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post #1 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 07:47 AM Thread Starter
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Holy Mary, Mother of GOD???

#1) Catholics often pray to saints. As a protestant, this goes against what I have been taught. How is this justified? How can someone pray to a saint instead of God?

#2) I do not believe Mary is any holier than the rest of us. Why do Catholics insist that she is holy? It seems to me that Mary CANNOT be holy because Jesus is 100% God, from the Holy Spirit, and 100% man from Mary. If she is holy, then Jesus cannot be 100% man.
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post #2 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Fastback
#1) Catholics often pray to saints. As a protestant, this goes against what I have been taught. How is this justified? How can someone pray to a saint instead of God?

#2) I do not believe Mary is any holier than the rest of us. Why do Catholics insist that she is holy? It seems to me that Mary CANNOT be holy because Jesus is 100% God, from the Holy Spirit, and 100% man from Mary. If she is holy, then Jesus cannot be 100% man.
The Catholic religion has all kinds of weird beliefs, and they have the apocrypha interwoven into their Bible, which includes the Macabees and even an an addition to the end of Daniel, as if he wrote more than just the book we have in the Bible today. The extra stuff that Daniel has in the Catholic Bible is not written in exactly the same style as the rest of Daniel or the Bible. It's slightly different. Same with the Macabees. You can tell it doesn't sound like the Bible. We're told that all scripture is God breathed, and we're told that the original Bible scriptures are infallible (not the translations, though). We're told that scripture is all inspired by the Holy Spirit, so all of scripture will have the Holy Spirit's writing style. The Apocrypha does not have this writing style.

On top of that, in the gospels, Jesus is hanging on the cross and calls Mary the lowest form of the word "woman" in order to make sure that she's not given any special treatment or stature. The best thing anyone says about Mary is the angel that tells her she's going to have a son. He tells her that she will be blessed among women. Blessed as a few different meanings in scripture. In this particular verse, blessed means "well remembered." So, she will be well remembered among women in history. That's it. She's not a God, and neither are the Catholic saints.

The meaning of "saint" is "sanctified." You and I are saints due to Jesus' Christ giving us salvation. The Catholics, however, believe you can sin your way out of salvation, and so, I guess this means that you can't be a saint, because your salvation is dependent upon works. In order to be a Catholic Saint, you must perform three miracles (aka - miraculous WORKS). So, for the Catholics, it's all about working for your salvation. This is what Martin Luther was so upset over, because he saw that Paul said, "salvation is not by works, but by faith alone and that not of men but of God, so that no man may boast." Doesn't get much more clear than that.

In 1 Peter, I think it is, we see how Peter talks about faith without works is dead. This simply means that if you have faith, you will have works that follow, because God says there are things for us to do that He's planned for us ahead of time. But that has nothing to do with salvation. It just means that when you are not doing works, its due to your faith being dead. It was either Paul or Peter that said, "Show me your faith, and I will show you my faith by my works." May have been the same chapter in Peter, actually. Peter is just explaining that works are a result of faith, but no where in there does it say works are required for salvation. This completely kills the Catholic argument for Saints needing to perform miracles. It's like they're making it impossible for anyone to become a saint or to achieve salvation as a free gift apart from works. They're also replacing Jesus by making you come to a man who forgives your sins and tells you to say "hail mary" a bunch of times as a consequence. I mean, really.... come on... Where does it say that in the Bible? Where does it say to ask a man for forgiveness of sins, and to hail a false God (ie - Mary)?

Sorry, Catholic doctrine gets me worked up. LOL I have nothing against Catholics. I'm sure many have seen the truth and been saved. I've known or know some of them who are saved. The Catholic church here in America is luckily a little influenced by protestantism, so they have looser beliefs than the old Roman Catholic beliefs, depending on the denomination.

I do, however, have a problem with the Vatican. There's something seriously wrong with them. Vatican City is it's own country, and is known as The City on Seven Hills. The Bible says that the whore riding on the beast is clothed in red and purple and is called Mystery Babylon, she is drunk with the blood of the saints, and she is a city that sits on seven hills. Gee, I think I've seen some cardinals in red, and bishops in purple, and I believe the blood of the saints would be the dark ages and the Spanish Inquisition. The whole City on Seven Hills is quite obvious too. And the Pope ruled with the Political leader of Rome in the Holy Roman Empire for over a thousand years! Revelation is quite specific about this stuff, and the Vatican fits that bill all too well, down to city on seven hills....

