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post #1 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 11:37 AM Thread Starter
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Biblical & Historical Prophecy Fulfillments (How do Atheists explain this?)

Atheists, I'd like to know how you explain these impossibilities historically.

Daniel (written more than 500 years before Christ) said that in 476 years the following things would happen:

A decree would go forth to rebuild Jerusalem, and then 69 weeks of years later (each day equals a year), the Messiah would be killed to make reconciliation for sin. (there are actually 6 prophecies in that 69 weeks, but I'm not getting into all of them that were fulfilled)

69 weeks X 7 days = 483 days (each day = a year, so 483 years)

Hebrew & Babylonian years were 360 days long, so they added an extra month in every few years due to the loss of 5.24 days each year. Let's convert 483 Hebrew years to solar years.

483 x .9857 = 476 solar years.

When did the decree go out to restore Jerusalem? A special decree was granted by Artaxerxes I to Nehemiah in 444BC.

-444BC + 476 years = 32AD (the year Christ was crucified)

There is always a 1-3 year ambiguity with BC dates according to all historians, so this 32AD date could vary slightly.

That's just the start, though. There are 12 other numerical prophecies that all have happened exactly as they were supposed to. And they span over 2700 years and involve many different nations. How does on orchestrate this? Here's another prophecy:

Daniel 12:11
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be 1290 days.

So, we see here that there will be 1290 Hebrew years (day = year) from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away to the time of the abomination of desolation is setup. The abomination of desolation is spoken of in scripture as something that will be setup on the temple mount of God and claim to be above the one true God. Many think it's the antichrist, but I can prove differently.

So, when was the daily sacrifice taken away in Daniel's time? In 583BC when the Jews were led captive into Babylon. No temple mount, no priests, no daily sacrifices.

1290 x .9857 = 1271.533 solar years
-583BC + 1271.533 = 688.533AD

688AD is the year the Muslims started construction of the Dome of the Rock on the temple mount of God. They put it in the court of the Gentiles, thinking it's where the Jewish temple used to be. In it, there are plaques from the Koran that say, "God does not have a son." That's pretty anti-Christ, wouldn't you say? And it is a memorial for Muhommad (the false prophet) and his god Allah, whom, in the plaques inside the Dome of the Rock, is said to be the Most High God. Well, that's what 2 Thess 2:1-4 says will happen concerning the "man of sin." Most think this is the antichrist, but it's not, it's the false prophet. So, we have the "abomination of desolation" setup on the temple mount. Jesus warnded Christians to get the heck out of Dodge when they see this happen in Matthew 24. Sure enough, Christians got out of Israel at that point, but the Jews didn't, because they had no prophecy about getting out. Something like a million Jews were slaughtered by the Muslims, and the rest scattered into the nations.

Here's one last prophecy that goes with this one. It was given to Christians in Revelation.

Revelation 11:1,2
1And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot 42 months.

That outter court is called the court of the Gentiles, and it's where the Dome of the Rock is built and stands today. 42 months is how long it's "given unto the Gentiles (Muslims)." This prophecy was given to John under a solar calendar, so no conversion is needed.

365.24 divided by 12 = 30.44 days in a month
42 months x 30.44 days = 1278.48 days (day = year, so these are solar years)

688.533AD + 1278.48 yrs = 1967AD

1967 was the year that the Jews took back Jerusalem and the temple mount from the Muslims in the Six Day war. Gee, what a coincidence. Prophecied about in 90-95AD, and happens exactly to the year. There are 13 total numerical prophecies, all of which come out right on the dates they should, like 1948 (the year Israel became a nation again), 1967 (Israel gets temple mount back) and 688 (Dome of the Rock built). How do you explain such prophetic accuracy in history? It's statistically impossible for these things to randomly occur by chance (kind of like evolution - ).

Any atheists want to take a stab at this?

- Brian
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Last edited by BrianC; 11-09-2007 at 12:05 PM.
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post #2 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 12:04 PM Thread Starter
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Let me give a few more prophecies. I'm not going to go into how you can prove that "time, times and half a time" means 2500 years, but I'll explain the prophecies and their fulfillments.

Dan 7:1
1 In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed

Historically, this year is 552BC. Look it up.

In Daniel 7, We're told about a bunch of secular nations that will rise up against Israel and rule them or their land for "time, times and half a time" (2500 years).

Dan 7:25
25And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (2500 solar years).

Daniel didn't understand that "time" meant 1,000 years. Later, in the New Testament, Peter explains it. But again, I'm not discussing that now.

Let's add 2500 years to 552BC

-552BC + 2500 years = 1948AD

In 1948AD, Israel finally became a nation again and was not ruled by any Gentile powers like Rome or Persia. Notice how it says "he will seek to change times and laws?" He, being secular nations, did in fact change times and laws. The calendar was changed under the Roman empire, and when Jesus died, we had the beginning of the AD era. Prophecy was 100% fulfilled


Here's another:

Dan 12:7
7 ...and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

In this verse, "he" is the gentile nations again, the "spirit of antichrist." When he has accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people (the Jews), all these things (all of Daniel's prophecies) are finished. The scattering of the Jews was finished when the Jews were no longer scattered and regained their land back. This prophecy was given:

Dan 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing
was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called
Belteshazzar.

3rd year of Cyrus was 533BC. Look it up.

-533BC + 2500 years = 1967AD (the year the Jews regained Jerusalem and their temple mount back in the six day war)


One last 2500yr prophecy:

Revelation 12:14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

I won't go into all the details about the prophecies about Ephraim, but this prophecy is given to the Christians, who are most likely Ephraim. Ephraim (also called Israel) is the 10 tribes of Israel that split from Judah (which includes the tribes Benjamin & Judah).

After the split, Ephraim was lead away captive by Assyria in 724AD and dispersed into the nations, never to be heard from again. Yet, prophecies about Ephraim say that he will be planted in a plesant place, guarded by the waters, and will tremple from the West. You go west from Israel and the U.S. is the only place you can go. It's protected by waters and you go first and you're in the far East again.

This prophecy is about us, and was given to Christians in the book of Revelation. Check this out:

-724AD + 2500 years = 1776AD, the year the United States became a nation by declaring their independence from England on the fourth of July.

How weird is that??

Here are some similarities. The original 12 tribes became 13 tribes when the tribe of Joseph split in two. Joseph's sons, Ephraim and Menasseh were told that the younger son would be a greater people/nation than the older son, and thus, received the blessing. The first born always receives the blessing, so Menasseh was upset and the tribes split. Ephraim became the most powerful tribe and protected all of the other tribes. So, 12 tribes became 13 tribes.

We had 12 original colonies until the Carolinas were deemed too big, and split into North and South Carolina. Those became our original 13 colonies/states. Our flag's stripes symbolize this.

