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post #1 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-12-2005, 06:51 PM Thread Starter
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Question Question about "Hate Crime" thread in Back Porch..

I'm not trying to hit on a touchy subject with anyone, but I am curious on your thoughts....

In the thread in the back porch titled "Reading Bible in public is a Hate Crime", someone said homosexuals will be damned to hell (not an exact quote, but the basic idea). I have always heard that Christians believe that you will be forgiven of your sins as long as you accept Jesus into your heart and ask forgiveness of your sins. If you are one who believes this, does homosexuality not count?
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post #2 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-12-2005, 07:45 PM
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When a person accepts Jesus as their personal Savior they are also supposed to turn from their sins. This includes homosexuality.
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1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that unjust ones will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be led astray, neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor male prostitutes, nor homosexuals,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor covetous ones, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor plunderers shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And some of you were these things, but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and in the Spirit of our God.

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post #3 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-12-2005, 07:52 PM Thread Starter
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So, if they accept Jesus, and continue to be a homosexual, then they will be denied Heaven, BUT
If they don't accept Jesus until their death bed, and do not commit another act of homosexuality, then they are forgiven?

That doesn't make sense.
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post #4 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-12-2005, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by GT2002Cutie
So, if they accept Jesus, and continue to be a homosexual, then they will be denied Heaven, BUT
If they don't accept Jesus until their death bed, and do not commit another act of homosexuality, then they are forgiven?

That doesn't make sense.
You can't look at being a Christian as just "accepting" Jesus right before you die and you'll be okay as the Catholics would like you to believe. What you've done in your life also comes into play. Thats why nobody is saved by just faith or works. You must have both in unison with the grace of God to enter Heaven.

Grace isn't given by God so you can just use it whenever you feel like doing something bad and then coming right back to God to get forgiven for it. Its there for us because God understands that no matter how hard we try to live our lives the way we are supposed to, we will stumble, but grace is there to cover up that every now and then fall we have.

Homosexuality is nothing more than a lifestyle choice. You can either live your life the way Christ wants you to or you can give into your own selfish wants and needs. Both have their end rewards. The choice is there for everyone and nobody can make it for them but themselves.
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post #5 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-12-2005, 09:25 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks.

It's not often I find an answer that doesn't present another question. However, you do present a different topic all together:
Like you said, Catholics believe that you can be forgiven even at the last moments, but Catholics are Christians as well. So how do you define a Christian?
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post #6 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-12-2005, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT2002Cutie
Thanks.

It's not often I find an answer that doesn't present another question. However, you do present a different topic all together:
Like you said, Catholics believe that you can be forgiven even at the last moments, but Catholics are Christians as well. So how do you define a Christian?
I think of Catholics as more than christians. More, not in meaning greater, but more than just in the bible. I go to Christ Chapel Bible Church. We go by the bible, that it.

Catholics do things that I don't agree with. They pray to Mary sometime, instead of god. They think that the mother has sway with the son. They elevate people (saints) to the level of god and jesus. Their churches seem to be heavy with pictures, statues, shines. (idiology)
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post #7 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-12-2005, 09:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT2002Cutie
Thanks.

It's not often I find an answer that doesn't present another question. However, you do present a different topic all together:
Like you said, Catholics believe that you can be forgiven even at the last moments, but Catholics are Christians as well. So how do you define a Christian?
One who believes soley and exactly what the Bible teaches, nothing more/nothing less.

Nowhere will you find virginal sin, mass, Pope, Bishops, Arch-Bishops, roseary, confession to a priest, selling of indulgences, etc. in the Bible.

All of that is from the early European days because the people in the church wanted to keep themselves high up above all the other people and line their pockets with money. This is why Martin Luther separated from the Catholic church.

Basically, the Catholic church is a farse to me because its basically you can live how you want to as long as you tell a priest what you did and when you did it and you can be "forgiven." Plus you have a hierarchy in the church where people are placed on a higher ground than others which is totally wrong. Everyone is equal in God's sight and God is not a respector of persons.

Just read the Bible and take it for exacly what it says and don't try to read into what it "might be saying" as so many people do without the proper education on the origins and the languages it was originally written in. It would be a whole lot easier if everyone understood Aramaic or Greek because you wouldn't get all these misunderstandings about the meaning of words.
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post #8 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-12-2005, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT2002Cutie
Thanks.

It's not often I find an answer that doesn't present another question. However, you do present a different topic all together:
Like you said, Catholics believe that you can be forgiven even at the last moments, but Catholics are Christians as well. So how do you define a Christian?
One who believes soley and exactly what the Bible teaches, nothing more/nothing less.

