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post #1 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 09:04 PM Thread Starter
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3rd Thread for BrianC

Since you vowed not to post in the others...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
Answer me one question, under your theory:

Let's say there's a man that loves the Lord with all of his heart. You're saying that even though this man has chosen to love the Lord with all his heart and has accepted Jesus, that unless God CHOOSES this guy, he's never going to be saved, right?
For the last time, a man that is unregenerate will not love God and accept Jesus.

John 10
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Why don't they believe Brian? Because they didn't choose him? No wait a minute, in the present they are not believing so forget about what God saw in the future. Why are they not believing now, in the present?

"you do not believe because you are not my sheep"

Think this through logically, for your theory that we choose God and then seeing that choice in the future, God elects and chooses. What does this verse say Brian?

They don't become sheep by believing, they believe because they are sheep.
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post #2 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 09:06 PM Thread Starter
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What is your interpretation of that verse Brian, or anyone else?

Do we become sheep because we chose/believe or do we choose/believe because we are sheep?

John 10:25-27

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
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post #3 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 12:57 PM
lol, this place sucks now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
What is your interpretation of that verse Brian, or anyone else?

Do we become sheep because we chose/believe or do we choose/believe because we are sheep?

John 10:25-27

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

You are sheep. What difference does it really make? You're flocked either way.
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post #4 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 01:09 PM
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.. it sounds to me like you guys are saying very close to the same thing with different emphasis....

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Last edited by flashstang04; 11-09-2007 at 02:19 PM.
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post #5 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 02:07 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flashstang04
uhhh ok whatever.....


anyway, it sounds to me like you guys are saying very close to the same thing with different emphasis....
The emphasis is God choosing or man choosing though...
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post #6 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Phillystang
The emphasis is God choosing or man choosing though...
The emphasis that Phillystang refuses to acknowledge is that I keep saying that God is responsible for the faith in EVERYONE that allows us to seek, love and choose God, and therefore, God is responsible for our salvation. However, we have a choice to use that faith or get hard hearted and rebel against it and go against God. God doesn't force you to love Him, because that's not true love. That's playing puppet master with people's lives and takes free will completely off the table and says that this life is pointless since our destiny's already chosen by God and we're either going to go to hell against our will or go to heaven against our will. LIFE IS NOT POINTLESS! Thank you very much for that wonderful insight into your completely illogical theory, Phillystang.

I think I'll go tell the world right now that they don't need to worry about seeking Jesus, because God's going to force them into going to heaven or hell against their will anyway, so it doesn't matter what they do; may as well live it up and sin all ya' want! Have fun!!

Since you vowed not to post in the others...
[/quote]
What don't you understand about "I'm done with this conversation?"

Quote:
For the last time, a man that is unregenerate will not love God and accept Jesus.
For the last time, Jesus saw that in the beginning and didn't choose that guy that would not love God or accept Jesus. It's called "logical" when you know all and see the future. Oh, but I forgot...God's not logical. He's random, right?
Quote:
John 10
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Why don't they believe Brian? Because they didn't choose him? No wait a minute, in the present they are not believing so forget about what God saw in the future. Why are they not believing now, in the present?

"you do not believe because you are not my sheep"

Think this through logically, for your theory that we choose God and then seeing that choice in the future, God elects and chooses. What does this verse say Brian?

They don't become sheep by believing, they believe because they are sheep.
And once again, for the last time, they don't "hear" because they were not chosen. Why weren't they chosen? Because they ignored the faith in them that gives them the ability to believe and be saved. God knew they wouldn't believe and therefore did not choose them. It's WAY too simple...but there's no room for logic, wisdom or free will in your theory land. You kill the whole purpose for life itself and turn God into a mean God that casts people into hell for his pleasure. Again, nice job with that whole theory!

Pslam 91:14 says, "Because he loved Me, I will deliver him." That's pretty straight forward as to the cause of salvation and God's choice. Your answer is, "Because God MADE him love Him." I know, because you've already answered that way. Well, news flash, it doesn't say "because God MADE him love Him." It says BECAUSE he loved Me (God). You have to assume God MADE us love Him. The more logical answer is that God gave us faith to have the capacity to seek, choose and love God, and it's our choice whether we choose to act upon it or be hard hearted to it.

I just can't believe how pride blinds us to logic. Oh, let's not worry that life is made meaningless by this theory that God chooses and there's no free will. Because it makes way more sense that we're God's little play toys that He loves to cast into hell or force into love and heaven. Nice... I don't have time for your illogical rationality.

I'll say this one more time...I don't want to serve your God if He's just randomly saving people and randomly casting people into hell "for His good pleasure." You have fun with that view of God. I'll stick with the more logical, biblical view.

Here it is, just in case you didn't get this the first time: I'm done with this conversation.

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO

Last edited by BrianC; 11-09-2007 at 03:31 PM.
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post #7 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 03:40 PM Thread Starter
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Explain the verse, forget the argument for the moment and just break down the verse. Is that fair to ask?

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
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post #8 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Explain the verse, forget the argument for the moment and just break down the verse. Is that fair to ask?

