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post #1 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2004, 07:15 PM Thread Starter
 
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Why don't you believe in God?

Just curious as there are obviously some people in this forum who don't.
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post #2 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2004, 09:47 PM
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I follow a loose interpretation of Taoist beliefs, accepting that there is order to this universe, but that it does not necessarily come from a higher being. This order could be continuing probabilty, chance, circumstance, etc.

I used to accept that creationism was possible, but with a growing knowledge of evolution and the origins of life...it is seeming less and less possible. If there is a God, I believe he would have simply created the elements of this universe and then left it to its own devices. But that is unlikely too, in my mind.
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post #3 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-07-2004, 10:30 PM
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I always thought that "god" and "heaven" were for poeple that were afraid to die. showing them that since we all die they will go somewhere specail after this life. Or for poeple that struggle in life that have nothing or no one to turn to that god will always be there for them. In addition when they die they are promised a better life in heaven then they are here. Those are just some of my thoughts and what it boils down to is I just don't have faith. I belive you have one life make the best of it because you never know when its going to be gone.
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post #4 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-08-2004, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exlude
...I used to accept that creationism was possible, but with a growing knowledge of evolution and the origins of life...it is seeming less and less possible...
"growing knowledge of evolution"... evolution as it is taught now is a theory that even Darwin himself did not believe in. He regretted even suggesting it because of the rabbit trail it has gone down.
What is the proof of current evolutionary teachings? I have seen fossils of things that were only from the 1940's. Also, one old skull is a deformity of normal humans not proof of an existance of an entire race (ther would be many more skulls like it). There are still occurances of deformed humans being born and living until adulthood. I certainly hope that many years from now that someone is not totally fooled by their remains.

...Just some food for thought...
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post #5 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-08-2004, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exlude
I follow a loose interpretation of Taoist beliefs, accepting that there is order to this universe, but that it does not necessarily come from a higher being. This order could be continuing probabilty, chance, circumstance, etc.

I used to accept that creationism was possible, but with a growing knowledge of evolution and the origins of life...it is seeming less and less possible. If there is a God, I believe he would have simply created the elements of this universe and then left it to its own devices. But that is unlikely too, in my mind.

I can relate being that I use to be an atheist. Now I'm full blown creationist due to the evidence I've seen that completely rules out the notion of our existance coming to be by "chance."

Check this site out and I think it will help you on your thoughts about evolution.

http://www.designeduniverse.com/

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post #6 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 10:21 AM Thread Starter
 
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I have a some problems with evolution.

1. There has never been any documented plausible "missing link". (It is "missing" isn't it?)

2. I have been on a dig in Glen Rose where we uncovered from the river bank human footprints in and along dinosaur tracks. You can see lot's of prints in the river bed if the water level's low enough.

3. Carbon dating is unreliable. Period. And dating something to be as old as the level it's found at is akin to finding a pencil in shag carpet and saying that because the carpet was put in 20 years ago the pencil must be 20 years old.
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post #7 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by BAD RELIGION
I always thought that "god" and "heaven" were for poeple that were afraid to die. .
not true. i look forward to the day i die
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post #8 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by nailman
"growing knowledge of evolution"... evolution as it is taught now is a theory that even Darwin himself did not believe in. He regretted even suggesting it because of the rabbit trail it has gone down.
What is the proof of current evolutionary teachings? I have seen fossils of things that were only from the 1940's. Also, one old skull is a deformity of normal humans not proof of an existance of an entire race (ther would be many more skulls like it). There are still occurances of deformed humans being born and living until adulthood. I certainly hope that many years from now that someone is not totally fooled by their remains.

...Just some food for thought...
For your "food for though": National Geographic, November 2004 "Was Darwin Wrong?" I recommend you read it, it's a good, recent article. You guys are looking the wrong places to understand evolution, it's not ALL in the fossils and the "missing link". Read up on the "last common ancestor" and the work of scientists such as Steven Miller. The theory of evolution ranks up there with the theory of relativity, conservation of mass, etc....it's no loose theory.