Nowhere will you find virginal sin, mass, Pope, Bishops, Arch-Bishops, roseary, confession to a priest, selling of indulgences, etc. in the Bible.

All of that is from the early European days because the people in the church wanted to keep themselves high up above all the other people and line their pockets with money. This is why Martin Luther separated from the Catholic church.

Basically, the Catholic church is a farse to me because its basically you can live how you want to as long as you tell a priest what you did and when you did it and you can be "forgiven." Plus you have a hierarchy in the church where people are placed on a higher ground than others which is totally wrong. Everyone is equal in God's sight and God is not a respector of persons.

Just read the Bible and take it for exacly what it says and don't try to read into what it "might be saying" as so many people do without the proper education on the origins and the languages it was originally written in. It would be a whole lot easier if everyone understood Aramaic or Greek because you wouldn't get all these misunderstandings about the meaning of words.
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post #9 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-12-2005, 09:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT2002Cutie
So, if they accept Jesus, and continue to be a homosexual, then they will be denied Heaven, BUT
If they don't accept Jesus until their death bed, and do not commit another act of homosexuality, then they are forgiven?

That doesn't make sense.
I am not one to say whether they will go to Heaven or not. It is a matter of where their heart is at, it doesn't matter if it it 10 years or 10 minutes before they die. While we only see the acts commited by man, God sees the true heart and makes His judgement based on that.

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post #10 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 01:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GT2002Cutie
I'm not trying to hit on a touchy subject with anyone, but I am curious on your thoughts....

In the thread in the back porch titled "Reading Bible in public is a Hate Crime", someone said homosexuals will be damned to hell (not an exact quote, but the basic idea). I have always heard that Christians believe that you will be forgiven of your sins as long as you accept Jesus into your heart and ask forgiveness of your sins. If you are one who believes this, does homosexuality not count?
I'm the one that said they will be damned to hell. I was joking. NEVER take me seriously. I'm very guilty of not making my sarcasm obvious. Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you. But as far as that thread was concerned, I don't think that the Christians were wrong for quoting scripture in public. I think one of the new laws in this country is "You have the right to free speech, as long as you refrain from letting the words 'God,' 'Jesus,' or 'Holy spirit' slip from your tongue. Or any other words from that wretched book called the 'Bible.' "

I agree completely with the statements of all you guys up top. Well said. Homosexuals will be forgiven if they ask for it. But they need to change thier lifestyle for it to mean anything to God. Would you ask for forgiveness from God for cheating on your wife/husband while still in the act of doing it? Wouldn't make sense. You need to make a decision to change before you ask. And if you need...ask God to help you change. He works wonders.

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post #11 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 02:02 AM Thread Starter
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I really appreciate all of your thoughts and ideals. I always like to hear other people's perspective on religion. I also thank you for not being judgemental in my questions. It is sometimes hard to find those who will answer your questions without laughter as to you not having the answers yourself.
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post #12 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 02:58 AM
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I really appreciate all of your thoughts and ideals. I always like to hear other people's perspective on religion. I also thank you for not being judgemental in my questions. It is sometimes hard to find those who will answer your questions without laughter as to you not having the answers yourself.
I try not to be judgemental at all. Although I wouldn't consider anything I've ever said "useful," I still think that there are people out there who have no clue and I at least try to offer help where it's needed. There are a lot of people on this board, especially in the 'back porch' forum that need a good slap in the face sometimes (myself included). But props to you for having the guts to ask questions. You're in my prayers.

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post #13 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 06:24 AM
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We've covered this topic a hundred times in this forum in the past. My stance is that homosexualality is a birth defect. Science has proven that the part of the brain that controls sexual desires are different or reversed in homosexuals. So telling a gay person that they will go to hell if they don't stop being who they are is stupid. It's like going up to someone born with no legs and telling them their going to burn in hell if they don't stop sitting in that wheelchair. For those who think its a lifestyle are you kidding? Everybody hates them, their familys dis-own them, alot of them hate themselves because society makes them feel like freaks, who would choose that? I feel sorry for them, I've been around alot of gays and they don't have a easy go in life. Isn't that why Christ came for the lost, hurting and afflicted. If the tables where turned and I was told I had to change and quit having sex with my lovely wife and start being attracted to men or I was going to hell. I'd be in trouble. I'd have to say a prayer like, God please forgive me I'd change if I could, but thats not who I am. Besides recognigtion of unworthiness and the humility it brings is the threshold of spirituality.

I'm a man. I can change, if I have to, I guess.
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post #14 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 08:27 AM
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My stance is that homosexualality is a birth defect. Science has proven that the part of the brain that controls sexual desires are different or reversed in homosexuals
Wrong. If you're gonna say "science has proven it" you should produce the evidence. Plenty of people like to say that as it gives an easy out.