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
Holy crap... You don't know when to quit do you? How many times do I have to disprove your view or show you the illogical nature of it? "I'm God and I have all wisdom, logic and the entire future and knowing all of man's hearts ahead of time, but when I choose my people, I'm going to completely disregard logic, wisdom and the fact that I know the hearts of men. Instead, I'm going to be completely random and take away free will completely and just cast people into hell as I please. I'm such a loving God, aren't I?"

You want your verse torn apart? I have already addressed this verse in one of my last posts! Now I know why you're not getting anything I'm saying...you're either not reading it or your attention span is about 5 seconds. Not sure which, but something's very wrong here.

Those who USE the faith given to them and CHOOSE to love God have ears to hear the truth. They do so because they choose to seek truth VIA their faith that God gave them. The other people who DO NOT know the Master's voice simply are not looking for the truth, and are choosing to block out the faith inside that makes them want to seek the Lord. They would rather seek selfish desires rather than what God desires of them. We've always had a simple choice...one sin: Either love God and obey Him, or don't love Him and rebel. It's that simple. The people that aren't Jesus' sheep and can't understand or hear His voice are those that are hardhearted toward the faith inside compelling them to seek the Lord. And because God knew that ahead of time about those people, He did not choose them.

Now, there is also the fact that God purposely blinded the Jews, in part, till the Gentiles come in full (something like that). So, those people Jesus was talking to were Jews, and most were purposely blinded to the truth so that God could shine His grace on the Gentiles instead. Yes, the Jews can be saved through the Old Covenant, even today. If they cannot be saved through loving the one true God because He promised it to them, then we cannot believe God's promises to us either. Make sense? So, those Jews were blinded to the Messiah for a good reason and they left. If you want to apply this statement to all men, not just Jews, it's a bit out of context, but I can definitely see how Jesus may have been applying this to all men. And in that case, I answered that at the beginning of this post.

I mean it, now...I'm really done with this conversation. Leave it be.

- Brian
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post #9 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-09-2007, 05:37 PM Thread Starter
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no need to be so angry...

... and I am sad to see that you could not break down the grammatical order of the sentence but instead rant and rave...
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post #10 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-10-2007, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
no need to be so angry...

... and I am sad to see that you could not break down the grammatical order of the sentence but instead rant and rave...
I'm not angry. I'm tired of repeating myself, and tired of talking to a brick wall on this subject. Tired of the lack of logic. Tired of the constant necessity of adding to verses to make your point instead of just going on what the verse says. I'm done. I can discuss stuff with someone that considers logic. But I can't discuss a subject where the person refuses to look at logic and instead just throws it right out the window. Sorry...not going there. Not having this discussion with you anymore. Other subjects are fine, but this one's done. There's no point in it.

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post #11 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-10-2007, 12:15 PM Thread Starter
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Understood, this is for anyone else besides BrianC.

What is your interpretation of this verse

Do we become sheep because we chose/believe or do we choose/believe because we are sheep?

John 10:25-27

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
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post #12 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-10-2007, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Understood, this is for anyone else besides BrianC.

What is your interpretation of this verse

Do we become sheep because we chose/believe or do we choose/believe because we are sheep?

John 10:25-27

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
we become sheep when we choose to believe, clearly he is answering the Jews quesion to whether or not he was the messiah vs 24, they were not his sheep because they did not believe even though he had done the miracles in front of them( the purpose of miracles). they choose not to believe and thus were not his "sheep". as to why they dont believe it isnt said, trying to impune anything after that is pure speculation.
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post #13 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-10-2007, 01:39 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shrp88lx's
we become sheep when we choose to believe, clearly he is answering the Jews quesion to whether or not he was the messiah vs 24, they were not his sheep because they did not believe even though he had done the miracles in front of them( the purpose of miracles). they choose not to believe and thus were not his "sheep". as to why they dont believe it isnt said, trying to impune anything after that is pure speculation.
for what you said to work,
this sentence... 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep


would need to read... 26but you are not my sheep because you do not believe


it doesn't say that (the latter) and so I cannot logically accept your interpretation.
I submit that it does answer why they don' believe: "you do not believe because you are not my sheep"
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post #14 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-10-2007, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
for what you said to work,
this sentence... 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep


would need to read... 26but you are not my sheep because you do not believe


it doesn't say that (the latter) and so I cannot logically accept your interpretation.
I submit that it does answer why they don' believe: "you do not believe because you are not my sheep"
i would submit that both say the same thing. LOOK AT THE CONTEXT..vs 24 its very important for the interpretation of the next verses 25 is attached to 26 by the "BUT" in vs 26 and 25 is a continuation of vs 24. a verses break is not a sentence break. I will try and find a translation from the original text, what translation are you quoting from.

i will also compare other text were followers are refered to as "sheep"

What point are you trying to make from this verses?? so I understand completely your position....predestination???
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post #15 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-10-2007, 02:35 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shrp88lx's
i would submit that both say the same thing. LOOK AT THE CONTEXT..vs 24 its very important for the interpretation of the next verses 25 is attached to 26 by the "BUT" in vs 26 and 25 is a continuation of vs 24. a verses break is not a sentence break. I will try and find a translation from the original text, what translation are you quoting from.

i will also compare other text were followers are refered to as "sheep"

What point are you trying to make from this verses?? so I understand completely your position....predestination???
from post #11

Quote:
Do we become sheep because we chose/believe or do we choose/believe because we are sheep?
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post #16 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-10-2007, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Phillystang
from post #11
you ask it like a question but clearly have a view....which I am interpreting as predestination??
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post #17 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-10-2007, 03:59 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shrp88lx's
you ask it like a question but clearly have a view....which I am interpreting as predestination??
Are you implying that that is a foreign concept or something that I made up?

1. Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

2. Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

3. Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

4. Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
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post #18 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-10-2007, 04:01 PM
Yes.....its a V6.
 
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Originally Posted by BrianC
Holy crap... You don't know when to quit do you? How many times do I have to disprove your view or show you the illogical nature of it? "I'm God and I have all wisdom, logic and the entire future and knowing all of man's hearts ahead of time, but when I choose my people, I'm going to completely disregard logic, wisdom and the fact that I know the hearts of men. Instead, I'm going to be completely random and take away free will completely and just cast people into hell as I please. I'm such a loving God, aren't I?"

You want your verse torn apart? I have already addressed this verse in one of my last posts! Now I know why you're not getting anything I'm saying...you're either not reading it or your attention span is about 5 seconds. Not sure which, but something's very wrong here.

Those who USE the faith given to them and CHOOSE to love God have ears to hear the truth. They do so because they choose to seek truth VIA their faith that God gave them. The other people who DO NOT know the Master's voice simply are not looking for the truth, and are choosing to block out the faith inside that makes them want to seek the Lord. They would rather seek selfish desires rather than what God desires of them. We've always had a simple choice...one sin: Either love God and obey Him, or don't love Him and rebel. It's that simple. The people that aren't Jesus' sheep and can't understand or hear His voice are those that are hardhearted toward the faith inside compelling them to seek the Lord. And because God knew that ahead of time about those people, He did not choose them.

Now, there is also the fact that God purposely blinded the Jews, in part, till the Gentiles come in full (something like that). So, those people Jesus was talking to were Jews, and most were purposely blinded to the truth so that God could shine His grace on the Gentiles instead. Yes, the Jews can be saved through the Old Covenant, even today. If they cannot be saved through loving the one true God because He promised it to them, then we cannot believe God's promises to us either. Make sense? So, those Jews were blinded to the Messiah for a good reason and they left. If you want to apply this statement to all men, not just Jews, it's a bit out of context, but I can definitely see how Jesus may have been applying this to all men. And in that case, I answered that at the beginning of this post.

I mean it, now...I'm really done with this conversation. Leave it be.
Wow, religion is just full of love isnt it.....

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post #19 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-10-2007, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Are you implying that that is a foreign concept or something that I made up?

1. Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

2. Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

3. Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

4. Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
nope not implying that. just asking a question. the internet is sometimes very difficult to have these type discussion so I want to be sure I am understanding your position properly?
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post #20 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 05:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Duncan
Wow, religion is just full of love isnt it.....
Religion is full of prideful people, which is exactly why I don't care for religion. Spirituality (a relationship with the Lord) is great, but religious rules and traditions that have been passed down from man to man, I care nothing for. I want truth...not someone else's opinion on something. I love hearing opinions and seeing if they agree with the Bible. But men are fallible and you find a TON of fallible opinions out there. I love to discover truth and share it with others. I can't stand talking to brick walls of pride, though. Because they are self-absorbed with pride and just want to be right. I couldn't care less about being right. I just want to know the truth.

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post #21 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Are you implying that that is a foreign concept or something that I made up?

1. Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

2. Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

3. Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

4. Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
I can't believe I'm responding to you, but I seem to have forgotten to share the very basis of where the Bible teaches free will and why God has to allow us to choose...

Genesis 1:26
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

Mankind has complete, 100% DOMINION over the earth and everything on it. Do you know what dominion means? Let's see what the dictionary says:

Dominion
1. the power or right of governing and controlling; sovereign authority.
2. rule; control; domination.
3. a territory, usually of considerable size, in which a single rulership holds sway.
4. lands or domains subject to sovereignty or control.

MANKIND has sovereign control over the earth and everything on it. If you haven't noticed, mankind is on the earth, and we have complete control over ourselves too! We are sovereign!! Sovereignty means free will with no one else controlling you. God does not control us, nor has He ever from the beginning of the creation!

When we had a perfect nature free of sin in the beginning, we were ruling the earth with a nature of good. When Satan lied to us and we bought it, we corrupted ourselves and the entire earth and everything in it with sin. Your leader says everything about you. Since we were the leader of everything on earth and earth itself, our sin went through us and into everything else. ALL of the earth was corrupted by sin. And every person born after Adam and Eve was born into the sin nature as well. We ruled the earth with the sin nature. Satan's nature is the sin nature. Notice the wording Satan uses in this verse:

Luke 4:6
And the devil said to Him, "I will give You all this domain and its glory; for it has been handed over to me, and I give it to whomever I wish."

HANDED OVER to Satan. HANDED. How? Through the sin nature. We rule the earth through Satan's sin nature now. Before Jesus, the Jews were the saints of the Old Testament. David said that he knew his Savior and Redeemer as well as Job, and Job's the first book of the Bible ever put down on paper, probably within the first 400 years after the flood. Even Job knew he had a Redeemer in heaven.