Now, the tribe of Levi was the tribe of priests. They were the only tribe that could give sacrifices at the temple mount, and only the high priest could approach the Holy of Holies (where God himself, the Holy Spirit, resided). God commanded that the Levites be given 48 cities among the tribes.

The United States had 48 states up until 1959 when they added Hawaii and Alaska. Here's what the flag looked like before Alaska & Hawaii:

http://www.usflags.com/productDetail.asp?ItemID=1050

Notice the 13 stripes for the colonies, and that there are only 48 stars. The two similarities we have with Israel's past just HAPPEN to be on our flag from 1912-1959. Coincidence?

These prophecies are a statistical impossibility, unless there is an almighty God in control.

- Brian
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post #3 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 12:33 PM
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Atheists, I'd like to know how you explain these impossibilities historically.

Daniel (written more than 500 years before Christ) said that in 476 years the following things would happen:



Any atheists want to take a stab at this?
Who did Daniel tell this to? Is there a copy of it somewhere? Maybe some transcripts, a screenplay or a Podcast or something?
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post #4 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 01:11 PM
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Brian I am afraid that all you are going to get is snide comments. That usually happens when they get backed into a corner.

Btw, where has Casper been? At least he would give reasons for his thinking instead of falling into sarcasm.

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Brian I am afraid that all you are going to get is snide comments. That usually happens when they get backed into a corner.

Btw, where has Casper been? At least he would give reasons for his thinking instead of falling into sarcasm.
My first question is quite valid.
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post #6 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 01:37 PM
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My first question is quite valid.

..which doesn't make sense. It is obviously old testament writing. LONG before the majority prophecies took place. There is really no way to deny that Daniel was written pre-1967

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post #7 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 01:48 PM
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..which doesn't make sense. It is obviously old testament writing. LONG before the majority prophecies took place. There is really no way to deny that Daniel was written pre-1967
Probably true.

There is also no way to prove that it actually happened, or is there? That's what I was asking.
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post #8 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 03:32 PM Thread Starter
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Probably true.

There is also no way to prove that it actually happened, or is there? That's what I was asking.
I'm confused. What do you want proof of?

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post #9 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 03:56 PM
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I'm confused. What do you want proof of?
How do we know what Daniel said?
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post #10 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 04:09 PM Thread Starter
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How do we know what Daniel said?
Well, it's written in the book of Daniel in the Old Testamet of the Bible. Everything mentioned there is dated back to the correct time period, and there's even archaeological evidence with some of the names of the kingdoms and leaders at Daniel's time, like Belshazzar.

Is that what you mean?

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post #11 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 04:30 PM
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Well, it's written in the book of Daniel in the Old Testamet of the Bible. Everything mentioned there is dated back to the correct time period, and there's even archaeological evidence with some of the names of the kingdoms and leaders at Daniel's time, like Belshazzar.

Is that what you mean?

I guess so.
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post #12 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 04:35 PM Thread Starter
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I guess so.
So, we know that the prophet Daniel in the book of Daniel wrote these things down around 600-500BC. And now, we see how they've all come true just exactly as predicted. How do you explain that away without saying that there must be an allknowing God that foresaw the future and prophesied about it? Have another explanation? How can anyone predict the exactly movements of entire nations upon the Jews up to 2500 years in advance and get it right exactly to the year everytime?

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post #13 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 05:50 PM
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We're having some good discussion in this forum here lately, let's keep it going...
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post #14 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 06:28 PM
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So, we know that the prophet Daniel in the book of Daniel wrote these things down around 600-500BC. And now, we see how they've all come true just exactly as predicted. How do you explain that away without saying that there must be an allknowing God that foresaw the future and prophesied about it? Have another explanation? How can anyone predict the exactly movements of entire nations upon the Jews up to 2500 years in advance and get it right exactly to the year everytime?

Have you seen the writings?
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post #15 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 06:32 PM
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If A = B, and B = C, then C = A.

Is that god's will?

I believe in the real world. I think about stuff that matters to me, now, in this life. I don't waste my time on prophecies or who created who. Those topics might be entertaining but that's all it is to me. Entertainment.

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post #16 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-10-2007, 08:10 AM Thread Starter
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Have you seen the writings?
All I've seen are things like the Dead Sea Scrolls and the 27,000 copies of the original manuscripts.

You have to understand the maticulous nature of how the Jews and early Christians copied scrolls (original manuscripts of the Bible). They would copy them line by line, letter for letter. After words, they would have another person go over them and compare each word and letter per a particular spacing.

So, they would start with the first letter of the scroll, then count 20 letters, and see if the word and letter were the same on the original scroll as they were on the copied scroll. If there was even a one letter mistake, it would cause the letters to be off by the time they finished reading the scroll. If this happened, they burned the scroll in order to make sure no corrupt scrolls survived.

That's why nearly every one of the 27,000 copies of the original manuscript scrolls are almost dead on accurate with one another, except for some minor details, equivalent to a T not crossed or an I not dotted.

So yeah, I've seen dead on, exact copies of the originals. And ALL of the copies look exactly the same as one another, yet different people copied each one. How do you orchestrate that many different copies agreeing with one another, but copied by completely different people in different parts of the land at different times? Some big conspiracy? I don't see that as a possibility. Too complex. That's impossible if you ask me. The copying of the scrolls happened over hundreds and hundreds of years. It takes more faith to believe that these people conspired to do this than it does to say that they used a maticulous copying method.

Kind of like evolution and creation. Takes more faith to believe a little ball of dirt/mass exploded and created everything than it does to believe an all powerful God designed and created everything. But the world chooses to see it the other way, and chooses not to even acknowledge what created the big bang, because that would go beyond the physical realm, and well...we can't test that. Yet, we can't test the big bang theory either, and therefore that should be thrown out, but it's not. That's off-topic, though...

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post #17 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-10-2007, 08:13 AM Thread Starter
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If A = B, and B = C, then C = A.

Is that god's will?

I believe in the real world. I think about stuff that matters to me, now, in this life. I don't waste my time on prophecies or who created who. Those topics might be entertaining but that's all it is to me. Entertainment.
For you to believe in the "real world," I find it funny that you don't believe in history. That sounds pretty ironic to me. You've just said, more or less, that all history is not the real world, but only what you see, hear, feel, taste and touch right now is the real world. The past is a waste of time and not the real world. When you were born, was that the real world? When you turned 5 yrs old, was that the real world? The past and history is quite real and took place in the real world. Just because it's the past doesn't mean it's not real... Your logic is a bit lacking there.