The only thing that's inherent to mankind is the propensity to sin. We're all innate sinners! In Gods' view one sin is the same as another so don't think I just have it in for homosexuals.

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Thats why nobody is saved by just faith or works. You must have both in unison with the grace of God to enter Heaven.
NO! We are saved by grace, through faith and not by works lest any man should boast. It is true that "you know a tree by it's fruit" and if you are saved you will do good works. When Jesus rescued the woman caught in adultery (how do you catch ONE person in adultery? Where was the guy? The crowd was hypocrital, that's why Jesus said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone") he said "go your way and sin no more". You can be saved on your deathbed but God knows your heart... an insincere apology doesn't count with Him.
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post #15 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 08:42 AM
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We've covered this topic a hundred times in this forum in the past. My stance is that homosexualality is a birth defect. Science has proven that the part of the brain that controls sexual desires are different or reversed in homosexuals.
That makes all sexual activity normal then, doesn't it. You think sex with a child or animal in natual. Some people just have the urg to rape, is that normal too, because after all it is just the thought patternal of the brain.
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post #16 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 09:05 AM
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But as far as that thread was concerned, I don't think that the Christians were wrong for quoting scripture in public. I think one of the new laws in this country is "You have the right to free speech, as long as you refrain from letting the words 'God,' 'Jesus,' or 'Holy spirit' slip from your tongue. Or any other words from that wretched book called the 'Bible.' "
This is the thing that I keep trying to point out and I don't think some people in that thread are getting it. What's happening now with the Christians is just the tip of the iceberg; once the precident is set for "hate speech" then the door is wide open for all kinds of restrictions on free speech. The Christians just provided an easy starting point for the process. It's a slippery slope that we are heading down.
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post #17 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 10:30 AM
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That makes all sexual activity normal then, doesn't it. You think sex with a child or animal in natual. Some people just have the urg to rape, is that normal too, because after all it is just the thought patternal of the brain.
You go Devil Dog!

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post #18 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by SVTVenom
One who believes soley and exactly what the Bible teaches, nothing more/nothing less.

Nowhere will you find virginal sin, mass, Pope, Bishops, Arch-Bishops, roseary, confession to a priest, selling of indulgences, etc. in the Bible.

All of that is from the early European days because the people in the church wanted to keep themselves high up above all the other people and line their pockets with money. This is why Martin Luther separated from the Catholic church.

Basically, the Catholic church is a farse to me because its basically you can live how you want to as long as you tell a priest what you did and when you did it and you can be "forgiven." Plus you have a hierarchy in the church where people are placed on a higher ground than others which is totally wrong. Everyone is equal in God's sight and God is not a respector of persons.

Just read the Bible and take it for exacly what it says and don't try to read into what it "might be saying" as so many people do without the proper education on the origins and the languages it was originally written in. It would be a whole lot easier if everyone understood Aramaic or Greek because you wouldn't get all these misunderstandings about the meaning of words.
I agree with most of what ya said..................just don't like the word "farse".
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post #19 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 11:26 AM
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This is the thing that I keep trying to point out and I don't think some people in that thread are getting it. What's happening now with the Christians is just the tip of the iceberg; once the precident is set for "hate speech" then the door is wide open for all kinds of restrictions on free speech. The Christians just provided an easy starting point for the process. It's a slippery slope that we are heading down.
Amen.

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post #20 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 11:39 AM
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Wrong. If you're gonna say "science has proven it" you should produce the evidence. Plenty of people like to say that as it gives an easy out.

The only thing that's inherent to mankind is the propensity to sin. We're all innate sinners! In Gods' view one sin is the same as another so don't think I just have it in for homosexuals.



NO! We are saved by grace, through faith and not by works lest any man should boast. It is true that "you know a tree by it's fruit" and if you are saved you will do good works. When Jesus rescued the woman caught in adultery (how do you catch ONE person in adultery? Where was the guy? The crowd was hypocrital, that's why Jesus said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone") he said "go your way and sin no more". You can be saved on your deathbed but God knows your heart... an insincere apology doesn't count with Him.
James 2:18-22
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
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post #21 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 12:05 PM
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James 2:18-22
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
It just means faith and works go hand in hand on the path to heaven.
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post #22 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 01:54 PM
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It seems like a catch 22 doesn't it? It's not though... I didn't say that you shouldn't have works, just that that's not what saves you. If you have faith you will have works, it's that simple. He asked about the "deathbed conversion" though. No time for works there... if someone truly repents (and only God knows the heart) he will be saved.
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post #23 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVTVenom
One who believes soley and exactly what the Bible teaches, nothing more/nothing less.