The one way to be saved has always been to obey God. The one way to be condemned has always been to rebel against God (blaspheme the gift of the Holy Spirit). We're told the Holy Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance to come. We're told that David had the Holy Spirit come on him at a fairly young age when Samuel prophesied that David would be king. You and David are not dissimilar. You both have the Holy Spirit. You both know you have a Redeemer. David was sanctified by God without knowing Jesus, but understood that part of God was the savior. He may or may not have known Jesus' name, because Jesus' name in Hebrew is Yeshuwah, which means salvation from God, or God's salvation or "My (God's) salvation." We see Yeshuwah (Strong's #3444) all throughout the Psalms and other Old Testament books. You'd be surprized how you can swap out "my salvation" for Jesus' name and it works perfectly. So, we're not entirely sure if David did or didn't know who Jesus was. But we do know this...he had salvation before the cross, and he always had dominion over the earth as a man.

Jesus didn't JUST come to die for our sins. Jesus came to get control of the earth. Jesus came as a sinless man, and free of sin, he would've lived forever, because we're told sin causes death. But Satan had to get the king off the earth. So Satan kills Jesus, which violated the law of sin and death. This gave Jesus full ownership of all things on heaven and earth:

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."

So, the question is this: We know we had free will (dominion) in the physical realm to begin with, but when Jesus died and became the ultimate authority over all things, did He suddenly take away our free will and start forcing us to be saved? But I thought God never changed? Did He change His mind about free will and how to be saved?

Ahhhhh...but wait. Jesus is ruling in His heavenly kingdom right now, and has appointed a time for His return to the physical world to take control again. But that time has not yet come.

Revelation 11:15
[ The Seventh Trumpet--Christ's Reign Foreseen ] Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, " The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever."

Notice the wording: HAS BECOME the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ. Has become implies that it is not yet His kingdom. In other words, it's our kingdom still. He's still allowing us dominion (free will) to rule the earth as we please. Besides, I wouldn't blame this horrible world on Him anyway. Obviously, He's not ruling yet. Sure, He works behind the scenes in the spiritual realm and even sometimes when people pray, He will work in the physical realm. But He is working at our request, because we still have dominion. When we become Christians we are GIVEN Christ's authority over all things. But Christ Himself isn't ruling yet.

Christ is patient and wants to give everything time to come to Him. That's why He chose not to take control over the earth for another 2,000+ years after He died.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

James 5:7,8
Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.

We have to strengthen our hearts, because sinful man still rules this earth. And sinful men are against us which have a nature contrary to the sin nature. Satan wants to seduce us with the ways of the world to appeal to our sin nature. But that's not who we really are, now. But he sure wants us to believe and operate under that deception, though.

Free will has been present since the beginning according to Genesis 1:26. You can deny the Bible all you like, but it doesn't change the fact that God made this earth and gave it to us fully and completely. We own the physical realm, period, end of story. I'm not willing to just throw out what the Bible says in order to be "right" about my view. I'll stick with the truth of what it says, and it says we have dominion (free will) over the earth.

- Brian
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post #22 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
for what you said to work,
this sentence... 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep


would need to read... 26but you are not my sheep because you do not believe


it doesn't say that (the latter) and so I cannot logically accept your interpretation.
I submit that it does answer why they don' believe: "you do not believe because you are not my sheep"
It sounds like you have made up your mind on this point. Are you simply baiting traps for others?

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post #23 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
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It sounds like you have made up your mind on this point. Are you simply baiting traps for others?
You've come to the same conclusion I have. Philly doesn't want to listen to anyone else or consider that he's wrong. He's simply made up his mind and if someone doesn't agree with him, well, by golly, they better!! lol

I've disproven his theory on multiple grounds so far, and shown how it defeats the whole purpose of life and turns God into a God who delights in casting people into hell for no apparent reason and how the Bible disagrees in at least two places, yet he cannot seem to get past his own supreme intelligence and logic on this matter.

No offense with the supreme intelligence and logic remark, Philly. More of a joke than anything. I've never met someone more intent on forcing other people to believe what they believe, regardless of the arguments presented or how illogical their belief is. Well, I take that back; I've met a Jehovah's Witness that was the same way.

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post #24 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 12:32 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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It sounds like you have made up your mind on this point. Are you simply baiting traps for others?
Yes, my mind has been made up based on the Scriptures and not on feelings. There is no trap, what does the verse say? What is the cause and effect?
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post #25 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 12:44 PM Thread Starter
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You've come to the same conclusion I have. Philly doesn't want to listen to anyone else or consider that he's wrong. He's simply made up his mind and if someone doesn't agree with him, well, by golly, they better!! lol
You may be blind to see that the same could be said of your position. Show me once where you gave any credibility to any other position than your own? Could it not be said that you have made up your mind on the issue as well? But I am the bad guy here who is prideful?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
I've disproven his theory on multiple grounds so far
Out of context and misinterpreted Scriptures is hardly grounds for celebrating the debunking of my "theory". Guess what, it is not my theory. It is the basic doctrines of the Reformation and the doctrines taught during the Great Awakening and the many great revivals and moves of God in the past 300 years.