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post #18 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-10-2007, 08:40 AM
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For you to believe in the "real world," I find it funny that you don't believe in history. That sounds pretty ironic to me. You've just said, more or less, that all history is not the real world, but only what you see, hear, feel, taste and touch right now is the real world. The past is a waste of time and not the real world. When you were born, was that the real world? When you turned 5 yrs old, was that the real world? The past and history is quite real and took place in the real world. Just because it's the past doesn't mean it's not real... Your logic is a bit lacking there.
You're saying that. I never said history isn't important. I just don't put much weight into some book that said someone said that something is going to happen. I can write a book now, today, that says someone will sign up on DFWstangs by the name of "propellerhead". Guess what? What that book said came true!!! Whoopee shit. Maybe it was god's will, huh?

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post #19 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-10-2007, 04:15 PM
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You're saying that. I never said history isn't important. I just don't put much weight into some book that said someone said that something is going to happen. I can write a book now, today, that says someone will sign up on DFWstangs by the name of "propellerhead". Guess what? What that book said came true!!! Whoopee shit. Maybe it was god's will, huh?

So what is your take on all of the prophecies coming true to the day even.... they weren't written after theevents (i.e. after 1967), so that's not it. So what can we attribute their accuracy to?

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post #20 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-10-2007, 04:28 PM
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I don't care much about them. Like I said earlier, they're good for entertainment factor but I don't worry about it or put much into it. Like believing in an ultimate creator or supreme being, it's pointless. It doesn't do jack for me. Me not having a religion is like a fish not having a bicycle. Having a scientific explanation or believing in a single cause to these prophecies are things I don't need to live my life.

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post #21 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-12-2007, 10:57 AM
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I don't care much about them. Like I said earlier, they're good for entertainment factor but I don't worry about it or put much into it. Like believing in an ultimate creator or supreme being, it's pointless. It doesn't do jack for me. Me not having a religion is like a fish not having a bicycle. Having a scientific explanation or believing in a single cause to these prophecies are things I don't need to live my life.
So by definition are you agnostic? Just wondering....

It seems, even if by sheer "wow" factor, much like watching a magician on TV, that prophecies that have come to pass would be interesting to people.

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post #22 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-12-2007, 11:32 AM
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It's easy for religious folks, they don't have to prove ANYTHING. It's all based on emotion (otherwide known as faith). All they need is a several thousand year old text, written by men (not god), and the faith that it's all real.

Science, on the other hand demands repeatable, verifiable proof. Yes there are scientific theories, but they remain theories until the scientific method proves or disproves them. Since even old scientific facts are constantly reviewed & subjected to testing, science always self-corrects, albeit not instantly.

Proof that science works? your reading this aren't you? Without science, you would have slept in the grass, hoped you could get your hands on a plant or animal that didn't kill you first, and eventually die from a broken bone or abcessed tooth before you were 30.

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post #23 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-12-2007, 11:37 AM
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So by definition are you agnostic? Just wondering....

It seems, even if by sheer "wow" factor, much like watching a magician on TV, that prophecies that have come to pass would be interesting to people.
Those predictions are interesting but only for entertainment value. I go "wow that's cool". But I never attribute them to some higher power or whatever.

Yes, I've been agnostic even before I found out what "agnostic" means.

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post #24 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-12-2007, 11:37 AM
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It's easy for religious folks, they don't have to prove ANYTHING. It's all based on emotion (otherwide known as faith). All they need is a several thousand year old text, written by men (not god), and the faith that it's all real.

Science, on the other hand demands repeatable, verifiable proof. Yes there are scientific theories, but they remain theories until the scientific method proves or disproves them. Since even old scientific facts are constantly reviewed & subjected to testing, science always self-corrects, albeit not instantly.

Proof that science works? your reading this aren't you? Without science, you would have slept in the grass, hoped you could get your hands on a plant or animal that didn't kill you first, and eventually die from a broken bone or abcessed tooth before you were 30.

Scott
Well then I guess the question that you have to face is what do say to the claims made above in Brian's post that talks about prophecies that have been fulfilled. Not according to emotion or faith, but verifiable proof. If you didn't read above, take a minute to. It is all world history....you do believe in history right?

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post #25 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-12-2007, 11:38 AM
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Those predictions are interesting but only for entertainment value. I go "wow that's cool". But I never attribute them to some higher power or whatever.

Yes, I've been agnostic even before I found out what "agnostic" means.

Thanks, I appreciate your answer

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post #26 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-13-2007, 10:09 AM Thread Starter
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It's easy for religious folks, they don't have to prove ANYTHING. It's all based on emotion (otherwide known as faith). All they need is a several thousand year old text, written by men (not god), and the faith that it's all real.

Science, on the other hand demands repeatable, verifiable proof. Yes there are scientific theories, but they remain theories until the scientific method proves or disproves them. Since even old scientific facts are constantly reviewed & subjected to testing, science always self-corrects, albeit not instantly.

Proof that science works? your reading this aren't you? Without science, you would have slept in the grass, hoped you could get your hands on a plant or animal that didn't kill you first, and eventually die from a broken bone or abcessed tooth before you were 30.

Scott
Actually, if you want to get into "verifiable fact" and the "scientific method," my wife is a Ph.D. student about to get a Ph.D. in Cognative Neuroscience and works with kids with tramatic brain injury on a regular basis, testing and locating the parts of their brains that were effected, and also administering therapy. My wife says that Evolutionists basically spit on the scientific method with their untestable theories, because they can never get past step 4:

1. Define the question
2. Gather information and resources (observe)
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
7. Publish results
8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)

See, testable requires replication during the experiment. However, most of the theory of evolution cannot be tested or replicated, not to mention observed in the natural world. We have never seen a species evolve into a completely new species. Evolutionists had to redefine the steps of the scientific method to cover the fact that they cannot prove a thing so they don't look so stupid. Here's a statement about it from the National Center for Science Education:

“The failure of many students to understand and accept the fact of evolution is often a consequence of the naïve views they hold of the nature of science … According to this naïve view, the key to the unique success of science at producing true knowledge is ‘The Scientific Method’, which, on the standard account, involves formulating hypotheses, making predictions, and then going into the laboratory to perform the crucial experiment. In this parody of scientific methods, if a hypothesis passes the test set up by the crucial experiment, that is, if it is confirmed by direct observation, then it is ‘proven’ and it is considered a fact or a law and it is true for all time.
“In contrast, the work of many evolutionary biologists involves the reconstruction of the past. The methods they use do not conform to the standard view of ‘The Scientific Method’. …”

//www.ncseweb.org/resources/rncse_content/vol21/1132_the_goal_of_evolution_instruct_12_30_1899.asp

"In the inaugural issue of RNCSE, Alters (1997) proposed that the goal of evolution education should be to teach students to believe in evolution. He argued that educators have resisted teaching evolution with the goal of student belief on the basis of five misconceptions. These are (Alters 1997: 16):


1) “belief” means little more than personal convictions — no empirical evidence;
2) “belief” is never a goal in public education;
3) evolution has little empirical evidence;
4) belief cannot be assessed, therefore it does not belong as an educational goal;
5) teaching evolution with belief as a goal is tantamount to proselytizing students"

So, why are these scientists not conforming to the traditional scientific method like my wife must do every day in her experiements? Because they cannot test their theories. They can only theorize and hypothesize, but can never recreate their hypothesis.