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post #3 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Fastback

It seems to me that Mary CANNOT be holy because Jesus is 100% God, from the Holy Spirit, and 100% man from Mary. If she is holy, then Jesus cannot be 100% man.
not only that, but jesus would be 200%!!!!!!! no wonder he is a super being
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post #4 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 11:36 AM
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This is what Martin Luther was so upset over, because he saw that Paul said, "salvation is not by works, but by faith alone and that not of men but of God, so that no man may boast." Doesn't get much more clear than that.
Which of the many translations are you quoting?

There are too many misquotes of Catholic doctrine in the above (which I am used to from Protestants) but misquoting the Bible is not allowed.

Scripture does not say WORKS and it does not say FAITH ALONE.

NIV (Protestant) Galatians 2:15–16 We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

NIV James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Recall that Martin Luther ADDED Faith Alone in his translation and excluded James. Catholics believe, by scripture, that you must have faith and works. Works and The Law are not even the same thing. BrianC is telling you his incorrect belief about Catholics not the true Catholic doctrine.

To the original question,

#1) Catholics often pray to saints. As a protestant, this goes against what I have been taught. How is this justified? How can someone pray to a saint instead of God?

First, you are making too broad of a generalization. Martin Luther believed in Mary as Mother of God and Episcopalians names many of their Churches after saints. You are also excluding all of the Greek and Oriental Orthodox Churches (but Catholics are the biggest bull’s-eye in the US).

Catholics ask the Saints to pray for us just as you might ask your mother or sister to pray for you. The only words from the Hail Mary NOT directly taken from scripture are “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinner now and at the hour of our death.” We ask people to pray for us. I listen to a lot of Protestant radio and the preachers talk about praying for each other. The Saints are alive in Christ so we are asking for the living to pray to God with and for us.

#2) I do not believe Mary is any holier than the rest of us. Why do Catholics insist that she is holy? It seems to me that Mary CANNOT be holy because Jesus is 100% God, from the Holy Spirit, and 100% man from Mary. If she is holy, then Jesus cannot be 100% man.

She is Holy as all the S/saints are. Definition #3 from Merriam-Webster is: devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity . She devoted her entire life to the deity named Jesus.

I will gladly give Catholic links to any more specific questions but do not take the word of BrianC (with no links or footnotes to Catholic doctrine) with too much weight.

03 Mach1
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Last edited by Brain_Mach1; 11-02-2007 at 11:42 AM.
post #5 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 11:38 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by ClockwrkOrangeS4
not only that, but jesus would be 200%!!!!!!! no wonder he is a super being
I lol'd


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Originally Posted by BrianC
The Catholic religion has all kinds of weird beliefs, and they have the apocrypha interwoven into their Bible, which includes the Macabees and even an an addition to the end of Daniel, as if he wrote more than just the book we have in the Bible today. The extra stuff that Daniel has in the Catholic Bible is not written in exactly the same style as the rest of Daniel or the Bible. It's slightly different. Same with the Macabees. You can tell it doesn't sound like the Bible. We're told that all scripture is God breathed, and we're told that the original Bible scriptures are infallible (not the translations, though). We're told that scripture is all inspired by the Holy Spirit, so all of scripture will have the Holy Spirit's writing style. The Apocrypha does not have this writing style.

On top of that, in the gospels, Jesus is hanging on the cross and calls Mary the lowest form of the word "woman" in order to make sure that she's not given any special treatment or stature. The best thing anyone says about Mary is the angel that tells her she's going to have a son. He tells her that she will be blessed among women. Blessed as a few different meanings in scripture. In this particular verse, blessed means "well remembered." So, she will be well remembered among women in history. That's it. She's not a God, and neither are the Catholic saints.

The meaning of "saint" is "sanctified." You and I are saints due to Jesus' Christ giving us salvation. The Catholics, however, believe you can sin your way out of salvation, and so, I guess this means that you can't be a saint, because your salvation is dependent upon works. In order to be a Catholic Saint, you must perform three miracles (aka - miraculous WORKS). So, for the Catholics, it's all about working for your salvation. This is what Martin Luther was so upset over, because he saw that Paul said, "salvation is not by works, but by faith alone and that not of men but of God, so that no man may boast." Doesn't get much more clear than that.