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Originally Posted by BrianC
and shown how it defeats the whole purpose of life and turns God into a God who delights in casting people into hell for no apparent reason
No apparent reason? What is the wages of sin Brian?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
and how the Bible disagrees in at least two places, yet he cannot seem to get past his own supreme intelligence and logic on this matter.
You fail to see that this sentence can be returned back towards you... Where have you given credibility to any position other than your own?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
No offense with the supreme intelligence and logic remark, Philly. More of a joke than anything. I've never met someone more intent on forcing other people to believe what they believe, regardless of the arguments presented or how illogical their belief is. Well, I take that back; I've met a Jehovah's Witness that was the same way.
Forcing? Over a web forum? Where is my forcing or threats? Your posts contained the rants and raving that caused Duncan to question your love. If anything, my hope has been to shine the light of Scriptures on the doctrines of grace that most 'Christians' misunderstand and hate, which is evident in your posts.
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post #26 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 12:51 PM Thread Starter
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2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

I am glad you used that verse, I saw a video just yesterday on youtube about it. You are a sensible person, give it a watch.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=124vIQMRRHI
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post #27 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 12:55 PM Thread Starter
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I can't stand talking to brick walls of pride, though. Because they are self-absorbed with pride and just want to be right. I couldn't care less about being right. I just want to know the truth.
Have you not held your position and I have held mine? But you are the humble person and I am prideful?
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post #28 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 12:59 PM
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i would dare to say that no one is here to change their views, we are simply enjoying some theological debating. Only sitting together could any real discussion take place. No 1 verse proves anything without others, if the verses appear to be contradictory then someone has interpreted them wrong, the Bible/ God is not going to send us into confusion we do that on our own.


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"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life , and there are few who find it.
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post #29 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 05:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Yes, my mind has been made up based on the Scriptures and not on feelings. There is no trap, what does the verse say? What is the cause and effect?
OK, so your mind has been made up. Then why ask the following question if you aren't really looking for an answer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Understood, this is for anyone else besides BrianC.

What is your interpretation of this verse

Do we become sheep because we chose/believe or do we choose/believe because we are sheep?


John 10:25-27

25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
BrianC gives you an answer and you snipe him like you are trying to make some point. What kind of game is this?

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post #30 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 06:33 PM
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Here it is in the NIV. Maybe it helps ya understand a little better.

19At these words the Jews were again divided. 20Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?"

21But others said, "These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?"

The Unbelief of the Jews
22Then came the Feast of Dedication[a] at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ,[b] tell us plainly."
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[c]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."
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post #31 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 06:41 PM Thread Starter
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OK, so your mind has been made up. Then why ask the following question if you aren't really looking for an answer?
As a proof for my point of view and to show that the verse would need to read otherwise for his 'theory' to work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HORSPLA
BrianC gives you an answer and you snipe him like you are trying to make some point. What kind of game is this?
His answer wasn't an honest breakdown of the cause/effect of the sentence that I was hoping for but rather another chance for him to say that man has free will even though the many texts say otherwise.

It clearly states that it is not man's will or efforts but rather on God who has mercy.

Romans 9:1616So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
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post #32 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 06:42 PM
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Those who are not sheep do not believe, because they are not sheep.
At first that statement sounds like double talk, but that’s essentially what the Lord told the unbelieving Jews in verse 26: “You do not believe because you are not My sheep.” Here we have an indication of the sovereignty of God in calling an individual to salvation. We’re saved because God chose us.

Of course the Bible also teaches that every individual is responsible to respond to God’s call and come to Him for salvation. God sovereignly chooses us, but we have a responsibility to choose God. Both points are true, and they are not contradictory truths. The Bible does not say in one passage that God sovereignly chooses us, and in another passage that God does not choose us. It doesn’t say in one Scripture that people are responsible to respond to God, and in another Scripture that people are not responsible to respond. These would be contradictions. The Bible teaches that God sovereignly chooses the saved and also teaches that people are responsible to choose to be saved. How these truths harmonize is beyond our finite human comprehension, but the two truths do not contradict one another.
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post #33 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 07:01 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSnake1996
Those who are not sheep do not believe, because they are not sheep.
At first that statement sounds like double talk, but that’s essentially what the Lord told the unbelieving Jews in verse 26: “You do not believe because you are not My sheep.” Here we have an indication of the sovereignty of God in calling an individual to salvation. We’re saved because God chose us.
amen!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackSnake1996
Of course the Bible also teaches that every individual is responsible to respond to God’s call and come to Him for salvation. God sovereignly chooses us, but we have a responsibility to choose God. Both points are true, and they are not contradictory truths. The Bible does not say in one passage that God sovereignly chooses us, and in another passage that God does not choose us. It doesn’t say in one Scripture that people are responsible to respond to God, and in another Scripture that people are not responsible to respond. These would be contradictions. The Bible teaches that God sovereignly chooses the saved and also teaches that people are responsible to choose to be saved. How these truths harmonize is beyond our finite human comprehension, but the two truths do not contradict one another.
I would agree that people are responsible to respond to God under the preaching of the Gospel and would add that no one would respond in true faith unless God first acted upon the hearts of the sinners in regeneration.

The Old Testament has many great pictures of the conversion that God would do in the future.

Ezekiel 11:19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. 20 Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.
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post #34 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
amen!



I would agree that people are responsible to respond to God under the preaching of the Gospel and would add that no one would respond in true faith unless God first acted upon the hearts of the sinners in regeneration.

The Old Testament has many great pictures of the conversion that God would do in the future.