Now, look back at the fathers of science. Most were creationists, actually, and accreditted God with creating science and order and intelligent design, yet they still discovered things like gravity and other laws of physics. Take Sir Isaac Newton for example:

_________________________
He said: "I have a fundamental belief in the Bible as the Word of God, written by men whoe were inspired. I study the Bible daily."

And also: All my discoveries have been made in answer to prayer. (Perloff, p241.)

His accomplishments were as follows:

He formulated his law of universal gravitation adding mathematical strength to Johannes Kepler's mathematical formulations of planetary motion.
He developed the theory of calculus at the same time as Leibniz.
He discovered that white light was made up of all the colours of the visible spectrum, by passing white light through one prism to form all the colours, and then passing it through another prism to recombine the colours back into white light again.
Using that knowledge of light, he improved the telescope.
He formulated his three famous laws of motion, including the law of inertia. [3]
He summarized a lot of his formulations in his book Philosophiae naturalis principia mathematica (mathematical principles of natural philosophy), and his work made great contributions to mathematics, physics and astronomy even for today.

This great scientist was also a creationist who saw order in the cosmos. He said: "This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent Being."

He also saw the senselessness in atheism, saying: "Atheism is so senseless. When I look at the solar system, I see the earth at the right distance from the sun to receive the proper amounts of heat and light. This did not happen by chance."
_________________________

Here's another quote I came across:

"Many of the world's great scientists have been Christians, and they have followed the example of Johannes Kepler, the founder of physical astronomy who discovered laws of planetary motion and the discipline of celestial mechanics and who demonstrated the heliocentricity of the solar system. Kepler's philosophy of science was to "think God's thoughts after him..."

"When Pasteur declared in a lecture that "science brings man nearer to God," Maury, Newton, Carver and scores of other groundbreaking creation scientists agreed. And they also agreed that science isn't man's greatest pursuit but that he should "seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness" (Matthew 6:33)."
_________________________

So, actually, a lot of the discoveries of science can be attributed to creationists in the past with a high belief of God. It wasn't until the 1800th century when Darwin started proposing the theory of evolution on a larger scale that scientists started to consider other possibilities. And evolution wasn't really taken seriously in broad academia until 1963 when the Supreme Court ruled that it was ok to teach it in schools.

The case was won using a tooth from the Scopes Trial of 1928. The tooth was found in Nevada and it was said to be a prehistorica man (Nevada Man, which can still be found in textbooks dispite its being disproven). They used the tooth in the 1963 trial and won. In 1964, the paleontologists went back to Nevada to dig up the rest of the skeleton in which they found the tooth only to find out that it was a pig's skeleton. Evolution made it into schools by way of a pig's tooth because scientists were SOOOOO sure that it was a prehistoric man's tooth. That tooth went to the Smithsonian where it still resides today, and an entire prehistoric man and his family was built for display around that one single pig's tooth. No prehistoric man bones have ever been found. Each has been either shown to be false or misunderstood in their interpretation. Yet most all of them are still found in textbooks dispite their disproval.

Evolutionists really grasp at things they can hang on to, regardless of their validity. Doesn't sound very scientific to me, especially since they have to redefine the scientific theory. A while back I read how a scientist was showing how Evolution scientists had redefined the scientific method to work for them and their theories. How sad is that. They can't accept that it's just a theory that cannot be tested. They have to make it appear more factual through altering scientific interpretation.

But this topic is not about science, though... don't want to go into that. That's a whole other can of worms. Just wanted to correct your statement a bit.

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post #27 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-13-2007, 10:12 AM Thread Starter
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I don't care much about them. Like I said earlier, they're good for entertainment factor but I don't worry about it or put much into it. Like believing in an ultimate creator or supreme being, it's pointless. It doesn't do jack for me. Me not having a religion is like a fish not having a bicycle. Having a scientific explanation or believing in a single cause to these prophecies are things I don't need to live my life.
So, in other words, your life is all about "you you you," and if there's no benefit in it for me, it's pointless, right?

Well, I completely understand why you wouldn't be interested in God then. Point taken.

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post #28 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-13-2007, 10:55 AM
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BrianC, I'm impressed with the effort & energy put into your response. However a few counter points:

"1) “belief” means little more than personal convictions — no empirical evidence;
2) “belief” is never a goal in public education;
3) evolution has little empirical evidence;
4) belief cannot be assessed, therefore it does not belong as an educational goal;
5) teaching evolution with belief as a goal is tantamount to proselytizing students"


Religion still has little to no empirical evidence, so you can't even call it a viable theory.

You mention Isaac Newton's use of Kepler's law of planetary motion....you do realize that Kepler was BURNED ALIVE by the Church for his assertions that the earth circled the sun? Do you also realize that in the last 15 years most of Newton's law of gravity has been proven flawed, science self corrects, even 300 years old laws. Kepler, Copernicus & Gallileo were all killed , imprisoned or threatened by the Church, those folks were Christians, right?

In that enviroment, can you blame Kepler, Copernicus, Gallileo & even Newtion(ony 200 years removed from the dark ages) for being "religious"? Thier lives depended on it!!

Evolution is a theory, creationism is a belief. Evolution may be proven some day, creationism never will be proven. I guess you think all of the MILLIONS of fossils dug up over the years are all fake? or thier all pig, gorilla or whale bones? You can find evidence of Evolution by digging in your backyard, can you find evidence of the bible in your backyard?

Remember the bible implies the earth is 6000 years old, so dinosaurs never existed millions of years ago. The T-rex & Brontosaurus fossils must be fake since thier hundreds of millions of years old, right?. So where did they come from? Bear in mind that you could never "fake" a T-rex or Brontosaurus skeletion using elephant & whale bones. Also bear in mind these millions of bones are fossils, a process of bone turning into minerals (rocks), and it's known to take longer than 6000 years.

In the next 10-30 years we will find life here in our solar system, possible microbial life on Mars, and maybe even simple vertibrates in the deeps oceans on Europa.

In the next 100-300 years we may establish contact with another intelligent planet, hundreds or thousands of light years away. They may well be be more advanced than humans, and it's doubtfull they will look just like humans. What does that do to your Bible? Since man was created in GOD'S image, he MUST be the most advanced in all the universe, right?

When that day comes, that bible will relegated to the large junkpile of mans' past mistaken beliefs.

Scott

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post #29 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-13-2007, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by BrianC
So, in other words, your life is all about "you you you," and if there's no benefit in it for me, it's pointless, right?

Well, I completely understand why you wouldn't be interested in God then. Point taken.
Yes it's my life to live. I don't live it for someone else because someone else told me that's what I should do.

