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by FSON
What does this have to do with G#d, the Bible, or one's personal salvation?
Maybe I should say 3000 hail mary's and ask for a private meeting with the Pope, who is closest of any human to the great almighty (I hear he can channel G#d)..
It has nothing to do with it, it is man made scheme to have people do acts to somehow merit less time for them in the made up place called Purgatory. Apparently Christ's atonement is insufficient to cover all of a person's sins when they repent and put their trust in the Savior.
Phillystang is offline  
post #5 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-09-2007, 02:50 PM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bandera County
Posts: 918
I find it interesting that you start this thread with “I was unaware…”, then go into “it is man made scheme…” I tend to believe your first statement over your second.

As for Purgatory, the Catechism says this:

All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven" (CCC 1030).

Where does this come from? Look at 1 Corinthians 3:14–15: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." The Latinate word purgatory means a purgation or burning by fire. Purgation is just as biblical as the Trinity, the concept exists but not the exact word.

It is not a third place which is separate from Heaven or Hell. It is a cleansing place for those who are saved and are heaven bound but not there yet. Why does this place exist? A person at death who still has personal faults is prevented from entering into heaven because he is not completely purified. He must go through a period of purgation in order to be made clean, for nothing unclean will enter heaven (cf. Rev. 21:27).

Disagree if you like, but don't jump to conclusions based on what other people told you about the Catholic Faith. I would wager a few bucks that I have been to more synagogues and non-Catholic churches than you yet you are very quick to inform the internet about your "gnosis" of Catholisism.

Would you like to referense any Catholic document which created Purgatory?

03 Mach1
[email protected] N/A
Brain_Mach1 is offline  
post #6 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 01:50 AM Thread Starter
Pilgrim
 
Phillystang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
I find it interesting that you start this thread with “I was unaware…”, then go into “it is man made scheme…” I tend to believe your first statement over your second.
Being unaware that a practice was still going on has no bearing on an unawareness that a practice is biblical or not.
Phillystang is offline  
post #7 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 01:52 AM Thread Starter
Pilgrim
 
Phillystang's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1

Disagree if you like, but don't jump to conclusions based on what other people told you about the Catholic Faith. I would wager a few bucks that I have been to more synagogues and non-Catholic churches than you yet you are very quick to inform the internet about your "gnosis" of Catholisism.
Is it fair to jump to conclusions based on your answers?
Phillystang is offline  
post #8 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-10-2007, 05:55 AM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven" (CCC 1030).

Where does this come from? Look at 1 Corinthians 3:14–15: "If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." The Latinate word purgatory means a purgation or burning by fire. Purgation is just as biblical as the Trinity, the concept exists but not the exact word.

It is not a third place which is separate from Heaven or Hell. It is a cleansing place for those who are saved and are heaven bound but not there yet. Why does this place exist? A person at death who still has personal faults is prevented from entering into heaven because he is not completely purified. He must go through a period of purgation in order to be made clean, for nothing unclean will enter heaven (cf. Rev. 21:27).
Alright, 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 is speaking of the refiners fire. We are told that when we die, all of our good and bad deeds will be tested by fire. The purely selfless deeds will not burn up and the unpure will. All that will be left is your reward. That's it. The loss you suffer is in deeds. You will loose all of the deeds you did that were not purely to help others.

You say, "on your way to heaven," right? Well, let's see... When I was born again, here's what happened to me:

Colossians 1:13
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son...

My spirit man is in heaven RIGHT NOW. No purification needed, because the spirit man is holy, meaning he cannot sin and therefore, does not need to be purified.

John 3:18 (Jesus Speaking)
He who believes in Him is not judged...

Well, look at that. I'm not going to be judged at all. Purgatory would require judgement in order to refine me by fire. No purgatory for a believer...assuming Purgatory were real.

1 Corinthians 6:2,3
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? Do you not know that we will judge angels?

Check that out... the saints will judge the world (and angels [demons]). So, how will you judge the world if you're in Purgatory? Hmmmmm...

Revelation 11:18
"And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth."

Wow, imagine that... another verse that says we won't be judged but will be rewarded iinstead. Purgatory just isn't looking too visible biblically...

Philippians 3:20
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

Ephesians 2:6
and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

My spirit man is in heaven RIGHT now. We're told that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven, so my fleshly body must be turned into a resurrection body which is perfect and sin-free before it can enter heaven with my spirit body.

Galatians 4:29
But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also.

John 3:6
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

My spirit is born of God's holy nature by the Holy Spirit, and cannot be corrupted by sin (that's what holy means...that it's impossible to sin).