Nowhere will you find virginal sin, mass, Pope, Bishops, Arch-Bishops, roseary, confession to a priest, selling of indulgences, etc. in the Bible.

All of that is from the early European days because the people in the church wanted to keep themselves high up above all the other people and line their pockets with money. This is why Martin Luther separated from the Catholic church.

Basically, the Catholic church is a farse to me because its basically you can live how you want to as long as you tell a priest what you did and when you did it and you can be "forgiven." Plus you have a hierarchy in the church where people are placed on a higher ground than others which is totally wrong. Everyone is equal in God's sight and God is not a respector of persons.

Just read the Bible and take it for exacly what it says and don't try to read into what it "might be saying" as so many people do without the proper education on the origins and the languages it was originally written in. It would be a whole lot easier if everyone understood Aramaic or Greek because you wouldn't get all these misunderstandings about the meaning of words.
Obviously you know nothing about the Catholic Church and probably very little about Martin Luther. During Luther's time, ca. 1483-154 (right after the peak of the Renaissance and shortly before the Reformation), The Catholic Church was going through several problems such as their involvement with political affairs but it was nothing like what it is today. The Catholic Church has gone through several reformations and have held several Ecumenical Councils in order to be what it is today. Luther believed in a simpler structure of the Church. He didn't believe that you had to your earn your way to get into heaven. Why would Jesus have spent so much time out preaching and feeding the poor if he didn't believe in giving and helping your brothers and sisters? Not only do we receive grace from God through the sacraments, but we also experience grace through our interactions with each other. Luther broke away from the Catholic Church because he felt the weight of his own sins and was scared for his own salvation and didn't find any solace in the Catholic Church. He later created his own theology after reading the Bible and finding two passages ( Romans 1:17 and Romans 3:24) that spoke to him and found solace in that alone. Luther found freedom in believing that he did not have to earn his way into heaven and that he was already given grace. This was the basis of Luther's theology. He believed that he was saved through faith alone in Christ alone and scripture alone. He then created his church simpler and less structured. He thought that everyone was called into priesthood and that all vocations are equal. If that were the case, why would Christ himself have chosen St. Peter to be the leader of his Church if he hadn't intended for there to be some kind of hierarchy? Can you honestly compare yourself to the Pope or to a priest? Someone who dedicates their entire life to preaching and praying, living a life of celibacy and simplicity and limiting their lives to few or no sins at all. And to say that you have to read the Bible and take it for "exactly" what it says is also a lie. Most of the Bible is written in narrative form and you can't take it literally. The Bible was written to teach a lesson and you have to take into account the audience, the writer, events at the time it was written and the message they were trying to convey. Most of the points you made about virginal sin, the hierarchy of the Church and confession were established throughout Jesus's life and through the Apostles. I will give you the one on the selling of indulgences but those leaders were excommunicated and the selling of indulgences was banned after the Council of Trent ca. 1543. Also, Take the Book of Revelation, are you saying that everything in that book should be taken literally??? I don't think so. You say that it would be easier if everyone read Aramaic or Greek, but language back then was just like it is today. Back then they had one word that could have 5 different meanings, even written, how could anyone but the original writer know exactly what he was trying to say? To say that the Catholic Church is a farce would be coming from someone very ignorant in the history of the religion and of his own. We don't do whatever we want and then ask for forgiveness, that's something we have to truly believe and truly repent for in order to really receive forgiveness. It's just like the Lutherans. You can't just recite "faith alone, scripture alone in Christ alone" and expect to be saved, you have to truly believe it in order for it to work for you. I think you should stick to Lutheranism if that's what you believe in, and do your research before you begin to critique another religion and get it all wrong.
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post #24 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 04:29 PM
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That makes all sexual activity normal then, doesn't it. You think sex with a child or animal in natual. Some people just have the urg to rape, is that normal too, because after all it is just the thought patternal of the brain.
How did you get a possible explanation of defect, and without a doubt abnormal act and turn it into condolance of criminal behavior? I believe theres a differance between perversion and homosexuality. I think I just changed my mind about this law, these people just might need protection from some compasion filled Christians.

I'm a man. I can change, if I have to, I guess.
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post #25 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 04:32 PM
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Wow Vicky! Nice write!
But please show me where in the Bible it says that I must confess my sins to a priest in order for my sins to be forgiven?.............my biggest problem with the Catholic church
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post #26 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 04:47 PM
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How did you get a possible explanation of defect, and without a doubt abnormal act and turn it into condolance of criminal behavior? I believe theres a differance between perversion and homosexuality. I think I just changed my mind about this law, these people just might need protection from some compasion filled Christians.
I am just trying to understand your belief.