Ezekiel 11:19 I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. 20 Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.
That has always been my understanding. But there is also a passage somewhere that states that everyman will have the chance to except him.
I'mm too tired to find it right now, but I'm sure you can do a little search and find it.
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post #35 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
As a proof for my point of view and to show that the verse would need to read otherwise for his 'theory' to work.



His answer wasn't an honest breakdown of the cause/effect of the sentence that I was hoping for but rather another chance for him to say that man has free will even though the many texts say otherwise.

It clearly states that it is not man's will or efforts but rather on God who has mercy.

Romans 9:1616So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
I don't agree with your interpretations...and your approach seems a little gamey to me.

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Last edited by HORSPLA; 11-13-2007 at 07:10 PM.
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post #36 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 10:34 PM
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Have you not held your position and I have held mine? But you are the humble person and I am prideful?
I've said MULTIPLE times that I'm not going to claim that I'm 100% correct, because that's arrogant and prideful. I also said that I'm willing to simply let it go by saying that we both simply have different interpretations. Yes, I'm being very humble in that I'm not forcing my view down your throat. I'm simply stated my case and the Bible agrees with it in my opinion. In your opinion, you are correct and you believe the Bible agrees with you as well. Therefore, let it go! But you have refused to let it go time and time again... Yes, I'm humble here. I didn't debate you to change your mind. I debated you in order for you to present your case and me present mine. I've seen nothing from you that I haven't heard before and I've seen nothing convincing whatsoever. Therefore, I have no reason to believe in your view. It's pretty darn simple. But, like I said...you won't let it go. If I don't believe what you believe, you keep at it as if you have a mission to change my view. It's my view. It's my choice. That's that.

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post #37 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 10:43 PM
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Forcing? Over a web forum? Where is my forcing or threats? Your posts contained the rants and raving that caused Duncan to question your love. If anything, my hope has been to shine the light of Scriptures on the doctrines of grace that most 'Christians' misunderstand and hate, which is evident in your posts.
What the heck?? Where I am "hating" grace doctrine?? Frustration with arrogance and pride is much different than hating. I don't hate you. Not even mad at you. I just can't believe how you won't quit. I've tried to end this conversation multiple times, and you keep going. That's called pride. When you HAVE to be right. I can't contend with pride. Can't do it. Not my job...

And don't you dare say that you're trying to "shine the light of scripture on the doctrines of "GRACE" that most Christians misunderstand and hate.

My posts show that God has given DOMINION (sovereign control, free will) to mankind. My posts show that God allows us to choose, and will not simply damn people at his pleasure. My view shows that God simply looked ahead into the future and into our hearts and knew who would choose Him, and therefore, chose them in advanced. The rest, whom He knew would never choose Him, were not chosen. My view gives purpose to life and fits the Bible.

Your view destroys the meaning of life and makes God out to be someone who chooses to toss people into hell. You said this:

Quote:
No apparent reason? What is the wages of sin Brian?
So, what you're saying is that since mankind sinned in Adam, and we're all sinful, that God is just going to choose a few of us to save and toss the rest into hell, and God will give us know free will in the matter, right? That's exactly the view you're expressing. Does that sound like the grace message to you? Sorry...I want nothing to do with that God. Mine is much more loving and gives everyone a chance to choose Him, and He's smart enough to look ahead into the future and know who will and who won't choose Him, and He chooses the ones that will choose Him. It's that simple. You have fun with your God. I have no desire to believe in false doctrine.

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post #38 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 10:45 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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I've said MULTIPLE times that I'm not going to claim that I'm 100% correct, because that's arrogant and prideful. I also said that I'm willing to simply let it go by saying that we both simply have different interpretations. Yes, I'm being very humble in that I'm not forcing my view down your throat. I'm simply stated my case and the Bible agrees with it in my opinion. In your opinion, you are correct and you believe the Bible agrees with you as well. Therefore, let it go! But you have refused to let it go time and time again... Yes, I'm humble here. I didn't debate you to change your mind. I debated you in order for you to present your case and me present mine. I've seen nothing from you that I haven't heard before and I've seen nothing convincing whatsoever. Therefore, I have no reason to believe in your view. It's pretty darn simple. But, like I said...you won't let it go. If I don't believe what you believe, you keep at it as if you have a mission to change my view. It's my view. It's my choice. That's that.
That's why in post #11 I said

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Understood, this is for anyone else besides BrianC.
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post #39 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 10:45 PM
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Yes, my mind has been made up based on the Scriptures and not on feelings. There is no trap, what does the verse say? What is the cause and effect?
I love how you completely disregarded the fact that I showed where God gave man free will when He first created us. What...not gonna' comment on that?

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post #40 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-11-2007, 11:09 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
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What the heck?? Where I am "hating" grace doctrine??
Do a google search under "doctrines of grace" BrianC and you will see that that is what you are disagreeing with and calling a false doctrine


Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
Frustration with arrogance and pride is much different than hating. I don't hate you. Not even mad at you. I just can't believe how you won't quit. I've tried to end this conversation multiple times, and you keep going. That's called pride. When you HAVE to be right. I can't contend with pride. Can't do it. Not my job...
In post #11 I said "this is for anyone else besides BrianC."