In 1 Peter, I think it is, we see how Peter talks about faith without works is dead. This simply means that if you have faith, you will have works that follow, because God says there are things for us to do that He's planned for us ahead of time. But that has nothing to do with salvation. It just means that when you are not doing works, its due to your faith being dead. It was either Paul or Peter that said, "Show me your faith, and I will show you my faith by my works." May have been the same chapter in Peter, actually. Peter is just explaining that works are a result of faith, but no where in there does it say works are required for salvation. This completely kills the Catholic argument for Saints needing to perform miracles. It's like they're making it impossible for anyone to become a saint or to achieve salvation as a free gift apart from works. They're also replacing Jesus by making you come to a man who forgives your sins and tells you to say "hail mary" a bunch of times as a consequence. I mean, really.... come on... Where does it say that in the Bible? Where does it say to ask a man for forgiveness of sins, and to hail a false God (ie - Mary)?

Sorry, Catholic doctrine gets me worked up. LOL I have nothing against Catholics. I'm sure many have seen the truth and been saved. I've known or know some of them who are saved. The Catholic church here in America is luckily a little influenced by protestantism, so they have looser beliefs than the old Roman Catholic beliefs, depending on the denomination.

I do, however, have a problem with the Vatican. There's something seriously wrong with them. Vatican City is it's own country, and is known as The City on Seven Hills. The Bible says that the whore riding on the beast is clothed in red and purple and is called Mystery Babylon, she is drunk with the blood of the saints, and she is a city that sits on seven hills. Gee, I think I've seen some cardinals in red, and bishops in purple, and I believe the blood of the saints would be the dark ages and the Spanish Inquisition. The whole City on Seven Hills is quite obvious too. And the Pope ruled with the Political leader of Rome in the Holy Roman Empire for over a thousand years! Revelation is quite specific about this stuff, and the Vatican fits that bill all too well, down to city on seven hills....
So do you see a uniting of Islam with the Roman Catholic church?
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post #6 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 11:41 AM
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And by the way, anyone who is "saved" is a "saint". Some translations of the bible use the word saint and others use the words holy ones.

The churches which use the title with a capital S are signifying people they know are in heaven.

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post #7 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 11:42 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
There are too many misquotes of Catholic doctrine in the above (which I am used to from Protestants) but misquoting the Bible is not allowed.

Scripture does not say WORKS and it does not say FAITH ALONE.

NIV (Protestant) Galatians 2:15–16 We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

NIV James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Recall that Martin Luther ADDED Faith Alone in his translation and excluded James. Catholics believe, by scripture, that you must have faith and works. Works and The Law are not even the same thing. BrianC is telling you his incorrect belief about Catholics not the true Catholic doctrine.

To the original question,

#1) Catholics often pray to saints. As a protestant, this goes against what I have been taught. How is this justified? How can someone pray to a saint instead of God?

First, you are making too broad of a generalization. Martin Luther believed in Mary as Mother of God and Episcopalians names many of their Churches after saints. You are also excluding all of the Greek and Oriental Orthodox Churches (but Catholics are the biggest bull’s-eye in the US).

Catholics ask the Saints to pray for us just as you might ask your mother or sister to pray for you. The only words from the Hail Mary NOT directly taken from scripture are “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinner now and at the hour of our death.” We ask people to pray for us. I listen to a lot of Protestant radio and the preachers talk about praying for each other. The Saints are alive in Christ so we are asking for the living to pray to God with and for us.

#2) I do not believe Mary is any holier than the rest of us. Why do Catholics insist that she is holy? It seems to me that Mary CANNOT be holy because Jesus is 100% God, from the Holy Spirit, and 100% man from Mary. If she is holy, then Jesus cannot be 100% man.

She is Holy as all the S/saints are. Definition #3 from Merriam-Webster is: devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity . She devoted her entire life to the deity named Jesus.

I will gladly give Catholic links to any more specific questions but do not take the word of BrianC (with no links or footnotes to Catholic doctrine) with too much weight.
Here is a for instance:

St. Anthony, St. Anthony, please look around, my car keys must be found.

Amen

See, this is confusing.
post #8 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 11:46 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
And by the way, anyone who is "saved" is a "saint". Some translations of the bible use the word saint and others use the words holy ones.