So it is a defect and homosexuality is not normal behavior.
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post #27 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 04:49 PM
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He thought that everyone was called into priesthood and that all vocations are equal. If that were the case, why would Christ himself have chosen St. Peter to be the leader of his Church if he hadn't intended for there to be some kind of hierarchy? Can you honestly compare yourself to the Pope or to a priest? Someone who dedicates their entire life to preaching and praying, living a life of celibacy and simplicity and limiting their lives to few or no sins at all.
So you're saying a janitor is not as important in Gods' eye's as the Pope is? And that the Pope or priests have few or even no sins? When Jesus called His disciples why didn't he go to the Sanhedrin? After all, those were the religious professionals of the day! They MUST have been the most righteous people on earth excluding Jesus Himself! Oh wait... Jesus criticized them more than anybody else, how could that be?

Peter means "rock". I know I'm not gonna change your mind but for those who don't have preconceived notions here's my interpretation. Jesus asked His disciples "...and who do you say I am?" Peter said "the Son of God". Jesus replies, "your name means rock and on THIS rock will I build my church". It's pretty easy to see why you believe what you do but which makes more sense, to "build" the church on a mere human sinner or on the truth that Jesus is the Son of God? Why do you pray to saints? All christians are saints, why else do some letters start off "to the saints in Ephesus" etc? "There is one mediator between God and man, that is, Jesus Christ."

Martin Luther didn't start his own church. The church is the body of Christ, that is all the people who are christians. Those who followed his explanations of the Bible later formed a denomination which is sin. Jesus was not a denominationalist.

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How did you get a possible explanation of defect, and without a doubt abnormal act and turn it into condolance of criminal behavior?
So you admit it's abnormal? It follows that if one abnormal act is ok, why not another? Where do you draw the line?

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I think I just changed my mind about this law, these people just might need protection from some compasion filled Christians.
Nobody here has said anything violent, don't twist it to a personal attack.
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post #28 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 05:01 PM
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Wow Vicky! Nice write!
But please show me where in the Bible it says that I must confess my sins to a priest in order for my sins to be forgiven?.............my biggest problem with the Catholic church
Thanks...here's a site that I found to help my explanation from before. I would love to sit and explain it myself but I just got handed a stack of work to do. But it's basically everything that you would need to support the idea of "forgiveness"... there's isn't a specific passage where it states the sacrament of reconciliation but it is understood through Jesus' works and words and through the tradition of the apostles. It's not that Priests have the power to forgive, they only take on the act of the sacrament. It is God who is doing the actual forgiving and the priest only acts as the middle man. But read this, it explains it better than I can....

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm
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post #29 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 05:48 PM
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I read the first section of that site and they say that you must confess to a priest as they are the legitimate successors of the apostles who were ordained by Christ to be apostles. Here is the definition of apostle:

The word "Apostle", from the Greek apostello "to send forth", "to dispatch", has etymologically a very general sense. Apostolos (Apostle) means one who is sent forth, dispatched--in other words, who is entrusted with a mission, rather, a foreign mission.

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ALL
christians have been commanded to go to all the nations preaching Christ. That's what the "great commission" is. So we're all supposed to be apostles! Jesus died so that we no longer have to go to a priest, sacrifice an animal for the blood offering etc. As I said before, "there is one mediator between God and man..."

Please don't think I'm angry or hateful, I simply think the scriptures should be the final determination of right and wrong. Not the Pope, a priest or any council of people no matter how nice/smart etc. they are.
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post #30 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 07:20 PM
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I read the first section of that site and they say that you must confess to a priest as they are the legitimate successors of the apostles who were ordained by Christ to be apostles. Here is the definition of apostle:

The word "Apostle", from the Greek apostello "to send forth", "to dispatch", has etymologically a very general sense. Apostolos (Apostle) means one who is sent forth, dispatched--in other words, who is entrusted with a mission, rather, a foreign mission.

christians have been commanded to go to all the nations preaching Christ. That's what the "great commission" is. So we're all supposed to be apostles! Jesus died so that we no longer have to go to a priest, sacrifice an animal for the blood offering etc. As I said before, "there is one mediator between God and man..."

