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post #1 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-01-2004, 09:31 AM Thread Starter
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What is Gods role on earth?

Forensix's statement about "god helps those who helps themselves" brought this thought to mind.

I personally believe that God puts you here and that's that. I don't think Satan or God have ANY, and I mean ANY role on the earth and the way things go here. In the bible it states after the great flood that god would never again mess with mankind.

I believe that life is a test for the afterlife. What you do and who you are here determines where you end up, end of story. God isn't the reason you got a raise, and Satan isn't the reason you got fired or you lost a loved one.
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post #2 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-01-2004, 02:55 PM
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post #3 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-01-2004, 05:51 PM
 
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When quoting something it's best to provide chapter and verse, that way we can agree on exactly what we're debating.
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post #4 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-01-2004, 07:17 PM
 
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there is some truth in your comments but really very little...

What scripture do you speak of about God nor Satan "messing" with us here on earth?

What are you referencing when you speak about an afterlife?
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post #5 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-01-2004, 08:23 PM
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God has already done his part, we just have to recieve by faith what God has already given to us. The Bible lists what God has done for us ie. healings, prospering financially, ect., and God has given us the tools to know how to recieve them. Many Christians don't have an understanding of how much God loves them, and they think that they have to be a good person or read the Bible all day to recieve what God has given them. That is one of the biggest problems why peoples prayers don't get answered. You don't have to perform good deeds for God to move, God has already moved, you just have to believe. When you asked Jesus in your heart to be your Lord and Savior we didn't have to perform good deeds to recieve that blessing, it is no different with anything else you believe for.
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post #6 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-01-2004, 09:14 PM
 
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Why don't you receive? Because you don't ask. And when you do ask, you ask wrongfully.

God shall provide for all your needs according to His riches in glory.

Stangtamer, do you believe in prosperity theology?
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post #7 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-01-2004, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by JKDGabe
Why don't you receive? Because you don't ask. And when you do ask, you ask wrongfully.

God shall provide for all your needs according to His riches in glory.

Stangtamer, do you believe in prosperity theology?
I'm not real sure what you mean on "prosperity theology". But, I believe what the Bible says, and it says that I should prosper in all areas of my life.
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post #8 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-01-2004, 09:54 PM
 
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it says that I should prosper in all areas of my life.
You're probably thinking of James 1.

There is no doubt that God wants us to be happy. And there's no doubt in my mind that prayer works. There are times that we get material possessions over and above our needs. But this doesn't mean we get whatever we ask for...

What do you think of the martyrs? Did they somehow screw up? The apostles didn't have alot of earthly goods, was it because they didn't ask? Paul had a physical affliction, probably bad eyesight and he says he prayed to be healed but it didn't happen, why not? Or were all their sufferings for the good of the kingdom?
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post #9 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-01-2004, 10:48 PM
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Originally Posted by JKDGabe
You're probably thinking of James 1.

There is no doubt that God wants us to be happy. And there's no doubt in my mind that prayer works. There are times that we get material possessions over and above our needs. But this doesn't mean we get whatever we ask for...

What do you think of the martyrs? Did they somehow screw up? The apostles didn't have alot of earthly goods, was it because they didn't ask? Paul had a physical affliction, probably bad eyesight and he says he prayed to be healed but it didn't happen, why not? Or were all their sufferings for the good of the kingdom?

Paul didn't pray to be healed and it not come to pass. Many people misunderstand the "Pauls thorn in his flesh" or where Paul "Wrote in big letter". Paul went to God three times about his thorn in his flesh, and God said, his grace should be sufficient. The thorn in his flesh was not a real thorn, it was a figure of speach for the persecution Paul recieved for being a Christian. If you look at any of the chapters/letters Paul wrote you will notice that they are very long letters. They didn't have type writers or a #2 pencil back then either, so ofcoarse the letters are going to be big very big. If you were to take out a peice of paper and rewrite one of Pauls Chapters/Letters it would probably take up two spiral note books.lol

Jesus told the Apostles to give everything they had away and follow him.

The Bible says, "By his stripes ye were healed". "Were" being the key word. Jesus healed us 2000 years ago. We aren't fighting to get healed, we're fighting because we are already healed. We are all healed we just have to recieve it by faith. If we do not get healed it is not Gods fault. To many people are to quick to blame God because they didn't get healed, when the reason was their own lack of faith. Usually the biggest excuse for someone not getting healed is "Well, I guess it just wasn't Gods will.", I don't understand how people can say that with all of the scripture to back up the fact that it is Gods will to heal. People need to learn to accept their own failures instead of blaming God. Everyone Jesus touched was healed, and Jesus said, that we to shall do these things, yet more abundantly. There are different levels of faith. Most people will not practice there faith when they get a Cold, but when someone gets Cancer they jump in and try to believe for them to be healed. Then they get all upset because they didn't see a healing come to pass. If you can't have enough faith to believe God to take care of a Cold, how can you believe for someone to be healed of Cancer? If people could understand Gods kind of Love toward us they would know it is Gods will to heal everytime.
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post #10 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-02-2004, 06:59 AM
 
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I don't believe Paul's thorn in the flesh was spiritual. He rejoiced in persecution.