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post #30 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-21-2007, 08:28 PM Thread Starter
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Yes it's my life to live. I don't live it for someone else because someone else told me that's what I should do.
I don't live it for someone else because I'm told I should. Where do you get that from the Bible? The Bible is telling you how to live YOUR life the way it was meant to be lived, in full joy and peace. It's about making your life so incredibly filled with love that it's overpouring and you have to share it with others.

The Bible is instruction on HOW to live life to the fullest and receive ultimate, true joy and happiness. It just so happens, though, that when you have that type of joy and peace you want to share it with others by helping others. The good life you are given through Jesus is so overflowing with love, you have to give it away.

Do you look at the Bible as if it's a bunch of commandments that say things like, "You better do this because I said so, or you're going to hell." That's just a lack of knowledge if that's your belief. In the Bible, we're told by Paul that, "for us (Christians), all things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial." In other words, since we are free from condemnation of sin, we are allowed to do anything we want, but if we do stupid things, we'll reap the consequences. He's telling Christians to have good judgement so they don't get into trouble and bring a bunch of unnecessary pain and suffering into their lives.

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post #31 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-21-2007, 08:46 PM
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I don't live it for someone else because I'm told I should. Where do you get that from the Bible? The Bible is telling you how to live YOUR life the way it was meant to be lived, in full joy and peace. It's about making your life so incredibly filled with love that it's overpouring and you have to share it with others.

The Bible is instruction on HOW to live life to the fullest and receive ultimate, true joy and happiness. It just so happens, though, that when you have that type of joy and peace you want to share it with others by helping others. The good life you are given through Jesus is so overflowing with love, you have to give it away.

Do you look at the Bible as if it's a bunch of commandments that say things like, "You better do this because I said so, or you're going to hell." That's just a lack of knowledge if that's your belief. In the Bible, we're told by Paul that, "for us (Christians), all things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial." In other words, since we are free from condemnation of sin, we are allowed to do anything we want, but if we do stupid things, we'll reap the consequences. He's telling Christians to have good judgement so they don't get into trouble and bring a bunch of unnecessary pain and suffering into their lives.
Damn! You are pretty extreme. That's entertaining.

I don't need a bible, koran, tao-te-ching, bhagavad gita or whatever to tell me how to do that. How come you do? I've made it through four decades without following some religious text on how to enjoy life and I'm pretty happy. Like you, I am allowed to do anything. If I do stupid things as defined in the laws of man (International law, federal law, Texas law, company policies, customs and courtesies of the culture I live in, etc.) I will suffer the consequences. I have the ability to learn so I don't do stupid things. All that... without some religious text.

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post #32 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-21-2007, 08:56 PM Thread Starter
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BrianC, I'm impressed with the effort & energy put into your response. However a few counter points:

"1) “belief” means little more than personal convictions — no empirical evidence;
2) “belief” is never a goal in public education;
3) evolution has little empirical evidence;
4) belief cannot be assessed, therefore it does not belong as an educational goal;
5) teaching evolution with belief as a goal is tantamount to proselytizing students"


Religion still has little to no empirical evidence, so you can't even call it a viable theory.
If it has no empirical evidence, then why can you not explain how the prophecies I laid out came to pass exactly to the year they were supposed to happen? There would have to be an all seeing God that could look ahead into the future to prophecy them. Sorry, but it's classic how you completely skip the proof that was clearly given. It cannot be coincidence. It's a statistical impossibility.

Quote:
You mention Isaac Newton's use of Kepler's law of planetary motion....you do realize that Kepler was BURNED ALIVE by the Church for his assertions that the earth circled the sun? Do you also realize that in the last 15 years most of Newton's law of gravity has been proven flawed, science self corrects, even 300 years old laws. Kepler, Copernicus & Gallileo were all killed , imprisoned or threatened by the Church, those folks were Christians, right?
First of all, I'm no advocate of the idiots in the past who couldn't get their doctrinal truths correct and used those incorrect doctrinal beliefs to torture others. Those people were legalistic religious idiots. That has nothing to do with spirituality and a relationship with God. That has everything to do with killing off those that oppose your views. Where is God in that? I highly doubt those "supposed Christians" were actually born again Christians or had a clue what it was all about. And if they did, they're just plain prideful and self-righteous and murderous. Not my fault. Scientists do stupid things all the time, plus they fabricate things as well to make their theories look better. But I don't attribute that across the board to scientists and use it to say they're all stupid. Your shots at the church as a whole by what actions of some legalistic idiots hundreds of years ago is simply a way to make it seem as if you're making a good point. Sorry, but it proves nothing, except that sometimes idiots take on the title of "Christian."

Quote:
In that enviroment, can you blame Kepler, Copernicus, Gallileo & even Newtion(ony 200 years removed from the dark ages) for being "religious"? Thier lives depended on it!!
Not everyone was forced into religion. lol In certain areas this would happen, but it was not like everyone was forced into religion. I was only making the point that it is possible to be a scientist and believe in God.

Quote:
Evolution is a theory, creationism is a belief. Evolution may be proven some day, creationism never will be proven. I guess you think all of the MILLIONS of fossils dug up over the years are all fake? or thier all pig, gorilla or whale bones? You can find evidence of Evolution by digging in your backyard, can you find evidence of the bible in your backyard?
Oh my, how you insult my intelligence. You think I'm stupid enough to say "fossils are fake?" That's ridiculous. No, the Bible explains exactly where those fossils came from. The Bible even talks about dinosaurs in a couple of parts. Everything was larger in the fossil record. The fossil record was the earth as it was before the flood. It was like a perfect environment for plants animals and humans and everything functioned in much larger size. If you give plants, animals and humans the appropriate environment, they will grow even larger than we find them today, due to the attributes of that environment aiding in their growth and longevity.

For instance, you can look at "pre-historic" amber (aka - pre-flood amber), and it has air bubbles in it with twice as much oxygen and twice as much air pressure, and a completely different atmospheric mix of elements. When scientists take these atmospheric readings from amber air bubbles and replicate it in a hyperbaric chamber, the human brain jumps from less than 4% activity to nearly 100% activity (all that means is that at any one given instance, there is never more than 4% of the full capacity of the brain being used due to a lack of oxygen to properly function). In other words, the human brain begins to function properly once it is placed into the environment it was designed to be in. Basically, the brain runs off oxygen. Currently, we have no oxygen in our blood plasma, so the blood hemoglobin carries a maximum of 4 oxygen molecules to your brain, and that's it. But when you're in the pre-flood atmosphere created by a hyperbaric chamber, the added pressure causes your blood plasma to be saturated with tons of oxygen molecules. When this happens, the blook plasma delivers TONS of oxygen to the brain and the brain has what it needs to properly function at nearly 100% activity, the way it was designed to work.