Please don't think I'm angry or hateful, I simply think the scriptures should be the final determination of right and wrong. Not the Pope, a priest or any council of people no matter how nice/smart etc. they are.
The person of the Janitor and the person of the Pope are two people just as important to God as anyone else for that matter. But their jobs are dedicated for other purposes. One dedicated his life to perhaps feeding his family and providing them with a better life and the other is a successor of Jesus Christ, called to dedicate his life in doing his works and upholding his Church. In the eyes of God they are the same but on Earth, they hold different purposes. I'm not saying one is more important than the other, they simply hold different purposes and they can't be compared. Nor am I saying that the Pope doesn't sin, but it is understood that he dedicates his life to not sin.fficeffice" />>>

Jesus had the right to criticize because wait he was the one and only GOD MAN, the Son of God, the third person to the Trinity. And why would he go to the Sanhedrin??? Jesus was sent to Earth in order to save us, meaning obviously there was something wrong. The Sanhedrin were the leaders of the Hebrew religion and Jesus was raised a Jew but the religion at the time was not giving the people enough hope and people were falling to sin increasingly. Very few were allowed to partake in the actual religion, people were told what to believe and given no explanation. Very few were even allowed to read the scriptures unless read to by a teacher. Jesus was sent to earth to save us, to give us hope. His view of God was one of a personal loving God which was very different than what was taught before. He called God, "Abba", which would be the equivalent of "dad" today. He wanted to encourage everyone to look at God in this manner, to turn to him and believe that they would be saved as long as they turned to him and followed in His ways. Jesus was then persecuted by the same Sanhedrin for preaching this and was killed because he loved us that much. This would now be the ultimate definition of Christian love, to love so much that you are willing to give your life. >>

"Peter you are my rock..." at this point Jesus appoints Peter as the head of his Church, thus a magisterium is created. We pray to the saints to pray for us, ergo, the Litany of the Saints. It is in conjunction with the belief that there is a communion of saints, meaning that we all share in the same soul of the Church and are all united by the same head which is Christ. We do not worship the saints in heaven, we pray to them, to pray for us in our journey to God.>>

You're right. Jesus is not denominational. He created the foundations of the one and only "universal" church, which is today The Roman Catholic Church. And who is to say that different denominations are a sin? Technically the Church will turn it's head, but they will never state that to believe otherwise is a sin. We are free to believe what we want and there is always the possibility that we all got it wrong. But who can say that for sure? >>
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post #31 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 07:34 PM
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the hierarchy of the Church and confession were established throughout Jesus's life and through the Apostles


It's not that Priests have the power to forgive, they only take on the act of the sacrament. It is God who is doing the actual forgiving and the priest only acts as the middle man

The hierachy of the church IS NOT what the catholic church has. It CANT be found anywhere in the bible. NOT to mention their TOTAL distortion of baptism. Peter was called the rock because of his strong Faith, thats why Jesus said he build his church on him and how the church would be built, those men preaching under persecutiion.

James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. NOTICE something missing? NOT confess your faults to a priest to act as your mediator!!

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post #32 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 07:54 PM
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The hierachy of the church IS NOT what the catholic church has. It CANT be found anywhere in the bible. NOT to mention their TOTAL distortion of baptism. Peter was called the rock because of his strong Faith, thats why Jesus said he build his church on him and how the church would be built, those men preaching under persecutiion.
Hierarchy meaning that it begins with the priest, then bishop, then archbishop, cardinal, then Pope. This is the hierarchy of the Church. It is not stated in the Bible literally but simply deduced from the appointment of Peter as the head of his Church. The Peter along with the others are all considered bishops, or archbishops since they too appointed followers to preach in certain areas.
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post #33 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 08:05 PM
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James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. NOTICE something missing? NOT confess your faults to a priest to act as your mediator!!
But it does mention confession which in Jesus' time was considered blasphemous. Who better to confess your sins to than someone who actually works for the Lord, has given a solemn vow to confidentiality. Would you walk next door to your neighbor, confess your sins and ask them to absolve you?
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post #34 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 08:25 PM
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But it does mention confession which in Jesus' time was considered blasphemous. Who better to confess your sins to than someone who actually works for the Lord, has given a solemn vow to confidentiality. Would you walk next door to your neighbor, confess your sins and ask them to absolve you?
Well the thing about this is if you are a true beleiver in Christ then YOU YOURSELF are a worker of the Lord. You should ask for forgiveness and confess your sins in prayer. That makes it so much more meaningful to God because you're speaking to him on a personal level. That, in itself, shows faith.

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post #35 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 09:14 PM
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Nor am I saying that the Pope doesn't sin, but it is understood that he dedicates his life to not sin.
Earlier you said...

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Someone who dedicates their entire life to preaching and praying, living a life of celibacy and simplicity and limiting their lives to few or no sins at all.
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One dedicated his life to perhaps feeding his family and providing them with a better life and the other is a successor of Jesus Christ, called to dedicate his life in doing his works and upholding his Church.
There are many ways to witness to the world and you can do that while being a janitor. Some of the most righteous people I've met had the most menial (in the worlds eyes) jobs. Construction workers, stay at home moms... you don't have to leave town to witness, there's people everywhere that need it. You want to be great in the kingdom of heaven? Be a servant here on earth.