The churches which use the title with a capital S are signifying people they know are in heaven.
I agree, we are saints if we are saved. However, Holy Mary seems dietized (if that is a word). I understand she gets special respect, being God's mother but praying to her and calling her Holy seems like exalting her above human.
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post #9 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 12:28 PM
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So do you see a uniting of Islam with the Roman Catholic church?
No. The Pope already united with the Roman government during the Holy Roman Empire. No guaratees in prophecy that this will for certain happen again, but it is possible. It would be the Pope and an entity like the E.U. or the U.N. You'd be surprized at how much money is paid to European powers by the Muslim leaders and oil companies. This is why the U.N. is rarely on the side of Israel, and usually on the side of the Muslims. For instance, the U.N. supports a Palestinian state, and will allow part of Israel to be taken to create this Palestinian state. But everyone knows that Jordan is the Palestinian state. No one will acknowledge it, though, of course, especially the Muslims, because the way you wipe out the Jews is to take over parts of the land to surround them, then, as Ahmadinejad says, "Drive the Jews into the sea."

I don't remember if you said you'd read The False Prophet by Ellis H. Skolfield yet, but if you'll read it, you'll understand the endtime prophecy stuff. He's got the seals, trumpets and vials incorrect (in my opinion), but he's got the numerical prophecies dead on accurate. Unless you read that, you'll be completely lost with my explanations. You can read it for free, or print it out and read it, at this website:

www.ellisskolfield.com (click on Books & Essays)

He proves that all of the prophecies including numerics (like 1290 days, 42 months, 1260 days, etc) have all come to pass, and are not days at all, but years. He supports it all with scripture and historical references. You can check out the history for yourself online or in history books. I've done so and he's accurate with every date cited. He cites the dates that the Bible says the prophecies begin on. That's how he figured this stuff out. VERY eye opening book. And it makes a lot of the prophecies make complete sense. It's an excellent book. Hard to put down. Around 220 pages, I think. And when you're finished with it, it'll make the Bible and the "big picutre" of the Bible make a lot more sense, especially with where we are today. I highly recommend it.

He just came out with a new one called Islam in Prophecy, and a trailer for it can be viewed here:

http://www.islamintheendtimes.com/

I ordered it from Amazon and will get it in a few days. It'll be similar to The False Prophet, but with better information, I think. Check out his other book that's free online called: The Shining Man with Hurt Hands:

www.fish-house.com/pdf/ShiningMan.pdf

I can confirm that everything he's saying in this book is true, and I have chat logs to prove it. You can trust that what you read in that book is 100%, and it will completely blow your mind. It's enlightening about certain things in the Bible and the spiritual world. It's one of my favorite books. I've read it and The False Prophet three times. Read The Shining Man straight through without stopping twice, and the first time, I only stopped because I was forced to in order to work. LOL It's a quick read since most of the book is chat logs. 217 pages I think. Excellent book.

- Brian
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post #10 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
Which of the many translations are you quoting?

There are too many misquotes of Catholic doctrine in the above (which I am used to from Protestants) but misquoting the Bible is not allowed.

Scripture does not say WORKS and it does not say FAITH ALONE.

NIV (Protestant) Galatians 2:15–16 We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

NIV James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Recall that Martin Luther ADDED Faith Alone in his translation and excluded James. Catholics believe, by scripture, that you must have faith and works. Works and The Law are not even the same thing. BrianC is telling you his incorrect belief about Catholics not the true Catholic doctrine.

To the original question,

#1) Catholics often pray to saints. As a protestant, this goes against what I have been taught. How is this justified? How can someone pray to a saint instead of God?

First, you are making too broad of a generalization. Martin Luther believed in Mary as Mother of God and Episcopalians names many of their Churches after saints. You are also excluding all of the Greek and Oriental Orthodox Churches (but Catholics are the biggest bull’s-eye in the US).

Catholics ask the Saints to pray for us just as you might ask your mother or sister to pray for you. The only words from the Hail Mary NOT directly taken from scripture are “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinner now and at the hour of our death.” We ask people to pray for us. I listen to a lot of Protestant radio and the preachers talk about praying for each other. The Saints are alive in Christ so we are asking for the living to pray to God with and for us.

#2) I do not believe Mary is any holier than the rest of us. Why do Catholics insist that she is holy? It seems to me that Mary CANNOT be holy because Jesus is 100% God, from the Holy Spirit, and 100% man from Mary. If she is holy, then Jesus cannot be 100% man.

She is Holy as all the S/saints are. Definition #3 from Merriam-Webster is: devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity . She devoted her entire life to the deity named Jesus.