Now, as for animals and plants, if you stick them in an environment like that, it makes them grow extremely large. In fact, dinosaurs required an environment just like what I described in order to grow as large as they did. When the flood came along, it wiped out all plants and animals, and buried them in layers and layers of sediments, which fossilized them extremely quickly (go look up the layers caused by Mount St. Helen's errupting and how it laid "350,000" years worth of sediment layers in a matter of weeks during the erruption back in the 80's I think it was. Also look up how floods and lakes (bodies of water) cause layering, and how moisture, being the key element in fossilization, makes fossilization much faster. You'll find that a flood explains exactly the world we find today. And scientists have proven that humans, under the pre-flood world atmospheric conditions, would live very likely 10 times as long as they do today with the brain working at 100% capacity. They say the body heals itself incredibly fast under those conditions and I have seen many examples of this, even friends of mine who've been healed of things in a matter of weeks that should've taken years and years to heal.


Quote:
Remember the bible implies the earth is 6000 years old, so dinosaurs never existed millions of years ago. The T-rex & Brontosaurus fossils must be fake since thier hundreds of millions of years old, right?. So where did they come from? Bear in mind that you could never "fake" a T-rex or Brontosaurus skeletion using elephant & whale bones. Also bear in mind these millions of bones are fossils, a process of bone turning into minerals (rocks), and it's known to take longer than 6000 years.
And again, you act as if I haven't a clue about science, and I find it quite entertaining, because I can discuss science all day long and give blatant, obvious scientific evidence that implies my theory is correct, and evolution has tons of evidence and invalidates itself constantly. I find it funny how evolutions' evidences fit neatly into my theory of a 6,000 year old earth, and how I can prove that evolution is simply interpreting the data in a different manner, of which is not the only way to interpret the data, by any means.

Allow me to disprove your understanding of fossilization. Scientists just the other day found a bird they know was buried outside their offices in mud 2 years earlier. They came out in a statement in some magazine or news paper recently and said, "We found this bird that was buried two years ago in mud and it's fossilized exactly like a pteradactyl." Gee, did they not make the connection that added moisture is a HUGE player in fossilization since it's the very mechanism by which fossilization works. Moisture passes through a buried object, and carries part of the mass away and replaces it with mineral deposits. The more moisture, the quicker the fossilization. Pressure helps too. A flood would cause this to happen extremely quickly. Yes, I understand this stuff quite well. I take no offense at your assumption that I don't know science or can't explain this stuff. I just find it entertaining is all.

Quote:
In the next 10-30 years we will find life here in our solar system, possible microbial life on Mars, and maybe even simple vertibrates in the deeps oceans on Europa.

In the next 100-300 years we may establish contact with another intelligent planet, hundreds or thousands of light years away. They may well be be more advanced than humans, and it's doubtfull they will look just like humans. What does that do to your Bible? Since man was created in GOD'S image, he MUST be the most advanced in all the universe, right?

When that day comes, that bible will relegated to the large junkpile of mans' past mistaken beliefs.

Scott
You have fun with those assumptions about what science will or will not find. I'll stick with facts.

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post #33 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-23-2007, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by White trash wagon
You mention Isaac Newton's use of Kepler's law of planetary motion....you do realize that Kepler was BURNED ALIVE by the Church for his assertions that the earth circled the sun?
Inform the history books because they say Johannes Kepler died from illness in Regensburg. His MOTHER was accused twice of being a witch but was always released.

Kepler's religious problem was that he was a Lutheran living in Catholic areas and could not participate in the Catholic Eucharist.

If one item (which you capitalized for emphasis) in your post is so obviously wrong, how would we even begin to discuss the more delicate issues of Copernicus and Galileo?

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post #34 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-23-2007, 01:24 PM Thread Starter
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Inform the history books because they say Johannes Kepler died from illness in Regensburg. His MOTHER was accused twice of being a witch but was always released.

Kepler's religious problem was that he was a Lutheran living in Catholic areas and could not participate in the Catholic Eucharist.

If one item (which you capitalized for emphasis) in your post is so obviously wrong, how would we even begin to discuss the more delicate issues of Copernicus and Galileo?
He makes a good point. I don't know that much about historical figures such as these due to lack of study, so I enjoy people correcting me. Sticking to the issues at hand are more important, though, than recanting the past to make a point. (not speaking to anyone in particular here, really...just making a broad comment)

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post #35 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-23-2007, 03:10 PM
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if you blindfold me and give me enough darts I can hit the bullseye.

how do believers explain prophecies that don't come true?

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post #36 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-23-2007, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Shorty
if you blindfold me and give me enough darts I can hit the bullseye.

how do believers explain prophecies that don't come true?


Such as?.......

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post #37 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-23-2007, 06:42 PM
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Anyone can look at something, and if they want to badly enough, see something that's not there.

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post #38 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-25-2007, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by BrianC
All I've seen are things like the Dead Sea Scrolls and the 27,000 copies of the original manuscripts.
Really, you've read all 27,000 of them, have you? And you know the Dead Sea Scrolls have no mention of Jesus, right? They're quite old testament, despite being written shortly before, during, and after the time of christ and his disciples.

As for your "prophecies", why is it you people don't use the search function? These have been discussed several times in the past. The long and short of it, it's convenient for prophecies to be made, and fulfilled within the context of the bible. There has not been any prophecies made, that have been fulfilled outside of the context of the bible.

Quote:
Yet, prophecies about Ephraim say that he will be planted in a plesant place, guarded by the waters, and will tremple from the West. You go west from Israel and the U.S. is the only place you can go. It's protected by waters and you go first and you're in the far East again.
wha?

If you go west from Israel, you imediately run into Africa, not the US. You might even hit Sicily, or the various islands of Greece. Spain even. But the US is FAR from "the only place you can go", and all the other options before the US are also protected by waters.

How weird is that?!!1

Seriously, check it out!

Oh one more thing, does "a time" really mean 1000 years, or is that just something agreed upon in order to try and make the prophecies work? Seems to be only referenced biblically, as no other works indicate "a time" being 1000 years.

Quote:
So what is your take on all of the prophecies coming true to the day even.... they weren't written after theevents (i.e. after 1967), so that's not it. So what can we attribute their accuracy to?
The fact that, much like Nostrodamus, they're just vague enough to be applicable to just about anything you want to make them work.

Quote:
tramatic
What's that?

Quote:
effected
And that?

Quote:
However, most of the theory of evolution cannot be tested or replicated, not to mention observed in the natural world.
And this is why you knew little to nothing about evolution before becoming a creationist.

A little research on a subject will keep you from looking like an imbecile.

These statements:
Quote:
I don't live it for someone else because I'm told I should.
Quote:
The Bible is telling you how to live YOUR life the way it was meant to be lived, in full joy and peace.
they cannot be reconciled. They're completely contradictory.