When reading about the last common ancestory look for a few key points: common nucleotide sequences for amino acids, common processes of respiration, common use of pigmentation to absorb light, vetigial organs, etc.

Last edited by exlude; 12-09-2004 at 12:44 PM.
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post #9 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by x_redhotcobra_x
I can relate being that I use to be an atheist. Now I'm full blown creationist due to the evidence I've seen that completely rules out the notion of our existance coming to be by "chance."

Check this site out and I think it will help you on your thoughts about evolution.

http://www.designeduniverse.com/
That website seems deadset on saying all evolutionists believe there is/was no God. Darwin himself asserted that the creation of the original material could have been from a higher being (as I mentioned in my first post).

Lmao @ them calling nucleotide mutation "magic".
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post #10 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 03:02 PM Thread Starter
 
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If there was a signifigant difference genetically between animals and humans we wouldn't be able to digest each other.

Just as a painting suggests there was a painter and a building suggests there was a builder this earth suggests there must be a creator. Everything fits so well I feel it takes more faith to believe in evolution. So many things are interdependent that you couldn't have one organism evolving without the other proceeding at the same pace.

Before proceeding further in this discussion we should define "evolution".
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post #11 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by JKDGabe
If there was a signifigant difference genetically between animals and humans we wouldn't be able to digest each other.

Just as a painting suggests there was a painter and a building suggests there was a builder this earth suggests there must be a creator. Everything fits so well I feel it takes more faith to believe in evolution. So many things are interdependent that you couldn't have one organism evolving without the other proceeding at the same pace.

Before proceeding further in this discussion we should define "evolution".
Please do read up about the last common ancestor, it will help you understand better the interdependence and coevolution. Unfortunately this "faith" so many people see, is more often a lack of understanding of evolution.

Our simlarities in respiration do not dictate our ability to consume each other, it's more the atomic make up of this universe. That, however, is something completely dependent on itself...not a higher being. Where the higher being could come into play is the creation of the atomic make up...but not the creation of humans from dirt, etc. When I get home I will give my definition of evolution and the 4 means of macro evolution and 6 means of natural selection.
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post #12 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 03:44 PM Thread Starter
 
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This from dictionary.com

ev·o·lu·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (v-lshn, v-)
n.
A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form. See Synonyms at development.

The process of developing.
Gradual development.
Biology.
Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.
The historical development of a related group of organisms; phylogeny.
A movement that is part of a set of ordered movements.
Mathematics. The extraction of a root of a quantity.


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Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.
Insofar as that goes I can agree. If you put a Nordic descendant in africa without any modern conveniences he'll most likely die because he's not as well suited to survive, thus he will leave a minute impact on the gene pool. It's why the blacks did well in the heat of Africa (they weren't in South Africa except in the summer, they left it to the bushmen - too cold for their liking) and Anglo Saxons did well in the summer. But that is not proof that there was any genetic mutation. "Adaptation within the gene pool" yes, mutation no.

How can you say the fossil record is the "wrong" place to look? I'd agree it's not the only place, but wrong? Evidence is evidence.

I read the article in NG but they only had an excerpt online. He went on and on about how just because it's a theory doesn't mean it's wrong. True, but you could apply the same argument to creationism. If you have the full article please post a link.
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post #13 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 03:53 PM Thread Starter
 
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I ran a google search on "last common ancestor and came up with 24,100 results. That + steven miller however yielded 0 results. Do me a favor and provide a link so we're on the same page.

I didn't say the ability to digest was because we breathe in a similar fashion. Genesis says that man was created from the dust of the earth. God created the earth, then everything else... makes sense to me that it would be based on the same thing.
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post #14 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by JKDGabe
I ran a google search on "last common ancestor and came up with 24,100 results. That + steven miller however yielded 0 results. Do me a favor and provide a link so we're on the same page.