I will gladly give Catholic links to any more specific questions but do not take the word of BrianC (with no links or footnotes to Catholic doctrine) with too much weight.
I admit that I definitely don't know everything there is to know about Catholicism. I was giving a very quick and dirty rundown of some of the beliefs, and didn't do a very good job of it. You are welcome to post links to any Catholic doctrine you like, as long as it's certified and not some crazy person's website. LOL Sorry, but there are a lot of crazies out there on the net and that's one reason I try to avoid giving links to "prove" stuff. I use Bible scripture instead.

However, I didn't want to get into a debate with a Catholic, and this is why I did not quote scripture or build a case. You asked for it, though, and I aim to please. And no offense to Catholics. I'll respond to a few parts of your post in my next post.

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO
post #11 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 12:38 PM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BrianC
I have chat logs to prove it.
That's sig material right there lol!

I am on p 30 of the The False Prophet
I plan to read all the books you recommended, I book marked them the other day in the other thread.
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post #12 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
Which of the many translations are you quoting?

There are too many misquotes of Catholic doctrine in the above (which I am used to from Protestants) but misquoting the Bible is not allowed.

Scripture does not say WORKS and it does not say FAITH ALONE.

NIV (Protestant) Galatians 2:15–16 We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
Sorry, forgot to put (paraphrased) after that verse I quoted. Let me get the exact verse for you.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (NASB)
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Use any translation you like. It says salvation is through faith and not as a result of works.

Here are some more verses for you:

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Romans 9:32
Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

In that Rom 9:32 verse, we see Paul referring to the Jews. He says they pursued it (salvation) as though it were by works, and they stumbled over the stumbling stone. Sounds like the Catholics, being works based.

Galatians 3:2
This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

Galatians 3:5
So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

We answer those questions presented above with this verse in Romans:

Romans 10:17
So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.


James 2:14-26 (which you quoted part of) is talking about dead faith and justification of your having faith at all. It says nothing of salvation in that entire chapter. It a lecture to Christians that are saved and then don't act on their faith by doing good works. James says that if they do not do works, their FAITH is dead. I can't tell you how many Christians (especially Catholics) I've met that have "dead faith." TONS of them. Because they aren't acting on their faith. So they've been saved, but because they did not go foward in the faith and stay close to the Lord or act on the promptings of the Holy Spirit to help others, their faith is dead inside them and doing no good. No where does it say that dead faith = loss of salvation.

James 2:26
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

So, by your logic, according to the above scripture from James 2:26, salvation needs the body and spirit in the metaphore, and salvation needs faith and works to survive in the non-metaphore? No, life in the spirit is being discussed, not salvation. So many leaps are taken to mean things that the scriptures simply do not say. If these scriptures said what you say they do, it would completely contradict what Paul said in the verses I posted toward the beginning of this post. The Bible does not contradict itself.

Quote:
NIV James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
Once again, his FAITH is being justified BY his works. This speaks nothing of salvation. So many people misinterpret this. He's justifying the fact that he HAS faith. He's proving it BY his works. This has nothing to do with salvation. Please show me where the world salvation or sanctification or "born again" is in that verse or any of the verses you've quoted.

Quote:
Recall that Martin Luther ADDED Faith Alone in his translation and excluded James. Catholics believe, by scripture, that you must have faith and works. Works and The Law are not even the same thing. BrianC is telling you his incorrect belief about Catholics not the true Catholic doctrine.
Oh, I'm sensing some Martin Luther hate here. LOL I don't particularly care about Martin Luther's beliefs or writings. All I care about is that he caught on to the whole salvation by faith thing, and split from the Catholic church. I don't care what he believes other than that.

Quote:
To the original question,

#1) Catholics often pray to saints. As a protestant, this goes against what I have been taught. How is this justified? How can someone pray to a saint instead of God?

First, you are making too broad of a generalization. Martin Luther believed in Mary as Mother of God and Episcopalians names many of their Churches after saints. You are also excluding all of the Greek and Oriental Orthodox Churches (but Catholics are the biggest bull’s-eye in the US).
Episcopalians, and many other denominations like the ones you stated above, are simply holding on to the traditions of the Catholic church. They haven't gotten as far away from them as the other protestant religions. That's really no argument there... It's like finger pointing. "Well, they're like us too!!" :P

Quote:
Catholics ask the Saints to pray for us just as you might ask your mother or sister to pray for you. The only words from the Hail Mary NOT directly taken from scripture are “Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinner now and at the hour of our death.” We ask people to pray for us. I listen to a lot of Protestant radio and the preachers talk about praying for each other. The Saints are alive in Christ so we are asking for the living to pray to God with and for us.
The Jews were expressly forbidden from speaking to the dead or praying to anyone but YHWH. So why do you guys pray to dead people? Sure, they are alive in the spirit in heaven awaiting their perfect body on the day we're resurrected, but really...what's up with the praying to dead people stuff?

Look at what happened to king Saul when he used a medium to call up the spirit of the prophet Samuel to get some advice. He goes through a soothsayer, the only one left in the land after he had all of them killed, and she raises Samuel's spirit. Samuel says, "Why have you disturbed my sleep??" Kind of like saying, "What the hell do you think you're doing, Saul?" And because of this, Saul gets killed just as it's prophecied to happen... he falls on his own sword, and then he begs a young boy of the enemy nation to kill him, because his death is happening slowly due to a gut wound with the sword. Yeah, we shouldn't be praying to the dead, in my opinion.

Besides, Jesus says He prays for us. Also, the Holy Spirit can pray perfectly through us, as well. Why do you need dead people praying for you? Are your prayers not enough? Are Jesus' prayers and His power and authority that He can use through us not enough? Is His grace not enough? Are His blessings not enough? Why go to dead people? Just curious...

Quote:
#2) I do not believe Mary is any holier than the rest of us. Why do Catholics insist that she is holy? It seems to me that Mary CANNOT be holy because Jesus is 100% God, from the Holy Spirit, and 100% man from Mary. If she is holy, then Jesus cannot be 100% man.
If she isn't any holier than the rest of us, then why ask her to pray for you? What do you believe about these sightings of Mother Mary crying blood, and the Virgin Mary's face showing up places? Just curious....
Quote:
She is Holy as all the S/saints are. Definition #3 from Merriam-Webster is: devoted entirely to the deity or the work of the deity . She devoted her entire life to the deity named Jesus.
LOL You think it was by works that she was made Holy? No, God says, "Be holy even as I am holy." He wasn't commanding us to be holy. We are incapable of being holy. We are told in scripture that the Holy Spirit literally births us a new spirit that is of GOD. That spirit is what makes us Holy. It has nothing to do with us or our works. Remember the verses I quote above? Salvation by FAITH alone and not by works.

Quote:
I will gladly give Catholic links to any more specific questions but do not take the word of BrianC (with no links or footnotes to Catholic doctrine) with too much weight.
By all means, post all you like. I know I butchered some Catholic doctrine. My apologizes for that.

I'm going to post again about once saved always saved and I want to see what you've got to disprove it.

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO
post #13 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fastback
That's sig material right there lol!

I am on p 30 of the The False Prophet
I plan to read all the books you recommended, I book marked them the other day in the other thread.
LOL

Tell me what you think of the books when you finish them. It's going to throw what you know about prophecy WAY off. lol Makes your head explode... wrap it with ducktape before you start reading, so that when it explodes, all of the pieces stay there and can be stitched back together by a doctor or plastic surgeon.

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO
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post #14 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain_Mach1
And by the way, anyone who is "saved" is a "saint". Some translations of the bible use the word saint and others use the words holy ones.

The churches which use the title with a capital S are signifying people they know are in heaven.
Catholics believe you can lose your salvation. I'm gonna' lay out a little bit of my argument for not being able to lose your salvation. I want to see if you can disprove it. I've started a thread just now called:

Can You Lose Your Salvation? (Debate)

The first post is about the debate, telling everyone to post their arguments. The next post is an e-mail I send to a friend not long ago to solidify once saved always saved. Find the thread and let's debate this topic.

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO

Last edited by BrianC; 11-02-2007 at 02:36 PM.
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post #15 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 01:48 PM
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Alright, hijacking of this thread, terrorist style, has been averted. I moved my comments into a new thread.

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO

Last edited by BrianC; 11-02-2007 at 02:37 PM.
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post #16 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 02:27 PM
Rhabdomyolysis anyone?
 
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I think it would be a good topic to have it's own thread anyway, as it can't REALLY be discussed in short form.