Quote:
That has everything to do with killing off those that oppose your views. Where is God in that?
Exactly! It just so happens this is exactly what the church did for hundreds of year during the early expansion of christianity.

Quote:
The Bible even talks about dinosaurs in a couple of parts.
A large lizard does not a dinosaur make.

You claim everything was larger before the flood... yet we have no fossil records of pre-flood giant people. We have bones from dinosaurs as small as a robin, and as giant as 10 story building. But we have no giant people.

Let's not forget the fact that we have no geological record of a world-wide flood.

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post #39 of 145 (permalink) Old 11-28-2007, 04:55 PM
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What I don't get is that this Daniel guy claims to know all this stuff but nobody knows what day christ was born.
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post #40 of 145 (permalink) Old 12-01-2007, 05:23 PM
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blah blah

I think BrianC is full of sh*t....

Sorry, but enough bullsh*t.

I think you're full of sh*t because it takes you about 3-5 sentences just to get your point across... and by that time, I feel that you just like watching yourself type.

BTW: there is no way of knowing when the prophecies were written exactly, and no matter what you think, they did change them from generation to generation as time progressed. (Especially to make them more believable)

Off topic, but what the hell:
Jesus is the most quoted prophet in the Koran. Muslims LIKE jesus, they call him a fellow prophet to their Mohammed, it's the whole "son-of-god" thing that they disagree with.

No offense, but I just smell too much B.S. coming from your posts.

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post #41 of 145 (permalink) Old 12-01-2007, 06:58 PM
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I think BrianC is full of sh*t....

Sorry, but enough bullsh*t.

I think you're full of sh*t because it takes you about 3-5 sentences just to get your point across... and by that time, I feel that you just like watching yourself type.

BTW: there is no way of knowing when the prophecies were written exactly, and no matter what you think, they did change them from generation to generation as time progressed. (Especially to make them more believable)

Off topic, but what the hell:
Jesus is the most quoted prophet in the Koran. Muslims LIKE jesus, they call him a fellow prophet to their Mohammed, it's the whole "son-of-god" thing that they disagree with.

No offense, but I just smell too much B.S. coming from your posts.
Well, one thing Brian does do is give sources. So I am waiting for yours to verify prophecy changes, etc.

Btw, you can "like" Jesus all you want, if you don't think that He is the son of God, then you have missed it all. That "one small point" is huge.

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post #42 of 145 (permalink) Old 12-01-2007, 11:16 PM
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Well then I guess the question that you have to face is what do say to the claims made above in Brian's post that talks about prophecies that have been fulfilled. Not according to emotion or faith, but verifiable proof. If you didn't read above, take a minute to. It is all world history....you do believe in history right?
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post #43 of 145 (permalink) Old 12-01-2007, 11:33 PM
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Let's not forget the fact that we have no geological record of a world-wide flood.
as well as add in that many cultures from that era and region have their own folktales about a massive flood, some of which are dated older then the biblical accounts, and the fact that the Black Sea flooded the entire region early enough to correspond with the early years of the earth as creationists see it.
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post #44 of 145 (permalink) Old 12-02-2007, 03:18 PM
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Well, one thing Brian does do is give sources. So I am waiting for yours to verify prophecy changes, etc.

Btw, you can "like" Jesus all you want, if you don't think that He is the son of God, then you have missed it all. That "one small point" is huge.

Man... there's no way of knowing how many times the writings have evolved (forgive the pun).

But one thing is for sure- if it was written by man, then there has got to be some B.S. floating around in it somewhere.

Mateo
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post #45 of 145 (permalink) Old 12-03-2007, 06:53 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mateo5.0
Man... there's no way of knowing how many times the writings have evolved (forgive the pun).

But one thing is for sure- if it was written by man, then there has got to be some B.S. floating around in it somewhere.
Actually, we have, as I pointed out 27,000 manuscript pieces that confirm the accuracy of each other over and over again. In order to confirm those manuscripts, we have the oldest found copies which are the Dead Sea Scrolls and we know that they are dated back to the 2nd century BC:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Sea_Scrolls

They are UNTOUCHED since circa 200BC. In other words, they have not been altered in any form or fashion. And the fact that they make our 27,000 manuscripts we have today, also means that our Old Testament manuscripts have not been changed/altered in the past 2200 years, approximately.

You do a great job at giving completely uninformed opinion with nothing to back it up as if it will actually make a point to someone. You might want to study a little more before you go make absurd remarks like this. Besides, had you actually read the prophecies I laid out, you would see that it's impossible to make these prophecies happen over 2500 year periods. That's just absurd reasoning. It's statistically impossible.

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO
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post #46 of 145 (permalink) Old 12-03-2007, 07:05 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SlowLX
as well as add in that many cultures from that era and region have their own folktales about a massive flood, some of which are dated older then the biblical accounts, and the fact that the Black Sea flooded the entire region early enough to correspond with the early years of the earth as creationists see it.
This is a common argument that comes from very short-sighted, agenda driven scientists who just want to disprove the Bible (I'm not referring to you, of course).

Scientists agree that ALL of the world has been covered by water at one time or another. They just refuse to believe that ALL of the world was covered with water at the same time, because the Bible says it, and they choose to believe it's impossible.

All you have to do is go look at any mountain in the world. Every mountain has flood markings and has ocean life fossilized on it along with sea shells and things of that nature. On the highest mountains in the world you will find fossilized trilobytes which supposedly are some of the oldest lifeforms (500 million years old). Yet oceanographers say they've found trilobytes on the exteremely deep ocean floor (which would mean one of the first lifeforms was so complex and well adjusted without much evolution that it lasted 500 million years? Give me a break...). By the way, the trilobyte has one of the most scientifically advanced eyes scientists have ever seen. The SR-71 Blackbird copied this design to make it's super high resolution cameras that can take a picture of someone's shoes from 80,000 feet and count the shoe laces. That's extremely impressive for the early 1960's.

So, what is it? Was each part of the world covered with flood waters at different times, or was the whole thing covered at one time? How did all of the highest mountains on earth get ocean life on them and fossilized? Did the water rise that high, or have those mountains risen that high in 70 million years (when the Rockies supposedly started to form from an uplift in the tectonic plates)? Water erosion rates are greated than the rate at which scientists say mountains "grow." If these mountains had been eroding for the last 70 million years, those fossiles wouldn't even be there. They would've been "dug" out by the water erosion and washed away. If a mountain that high were covered with water, the earth was coverd with water. And more accurately, that mountain didn't start out that high. It "uplifted" like the scientists say it did, but it happened really quickly, and it wasn't 70 million years ago.

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO
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post #47 of 145 (permalink) Old 12-03-2007, 07:08 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SlowLX
as well as add in that many cultures from that era and region have their own folktales about a massive flood, some of which are dated older then the biblical accounts, and the fact that the Black Sea flooded the entire region early enough to correspond with the early years of the earth as creationists see it.