I didn't say the ability to digest was because we breathe in a similar fashion. Genesis says that man was created from the dust of the earth. God created the earth, then everything else... makes sense to me that it would be based on the same thing.
Sorry, we are using different forms of the same word. Respiration in most creatures on earth is the conversion of C6H12O6 (glucose) into CO2, and the transfer of the chemical bond energy of glucose into the chemical bond energy of ATP through oxidative phosphorylation. It involves a little more than just breathing :P

I don't have any links off hand. Steven Miller started the first in a large series of experiments that formed amino acids and nucleotides from elements that would have existed in the prebiotic world with only the tranference of electrons. This shows how RNA and supplemental proteins could have been built simply by certain elements being introduced to energy.

Last common ancestor is a theory that takes place after Miller's work. Last being the most recent ancestor that all forms of life on Earth shared (very likely the cyanobacteria aka bluegreen algae or a mutation there of).
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post #15 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by JKDGabe
How can you say the fossil record is the "wrong" place to look? I'd agree it's not the only place, but wrong? Evidence is evidence.

I read the article in NG but they only had an excerpt online. He went on and on about how just because it's a theory doesn't mean it's wrong. True, but you could apply the same argument to creationism. If you have the full article please post a link.
Please read the second half of that sentence, I said it's not ALL in the fossils.

I don't have a copy of the full article online, only in the magazine...and it's too long for me to type up.
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post #16 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 07:16 PM
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This has always been a tough question, but all i have to say in response is why DO you believe in god. For my i have never felt like there was a need for something of that nature. I was not brought up in a religious household, so i was free to form my own ideas about it. For a while i went to church every sunday and even sometimes on wednesday, but i didn't feel like it was doing anything for me. I tried to have an open mind and think about what everyone was saying, but it just didn't seem logical to me. Personally for myself i have felt better now than i ever have, and i don't feel like someone is watching over my every step, judging me for everything i do. I look at history and even before the times of crist and what not these primitive people used a "god" as a way to explain the things they did not understand. I am not trying to say that god is not real, because to a mass majority of people to them he/she is and it helps them, so more power to them. In a weird sort of comparison god is like a food. Some people may love it and swear by it, but there is always someone that is going to dislike it and not need it. Some people need god in their lives to make it through, but others can live without it.

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post #17 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 07:46 PM Thread Starter
 
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I believe in God because it makes the most sense. Evolution doesn't add up to me and that leaves what? I have personally experienced His love and involvement in my life.

I will say that going to church won't get you close to God. I've been to hundreds of churches throughout my life and want little to do with them. People have a habit of making things an established routine and setting it in stone no matter what it is, religion or anything else. I don't have religion, I have a relationship with God and His son Jesus.

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i don't feel like someone is watching over my every step, judging me for everything i do
Neither do I. At least, not the judging part. I'm thankful that He is watching over me but living in fear? Nope. My sins have been forgiven.

So what I hear you saying is God is a relative concept...?
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post #18 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by JKDGabe
I believe in God because it makes the most sense. Evolution doesn't add up to me and that leaves what? I have personally experienced His love and involvement in my life.

I will say that going to church won't get you close to God. I've been to hundreds of churches throughout my life and want little to do with them. People have a habit of making things an established routine and setting it in stone no matter what it is, religion or anything else. I don't have religion, I have a relationship with God and His son Jesus.



Neither do I. At least, not the judging part. I'm thankful that He is watching over me but living in fear? Nope. My sins have been forgiven.

So what I hear you saying is God is a relative concept...?
You do realize that God and evolution can coexist, right? I'm not trying to be offense, but maybe evolution doesn't add up to you because you don't wholly understand it? It's much more complex than Genesis, that's for sure...
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post #19 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by JKDGabe
So what I hear you saying is God is a relative concept...?
thats a good way to put it. I think he is something manifested in the minds of the people who believe in him. So to say that he dosen't exist isn't true cause in the minds of millions he is alive.

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post #20 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 09:22 PM
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I to believe in God. Though Darwin admits that his theory was faulty, even if his theory or anyone elses was true, I would still have to believe God made it happen. God put this earth together somehow, kudos to those who figure out how God did it. That is the way I see it anyway.
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post #21 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 10:32 PM
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i dont belive. cause i'm not a sheep

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post #22 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 10:39 PM Thread Starter
 
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You do realize that God and evolution can coexist, right?
That depends on the definition of evolution. If as a christian I claim to believe the bible then I can't take evolution as taught in public school at face value. Genesis states "and there was evening, and there was morning, the x day". There was a literal 6 day creation period. I do believe that there is evolution within the species... but not to create a new species. Survival of the fittest.

