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post #1 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-05-2005, 06:47 AM Thread Starter
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Is God a Loving God?

Big discussion at my house after church group on Tuesday. I believe God is all love, but looking at the world and my life I'm lacking proof to back up my belief. I get so tried of the" if God loves all his children why does all this bad stuff happen". I used to try to explain it to people, but now I'm wondering the same thing.

I'm a man. I can change, if I have to, I guess.
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post #2 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-05-2005, 08:22 AM
 
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"If God is in control then why does He let bad stuff happen?" I hear that q' all the time.

God love's, God also hate's. We're told He loves us and hates sin.

If you believe in free will then you must by extension believe that God allows us to choose whether or not we'll obey Him. When Adam & Eve sinned in the garden they allowed sin into the world. They basically said, "we want to be like God". Their choice allowed Satan free rein. Who created Satan? God created him, he was the chief of the angels yet he rebelled, much like Adam & Eve because he wanted to be in control. So why doesn't He simply get rid of him? He gave that job to us! Satan isn't God's equal! He has given us authority over the spirits and expects us to use it. This life is boot camp for the next. It's hard work. When Gen. George Washington finally defeated Cornwallis they agreed on time/place for the surrender ceremony. Cornwallis then was too embarrassed to show up and sent his second to surrender his sword. Washington therefore sent his second to accept. In the same way God has delegated the defeat of Satan to us. He has given us the power to do so, obviously we could never do it by our own strength.

If you had the ability to create a robot and program it to "love" you... would that be love? To me that's just service, not love.
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post #3 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-07-2005, 01:40 PM
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Wow. I can't believe this. I JUST did my sermon Sunday to the Youth at my Church, on this exact same topic.

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post #4 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-07-2005, 01:52 PM
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Let me see if I can summarize:

1.) God intended for us to live in a paradise.

2.) His creation rebelled and thus the whole world was cursed.

3.) The whole world trevails and groans, together in pain. Even we who have the firstfruits of the Spirit groan. (Romans 8: 22-23)

Points I brought up:

1.) Is is fair of God to curse the rest of us because of ONE man?
Yes. He was going to BLESS us through Adam and Eve if they had obeyed. That was His original intent. If the original Law of God had been obeyed (Not to partake of those trees in the midst of the Garden, Had Adam and the descendants thereafter, guarded those trees we would be in paradise and we would all know GOD personally. Adam rebelled and to be fair with His original intent, He cursed us all and now the situation is entirely different. God is bound by His stated Character, it may not seem "fair" to us but, it is exactly Fair.

2.) Because of the world's NOW imperfect state after the curse. Sickness happens, disease, lay offs, droughts, everything happens. Christians "Good-people" feel the pain, so to speak, also.

3.) Was is fair to place the Trees of Knowledge and Life in the Garden in the first place? Well, God is FAIR. Is Good really so, if there is no Evil? Is there a Right choice if there is no Wrong? God gave us free-will, is there free will to make a choice if there is no choice to make? Is that really free-will?

So yes, God is Love, He is Fair, He is Good. God also, is wrath, and righteous judgement.

I let the kids answer these questions themselves and to give me their honest thoughts and opinions, not what they think I want to hear or that they should say. I think that it went rather well.

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post #5 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-07-2005, 02:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 72Comet
Big discussion at my house after church group on Tuesday. I believe God is all love, but looking at the world and my life I'm lacking proof to back up my belief. I get so tried of the" if God loves all his children why does all this bad stuff happen". I used to try to explain it to people, but now I'm wondering the same thing.
The answer is simple, read the story of Job. WHO did the bad things to Job?? Satan, he was allowed by God but Satan did it.
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post #6 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-07-2005, 08:19 PM Thread Starter
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That brings up another question. Does Satan need permission to attack anyone or was that a one time thing with Job?

I'm a man. I can change, if I have to, I guess.
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post #7 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-07-2005, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 72Comet
That brings up another question. Does Satan need permission to attack anyone or was that a one time thing with Job?
well as the story goes, God was kinda braggin on Job and Satan said that God had put ahedge around him, so i take he was protected!
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post #8 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-10-2005, 06:49 AM Thread Starter
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I agree he was protected, but what about me and you? Does Satan need permission from God to attack us? I know not to blame every bad thing that happens on Satan. My own sin and defiance is to blame alot of the time. This last year of my life has been a drudge, can't seem to get anything going my way. Somethings got to give soon.