1 Corinthians 15:42
So also is the resurrection of the dead It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;

1 Corinthians 15:50
Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

1 Corinthians 15:52,53
in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, " DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

1 Peter 1:23
for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

John 11:26
and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die.

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life

John 3:15
so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Romans 5:13
for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

Want me to keep going? We ARE NOT JUDGED. We have escaped judgement, as you saw from the verses. The WORLD is judged, but we are rewarded. We are changed in the twinkling of an eye, in an instant; no time for purgatory, because that new body you get is said to be imperishable (without sin). We are going to judge the world on the last day and the demons (fallen angels). No time for that while in purgatory. We cannot lose our salvation either since our spirit man is perfect, so there's nothing to judge.

Sorry, but the doctrine of purgatory coming from one verse taken way out of context is completely disproven by the rest of the New Testament. I bet I can even find Old Testament verses that speak of escaping judgement...I know I can, because I can remember some that speak of not holding sins against the people who love and obey God.

I'd seriously rethink the whole purgatory and salvation thing... Jesus said we have eternal life present tense, and that if we believe in Him even though we die (in the flesh), we will not die (in the spirit). So, once again, losing salvation is impossible once you believe in Him, or it makes Him a liar. If we've escaped judgement, what's there to judge to condemn us? We're told there's no condemnation in Christ. So how does one get condemned once saved?? We're told that nothing can snatch us from the Father's hand or from Jesus' hand. We are told by Paul that NOTHING can separate us from the Love of God that is in Jesus Christ (in those whom He saves, obviously). No, you cannot lose your salvation, and you are not judged, and you do not go to this imaginary place called Purgatory created from one verse that's taken out of context.

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO
BrianC is offline  
post #9 of 9 (permalink) Old 12-11-2007, 04:06 PM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Bandera County
Posts: 918
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
Alright, 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 is speaking of the refiners fire. We are told that when we die, all of our good and bad deeds will be tested by fire. The purely selfless deeds will not burn up and the unpure will. All that will be left is your reward. That's it. The loss you suffer is in deeds. You will loose all of the deeds you did that were not purely to help others.

You say, "on your way to heaven," right? Well, let's see... When I was born again, here's what happened to me:

Colossians 1:13
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son...

My spirit man is in heaven RIGHT NOW. No purification needed, because the spirit man is holy, meaning he cannot sin and therefore, does not need to be purified.
Never heard anything like that before! What is the deal with your body on earth and what is occupying it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
John 3:18 (Jesus Speaking)
He who believes in Him is not judged...

Well, look at that. I'm not going to be judged at all. Purgatory would require judgement in order to refine me by fire. No purgatory for a believer...assuming Purgatory were real.
Bible translations are interesting. NAB has John 3:18 as: Whoever believes in him will not be condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Being judged does not mean being condemned. I sell pies that get judged at competitions. They can win 1st, 2nd, 3rd. They can loose and people can say they taste like crap. Is there a judgment that does not lead to condemnation?

Which translation are you using and what does it say about the following:

Romans 14 Why then do you judge your brother? Or you, why do you look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God; for it is written: "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bend before me, and every tongue shall give praise to God." So (then) each of us shall give an account of himself (to God).

2Corinthians 5 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil.

Romans 2:5-10: By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good works, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness. Yes, affliction and distress will come upon every human being who does evil, Jew first and then Greek. But there will be glory, honor, and peace for everyone who does good, Jew first and then Greek.

What does you translation say about the above judgements? I am not being sarcastic, I am curious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
1 Corinthians 6:2,3
Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? Do you not know that we will judge angels?

Check that out... the saints will judge the world (and angels [demons]). So, how will you judge the world if you're in Purgatory? Hmmmmm...
There is not doctrine about the length of purgatory, whether it is a place, or how long the final judgement will take.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
Revelation 11:18
"And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy
those who destroy the earth."

Wow, imagine that... another verse that says we won't be judged but will be rewarded iinstead. Purgatory just isn't looking too visible biblically...
The time to reward your bond-servants the prophets and the saints.... Funny, after judgement, my pies get a blue ribbon. Judgement does not mean condemantion. Rewards can come from a judgement. In a civil lawsuit the winner might get a reward. A prize to a champion....
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
1 Corinthians 15:42
So also is the resurrection of the dead It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
So when Jesus rose from the dead, was he in the body which died on the cross? Did it have holes i nthe hands, feet and sides or was it a different body. It was transformed and imperisable, but the same body.

I agree that we will be imperishable after resurrection which has nothing to do with judgement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
Or Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes in the one who sent me has eternal life and will not come to condemnation, but has passed from death to life.

Sorry, but I see judgement and mistranslations.

03 Mach1
[email protected] N/A
Brain_Mach1 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the DFWstangs Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome