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post #1 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 01:15 AM Thread Starter
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Free Will & Predestination: Answer this Question

Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son

Psalm 91:14,16
14 "Because he has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him;
I will set him securely on high, because he has known My name.
16 ...And let him see My salvation."


1. We know that God knows the future (ie. prophecy)
2. We know that God knows every choice we're going to make in our lives
3. We know that God is 100% wise, intelligent & logical
4. We know that God chose us to be saved before the foundations of the earth

Answer this one question:

Did God choose whom he would save randomly, or did He choose by His wisdom and foreknowledge of us, knowing that we would choose to accept Him and His salvation and submit ourselves to Him so He could accomplish His purpose through us?

- Brian
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post #2 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 01:25 AM Thread Starter
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I submit that God looked into the future, before the foundation of the earth was laid, and saw every choice every one of us was going to make, and knew our hearts. And in His infinite wisdom and foreknowledge (Rom 8:29), wanting to get His purpose done on earth, He saw whom would accept Him and submit to His will and purpose, and chose them.

He did not choose the people whom He foreknew would not choose Him, because He cannot force someone to love Him or it is no longer true love or free will. It would be ridiculous to choose people that do not want to submit or love Him, because how would He ever get His purpose fulfilled on earth through them? It's not logical.

I submit that God predestined us ahead of time BECAUSE we were going to choose Him (ie. - Psalm 91:14,16). That way, free will and predestination are both fully intact. And all of God's statements about choosing us first are still correct. This is the only way to make the Bible NOT contradict itself. In Psalm 91:14,16 we clearly see that God delivers us BECAUSE we love Him.

Salvation has always been the same throughout history. You either choose to obey God or you choose to rebel against Him. Adam and Eve were given one rule: Obey God and don't eat from the tree, or rebel against God and eat the fruit of the tree. They rebelled and it killed their salvation. But, they obeyed Him after that, and received reconciliation through believing and obeying His command to love Him and not rebel.

Then, jump to Abraham. We're told in Romans that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Abraham obeyed God, even up to the point of killing his own son. That obedience of loving God was counted as righteousness (salvation). Jump to the 10 commandments. The first commandment is how to be saved, "Love the Lord your God with all your mind soul and strength." That means that you will love and obey God (you must love to obey).

Jump to Psalm 91:14,16: God says BECAUSE he has loved Me, I will deliver him (salvation). Because of our love toward Him, he delivers us. But He knew ahead of time that we would accept Him and love Him, and so He chooses us first.

Jump to Jesus: Obey God (Jesus) and accept His free gift of salvation, or rebel against Jesus, deny Him and do not accept salvation. Again, the way to salvation has ALWAYS been the same. Either love God and obey His command to receive reconciliation from sins, or disobey Him and do not accept reconciliation for sins.

That's my position.

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post #3 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 07:37 AM Thread Starter
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If you believe that God chooses us randomly, and does not care if we were going to choose Him in the future or not, answer this question:

Let's say there's a man that loves the Lord with all of his heart. You're saying that even though this man has chosen to love the Lord with all his heart and has accepted Jesus, that unless God CHOOSES this guy, he's never going to be saved, right?

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post #4 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by BrianC
I submit that God predestined us ahead of time BECAUSE we were going to choose Him (ie. - Psalm 91:14,16). That way, free will and predestination are both fully intact. And all of God's statements about choosing us first are still correct. This is the only way to make the Bible NOT contradict itself. In Psalm 91:14,16 we clearly see that God delivers us BECAUSE we love Him.
I think the only way we are capable of loving the One True God is if we are predestined. We can't even seek Him unless He gives us that much. So I put forth that unless he chooses to give us the "goods" in our makeup, we are just another "pot"... how does that contradict? I mean maybe the free will part comes in with how much of our lives we are willing to give up, or how much time we chose to spend on our prayers, worship, praise, etc.
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post #5 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
Romans 8:29
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son

Psalm 91:14,16
14 "Because he has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him;
I will set him securely on high, because he has known My name.
16 ...And let him see My salvation."


1. We know that God knows the future (ie. prophecy)
2. We know that God knows every choice we're going to make in our lives
3. We know that God is 100% wise, intelligent & logical
4. We know that God chose us to be saved before the foundations of the earth

Answer this one question:

Did God choose whom he would save randomly, or did He choose by His wisdom and foreknowledge of us, knowing that we would choose to accept Him and His salvation and submit ourselves to Him so He could accomplish His purpose through us?



Also fitting in with this is Eph 1:5

"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind of intention of His will."

Also shortly after that:

Eph 1:11

"also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.

This leads one to think that while there is a predestination of the sort, God is above allowing it to conflict with our free will.

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post #6 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 10:07 AM
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so some of you think that god made me click this thread?
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post #7 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 10:13 AM
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I think you are missing the point...

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post #8 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 11:19 AM
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Don't bring in raising the dead in regard to Lazarus. That's not salvation. Stop resorting to other context completely trying to support your ever sinking view. Stay on topic and stop rehashing the God causation. I've already agreed with you there many times. But you keep having to rehash it so you don't have to answer the question I keep asking.
It is not about salvation, but God gives us in John 5:21 a direct parallel to Lazarus with His work in raising the spiritually dead. Notice, "JUST AS" and "EVEN SO"

John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.


You have your theories, I have the Word of God, I will stick with the Word of God.
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post #9 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 02:06 PM Thread Starter
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I think the only way we are capable of loving the One True God is if we are predestined. We can't even seek Him unless He gives us that much. So I put forth that unless he chooses to give us the "goods" in our makeup, we are just another "pot"... how does that contradict? I mean maybe the free will part comes in with how much of our lives we are willing to give up, or how much time we chose to spend on our prayers, worship, praise, etc.
You are correct in saying that we do not have the capacity to seek, believe in or love God, due to the sin nature. God says He gives everyone a measure of faith. That faith is what gives us the ability to seek, love and believe in God. So, God is responsible for the first move here. God also puts out the call to us, because we are told that without the call, we would not know that we needed to accept Christ.

So, God is ultimately responsible, because we are incapable in and of ourselves in our sin nature to seek, love and believe in Him.

With that said, though, that is not the question at hand here. The question is, did God choose us randomly, or did He look ahead in His wisdom and foreknowledge and see whom would have a heart to choose Him and whom would not have a heart to choose Him, and because of that, choose the people that would choose Him?

The logic breaks down when you say that our choosing Him has nothing to do with His decision to choose us first, in advance, before the foundation of the world. We know He knew us back then, in advance, and chose us then. So, it all comes down to, is God logical and wise when considering who to choose, or is He completely random in His selection?

And if He is random in His selection, and someone wants to love and accept Him, does He turn down that person simply because they were not chosen ahead of time? No logic in this.

And if randomality were the case in selection, may as well just create everyone all at the same time, then immediately select those you are going to force to love you, and damn those whom you do not force to love you, and be done with it all.

See the inconsistency here?

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post #10 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 02:09 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Phillystang
It is not about salvation, but God gives us in John 5:21 a direct parallel to Lazarus with His work in raising the spiritually dead. Notice, "JUST AS" and "EVEN SO"

John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.


You have your theories, I have the Word of God, I will stick with the Word of God.
Now that's just low. It's not a theory. It's the Word of God. You still cannot explain Psalm 91:14-16 where God says BECAUSE he loved Me, I will deliver Him. That's God's words, not mine. Take it up with Him. This is not a theory. Your logic breaks down quite heavily if God is random.

Is God random in His selection? If someone loves the Lord and is not chosen ahead of time, does God reject that person? It would appear so in your theory.

To say what you said about "you have the Word of God" is extremely arrogant. That says, "I have the absolute only view of the scriptures and it is impossible to interpret this any other way." Well, I've just shown you that you are viewing it a completely different way than I am, and that my way actually agrees with all scriptures, even Psalm 91:14, yet you choose to conveniently skip that part because it kills your "theory."

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post #11 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 02:10 PM Thread Starter
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so some of you think that god made me click this thread?
Yeah, that's just absurd. According to Phillystang, God did make you click this thread, because God makes you do everything and you have no free will. Take it up with him, though, because he's the one that said we have no free will. lol

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post #12 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 02:16 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by flashstang04
Also fitting in with this is Eph 1:5

"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind of intention of His will."

Also shortly after that:

Eph 1:11

"also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will.

This leads one to think that while there is a predestination of the sort, God is above allowing it to conflict with our free will.
Exactly. You just made my point with that last statement. God is ABOVE allowing predestination to conflict with our free will.

If that is true, then all He's got to do is look into the future and know us to the extent that He can tell, "Alright, this person was given faith just like everyone else, so they have the capacity to believe, because of that faith I gave them. I know already that this person has a heart to choose me and will do so when I am presented to them. They also will submit to me and let me work through them. Therefore, because they will love me, I will choose them and predestin them to be conformed to the likeness of Jesus. This does not conflict with free will at all. And it cooperates with both verses: Psalm 91:14-16 and Romans 8:29.

If it were true that God randomly chooses according to His "good pleasure," then that could completely kill free will. True love requires that we choose to love. Love is not forced. True love is a choice you make, not something you "fall into" like the world says. For God to be a God of true love, He would require true love back, which requires free will to make a choice.

How else do you make sense of Psalm 91:14 that says, "Because he loved me, I will deliver him...and show him My salvation?"

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post #13 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 02:18 PM
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Yeah, that's just absurd. According to Phillystang, God did make you click this thread, because God makes you do everything and you have no free will. Take it up with him, though, because he's the one that said we have no free will. lol
If we have free will.... the real thing.... shouldn't we be capable of losing our salvation?
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post #14 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 02:27 PM Thread Starter
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If we have free will.... the real thing.... shouldn't we be capable of losing our salvation?
No, because we are choosing to give up damnation once and for all.

Let's say that you lived in a country where you were allowed to change your name once. You go and change your last name to Cook. They do not allow you to ever change it again. So, you chose to accept the last name Cook, knowing that you would never have a choice to change it again. Same with salvation; you choose to give up your right to choose hell by choosing heaven. It's one or the other...pretty simple.

Jesus said, "When you believe in me, I GIVE you eternal life." (present tense) He also said, "If you believe in me, you will NEVER die." (spiritual death, of course)

If you could lose your salvation, then those two statements are lies by God Himself. Eternal life is eternal, and is present tense. If it can be taken away, then it was never eternal to begin with, and therefore, Jesus is a liar if you can lose it. If you can die spiritual after believing in Christ, and end up going to hell, then again, Jesus is a liar. It's impossible for God to lie, and that means losing your salvation is impossible in order for God's Word to be eternally perfect and never broken.

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post #15 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 02:30 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Phillystang
It is not about salvation, but God gives us in John 5:21 a direct parallel to Lazarus with His work in raising the spiritually dead. Notice, "JUST AS" and "EVEN SO"

John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.


You have your theories, I have the Word of God, I will stick with the Word of God.
So, would Jesus not be pleased to give life to a person that was not chosen? Would Jesus not be pleased to give life to anyone at all? Let's say someone hates His guts and spits on His cross and what He did for us and wants nothing to do with Him. Would Jesus not be pleased to give this guy salvation?

Sorry, but this verse you've used is pointless in this conversation. It speaks nothing of how God selects people. It only says that Jesus is pleased to give life to people. Nothing more...

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post #16 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 02:45 PM
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I think you are missing the point...
No my friend, I get the point. It's some of you that don't seem to get it.






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post #17 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 03:15 PM
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And if He is random in His selection, and someone wants to love and accept Him, does He turn down that person simply because they were not chosen ahead of time? No logic in this.
This is an impossibilty, unless you want to discard the first chapter of Romans. No one seeks God (Romans 3:11). In order for someone to come to God, God first must enable him (John 6:65). Once again, do we follow the wisdom of man or let God's Word be true?

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Originally Posted by BrianC
And if randomality were the case in selection, may as well just create everyone all at the same time, then immediately select those you are going to force to love you, and damn those whom you do not force to love you, and be done with it all.

See the inconsistency here?
Ever read Romans 9?
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.


Before they were born Brian, there actions had nothing to do with it. Before they were born God purposed it before they had done good or bad.
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post #18 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 03:20 PM
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Originally Posted by BrianC
Jump to the 10 commandments. The first commandment is how to be saved, "Love the Lord your God with all your mind soul and strength." That means that you will love and obey God (you must love to obey).
No one will be saved then because no one has kept this commandment (if this were truly how we are to be saved).
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post #19 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 03:24 PM
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If you believe that God chooses us randomly, and does not care if we were going to choose Him in the future or not, answer this question:

Let's say there's a man that loves the Lord with all of his heart. You're saying that even though this man has chosen to love the Lord with all his heart and has accepted Jesus, that unless God CHOOSES this guy, he's never going to be saved, right?
Once again, this scenario is impossible. An unregenerated man will not choose to love the Lord with all his heart, he is depraved and does wicked continuously. There is none good.

It is the same amount impossible as a dead man coming to life of his own power. There must be an outside force that brings the life. A dead man cannot say, I think I will choose life. He's dead!!!
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post #20 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Fastback
I think the only way we are capable of loving the One True God is if we are predestined. We can't even seek Him unless He gives us that much. So I put forth that unless he chooses to give us the "goods" in our makeup, we are just another "pot"... how does that contradict? I mean maybe the free will part comes in with how much of our lives we are willing to give up, or how much time we chose to spend on our prayers, worship, praise, etc.
Fastback is on to something here.

Our will is just as free as our nature dictates us to act. If we have a sin nature then by necessity our will will be to do evil continuously, as the Bible says.

If our nature has been changed by God throught the new birth, our wills will be changed to love the things of God and to hate sin.
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post #21 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 03:34 PM
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With that said, though, that is not the question at hand here. The question is, did God choose us randomly, or did He look ahead in His wisdom and foreknowledge and see whom would have a heart to choose Him and whom would not have a heart to choose Him, and because of that, choose the people that would choose Him?

The logic breaks down when you say that our choosing Him has nothing to do with His decision to choose us first, in advance, before the foundation of the world. We know He knew us back then, in advance, and chose us then. So, it all comes down to, is God logical and wise when considering who to choose, or is He completely random in His selection?
Why do you have the color eyes you have? Is it because God created you with that color eye ?

or...

is it because God looked through the future to see what the biological processes would come up with and saw that your eye color would be what it is, with that foreknowledge of what would happen, that's how God determines eye color, according to his "foreknowledge"?


do you see how ridiculous this sounds? Is God sovereign over eye color? Is He sovereign over salvation?

With your same logic, you could complain that it is illogical for God to have just randomly given a person brown eyes if that decision wasn't based on what He foresaw in the biological processes.
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post #22 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 03:42 PM Thread Starter
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This is an impossibilty, unless you want to discard the first chapter of Romans. No one seeks God (Romans 3:11). In order for someone to come to God, God first must enable him (John 6:65). Once again, do we follow the wisdom of man or let God's Word be true?
No, remember...God says he gives everyone a measure of faith. You said this "everyone" refers only to Christians. The context does not indicate as such, therefore, it can easily mean that everyone is given an equal measure of faith, which is the mechanism by which we seek, desire, love and accept God, and receive salvation. ANYONE can possess faith, but it is their choice whether to act upon it or choose to rebel against it.