Crossfit.com <--- no wimps allowed
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post #17 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 02:55 PM
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Location: Not now chief, i'm in the fuckin zone
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Saint Paul the persecutor
Was a cruel and sinful man
Jesus hit him with a blinding light
And then his life began
I said yes

I said yeah


Augustin knew temptation
He loved women, wine and song
And all the special pleasures
Of doing something wrong
I said yes

I said yeah

I said yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah
You'll never make a saint of me
Oh yeah, oh yeah
You'll never make a saint of me


And could you stand the torture
And could you stand the pain
Could you put your faith in Jesus
When you're burning in the flames
I said yes, hmmmmmmmm


And I do believe in miracles
And I want to save my soul
And I know that I'm a sinner
I'm gonna die here in the cold

I said yes, I said yeah



I said yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah

You'll never make a saint of me
Oh yeah, oh yeah
You'll never make a saint of me
Oh yeah, oh yeah
You'll never make a saint of me
Oh yeah, oh yeah
You'll never make a saint of me


I thought I heard an angel cry
I thought I saw a teardrop falling from his eye

come on

John the Baptist was a martyr
But he stirred up Herod's hate
And Salome got her wish
To have him served up on a plate
I said yes, yeah

I said yeah





I said yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah
You'll never make a saint of me
Oh yeah, oh yeah
You'll never make a saint of me
Oh yeah, oh yeah
You'll never make a saint of me
Oh yeah, oh yeah
You'll never make a saint of me


I thought I heard an angel cry

I thought I saw a teardrop falling from his eye

I thought I saw an angel cry



You'll never make a saint of me

You'll never make a saint of me
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post #18 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 03:08 PM
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Posts: 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Saint Paul the persecutor
Was a cruel and sinful man
Jesus hit him with a blinding light
And then his life began
I said yes

I said yeah


Augustin knew temptation
He loved women, wine and song
And all the special pleasures
Of doing something wrong
I said yes

I said yeah

I said yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah
You'll never make a saint of me
Oh yeah, oh yeah
You'll never make a saint of me


And could you stand the torture
And could you stand the pain
Could you put your faith in Jesus
When you're burning in the flames
I said yes, hmmmmmmmm


And I do believe in miracles
And I want to save my soul
And I know that I'm a sinner
I'm gonna die here in the cold

I said yes, I said yeah



I said yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah

You'll never make a saint of me
Oh yeah, oh yeah
You'll never make a saint of me
Oh yeah, oh yeah
You'll never make a saint of me
Oh yeah, oh yeah
You'll never make a saint of me


I thought I heard an angel cry
I thought I saw a teardrop falling from his eye

come on

John the Baptist was a martyr
But he stirred up Herod's hate
And Salome got her wish
To have him served up on a plate
I said yes, yeah

I said yeah





I said yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah
You'll never make a saint of me
Oh yeah, oh yeah
You'll never make a saint of me
Oh yeah, oh yeah
You'll never make a saint of me
Oh yeah, oh yeah
You'll never make a saint of me


I thought I heard an angel cry

I thought I saw a teardrop falling from his eye

I thought I saw an angel cry



You'll never make a saint of me

You'll never make a saint of me
What the heck? This sounds like something a dark alternate personality would type. When I work with multiples and they have Satanic alternate personalities, they'll come out and type things like this.... dark poetry or songs or riddles.

- Brian
1992 Taurus SHO
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post #19 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 03:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
No. The Pope already united with the Roman government during the Holy Roman Empire.
When the pope crowned Charlemagne and the Papal Staes were created? The Holy Roman Empire never even included Rome in it's 1000 years of strong or weak rule. Infact, many emperors opposed the Papacy such as Charles V who protected Martin Luther. English and French rulers all supported or fought with the Pope at diferent times.

Do you by chance mean the Roman Empire post Constantine or the relationship of the Byzantine Empire and Rome?

03 Mach1
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post #20 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 03:45 PM
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Just because it's different than what you believe, it doesn't make it wrong. What makes you so sure the way you pray is the only way to pray?
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post #21 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 03:46 PM
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Location: Not now chief, i'm in the fuckin zone
Posts: 19,895
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianC
What the heck? This sounds like something a dark alternate personality would type. When I work with multiples and they have Satanic alternate personalities, they'll come out and type things like this.... dark poetry or songs or riddles.



lol, its a song by the Rolling Stones.
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post #22 of 22 (permalink) Old 11-02-2007, 03:52 PM
Painting Your House
 
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Location: Denton County, Texas
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