I'm a man. I can change, if I have to, I guess.
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post #9 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by 72Comet
I agree he was protected, but what about me and you? Does Satan need permission from God to attack us? I know not to blame every bad thing that happens on Satan. My own sin and defiance is to blame alot of the time. This last year of my life has been a drudge, can't seem to get anything going my way. Somethings got to give soon.
Well I dont have the answers for ya, I wish I did, Im sure you are but give things to God in prayer, you can only change the things you have control over, give of yourself beyond what you think you can and you will be rewarded, Satan is always trying to get Christians to renounce God. Our troubles are what strengthen us. Good lUck!!
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post #10 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-13-2005, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Monsoon X
Let me see if I can summarize:

1.) God intended for us to live in a paradise.

2.) His creation rebelled and thus the whole world was cursed.

3.) The whole world trevails and groans, together in pain. Even we who have the firstfruits of the Spirit groan. (Romans 8: 22-23)

Points I brought up:

1.) Is is fair of God to curse the rest of us because of ONE man?
Yes. He was going to BLESS us through Adam and Eve if they had obeyed. That was His original intent. If the original Law of God had been obeyed (Not to partake of those trees in the midst of the Garden, Had Adam and the descendants thereafter, guarded those trees we would be in paradise and we would all know GOD personally. Adam rebelled and to be fair with His original intent, He cursed us all and now the situation is entirely different. God is bound by His stated Character, it may not seem "fair" to us but, it is exactly Fair.

2.) Because of the world's NOW imperfect state after the curse. Sickness happens, disease, lay offs, droughts, everything happens. Christians "Good-people" feel the pain, so to speak, also.

3.) Was is fair to place the Trees of Knowledge and Life in the Garden in the first place? Well, God is FAIR. Is Good really so, if there is no Evil? Is there a Right choice if there is no Wrong? God gave us free-will, is there free will to make a choice if there is no choice to make? Is that really free-will?

So yes, God is Love, He is Fair, He is Good. God also, is wrath, and righteous judgement.

I let the kids answer these questions themselves and to give me their honest thoughts and opinions, not what they think I want to hear or that they should say. I think that it went rather well.
Very well put. He has a reason for everything.

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post #11 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-14-2005, 07:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 72Comet
That brings up another question. Does Satan need permission to attack anyone or was that a one time thing with Job?
Nobody really knows when this occured, but scholars believe that Job is the oldest book of the Bible. Sure, Genesis was written about the beginning, but Moses didn't write the first 5 books until way after it happened. During the time of Job, we really don't know what the relationship between God and Satan was.
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post #12 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-14-2005, 11:36 AM
 
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I see our protection as an umbrella. When we choose to step out from under God's will He no longer protects us, at least to some extent. Sometimes it is God's will that we undergo trials because they strengthen us and it's not because we were disobedient. When Jesus fasted in the wilderness Satan offered Him dominion over the world... Jesus didn't say "it's not yours to give". Satan does have power, just not complete.

Quote:
During the time of Job, we really don't know what the relationship between God and Satan was.
I've seen nothing to suggest that it was any different then than now. Satan is depicted as a "roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour". I believe Satan was given a choice originally and so are we. For God to remove all evil from the world would remove all choice.
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post #13 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-15-2005, 09:29 PM
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It rains on the believer and the unbeliever (not sure of verse)
Bad things happen to test us and to strengthen our faith and reliance on God. God never tempts us though, that is Satan.
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post #14 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-16-2005, 01:02 AM
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I wouldn't go as far as saying that He tests us, but He does allow things to happen. We can pray for help when we need it, but things happen because of the free will that He's given us. We ALL deserve the worst, so I think we're all pretty fortunate for what little bad happens to us.
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post #15 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-21-2005, 08:47 PM
 
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Well why is it that we ALL deserve the worst? That seems kind of harsh. Think about this situation....say a man grows up, all his life he is a perfect "christian". Goes to church every sunday and wednesday, prays everynight, has a beautiful wife and 2 kids who all do the same. Their lives are great and they are happy and content with everything around them. Then one day a stranger breaks into his house, rapes his wife, kills his kids and makes him watch the whole thing and leaves him alive to live with it the rest of his life. Does he "deserve" that because he lives in a so called cursed world?