God says, "MANY are called, but few are chosen."

If many are called but few are chosen, why call "many" when you know exactly who you're going to choose? Answer: many are called, because God wants to give everyone a chance to act upon free will and choose Him through the mechanism of faith HE put in us first. But if God chose us randomly, then there's no reason to call ANYONE except the chosen. Again, this doesn't work with your theory.

Quote:
Ever read Romans 9?
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
I've said it once to you, and I will say it again. Compassion and mercy are not "salvation" and "election." Election is spoken of in verses 10-13, but then the subject matter changes and it says, "Is God unjust? Not at all." And it goes on to explain mercy and compassion, but not election and salvation.

But once again, you've missed the point. The question is not who is responsible for our salvation. We know God is. The question is, HOW DOES GOD CHOOSE?

Nothing in those verses you just listed tells HOW God chooses. God knew ahead of time that Pharoah would never choose Him. Therefore, He knew that when He started destroying Pharoah's country, Pharoah would harden his heart toward Him. Pretty simple.

With Esau and Jacob, God knew ahead of time that Esau would not choose God and would be rebellious against Him. He also knew that Jacob would be submissive and love Him. Therefore, in His foreknowledge, He prophecies that the older son would serve the younger. Again, this is all easily explained if you understand that God knew the future and chose according to His knowledge of the future and the hearts of those that would accept or reject Him. It's REALLY simple, and it's the only way to keep free will and predestination intact and operational with one another in balance, and it's the only way to explain our being here instead of God just automatically throwing everyone but the elect into hell.

Quote:
Before they were born Brian, there actions had nothing to do with it. Before they were born God purposed it before they had done good or bad.
I KNOW! How many times do I have to say it? We are told in Romans that God FOREKNEW those and predestined them to be conformed to the image of His Son. FOREKNEW! How do you "know" someone when they haven't been born yet? You look into the future and you see when they're born and view their life as it happens in the future.

You completely left out the fact that God could see the future when you made the statement "their actions had nothing to do with election before they were born."

You're saying that God's not smart enough to look into the future and choose the people that will actually accept Him and submit to Him in order to allow Him to work through them for His purpose. Again, this is completely illogical. For God to have every ounce of knowledge of the future and know if we will choose Him or not with the faith He provided us to be able to seek and choose Him when He calls is and then completely disregard it and just choose randomly makes no sense. None whatsoever. God's not that stupid...

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post #23 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Phillystang
Why do you have the color eyes you have? Is it because God created you with that color eye ?

or...

is it because God looked through the future to see what the biological processes would come up with and saw that your eye color would be what it is, with that foreknowledge of what would happen, that's how God determines eye color, according to his "foreknowledge"?


do you see how ridiculous this sounds? Is God sovereign over eye color? Is He sovereign over salvation?

With your same logic, you could complain that it is illogical for God to have just randomly given a person brown eyes if that decision wasn't based on what He foresaw in the biological processes.
genetics a.k.a.."science" determines what eye color you have, along with a little statistics and probability
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post #24 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 03:44 PM Thread Starter
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Once again, this scenario is impossible. An unregenerated man will not choose to love the Lord with all his heart, he is depraved and does wicked continuously. There is none good.

It is the same amount impossible as a dead man coming to life of his own power. There must be an outside force that brings the life. A dead man cannot say, I think I will choose life. He's dead!!!
Again, you completely disregard scripture because you assume you know exactly what a specific verse is saying. We are told that everyone is given a measure of faith by God. Faith is the mechanism by which one comes to God. In your theory, it is impossible for God to have given everyone a measure of faith, because if some choose Him via that faith He put in them, He would have to deny them upon grounds that He did not first choose them. I mean, really...how much sense does that make? You have to restrict scripture to make your theory work, and you must blatantly disregard Psalm 91:14 that says because we loved Him, he delivered us. You keep completely missing my point...

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post #25 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
Now that's just low. It's not a theory. It's the Word of God. You still cannot explain Psalm 91:14-16 where God says BECAUSE he loved Me, I will deliver Him. That's God's words, not mine. Take it up with Him. This is not a theory. Your logic breaks down quite heavily if God is random.
Psalm 91: 14-16
Why does he love God though, is it something in his sin nature that causes this? Or something God enables him to do?

What do the Scriptures say Brian? Who causes here, man or God?

Look at Exodus 20:24
Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
Is God random in His selection? If someone loves the Lord and is not chosen ahead of time, does God reject that person? It would appear so in your theory.
Once again for the 100th time, this is an impossibility. It would be as possible as a dead man helping to dig the hole for his casket. If he is dead in sins, he will not love the Lord. It is impossible.

Look at Matthew 19:25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."


Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
To say what you said about "you have the Word of God" is extremely arrogant. That says, "I have the absolute only view of the scriptures and it is impossible to interpret this any other way." Well, I've just shown you that you are viewing it a completely different way than I am, and that my way actually agrees with all scriptures, even Psalm 91:14, yet you choose to conveniently skip that part because it kills your "theory."
Essentially you are saying the same thing- "my way actually agrees with all scriptures"

So is it about arrogance or about having strong conviction?
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post #26 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 03:47 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ClockwrkOrangeS4
genetics a.k.a.."science" determines what eye color you have, along with a little statistics and probability
I agree. Genetics determines this. Health also determines this. I was born with blue eyes and blond hair, yet when I was 7 yrs old, my hair turned brown and my eyes turned hazel (green/blue). You can literally see the green mucus in my eyes that makes them blue/green hazel. It causes an astigmatism in my eye by making the lense bow outward like a football. If I were to get the mucus out somehow, the lense would not bow, I could see clearly again, and I would have blue eyes again. My mom's eyes were blue when she was born. About age 7, her eyes turned brown somehow. But she still has a faith blue ring around the outside of her iris. Pretty strange...

- Brian
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post #27 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 04:00 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
Psalm 91: 14-16
Why does he love God though, is it something in his sin nature that causes this? Or something God enables him to do?

What do the Scriptures say Brian? Who causes here, man or God?
Again, you're COMPLETELY missing the point. I've already said that GOD gives us the ability to love Him by giving us a measure of faith. The faith is the means by which we are saved. It is out choice, though, to act upon the faith.

If God's faith He gives to us is the mechanism by which we love Him and are saved, then He is first responsible for our salvation by giving us the ability to love Him, and then we are secondly responsible because we must choose to act upon this faith. IT IS A CHOICE. Psalm 91:14 says it clearly. You keep putting words in my mouth by saying that I'm claiming humans are completely responsible for their salvation. They are not. God is first responsible, because He gave us the mechanism of faith in order to have the capacity to seek and love Him. Without it, we would not have chosen Him, period.

If your view is true, why bother going throughout time?? Just choose the chosen, and cast the rest into hell! There IS NO PURPOSE for this earth if your view is true. It's just some sick game that God puts us through for His pleasure of watching people suffer and choosing those He wants to save from suffering and watch the others burn in hell. Yeah...that's real logical. Sounds like a loving and just God to me.

Quote:
Look at Exodus 20:24
Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you.
This has nothing to do with salvation! Why do you insist on making scriptures say what you want them to say? This has nothing to do with salvation...

Quote:
Once again for the 100th time, this is an impossibility. It would be as possible as a dead man helping to dig the hole for his casket. If he is dead in sins, he will not love the Lord. It is impossible.
Once again, COMPLETELY missing the point. You're impossible. I've seen some prideful people, but you take the cake. You cannot accept that there could be another possible interpretation out there. What I find more amazing is that my interpretation fits scripture better, with no contradictions, and yet you still refuse to see it. Wow... I can't fight pride. Sorry... Not my job, and it's impossible anyway...

Quote:
Look at Matthew 19:25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

26Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Once again...God put the faith there for us to love God and be saved. Period. God is responsible. But God puts faith in everyone, and allows them to choose. No offense, but I don't want to serve your God. He's a vial, unfair, unjust God whom delights in a meaningless world and casting people into hell without giving them a choice in the matter at all.

Quote:
Essentially you are saying the same thing- "my way actually agrees with all scriptures"

So is it about arrogance or about having strong conviction?
I've already said that I do not claim to have the 100% truth, and it is possible that I am incorrect, because there could be something I haven't considered or verses I have not considered that solidify this teaching.

Then I also say that my interpretation agrees 100% with scripture, because it does. Where my interpretation has no problem with Psalm 91:14-16, yours does.

Let's look at it one more time, just for repitition sake.

Psalm 91:14,16
14 "Because he has loved Me, therefore I will deliver him;
16...And let him see My salvation."

You want "cause" here? There's your cause: BECAUSE he has loved me. BECAUSE of that, I WILL DELIVER HIM.

Your theory does not allow for this. I have already said, God is the one that puts the faith there so that we can believe. So God is ultimately respondible for our ability to believe. God also puts the call out there for us too, which is required. God is doubly responsible for our salvation. But it still comes down to whether we choose to act on faith or not by accepting or rejecting Him. This verse proves it.

In your theory, there is no room for true love, because everyone is forced to love the Lord, or forced to go to hell. Nice job... You've turned God into a horrible, injust God. Sounds like a fun day in Heaven with that guy...

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO
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post #28 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by BrianC
Again, you completely disregard scripture because you assume you know exactly what a specific verse is saying.
I compare Scripture with Scripture to see what it is saying. I avoid taking verses out of context just to try and make a point. If a book is addressed to Brothers, I keep it in the context of an address to Christians. If 99 verses strongly state one doctrine clearly, and 1 verse seems to say the opposite, I do not cling to that 1 verse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
We are told that everyone is given a measure of faith by God.
Once again, this is found in a book written to beleivers regarding their ministrial roles in the church. Some have higher appearing rolls and some less noble. Along with taking this out of the context of beleivers, you imply that this is an equal measure of faith too, reading in the word "equal" into the text.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
Faith is the mechanism by which one comes to God.
Yes, faith which is given from God.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
In your theory, it is impossible for God to have given everyone a measure of faith, because if some choose Him via that faith He put in them, He would have to deny them upon grounds that He did not first choose them.
Not impossible, just not what He purposed according to His will.