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Jesus was raised a Jew but the religion at the time was not giving the people enough hope and people were falling to sin increasingly.
Wow. I'm almost speechless. Jesus came to fulfill the law. God didn't look down and say, "well, I guess my earlier plan didn't work, gonna have to try something else". No, that was His plan all along!

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"Peter you are my rock..." at this point Jesus appoints Peter as the head of his Church, thus a magisterium is created.
As you said, that was not explicit in the scriptures. Each one of us is accountable to every other christian. When there is sin in a brother/sister's life WE should go to them, if they don't repent we take 2-3 fellow christians and if they still don't repent take it before the church. It doesn't say go to a priest since they're in charge. You've conveniently ignored the passage I gave earlier. Christ is our mediator! Not a priest, Jewish or Catholic.

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But it does mention confession which in Jesus' time was considered blasphemous.
Source please?

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He created the foundations of the one and only "universal" church, which is today The Roman Catholic Church. And who is to say that different denominations are a sin? Technically the Church will turn it's head, but they will never state that to believe otherwise is a sin. We are free to believe what we want and there is always the possibility that we all got it wrong.
The word Catholic means universal but that doesn't mean it's the way. If you call a cat a dog it's still a cat. When one denomination won't work with another that's a sin. We are commanded to "be of one mind". Thankfully for us all our salvation doesn't depend on perfect doctrine. But I think that we're disagreeing on a critical point. We're not told to pray to anyone other than God. Catholicism has interposed a religious hierarchy that isn't biblical. The veil in the temple was "torn asunder" when Jesus died so that the people could reach God without a priest. To try to change it back is telling God He's got it wrong.
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post #36 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 10:03 PM
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But it does mention confession which in Jesus' time was considered blasphemous. Who better to confess your sins to than someone who actually works for the Lord, has given a solemn vow to confidentiality. Would you walk next door to your neighbor, confess your sins and ask them to absolve you?
They, NOR ANY priest has that power.!!!
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post #37 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-13-2005, 10:10 PM
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Hierarchy meaning that it begins with the priest, then bishop, then archbishop, cardinal, then Pope. This is the hierarchy of the Church. It is not stated in the Bible literally but simply deduced from the appointment of Peter as the head of his Church. The Peter along with the others are all considered bishops, or archbishops since they too appointed followers to preach in certain areas.


NO NO NO. The BIBLE tell us "Appoint ELDERS/bishops in every church", then deacons, these are the only positions of authority and then you have evangelist/preachers.
Titus 1:5
For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
Philip. 1:1
Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

NOW look at the QUALIFICATIONS for this office:

1 Tim. 3:2-7
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5(For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 6Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 7Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
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post #38 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-14-2005, 06:34 AM
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It is not stated in the Bible literally but simply deduced from the appointment of Peter as the head of his Church. The Peter along with the others are all considered bishops, or archbishops since they too appointed followers to preach in certain areas.
Peter was never appointed head of the Church.

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post #39 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-14-2005, 06:41 AM
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Peter means "rock". I know I'm not gonna change your mind but for those who don't have preconceived notions here's my interpretation. Jesus asked His disciples "...and who do you say I am?" Peter said "the Son of God". Jesus replies, "your name means rock and on THIS rock will I build my church". It's pretty easy to see why you believe what you do but which makes more sense, to "build" the church on a mere human sinner or on the truth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Your right, Jesus used the word rock twice in this passage, but he also used two different words. One was for the name Peter (petros, a piece of rock) and one was for rock (petra, a giant rock).

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post #40 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-14-2005, 12:48 PM Thread Starter
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The word Catholic means universal but that doesn't mean it's the way. If you call a cat a dog it's still a cat. When one denomination won't work with another that's a sin. We are commanded to "be of one mind". Thankfully for us all our salvation doesn't depend on perfect doctrine. But I think that we're disagreeing on a critical point. We're not told to pray to anyone other than God. Catholicism has interposed a religious hierarchy that isn't biblical. The veil in the temple was "torn asunder" when Jesus died so that the people could reach God without a priest. To try to change it back is telling God He's got it wrong.
I wish I had the knowledge and background to be able to take a stance on any one given point in this discussion. Unfortunately, I am not to that point yet. However, I have read each person's responce and this particular quote stands out to me above all others. It is stated, "But I think that we are disagreeing on a critical point." While I do argree that many of you do not share the exact same opinions, I don't feel this statement to be true. It would seem to me that the most important part of this conversation as a whole is that while opinions do differ, majority of you are arguing the same point in a different manor. Allow me to explain: Each person has their own opinions and ideas as to ther interpretation of the Bible. However, you each are saying, in your own ways, the most important parts of forgivness of sin are 1) leading a life with as little sin as possible, and 2) praying for forgivness when you do stumble. Some of you have a system on heichary that you believe to be true; others feel that any one man can pray directly to God and acheive the same end goal: forgiveness of sin. I don't see how you can feel you are disagreeing on a "crutial" detail, perhaps a minor detail, but nothing crutial.