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I think he is something manifested in the minds of the people who believe in him.
So how far would you take that? Is there anything that's "real"?

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maybe evolution doesn't add up to you because you don't wholly understand it?
The timeline of evolution has dinosaurs way before man right? They didn't walk the earth together. Obviously there are still some "dinosaurs" such as komodo dragons but they're more of an anomaly. So how is it that there are dino and man footprints together? Having studied evolution I'm having more trouble understanding atheism. I think it boils down to wanting to be the boss, refusing any responsibility to a higher power.
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post #23 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 10:41 PM
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i dont belive. cause i'm not a sheep

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post #24 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 10:42 PM Thread Starter
 
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i dont belive. cause i'm not a sheep
Brilliant explanation. Thank you for enriching us intellectually. However, I was hoping for an explanation of why you don't "follow the crowd".
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post #25 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 11:04 PM
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cause look at all the child molesting preist and pastor taking money from old people in the name of god. Praying to god wont get your bills paid working will

Just cause you got to church doesnt make you a better person.

I dont belive anything in the bible its old story book to keep people in check and give them reasons to not murder, lie and steal.

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post #26 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-09-2004, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by JKDGabe
That depends on the definition of evolution. If as a christian I claim to believe the bible then I can't take evolution as taught in public school at face value. Genesis states "and there was evening, and there was morning, the x day". There was a literal 6 day creation period. I do believe that there is evolution within the species... but not to create a new species. Survival of the fittest.

The timeline of evolution has dinosaurs way before man right? They didn't walk the earth together. Obviously there are still some "dinosaurs" such as komodo dragons but they're more of an anomaly. So how is it that there are dino and man footprints together? Having studied evolution I'm having more trouble understanding atheism. I think it boils down to wanting to be the boss, refusing any responsibility to a higher power.
It does not depend on your definition of evolution, that stays the same. It is your translation of the bible. Many christians take the Bible as a book of stories, meanings, morals, etc instead of a history book.

New species arive all the time, it's a fact of nature (we have seen it happen with plants in modern times). I would like to see your dinosaur foot prints with human foot prints that were created at the same time, that would be quite a marvel of modern archeology. What species of dinosaur was it? What year did you speculate the impressions to have been made? (Fyi, modern "dinosaurs" are less of an anomoly than you think...there are many plants, insects, and animals that have been around from prehistoric times.)

First, to define species (known as BCS: Biological Species Concepts) this is the definition most often used in legal and scientific context alike: Species - "Groups of potentially interbreeding populations which are reproductively isolated from other such groups."

We have two models of such speciation in the modern world:
1) Allopatric speciation- Speciation that occurs due to a physical barrier. There is no gene migration between the two populations preventing blending of the gene pool. Given the right conditions, the right mutations, the right genetic drift, speciation can occur between the two.

2) Sympatric speciation- This occurs mostly in plants where due to errors in mitotic or meiotic division, a gamete ends up with more chromosomes than it was supposed to have. The plant can then either fertilize itself or fertilize with another plants "normal" gamete. The offspring will then be a new, fertile, species with a different chromosome count.

Speciation happens.

I wonder how in depth your study of evolution was when you do not understand molecular evolution (I gather this, because it would be impossible to understand molecular evolution without knowing the biochemical processes of photosynthesis and respiration).
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post #27 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 12:00 AM
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damn well said

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post #28 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by whiteboy
cause look at all the child molesting preist and pastor taking money from old people in the name of god. Praying to god wont get your bills paid working will.
Yeah, the prisons are just chock full of law braking christian citizens.

Praying has paid bills, praying has gotten new cars, praying has healed the sick, praying has seen the lost saved.

Its called faith Jeremy, everyone one has a measure of faith. You just choose to put your faith in man. You have faith in your boss that when you go to work he is going to pay you. If you are out of work you have nothing to put your faith in. I have faith that God will see to my needs whether I have a job or not, and being out of work for 11 months I can say that I made it just fine without loosing anything.