Jesus often says "Ye of litle faith", if the disciples had such little faith, how much faith do you think the pagans that were sacrificing their babies to Molech had?

Instances of faithlessness in the Scriptures

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksea...thless&x=0&y=0

A few: Psalm 101:3
I will set before my eyes no vile thing. The deeds of faithless men I hate; they will not cling to me.

Psalm 119:158
I look on the faithless with loathing, for they do not obey your word.




Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
I mean, really...how much sense does that make? You have to restrict scripture to make your theory work, and you must blatantly disregard Psalm 91:14 that says because we loved Him, he delivered us.
My posts have been filled with Scriptures, not sure what you are talking about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
You keep completely missing my point...
I see the point you are trying top make, like I said, I had the same view growing up. It was not founded in Scriptures though, it was founded in what seemed fait to me. Where in the Scriptures does it say that men left to themselves have the ability of their own free will to come to God or to seek God?
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post #29 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 04:06 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Phillystang
Fastback is on to something here.

Our will is just as free as our nature dictates us to act. If we have a sin nature then by necessity our will will be to do evil continuously, as the Bible says.

If our nature has been changed by God throught the new birth, our wills will be changed to love the things of God and to hate sin.
No, our nature is changed only AFTER we are born again, not before. We are still of the sin nature BEFORE we are born again. Therefore, we are still in the sin nature when we make the choice to love God and accept salvation and being born again in the spirit.

Why else would Jesus tell people to be born again and to accept Him? What's the purpose if God's already picked them out and will choose them? Makes no sense! You've completely killed the entire reason for life itself. Again, this makes God a cruel ruler of whom I do not want to serve. My God loves everyone and chose those who would choose Him. He did so because He gave all the capacity to love Him through faith if they so chose. He put out the call to many, but only chose a few that would actually choose Him back via the faith He put in them. The others chose to be hardhearted toward the faith and disregard it and rebel against God. That's their choice. They are choosing to take responsibility for their sins and punishment in hell. My God gave them a chance and wishes that everyone will come to salvation, but knows that not all will.

Your God, though...it is impossible for your God to wish that everyone would be saved, because He's already forced many to burn in hell and chosen others to be saved. It is not possible that He would want everyone to come to the knowledge of God and be saved. If so, He would've simply forced everyone to do so. You know exactly the verse I'm talking about:

1 Timothy 2:3-5
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

If your God desired that all men be saved, then your God would've simply chosen everyone, right?

Oooooohhhhh..... How's your God going to get out of this one?

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO
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post #30 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
No offense, but I don't want to serve your God. He's a vial, unfair, unjust God whom delights in a meaningless world and casting people into hell without giving them a choice in the matter at all.
I pray that you will rethink that statement and keep studying on this topic.
I am glad that Paul went through the work of addressing this very issue (takes the pressure off of me)

Romans 9:11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand:


BrianC might say- "not fair God, you did not give Esau a choice"

12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

BrianC might say- "unfair God, Esau is just a baby, he might decide to choose you someday, give him a chance"

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust?

BrianC might say- "this particular God is unjust, but my God is different and not like that"

Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."


BrianC might say- "don't you mean you will have mercy on everyone God? and compassion on everyone?"

[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

BrianC might say- "yes it does Paul, some people might desire God but you are saying it doesn't amtter about man's desire or effort, not fair Paul, everyone is given equal measure of faith"

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g]

BrianC might say- "not fair God, you didn't give Pharaoh a choice in the matter"

18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

BrianC might say- "Don't you mean those whom He sees don't accept Him, come on Paul, isn't that what you mean? God can only have mercy on those that choose Him, that's what is most logical to me"

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

BrianC might say- "Who resists His will? This is not my God who doesn't give someone a say in the matter. "


20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h]


BrianC might say- "Yes God, I demand to know why you choose randomly and not according to man's decision"


21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?


BrianC might say- "God's making must first be allowed by man deciding to accept Him, that is most logical rather than randomly making lumps for common use"


22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"[i] 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[j]

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."[k]

29It is just as Isaiah said previously:
"Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah."[l]
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post #31 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 04:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
1 Timothy 2:3-5
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

If your God desired that all men be saved, then your God would've simply chosen everyone, right?

Oooooohhhhh..... How's your God going to get out of this one?
Perhaps you have not studied the different types of God's wills

http://www.gotquestions.org/Gods-will.html
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post #32 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 04:30 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
I compare Scripture with Scripture to see what it is saying. I avoid taking verses out of context just to try and make a point. If a book is addressed to Brothers, I keep it in the context of an address to Christians. If 99 verses strongly state one doctrine clearly, and 1 verse seems to say the opposite, I do not cling to that 1 verse.
So, if I address a letter to you, Phillystang and your brothers at the church, and in that letter I say, "I, God, give a measure of faith to everyone," you are going to assume I'm talking about just you and your church? Well, what about other Christians? What about the rest of the world? I DID NOT indicate whom I was referring to. I didn't say, "I give all CHRISTIANS a measure of faith." No, I said, "I give everyone a measure of faith."