By the way, 200+ cultures have a flood story, and most all of them say that they came from 8 survivors on a very large boat (which just happens to be what the Bible says). Also, those 200+ cultures are from ALL around the world, not just the Black Sea area. They also mostly date it back to the past few thousand years, just like the Bible does (around 4400-4500 years ago). Gee, is there some big conspiracy where everyone got together and made up this story? Hmmmmm....that's real scientific...

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO
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post #48 of 145 (permalink) Old 12-03-2007, 08:25 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SlowLX
"Any fool can make history, but it takes a genius to write it."
Fools can interpret history too, but it takes a genius to put all the pieces together.

Doesn't take a genius to realize that a prophecy starting 2500 years ago that is accomplished on exactly the right year is not something mankind can orchestrate.

724BC (we know for certain that's the date of Ephraim's dispersal into the world by Assyria).

1776AD (We know that's when the U.S. became a nation).

-724BC + 2500 years = 1776AD

552BC - We know that the Israel was given the order to restore their wall and city(by historical reference and biblical cross reference).

1948AD - We know Israel became a nation because of WWII. Was WWII just a coincidence or was it cleverly orchestrated to fulfill a prophecy?

-552BC + 2500 years = 1948AD

533BC - We know that historical references date the 3rd year of Cyrus back to 533BC, which is when Daniel says he wrote another 2500 year prophecy, and that was the beginning date of it concerning control of Jerusalem and the temple mount.

1967AD - We know is the year that Israel got control of Jerusalem and the temple mount in the Six Day War.

-533BC + 2500 years = 1967AD

Once again, these are statistical impossibilities and there's NO WAY they are "vague" or just shots in the dark that would eventually come true. They involve entire nations of people and the world community. The U.N. was created in 1945, and they are the ones that gave the Jews their homeland back (not including Jerusalem where the temple mount is) in 1948. The Jews don't understand these prophecies, so how could they orchestrate this? Sorry...it's completely impossible unless there's a God that saw it all happen ahead of time... You make irrational arguments so you don't have to believe in a God. That's all there is to it. Or you never really read what I typed or considered it at all.

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO
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post #49 of 145 (permalink) Old 12-03-2007, 08:44 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mateo5.0
I think you're full of sh*t because it takes you about 3-5 sentences just to get your point across... and by that time, I feel that you just like watching yourself type.
So, does that make a Ph.D. student a completely imbecil since they take an entire 20-500+ pages to get their point across to their committee that decides whether they'll get their Ph.D. or not? Gee, I didn't know the smart people in the world were the ones that can sum up a full understanding of something like how how a cell replicates in a matter of one or two sentences.

The reason I explain things out at length is because I have to assume that people don't understand all of the details of what I'm talking about, which means I need to give some explanation for it to bring them up to speed. Or, in your case, I assume you're an idiot that has no knowledge of what I'm talking about, and in an attempt to fix your ignorance, I give you enough information so that you understand what is being discussed. I can't help that you're an uninformed idiot. That's your fault. I'm just sharing information so that you're not so uninformed. The idiot part, well...you have to fix that on your own.

What's the saying? Ignorance can be taught, but stupid is forever. Good luck with that...

Quote:
BTW: there is no way of knowing when the prophecies were written exactly, and no matter what you think, they did change them from generation to generation as time progressed. (Especially to make them more believable)
As I said before, we have 27,000 manuscripts, and the dead sea scrolls were untouched by human hands for nearly 2200 years. The dead sea scrolls show that the 27,000 manuscripts we have today are dead on accurate and unchanged, due to the fact that they are exactly like the untouched scrolls from the Dead Sea, which have been there since the 2nd century BC. Sorry, but once again, your ignorance has bitten you in the @$$. Learn something for a change so you can actually have an INFORMED opinion.

You simply get upset because someone proves a God that you want nothing to do with.

Even if the prophecies were changed, they would've had to have changed them to be more believeable as late as 1776, 1948 and 1967, yet the Jews don't even understand these prophecies. Good luck making that theory work. lol

Quote:
Off topic, but what the hell:
Jesus is the most quoted prophet in the Koran. Muslims LIKE jesus, they call him a fellow prophet to their Mohammed, it's the whole "son-of-god" thing that they disagree with.

No offense, but I just smell too much B.S. coming from your posts.
Jesus is not the most quoted prophet in the Koran. The Koran is the word of Muhommad himself. He is writing it as if he's the prophet from God sent to write God's book and do God's will (or Allah, if you will). The Koran claims that Jesus is the most important prophet in history, yet all Muslims place the most importance on Muhommad. That's the equivalent of Christians saying Jesus was the most important person in the Bible, but Paul is the one we listen to over Jesus since Paul wrote most of the New Testament; and when we die, we want to meet Paul, not Jesus. How absurd is that?

Jesus Himself said He was God on multiple occasions, and that He was the Son of God. Yet, the Koran says that Allah would not have it that He would have a Son. Gee, wonder who's correct here: Jesus or Allah? Wonder who's correct here: the religion that conquered nearly the entire known world and preaches hate of Christians, Jews then the rest of the world and breeds terrorists, or the religion that breeds peace and love of everyone? Yes, Christians in the past have used God's word completely incorrectly as grounds to kill people. But by-in-large, over time, the true message came out and anyone that reads it now can understand that it does not preach any hate or murder or anything like that. Mankind always screws up what God has given them.

For instance, most of the Bible is God, the prophets and apostles fighting against the religious and legalism. Yet, you won't hear that in a church today, usually. Why? Because most churches are religious (very doctrinally traditional) and legalistic in their interpretation (most is a widely interpretable word, so don't read into it too much). If you ask me, most non-spiritual people are upset with religion and the false impression of this angry God that wants to kill everyone for sinning. That's so incredibly the opposite of the Bible. The Bible is not legalistic at all. It frees you from all of that if you understand it properly. Why else would Paul have said, "For us, ALL things are permissible, but not all things are beneficial." He just gave us a license to do anything we want, due to the fact that we're not condemned by sin anymore. But he warns us that if we do sin, we may make our life harder unnecessarily.

Relationship with God is about freedom to do what you please, in hopes that you will choose right and have the desire to do right. I know from experience that when I read, study the Bible, pray and talk to God on a regular basis, my desire to do the wrong thing goes away. I have the option to do it, but I just don't have a desire anymore...

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO
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post #50 of 145 (permalink) Old 12-03-2007, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
By the way, 200+ cultures have a flood story, and most all of them say that they came from 8 survivors on a very large boat (which just happens to be what the Bible says). Also, those 200+ cultures are from ALL around the world, not just the Black Sea area. They also mostly date it back to the past few thousand years, just like the Bible does (around 4400-4500 years ago). Gee, is there some big conspiracy where everyone got together and made up this story? Hmmmmm....that's real scientific...
so where's the boat?
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