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post #29 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 08:53 AM
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Yeah, the prisons are just chock full of law braking christian citizens.

Praying has paid bills, praying has gotten new cars, praying has healed the sick, praying has seen the lost saved.
Well, actually, they are. It's just at that point most of the law abiding Christians do not consider the incarcerated Christians as Christians any longer, no matter their beliefs.

Praying pays bills when the two coincide. When praying doesn't work, "it was God's plan." Seems more like chance and circumstance to me.
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post #30 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 10:04 AM
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I think the bible is just anceint literature.
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post #31 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by whiteboy
cause look at all the child molesting preist and pastor taking money from old people in the name of god. Praying to god wont get your bills paid working will

Just cause you got to church doesnt make you a better person.

I dont belive anything in the bible its old story book to keep people in check and give them reasons to not murder, lie and steal.
You are exactly right. Just because a person claims to be something, does not mean he is that something. That would make them a liar, and/or a con (which is lying to achieve a goal.) Some priests got into that proffession just to be in that place of opportunity to take advantage of others. Even though I do not agree with all Catholic teachings - Please don't judge all Catholics or priests because of what a small number who claim to be that have done. The same applies to preachers. God does leave us to our own free will. He did warn us to beware of false teachers and leaders in the Bible. (Probably including those mentioned priests and preachers.)
Also Christians are not perfect, just forgiven based on their belief and confession. They still have problems, are tempted, and have strong feelings and emotions. These can cause anyone, except Christ, Christian or not to do bad things.
Going to church absolutely does not make anyone a better person. It's the relationship with God that does, though. A person needs to go to church to interact with other Christians. That is where a person can get the opportunity to build this relationship without feeling out of place. Just like an earthly friend, you may not feel comfortable around them until you have been around them for awhile.
As far as the Bible being a book of stories: It very well may be that, but almost every (like 90%) "story" in that book is recorded elsewhere in "non-Christian" works of history that were recorded during the same time period.
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post #32 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by whiteboy
cause look at all the child molesting preist and pastor taking money from old people in the name of god. Praying to god wont get your bills paid working will

Just cause you got to church doesnt make you a better person.

I dont belive anything in the bible its old story book to keep people in check and give them reasons to not murder, lie and steal.
I pretty much agree, but something created everything. Call it God or whatever, but I thank it everyday that I am the way I am and can work. I thank "god" that I have my legs, arms, eyes, ears, etc......
Sometimes it is nescessary to create God even if there were no God.
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post #33 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by exlude
For your "food for though": National Geographic, November 2004 "Was Darwin Wrong?" I recommend you read it, it's a good, recent article. You guys are looking the wrong places to understand evolution, it's not ALL in the fossils and the "missing link". Read up on the "last common ancestor" and the work of scientists such as Steven Miller. The theory of evolution ranks up there with the theory of relativity, conservation of mass, etc....it's no loose theory.

When reading about the last common ancestory look for a few key points: common nucleotide sequences for amino acids, common processes of respiration, common use of pigmentation to absorb light, vetigial organs, etc.
I like how this theory changes base to fit the situation. Sure there are going to be similarities between species. There are also going to be adaptions to outside forces. I know a black man who is married to a white woman. Their offspring do not constitute evolution as it is taught in the public schools. Nor does the cross breeding of two plants (even if it was with a mutated one). Now if you can show me clinical proof of a living breathing omnivour spawned from two plants and growing from roots, to then break free and walk around to find it's next meal; then you will have something.
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post #34 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 10:34 AM
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Oh, yeah , I almost forgot: It does take an active pursuit to have any friendship. If I just show up at "John's" house with "Bob" but I never interact with "John", I will not be a friend of "John's" even though I am at his house on a regular basis.
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post #35 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nailman
I like how this theory changes base to fit the situation. Sure there are going to be similarities between species. There are also going to be adaptions to outside forces. I know a black man who is married to a white woman. Their offspring do not constitute evolution as it is taught in the public schools. Nor does the cross breeding of two plants (even if it was with a mutated one). Now if you can show me clinical proof of a living breathing omnivour spawned from two plants and growing from roots, to then break free and walk around to find it's next meal; then you will have something.
We have species evolving into new species all the time, that doesn't mean they have to change diets to do so.