And also, say the guy who commited all this one day is struck with guilt so he asks for forgiveness and to be saved...so that means the guy can go to heaven then? Doesnt seem right...
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post #16 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-22-2005, 06:40 AM
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It doesn't seem right to you because you think people should go to heaven based on how good they are. That is why you are not God. And I am thankful for that little fact.

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post #17 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-23-2005, 08:42 AM
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Originally Posted by WyLdMuStAnGT95
And also, say the guy who commited all this one day is struck with guilt so he asks for forgiveness and to be saved...so that means the guy can go to heaven then? Doesnt seem right...
Again, read the book of Job. He went through MUCH in his life and he ALWAYS gave God the glory in all things.

I can't say exactlly what I would do if I were the man in your story, but I do know I would pray for the strangers salvation and that he would come to repentance, and Gods will would be done.

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post #18 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-24-2005, 06:17 AM Thread Starter
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[And also, say the guy who commited all this one day is struck with guilt so he asks for forgiveness and to be saved...so that means the guy can go to heaven then? Doesnt seem right...[/QUOTE]

Yeah I know that doesn't seem right, but yes that guy and any of us can be forgiven. Thats why Christ came. This guy will go to heaven but he'll have to live on the south side of town.

I'm a man. I can change, if I have to, I guess.
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post #19 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-26-2005, 10:21 PM
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It is not our place to judge rapists and murderers, for their time will be at hand soon enough. Luke 6:37-38. Now read Luke 12:22-34.
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post #20 of 32 (permalink) Old 02-27-2005, 07:01 AM Thread Starter
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Your right it's not our place to judge, unless your a JUDGE. It is my place to discern between rightousness and wickedness. Its just not my place to question why things happen the way they do. Why do you think right before they execute someone they have a preist visit them. Heres your last chance to repent, oh you do? You are then forgiven my son, now say hello to God for me cause you're going to see him soon.

I'm a man. I can change, if I have to, I guess.
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post #21 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-17-2005, 11:21 AM
 
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No! read this and you will see ..............

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/babel/index02.htm
and this....
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/babel/index.htm


The god you worship today is one of 2 gods that is evil and corrupt.

Any "Diety" that tells you you must worship him and him alone or else is not a god at all but a coward and a false god.
Any god that hides knowledge and truth is Evil.
You have been tricked.........

wake up..........You are GOD! WE are god! The idea of god like behavir is in you........not in the sky or Cloudland. You make your life happen. You make your life worth living. You make right your mistakes. You make your own decisions. You make the choice of right or wrong. You make the choice to be evil or good. You answer your own prayers, not a god..........
TK
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post #22 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-18-2005, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK_Blown98_GT
wake up..........You are GOD! WE are god! The idea of god like behavir is in you........not in the sky or Cloudland. You make your life happen. You make your life worth living. You make right your mistakes. You make your own decisions. You make the choice of right or wrong. You make the choice to be evil or good. You answer your own prayers, not a god..........
TK
I respect your beliefs but I believe you to be wrong. Sounds sorta like Christian Science.

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post #23 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-19-2005, 02:43 PM
 
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wake up..........You are GOD! WE are god!
Quote:
Any "Diety" that tells you you must worship him and him alone or else is not a god at all but a coward and a false god.
OK, let's think about this. We're all god's on an equal footing with each other. That means we can do no wrong. We can all murder (or should I say kill?) rape and pillage to our hearts content. After all, with no higher authority what's right or wrong is only right to you or me. For you to apply your standards to others would be hypocrisy. So whatever "God" (the god of the Bible) chooses to do cannot be wrong!

If there's a flaw in my logic please tell me what it is. And please don't take this personally, I'm not attacking you, just your argument.
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post #24 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-19-2005, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TK_Blown98_GT
No! read this and you will see ..............

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/babel/index02.htm
and this....
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/babel/index.htm


The god you worship today is one of 2 gods that is evil and corrupt.

