Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
The problem is people making an assumption that they are "saved".
Even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance, either of his present justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. Concerning his present state, he wrote, "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified. It is the Lord who judges me" (1 Cor. 4:4). Concerning his remaining life, Paul was frank in admitting that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). Of course, for a spiritual giant such as Paul, it would be quite unexpected and out of character for him to fall from God’s grace.
"Are you saved?" asks the Fundamentalist. The Catholic should reply: "As the Bible says, I am already saved
Rom. 8:24 For in hope we were saved. Now hope that sees for itself is not hope. For who hopes for what one sees?
Eph. 2:5–8 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved), raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
but I’m also being saved
Cor. 2:15 For we are the aroma of Christ for God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing,
Phil. 2:12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
and I have the hope that I will be saved
Rom. 5:9–10 How much more then, since we are now justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath. Indeed, if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, how much more, once reconciled, will we be saved by his life.
Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."
BrianC, if it is not in a Catholic document it needs something like below to be quotable as "Catholics Believe"
NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004
Sorry, missed your post.
It's all about how you interpret the verses you just quoted. And if you want to make Jesus a liar, that's fine. Jesus says WHEN you believe in him (that instant) you have eternal life (that instant), and He said if you believe in me, you will NEVER die (spiritually). So, no, it's impossible to lose your salvation. Now, let's interpret your scriptures a different way.
Unbelief is a strong oppressor among people. If you are unsure in your faith after you're saved, it's because you are believing lies or don't understand the truth fully, and so you have a fear about what is to come. Just like with salvation and the possibility of losing it. If you think you can lose it, you will think you have the power to keep it through works. So, are you saying Christ doesn't have the power to fully save you? Or, are you saying that you're more powerful than Christ that you can cause your salvation to be lost? Because Pual & Christ both said that it's impossible to snatch you from the Father's hand or to remove us from His love that is in Christ.
Here's your first verse:
But God, who is rich in mercy, because of the great love he had for us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, brought us to life with Christ (by grace you have been saved), raised us up with him, and seated us with him in the heavens in Christ Jesus
, that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God;
So, you're saying that we are saved by Christ and presently seated in Heaven with him, but Christ can throw us out at any time? And we're told that salvation is by faith, and is a gift from God. You have to accept a gift. So we accept our salvation and it's ours. No work involved. Thanks for proving that with your first verse.
You used this verse next:
but I’m also being saved
For we are the aroma of Christ for God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing,
In the original Greek, past, present and future tense of words must be determined by context. The context in this verse could very well mean, "For we are the aroma of Christ for God among those who are saved and among those who perish." Let's see how Tindell properly translated this verse in the King James Bible:
2 Corinthians 2:15 (KJV)
15For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
See what I mean? Word tense is very tricky. Just killed that argument for ya'. Sorry. But it was a nice try.
And, let's argue it as if the translation were "being saved." There is a key to understanding these verses that most people don't understand. It's the make-up of the body and what part of us are saved. I will get into this after I look at your other verses.
So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your OWN
salvation with fear and trembling. (added that "own" word from the KJV translation)
Ok, unbelief is what causes the fear and trembling. The people didn't understand they were eternally secure and they were raised believing that they needed to earn everything. The sin nature makes us want to earn things. But salvation, as we read before, is a gift from God through faith alone and not by works. Not sinning is "work." These people are used to the law and thinking that you need to earn salvation. Or the laws of men about earning things. Paul is telling them to work out their salvation (figure it out). He's saying to figure out that you're eternally secure and get rid of the unbelief and false doctrines. Even if Paul were saying that you have to "work out" your salvation, this says nothing of being able to lose it.
Here's what must be understood to properly understand salvation.
We are three parts: mind, body and spirit. There's only one verse in the Bible that tells these three parts.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Alright, here, Paul's saying that he's praying that the people are "wholly" sanctified. Then he defines what "wholly" means. It means your soul, body and spirit. We know we have a mind, will and emotions. Those are our soul. Our spirit and body are the other two things.
When we're born again, as I showed in the verses in post #2, we have a spirit birthed in us from God (the Holy Spirit) and it is unstainable by sin. So, ONLY our spirit has been saved and made perfect. But our body is still corrupted with sin, like Paul expresses. Paul says that he battles with his flesh. Obviously, the body still has sin and is not perfect. Why? Because it dies. Sin brought death into the world. God said we'd die when we ate the fruit, and though Adam and Eve lived 900+ years, they still died. So, if we actually were sin-free in our bodies, we would love forever. God threw Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden so they wouldn't eat from the tree of life and live forever in their physical bodies. God was saving them from that life. Because you know Satan knew about that tree and would've tempted Adam and Eve to eat from it to fix the whole death thing.
God wasn't throwing them out of paradise to be mean. It was an act of love. Paradise was already corrupted when sin cursed the earth anyway. Besides, the earth at that time was all kind of like a paradise. Gotta' study creation theory, though, to understand scientifically just how sweet that world was.
Back on topic. Paul's spirit man was sanctified and in heaven with Christ and has eternal life that is impossible to lose, because he was 'birthed' by the Holy Spirit as is "of God" now. Permanently in the family. God gave the law to the Jews that you can disown your own son if he rebels and disgraces the family name, but you cannot disown an adopted son. God is the same way. We are now sons and daughters of God. Our spirits are incorruptible. And what Paul was saying was that we have to work our salvation into our body and mind so we could be completely blameless on the last day. This would cause you to have a super blessed life too.
But here's how Satan works. We're told that the battle is not for flesh and blood, but of powers and principalities. The battle is for our minds, not our flesh. The mind dictates what the body does. The body doesn't do anything unless the mind first commands it. Sure, the body can hurt and protest, but the mind trumps it, though. What you believe about yourself is what you manifest in your body.
Our spirit is perfect and unstainable. Paul wanted everyone to work the truth about our spirit man into our mind so that it would transfer into our body and we could be blameless and completely blessed. When you realize who you are in Christ, you realize how powerful He can be through you and what kind of authority you have.
We are told that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. That's why we must be changed on the last day into a perfect resurrection body. That's the day when Jesus saves the other two parts of us: mind and body. He makes them perfect so that they can enter heaven where the spirit already resides with Him.
When you view those verses through the three parts of man, the New Testament and Paul's arguments make complete sense and there's no confusion. Our spirit's saved, but our bodies and minds won't catch up with it till we're resurrected/raptured.