If you are trying to build a puzzle, and one person starts with the borders while the other begins with shapes, you each may not understand exactly the reasons in which the other chooses their path, and you may even bump into eachother from time to time along the way. However, in the end,together you have made a beautiful puzzle, and somehow how you reached your goal it doesn't seem as important.
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post #41 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-14-2005, 02:38 PM
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this thread is exactly why I absolutely hate religion....
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post #42 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-14-2005, 02:40 PM
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this thread is exactly why I absolutely hate religion....
Don't hate: Appreciate!

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post #43 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-14-2005, 10:16 PM
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What if life itself is what drives you to hatred? Just a hypothetical.

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post #44 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-15-2005, 09:36 PM
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Hey everbody JC rode his bike to the theology forum and he brought adam with him, wow!

I'm a man. I can change, if I have to, I guess.
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post #45 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-16-2005, 12:52 AM
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hehe, i've lurked for a while, but mama always told me, that if i didn't have anything positive to post, don't post anything at all.

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post #46 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-2005, 12:33 PM
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MyRed03GT - I don't think you're quite right. I have no problem with one church singing modern praise/worship while next door they only sing old fashioned hymns. That's form, not function. There's plenty more examples and I agree with the other thread about denominations but there are some things a christian cannot compromise on.

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However, you each are saying, in your own ways, the most important parts of forgivness of sin are 1) leading a life with as little sin as possible, and 2) praying for forgivness when you do stumble.
No, that's not what I'm saying. Man's righteousness is as filthy rags! It is not our works that saves us, it is our faith. Yes, if you have faith you will also have works, but there is nothing we can do (other than believe) that will save us. Salvation is not a sliding scale where God meets you after you've done all you can. We are commanded to work and true Christians will do what we can... but it's not what saves us. If you disagree please show me Scripture to prove otherwise.

The first of the ten commandments says: "Thou shalt have no other Gods before Me". Again, if you can show me scripture where it tells us to pray to dead christians I'll change my position, 'til then I'm gonna call it idolatry.
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post #47 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-2005, 01:45 PM
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It is not our works that saves us, it is our faith. Yes, if you have faith you will also have works, but there is nothing we can do (other than believe) that will save us. Salvation is not a sliding scale where God meets you after you've done all you can. We are commanded to work and true Christians will do what we can... but it's not what saves us. If you disagree please show me Scripture to prove otherwise.
.
The question begs, WHAT DOES HE REQUIRE OF US to put ourselves in a right relationship with him. Christians know you have to be in Christ to be saved but how does one get there??
Please use scripture to answer above questions if possible, after all, it is Gods word and thus the authority on any issue.
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post #48 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-2005, 01:53 PM
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. Thats why nobody is saved by just faith or works. You must have both in unison with the grace of God to enter Heaven.
The only requirement for salvation is faith and faith alone. If you have the Faith, then your works will follow. So just by faith alone you are saved as was the theif on the cross when he died next to Jesus.
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post #49 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-2005, 02:21 PM
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The only requirement for salvation is faith and faith alone. If you have the Faith, then your works will follow. So just by faith alone you are saved as was the theif on the cross when he died next to Jesus.
Here is where im confused the BIBLE has many verses that say "this or that is required" some say faith, some say belief some say repentence and some say baptism, and some combine those above in some sorts?? In the end arent they all required? how do we know which one is more important???

See if you can follow me on this:

Grace is defined as UNMERITED FAVOR.

so there are no works that are good enough to merit grace. But the bible tells us that faith without works is a dead faith. SO while works are not enough it is apparent that Gods still expects us to do the works he has asked us to do to show our faith??? ie telling Abraham to offer Issac.... Does that make sense??

If thats true then what works does he expect of us??
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post #50 of 115 (permalink) Old 01-17-2005, 03:00 PM
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Righteousness Through Faith
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished– 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
Abraham Justified by Faith
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about–but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered. 8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”

9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! 11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. 12And he is also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.

13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, 15because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring–not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed–the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”[d] 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead–since he was about a hundred years old–and that Sarah's womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness–for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

Dead to Sin, Alive in Christ

1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin– 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

8Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. 10The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

11In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. 13Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. 14For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
Slaves to Righteousness
15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey–whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

19I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to everincreasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[b] Christ Jesus our Lord.
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