Any "Diety" that tells you you must worship him and him alone or else is not a god at all but a coward and a false god.
Any god that hides knowledge and truth is Evil.
You have been tricked.........

wake up..........You are GOD! WE are god! The idea of god like behavir is in you........not in the sky or Cloudland. You make your life happen. You make your life worth living. You make right your mistakes. You make your own decisions. You make the choice of right or wrong. You make the choice to be evil or good. You answer your own prayers, not a god..........
TK
Your websites appear to be warning us of websites like those... thanks for letting us know.
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post #25 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-19-2005, 08:13 PM
 
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OK, just read those two links. He (I'm assuming it's a he) uses circular logic and jumps around in scripture taking it out of context. Pretty poorly done.

Quote:
In the New Testament, Christ describes His Father as an all loving God. The behavior of the God in the Old Testament reveals a God that keeps His creation under control through the deprivation of Knowledge and Liberty. To deprive someone of Liberty is to deprive them of FREEDOM.
If I had a child, I would tell them not to stick their finger in the electrical socket. That is depriving them of "freedom". By his reasoning that means I don't love my child.

Quote:
After Adam & Eve ate of the fruit (The Forbidden Knowledge) they became aware of what their nudity was symbolic of and were then cast out of Eden. The following scripture irrefutably reflects dependence:

Genesis 3:21; Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.
He suggests that their nudity was symbolic of dependence, slavery, oppression etc. To be perfectly clear, he needs to say exactly what he means and not intimate it.

If you make something, is it not yours to do with as you like? To say otherwise means each plant, animal and rock deserves complete independence from all outside influence. This means we do not have the right to bend them our will... no more housing and no more food!

He's good about giving the definitions of the words he's using but he still has some basic assumptions there I'm not clear on. Are they in another link or does he assume we should all know what he's talking about?

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post #26 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-19-2005, 09:42 PM
 
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free will man , free will
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post #27 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-27-2005, 07:00 PM
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And 1 thing that I dont remember reading is that its the bad times that makes us strong.
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post #28 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-28-2005, 07:29 AM
 
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And 1 thing that I dont remember reading is that its the bad times that makes us strong.
James 1:2-4, Consider it pure joy my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Perseverance must finish it's work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

Jms. 1:12, Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love Him. 13, When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me". For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone, 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.

Jms. 1:16-17, Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
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post #29 of 32 (permalink) Old 03-28-2005, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKDGabe
James 1:2-4, Consider it pure joy my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Perseverance must finish it's work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything.

Jms. 1:12, Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love Him. 13, When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me". For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone, 14 but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.

Jms. 1:16-17, Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
I meant that I dont remember reading it in the thread. I know God's word about hard times. Not only that , but I have had my share of those times myself. And I can whitness to the fact. I owe who I am for the times I walked the rough roads.
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post #30 of 32 (permalink) Old 04-20-2005, 03:52 PM
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Heres what i wanna KNOW,
If satan got kicked out heaven and GOD knows everything even before it happens ,then HE knew that satan would turn on him and get kicked out and corrupt adam and eve,So maybee everything was done purposely!,since the begining of time.
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post #31 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-16-2005, 03:06 PM
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"IF" god does exist, and thats a big if in my life as of yet, it seems to me he loves us all to leave us the heck alone and do as we please. if we accept him, he loves us even more, and if we don't, he still loves us, we just cant be with him.
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post #32 of 32 (permalink) Old 05-16-2005, 08:17 PM
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man there have been some great posts, you guys are amazing- good stuff on refuting that whole "we are gods" thing- be if anyone has seen bruce almighty w/ jm carrey then they know how screwed things would be.
In that movie he raises another good point, carrey asks "how do you get someone w/ free will to love you," and God replies something like "i've been working on that for years, if you find out let me know."
Of course God has shown the perfect way in Christ, but we still reject him b.c we think we are lil' gods and can rule our own lives.

That leads to me this, what i originally was going to say. I can't so mad, when we reduce our faith into going to heaven as if that was why Jesus died. That is one reason, but not the main reason.
Mostly it was so that he could introduce the Kingdom of God to our earth. So men would no longer rule thier lives, but would surrender thier lives to God: that way his righteous and justice could prevail.
THat means we need to quit staring into heaven, and begin to look for the brokenhearted, the homeless, the hiv victim, the homosexual, the rapist, the widows, and orphans. To bad we are too busy entertaining ourselves to death to get the point of the gospel, Jesus died to free us of sin, give us life eternally beginning here on earth, extending to the throne.

Sorry about the length, my bad.
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