And what happened? You came back, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
And don't you dare say that you're trying to "shine the light of scripture on the doctrines of "GRACE" that most Christians misunderstand and hate.
once again, google it

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
My posts show that God has given DOMINION (sovereign control, free will) to mankind. My posts show that God allows us to choose, and will not simply damn people at his pleasure. My view shows that God simply looked ahead into the future and into our hearts and knew who would choose Him, and therefore, chose them in advanced. The rest, whom He knew would never choose Him, were not chosen. My view gives purpose to life and fits the Bible.
You're right, all the verses that speak of God's electing, choosing, preordaining, etc. are actually meaning something other than their normal definition.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
Your view destroys the meaning of life and makes God out to be someone who chooses to toss people into hell.
Romans 9
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
So, what you're saying is that since mankind sinned in Adam, and we're all sinful, that God is just going to choose a few of us to save and toss the rest into hell, and God will give us know free will in the matter, right? That's exactly the view you're expressing. Does that sound like the grace message to you?
Jeremiah 13
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
Sorry...I want nothing to do with that God. Mine is much more loving and gives everyone a chance to choose Him, and He's smart enough to look ahead into the future and know who will and who won't choose Him, and He chooses the ones that will choose Him. It's that simple. You have fun with your God. I have no desire to believe in false doctrine.
Mark 13:20If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

Last edited by Phillystang; 11-11-2007 at 11:46 PM.
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post #41 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-12-2007, 12:00 AM Thread Starter
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This is a marvelous verse

Jeremiah 13
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.

A lost man can no more choose God than a leopard change its spots or a black man his skin color. What would it take for a leopard to change its spots or a black man his skin color? A work of God.

Here is another verse for you to interpret Brian, once again, what is the grammatical order?

Acts 13:48

48When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
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post #42 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-12-2007, 10:54 AM
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While I have personal opinions on this subject , I will not post here because of the turn this thread has taken.

So I put this forward to you both....

Agree that Christ is the only way to salvation.... (obviously you both do), and call it a day, and vow to work it out in Heaven.

I think we have given non believers enough ammo for one thread with the bickering, don't you?

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post #43 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-12-2007, 01:50 PM
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LMAO... Feel the love...
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post #44 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-12-2007, 06:19 PM
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Having said all this...wouldnt you agree that all man will be called upon for salvation?
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post #45 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-13-2007, 04:39 AM
What does that do ???
 
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Quote:
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Having said all this...wouldnt you agree that all man will be called upon for salvation?
The bible does say that we must be drawn by God to Jesus in order for us to come to know Him.
John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
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post #46 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-13-2007, 05:07 AM
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Quote:
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The bible does say that we must be drawn by God to Jesus in order for us to come to know Him.
John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
I agree, but the question is still the same. Would you agree that all man will be called unto salvation? The key words being "all man."
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post #47 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-13-2007, 06:53 AM
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Quote:
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Do a google search under "doctrines of grace" BrianC and you will see that that is what you are disagreeing with and calling a false doctrine
Yes, I know these doctrines and you know what? I don't take other people's "views" for granted. Instead, I trust the Lord to reveal the truth in His word. Only one of the five views expresses that God selects us on no merits, and it is in conflict with Psalm 91:14-16 and Genesis 1:26.

Quote:
In post #11 I said "this is for anyone else besides BrianC."
And what happened? You came back, right?
Quote:
You're right, all the verses that speak of God's electing, choosing, preordaining, etc. are actually meaning something other than their normal definition.
Oh, come on. Man was given dominion over the earth and everything on it. Everything in the phyiscal except that which is outside of the earth. That would include ourselves. We chose to fall from grace in the beginning and we are ruling ourselves. I love how you just turn Bible verses right on their heads as if they mean completely the opposite of what they mean, or you completely disregard them altogether. Nice debate tactic. You're starting to sound like a democratic presidential candidate...kind of like Hillary; divert the questions!!


Quote:
Romans 9
22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Once again, this verse speaks NOTHING of how God made His choice. You are EXTREMELY good at using verses to argue a point that we're not even arguing! Because if we ever argued just my point and used verses to do so and logic, you'd lose everytime. You really just don't understand how your view breaks down all meaning of life and makes God fairly unreasonable and unloving. Yes, none of us deserve to be saved. But God knew that would happen ahead of time. He's not an idiot. He saw the future and chose us ahead of time. He did not force us to do anything, because we are given dominion (free will, soveriegn rule) over the earth and ourselves.

Why do you think Jesus had to come AS A MAN?? He had to gain the RIGHT to rule, but since He hadn't been born as a man and lived as a man and died as a man, he'd have no right to rule due to the law of dominion given to us at creation. Seriously, you really gotta' learn the big picture, because if you really saw how it all fit, you'd see how your view just destroys so much love in God and so much awesome design to everything. But you just can't get past your beliefs and doctrines which others convinced you of, and which you now hold. Common sense and logic in this one topic seems to evade you. I don't get it. But then again, it would seem like you would rather agree with others than to take an honest look at scripture...or you just can't wrap your mind around the fairly simple concept I'm producing here. Or it could simply be pride. I haven't a clue and don't really care.

I've showed you many ways how your view makes no sense and does not agree with scripture when you get down to the foundation of what's really at question here: how did God decide. Everytime you get to that point, it becomes illogical with your argument, so you keep arguing the level right above that, which is NOT what this is about.