You either were taught the wrong thing about what evolution was or don't understand it. How do two people of the same species (with different skin pigmentation) having offspring constitute as evolution in and of itself? Just because two plants crossbreed does not necessarily they are going to make a new species, but given the right circumstances as I shortly discribed earlier, it has happened. Read the Nat. Geo. article, there is a great example considering the evolution of whales.

Please elaborate on how the theory "changes to fit the situation"...
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post #36 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 11:03 AM
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Because I choose not to. I'm not going to write a novel about it. I get by in my life with the simpleness of "What goes around comes around."
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post #37 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 11:10 AM
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my outlook is that if you "choose" a god you are basically saying that everyone elses choice is wrong. How can those millions of people be wrong and you are right?

because you were raised that way?
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post #38 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-10-2004, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClockwrkOrangeS4
my outlook is that if you "choose" a god you are basically saying that everyone elses choice is wrong. How can those millions of people be wrong and you are right?

because you were raised that way?
Sam Kinison - "Good Answer....good answer....I'll be watching you."
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post #39 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-12-2004, 03:11 PM
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So if YOU choose not to have a god, then that is allright. But it is not O.K. for someone ELSE to make their own choice? Sounds like a double standard.

As it is said... If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

BTW there are millions of Christians, millions of Muslims, millions of Hindus, millions of Pagans, etc... All of whom think their way is the right way.

Christianity is the only faith where you are supposed to have a personal relationship with your god.
Most people do not like Christianity because to do so would mean they have to admit that there is a higher power than themselves.
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post #40 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-12-2004, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exlude
We have species evolving into new species all the time, that doesn't mean they have to change diets to do so.

You either were taught the wrong thing about what evolution was or don't understand it. How do two people of the same species (with different skin pigmentation) having offspring constitute as evolution in and of itself? Just because two plants crossbreed does not necessarily they are going to make a new species, but given the right circumstances as I shortly discribed earlier, it has happened. Read the Nat. Geo. article, there is a great example considering the evolution of whales.

Please elaborate on how the theory "changes to fit the situation"...
Sorry about being vague or condescending, here is what I meant to convey:
In most cases that which you describe is adaptation. So, of course new species are found or made frequently.

If evolution means: "Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species."
Then most of the people I know agree and call it adaptation. It's this whole ["grandfather was the scum on a Louisiana swamp", but just a few generations later - walla - and Einstein is born] thing I cannot see a basis for.
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post #41 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-13-2004, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nailman
So if YOU choose not to have a god, then that is allright. But it is not O.K. for someone ELSE to make their own choice? Sounds like a double standard.

As it is said... If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

BTW there are millions of Christians, millions of Muslims, millions of Hindus, millions of Pagans, etc... All of whom think their way is the right way.

Christianity is the only faith where you are supposed to have a personal relationship with your god.
Most people do not like Christianity because to do so would mean they have to admit that there is a higher power than themselves.
I didn't say it wasn't "allright" if you choose to pray to something/someone. Please show me anything that makes you think I did.

Here's the irony. You choose to have a god and think that everyone that chooses NOT to have one, or choose one that isn't the same as yours and it's not allright and they are damned for all eternity.
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post #42 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-13-2004, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nailman
It's this whole ["grandfather was the scum on a Louisiana swamp", but just a few generations later - walla - and Einstein is born] thing I cannot see a basis for.
Who honestly thinks that any evolutionist believes it happened in "just a few generations"?
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post #43 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-13-2004, 08:40 AM
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It has been very hard for me to keep my mouth shut in this thread. But I must fight the urge.