You are taking this out of context just because it's addressed to Christians. The book of Hebrews is addressed to the Hebrews. Yet it talks about Jews, Christians and the unsaved and saved Gentiles. Gee, what happened to addressing something to JUST the Hebrews and keeping in that context?

Sorry, but to say that just because a letter is addressed to someone that the context of that message CANNOT refer to anyone else but them is ridiculous. Again, you're choosing to see it that way to support your theory...

Quote:
Once again, this is found in a book written to beleivers regarding their ministrial roles in the church. Some have higher appearing rolls and some less noble. Along with taking this out of the context of beleivers, you imply that this is an equal measure of faith too, reading in the word "equal" into the text.
The word equal does not have to be added to the text. Faith PERIOD is mentioned. Faith is the mechanism by which we are saved, and it is of God, not us. And nowhere in this text does it indicate that God is ONLY referring to believers. You have nothing to stand on with this claim.

Quote:
Yes, faith which is given from God.
Yep, which I've said a million times, yet somehow you never quite seem to understand that I've said it, so you repeat yourself as if I never said it...
Quote:
Not impossible, just not what He purposed according to His will.
No, it is YOUR OPINION that He didn't give everyone a measure of faith. It is the way YOU read that verse because of your pre-set belief. No where in that scripture or book does it indicate that ALL of the statements there are directed squarely at believers. Pleanty of times in pleanty of books, all men, as a whole, are clearly depicted in teachings, even when the letter is addressed to brothers. In fact, every letter, basically, is addressed to believers. It's a requirement by the post office. lol So, are you saying that Paul has to make everything in his letter about believers, and he cannot speak at all about non-believers in his letters? Again...this makes NO sense.

Quote:
Jesus often says "Ye of litle faith", if the disciples had such little faith, how much faith do you think the pagans that were sacrificing their babies to Molech had?
Let's see, you have Christ in your heart, because you have been born again, and so you should have strong faith, right? Could you go walk on water right now? No, you couldn't. Yet Peter, who was included in Jesus' statement about "Ye of little faith," walked on water briefly. What does that say about your faith? The point is that God's measure of faith He gives to everyone doesn't have to be hardly any measure at all. Even Jesus said, "If you had faith the size of a mustard seed, you would tell this tree to get up and move, and it would do so." Therefore, none of us is given very much faith at all. But all it takes is just a very small amount to do amazing things. And only this little tiny bit of faith is necessary for us to seek God. God's faith, though....it's amazing. Jesus had 100% faith. Complete faith in God. When we're born again, we are supposed to train ourselves to totally rely on Jesus and connect with HIS faith, and walk in it. His faith is perfect. Our's is always minute. We must rely on Him and His faith at all times for all things.

Quote:
Instances of faithlessness in the Scriptures

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksea...thless&x=0&y=0

A few: Psalm 101:3
I will set before my eyes no vile thing. The deeds of faithless men I hate; they will not cling to me.

Psalm 119:158
I look on the faithless with loathing, for they do not obey your word.
You can have faith and not operate in it. Remember when James talks about dead faith? That's faithlessness. Faith that is dead is faith that does not do works. If you have faith, you will use it to do good works. Dead faith, though, is useless. I know many Christians that have dead faith and no longer serve the Lord. They are "faithless." They no longer operate in faith, so they no longer obey God like they used to.

Quote:
My posts have been filled with Scriptures, not sure what you are talking about?
Yes, filled with tons of scriptures, many of which speak nothing of salvation or election or how God chooses, and therefore, off topic and of no use. And you will not cite Psalm 91:14 and explain that one. It has a cause right there. Yes, God gave us the capacity to love Him, but He says, "BECAUSE he loved Me, I will deliver him." BECAUSE. CAUSE.

Your inability to see free will destroys the meaning of life completely, and the necessity of even being here in the flesh. It's pointless.


Quote:
I see the point you are trying top make, like I said, I had the same view growing up. It was not founded in Scriptures though, it was founded in what seemed fait to me. Where in the Scriptures does it say that men left to themselves have the ability of their own free will to come to God or to seek God?
If you had my viewpoint in the past, I seriously doubt you use the verses the way I do and have the same reasoning for it. If you did understand it to the degree I do, then you would see that your argument is not possible, because it destroys the framework of why we are here on earth at all.

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post #33 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 04:36 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Phillystang
Perhaps you have not studied the different types of God's wills

http://www.gotquestions.org/Gods-will.html
Perhaps you don't have an answer, so you cite someone else's work. I don't have to cite someone else's work, because the Bible tells me right there that it's God's DESIRE that all men be saved... If your God really desired that, He'd save them all. Sorry...your God makes no sense...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillystang
I pray that you will rethink that statement and keep studying on this topic.
I am glad that Paul went through the work of addressing this very issue (takes the pressure off of me)

Romans 9:11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand:


BrianC might say- "not fair God, you did not give Esau a choice"

12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]

BrianC might say- "unfair God, Esau is just a baby, he might decide to choose you someday, give him a chance"

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust?