Quote:
Jeremiah 13
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.
Once again, this has nothing to do with HOW GOD MAD HIS CHOICE IN THE BEGINNING!! He looked ahead into the future. We know that much. He KNEW us before we knew Him. We know that for sure. He knew everything choice we'd make ahead of time and how our lives would go, or He wouldn't have been able to prophesy accurately. We know that for sure. He is loving and wise. True love is a choice. True love stems from faith. You have this absurd view that supposedly only the elect were given faith, so you can't get past the fact that we have the capacity to seek out and love and choose God with that faith originating with Him. Your argument just falls apart right there and does not agree with a few key verses. You take all of the awesome power and intelligence of God and you throw it right out the window and says, "Well, God just randomly chose people to be saved and randomly chose the rest to go to hell for His good pleasure." Once again...nice job. You've turned God into a fairly unloving God who hates sinners with a passion, but randomly chooses people to be His playtoy, because He's a big kid that just wants to have some friends in heaven, but everyone else...casualties that don't really matter. Sure, they'll burn in hell forever, but that's a small price to pay for Me to get what I want; friends in heaven. Sorry, but that's sounds like a whole lot of hogwash to me. As I said before, I want nothing to do with that God. My God's much more merciful and loving.


Quote:
Mark 13:20If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.
You did not just quote another prophetic verse that has nothing to do with this conversation again did you?? Yes...you certainly did.

This verse speaks NOTHING of how God chose the elect! That's the argument! HOW DID HE CHOOSE? Stay on topic. We are discussing NOTHING else except HOW God made His choice. Nothing else. All of the other arguments have nothing to do with this debate. It's all about HOW God made His choice. Either He randomly chose to send a few to heaven and the rest to hell, or He gave us the capacity to choose Him, but left it up to us whether we wanted to act on it. That way, we, not Him, condemn ourselves.

If everyone believed the way you did, most people would just assume they're headed to hell and would go do horrific things till they were dead or locked up in jail. Your view would span quite a mass depression if the entire world believed it. The only happy people would be the ones that are pretty sure they're saved... But the ones who weren't sure if they were really saved or not would simply tremble in fear and wouldn't know what to do. My God isn't messed up like that...

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO
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post #48 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-13-2007, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
This is a marvelous verse
Jeremiah 13
23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin
or the leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.

A lost man can no more choose God than a leopard change its spots or a black man his skin color. What would it take for a leopard to change its spots or a black man his skin color? A work of God.
Once again, this is NOT the topic at hand. This speaks nothing of HOW GOD CHOOSES! God is simply expressing how the sin nature is present in all of us, and without the part of us (faith) that God gave all of us, we wouldn't even be able to choose Him. But again, this has NOTHING to do with the topic at hand, which again, leads me to believe, you don't know what we're trying to debate here.

Quote:
Here is another verse for you to interpret Brian, once again, what is the grammatical order?

Acts 13:48

48When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
Once again, this speaks NOTHING of how God chooses! How God chooses is the question at hand, not that there are appointed people. The verse above does not say that a few of the gentiles were appointed. It doesn't say that all of them were appointed. It says that "ALL who were appointed for eternal life believed." Therefore, every one of the Gentiles that heard the message and were glad and honored the word of the Lord very likely are the same that were elect. And why were they elect?

Because God looked ahead, from the beginning, and saw this very situation and how it would happen. He knew that every one of those men, having faith which God put in them that gave them the capacity to believe and choose God, would choose Him. And seeing ahead, knowing they would choose Him out of the faith He put in their hearts, He chose them to be part of the elect. Where you believe that only the elect have faith put in their hearts, I believe everyone had faith put in their heart from birth, because the verse does not specify if it's talking about everyone or just Christians have been given a measure of faith. You're really good at making verses say what you want to with complete disregard for accurate grammar. So, you got your grammar broken down for you. Are you happy? My wife is the grammar nazi; I've learned a thing or two.

You gotta' learn to present just the facts without twisting everything to mean that you're correct. That's not the goal here. You are to lay out an argument, HONESTLY, without twisting anything, and then you let people decide for themselves. You seem to want to slant everything in your direction and make everyone agree with you. Why can't you just accept that someone else believes differently than you and they believe your view is illogical?

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO
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post #49 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-13-2007, 07:04 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by flashstang04
While I have personal opinions on this subject , I will not post here because of the turn this thread has taken.

So I put this forward to you both....

Agree that Christ is the only way to salvation.... (obviously you both do), and call it a day, and vow to work it out in Heaven.

I think we have given non believers enough ammo for one thread with the bickering, don't you?
I've tried to end this two threads ago, and Philly persists. He did, however, offer the question up to everyone else at post #11 in this thread, and I overlooked it or misread it. All I've been trying to get him to do is say, "We obviously have different views and disagree on this topic, and that's ok with me. We agree to disagree." But it would seem he can't accept that someone else doesn't agree with him. I'm a little stupid for continuing to argue the same point over and over again, though. I can't seem to get my point across as to what I'm arguing here, because we can't seem to stay on topic with "how did God choose?" Oh well...

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO
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post #50 of 126 (permalink) Old 11-13-2007, 07:04 AM
 
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Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Arlington, TX
Posts: 2,843
Brian if you ever need a data entry job let me know!

resume normal programming.

Murph

1992 Taurus Half-Breed
whining alternator pulley

Domestic with an Import heart.
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