Disclaimer:
No other posters were flamed, ridiculed, persecuted, belittled, berated, judged or otherwise in the making of the above-posted reply. It is with respect all are asked to observe this and to provide the same courtesy bestowed upon those who have posted and those who will post. Yada, Yada, doublespeak and so forth!
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post #44 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-13-2004, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonDog
It has been very hard for me to keep my mouth shut in this thread. But I must fight the urge.
Go for it.
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post #45 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-13-2004, 11:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ClockwrkOrangeS4
I didn't say it wasn't "allright" if you choose to pray to something/someone. Please show me anything that makes you think I did.
Earlier you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClockwrkOrangeS4
Here's the irony. You choose to have a god and think that everyone that chooses NOT to have one, or choose one that isn't the same as yours and it's not allright and they are damned for all eternity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClockwrkOrangeS4
my outlook is that if you "choose" a god you are basically saying that everyone elses choice is wrong. How can those millions of people be wrong and you are right?

because you were raised that way?
Actually, I haven't said anything about the affect of someone elses religious (or lack of) choice. But, you are right - that is what is taught in almost all religions.

I did not think you actually presupposed to know exactly what I was thinking (or "basically saying"). I thought you were using it as a figure of speech. You also added the right and wrong clause, not me. I try to avoid the accusation that someone is wrong in a discussion because if both parties are open minded, then it will be apparent which party is right. I am just telling my view and looking for your response without trying to guess yours, or demean you in any way, so I can have a decent conversation with you and possibly learn something (hopefully). I just want to understand where people are coming from (as was the thread topic).
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post #46 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-13-2004, 11:40 AM Thread Starter
 
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I'm very short on time, go to Creation Evidence Museum for info on man and dinosaurs walking the earth together. This is the museum I worked for/with on the digs.
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post #47 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-13-2004, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKDGabe
I'm very short on time, go to Creation Evidence Museum for info on man and dinosaurs walking the earth together. This is the museum I worked for/with on the digs.
Bah, I was hoping you were with a more moderate group.

"The purpose or purposes for which the corporation is organized are to operate a museum for educational and scientific display of creation evidence, to sponsor paleontological and archaeological excavations attendant to these purposes, to buy, sell, lease, own and operate personal and real property, and to engage in such other activities as corporations may lawfully engage in under the Texas Business Corporation Act."

Not with an agenda like that.... Let me read and I will get back to you.
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post #48 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-13-2004, 11:50 AM
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Looking through their "facts" of creationism, I find several points that are easily disputed...and this is with my rather limited knowledge of geology as compared to biochemistry. I also couldn't find any testing/research on dinosaur and human prints together. I did, however, find the arguments about sedimentary layers not being definitive to time period. (Which I do believe to be partially true) But that theory given easily argues against your find.

Last edited by exlude; 12-13-2004 at 11:57 AM.
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post #49 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-13-2004, 01:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nailman
Earlier you said:




Actually, I haven't said anything about the affect of someone elses religious (or lack of) choice. But, you are right - that is what is taught in almost all religions.

I did not think you actually presupposed to know exactly what I was thinking (or "basically saying"). I thought you were using it as a figure of speech. You also added the right and wrong clause, not me. I try to avoid the accusation that someone is wrong in a discussion because if both parties are open minded, then it will be apparent which party is right. I am just telling my view and looking for your response without trying to guess yours, or demean you in any way, so I can have a decent conversation with you and possibly learn something (hopefully). I just want to understand where people are coming from (as was the thread topic).
the "you" I was referring to wasn't to mean "you" as an individual, but more of a collective.

Just seems to me that Christians are the first to point out that if you don't agree with their beliefs you are a heathen. Followed closely by the same people trying to convert you to their beliefs.
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post #50 of 93 (permalink) Old 12-13-2004, 01:32 PM
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actually, Muslim leaders refer to non muslims as infidels. And are very pointed about it. Maybe the regular practicioner is not as vocal. Compared to them, Christians are moderate!
But for real, if you want to go to a church where you will not hear anything like that, P.M. me and I can get you hooked up. Not necessarily to the church I attend, although that is possible if you want to go to G.P. We believe that God is the one who will move on His own behalf and He alone will judge who is heathen. We are not here to judge people. We are here only to worship Him and be a support group for each other.
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