BrianC might say- "this particular God is unjust, but my God is different and not like that"

Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."


BrianC might say- "don't you mean you will have mercy on everyone God? and compassion on everyone?"

[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

BrianC might say- "yes it does Paul, some people might desire God but you are saying it doesn't amtter about man's desire or effort, not fair Paul, everyone is given equal measure of faith"

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g]

BrianC might say- "not fair God, you didn't give Pharaoh a choice in the matter"

18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

BrianC might say- "Don't you mean those whom He sees don't accept Him, come on Paul, isn't that what you mean? God can only have mercy on those that choose Him, that's what is most logical to me"

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

BrianC might say- "Who resists His will? This is not my God who doesn't give someone a say in the matter. "


20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h]


BrianC might say- "Yes God, I demand to know why you choose randomly and not according to man's decision"


21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?


BrianC might say- "God's making must first be allowed by man deciding to accept Him, that is most logical rather than randomly making lumps for common use"


22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"[i] 26and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "[j]

27Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
"Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality."[k]

29It is just as Isaiah said previously:
"Unless the Lord Almighty
had left us descendants,
we would have become like Sodom,
we would have been like Gomorrah."[l]
DO NOT put words in my mouth. You have completely misrepresented my argument and position HORRIBLY. Not ONCE have I said, "Not fair. God didn't give Esau a choice" or anything like that. That is absurd. What I said makes far more sense. What I said is that God KNEW Esau's heart and his future and every choice he would ever make, and God KNEW Esau would always rebel against God. So God simply did not choose Esau. As for Jacob, God KNEW he would submit ahead of time. So He chose him. It's that simple. God knows our hearts.

Don't ever EVER answer arguments assuming I would answer them that way. Just from the way you answered for me, it is blatantly obvious that you have no clue what I've been expressing as my belief this entire time.

I'm done with this conversation. I cannot fight pride and stubbornness. You have your opinion, and if anyone refuses to conform to it, they don't have the perfect knowledge you do. I will not discuss this particular topic with you anymore. I don't appreciate anyone putting words in my mouth or supposing that they know what I believe when they obviously have no clue what I believe from the responses given. Please refrain from ever assuming how I would answer ever again. All of your supposed answers for me were very incorrect.

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO
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post #34 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 04:45 PM
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Just an old testament observation..... they used animal sacrifices.....while still in a sin state....to cover their sin. Symbolic of a coming savior that would cover ALL sins.

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post #35 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 04:52 PM
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If your God really desired that, He'd save them all.
Wouldn't yours too? But are all saved?

I didn't put words in your mouth, I said MIGHT say, which is based upon all your statements thus far. If I get the time, I could go to your past responses and find correlating answers that relate with what I used in the MIGHT say responses.

Sorry that this discussion was too intense for you.
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post #36 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 04:56 PM
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Perhaps you don't have an answer, so you cite someone else's work. I don't have to cite someone else's work, because the Bible tells me right there that it's God's DESIRE that all men be saved... If your God really desired that, He'd save them all. Sorry...your God makes no sense...
You have not studied the types of wills and so I gave you a resource. I am short on time before class to delve into this subject when the work is readily available.
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post #37 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 08:37 PM
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No, our nature is changed only AFTER we are born again, not before. We are still of the sin nature BEFORE we are born again. Therefore, we are still in the sin nature when we make the choice to love God and accept salvation and being born again in the spirit.
Acts 16:14
One of those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message.

Before Lydia "chose" Christ, God opened her heart. Do you still doubt the order here? You will probably dismiss this along with the countless others though.
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post #38 of 38 (permalink) Old 11-07-2007, 08:48 PM
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 674
The outcome of this discussion saddens me. I feel like I have sewn discord among brothers. The question free will or predestined is a theological cycle. It has divided entire Christian groups into various denominations. I love these type questions because it gives us all an opportunity to "try on" different ideas in our search for truth.

I don't know about you guys but I am not 100% with my denomination...but it is the closest thing I can relate to. I want to understand why and how other denominations justify their peculiar beliefs that are in opposition to mine.... and if I become convinced...cool.

As far as free will or predestined. We are both. Has to be. God knew us and chose to make us, knowing how we would be. We are absolutely incapable of surprising Him. If I steal a car in 2007, God knew I would before time even started. Knowing that, He still chose to make me just the way He did. He therefore not only allowed it to happen, He chose to let it happen against His will. *Supernaturally
Same is true with angels. God knew before He breathed life into Satan that Satan would be evil. He chose to let that happen against His will. *Supernaturally

Why would God choose to let things happen against His own will?

My guess is because it suits His Purpose. *Supernaturally

Jesus begged God to take the cup from him. But if it is your will father then your will not mine. Right? Because it suits God's purpose. *Supernaturally

Whether you agree or not, it must be said that we can only think in human terms with logic foolish to God. We cannot even fathom the purposes of God. We have a glimpse and nothing more. It is entirely possible to waste away arguing things in the flesh that have supernatural logic....a type of logic we do not possess....

I do believe I just pulled the Supernatural Card! Sorry atheists, come again. LOL
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