2Co 12:7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!
2Co 12:8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.
2Co 12:9 And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

I don't see how that can be interpreted as anything other than a physical affliction. I don't remember the ch&v but Jesus healed a man who had a lifelong affliction but before He did His disciples asked, "Lord, who committed the sin, him or his parents?" He said "neither, it was so the power of God would be revealed through him". It was not the man's lack of faith that prevented him from being healed sooner and I'm pretty sure Paul had enough faith yet there is no record of him being healed. Physical problems can be good for us if we trust in God.
People say "God wants you to be healthy, wealthy and wise" but I say God wants us to grow in grace and mature spiritually and to that end we sometimes have problems. I agree with you when you say that the victory has already been won and we're here as training for the next life. Boot camp is not designed to be easy for the recruits.

I pm'd you btw.
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post #11 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-02-2004, 07:14 AM
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First of all I would like to say that of course God has a role here on earth, otherwise none of us would be here. Yes, He did destroy by a flood, but to say that God would never again mess with mankind is wrong. If that were true, He wouldn't have sent His Son Christ Jesus to save mankind. God created each and everyone of us because He loves us and He loves us so much that He wants us to spend eternity with Him and He sent His perfect Son as a living sacrifice so that we would have a doorway to Him.

As far as what we do here determines where we spend eternity - you are absolutely right. However, it is not about works - it is about accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. If you do not accept Jesus then you will have no way to enter Heaven as Jesus is the ONLY doorway to eternal life with Him.

Yes, Satan has some power here - some being the key word. Right now the Holy Spirit intercedes for us and is always with us and is keeping Satan at bay. But one day the Holy Spirit will be taken from this earth when Jesus comes and takes all the Christians with Him (the Rapture). The Holy Spirit will be taken with us because Jesus promised a "Comforter" would always be with us. This will allow Satan to reign over everyone "left behind" and evil will run rampant for 7 years. Many will become Christians during this time, but many won't.

I agree with many posts on here. Faith is the deciding factor. However, not all of your prayers are answered the way you always want them to be answered. God can answer yes, no or not at all. It is those not at all answers that are hardest to deal with, but sometimes God wants to see how badly you want something. I know a wonderful lady who prayed for her husband for over 20 years, that he would stop his detrimental lifestyle and come back to church and become a Christian. She prayed for him everyday, and over 20 years later - her prayer was answered and he has been on fire for Jesus since that time - so her prayer was answered after she showed God how much she wanted it.

The toughest thing to remember is that God sees the past, present and future all at once. He therefore sees everything we are going through or will go through at once so He knows how everything will work out. I know for a fact that as I look back at my life (even before I became a Christian) that He was with me and was watching over me. Did I deserve it - NO, but He loved me so much and He knew one day I would accept His Son into my heart and knowing this He watched over me and took care of me.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son and whosoever shall believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life!!!!
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post #12 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-02-2004, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by JKDGabe
I don't believe Paul's thorn in the flesh was spiritual. He rejoiced in persecution.

2Co 12:7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!
2Co 12:8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.
2Co 12:9 And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

I don't see how that can be interpreted as anything other than a physical affliction. I don't remember the ch&v but Jesus healed a man who had a lifelong affliction but before He did His disciples asked, "Lord, who committed the sin, him or his parents?" He said "neither, it was so the power of God would be revealed through him". It was not the man's lack of faith that prevented him from being healed sooner and I'm pretty sure Paul had enough faith yet there is no record of him being healed. Physical problems can be good for us if we trust in God.
People say "God wants you to be healthy, wealthy and wise" but I say God wants us to grow in grace and mature spiritually and to that end we sometimes have problems. I agree with you when you say that the victory has already been won and we're here as training for the next life. Boot camp is not designed to be easy for the recruits.

I pm'd you btw.
My pastor preaches on Paul often as his teachings are so important especially for this day and age. He preaches that Paul's affliction was to keep him humble - that in being afflicted he would remember he was human and what his purpose was - that his role was to preach and spread the Gospel the good news of Christ Jesus.
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post #13 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-02-2004, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by poopnut2
In the bible it states after the great flood that god would never again mess with mankind.
If you were to actually read Genisis 9 then you will see how untrue this statement really is. He said He would never send another flood to destroy the earth, period.

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post #14 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-02-2004, 08:41 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lisaz28
First of all I would like to say that of course God has a role here on earth, otherwise none of us would be here. Yes, He did destroy by a flood, but to say that God would never again mess with mankind is wrong. If that were true, He wouldn't have sent His Son Christ Jesus to save mankind. God created each and everyone of us because He loves us and He loves us so much that He wants us to spend eternity with Him and He sent His perfect Son as a living sacrifice so that we would have a doorway to Him.

As far as what we do here determines where we spend eternity - you are absolutely right. However, it is not about works - it is about accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. If you do not accept Jesus then you will have no way to enter Heaven as Jesus is the ONLY doorway to eternal life with Him.

Yes, Satan has some power here - some being the key word. Right now the Holy Spirit intercedes for us and is always with us and is keeping Satan at bay. But one day the Holy Spirit will be taken from this earth when Jesus comes and takes all the Christians with Him (the Rapture). The Holy Spirit will be taken with us because Jesus promised a "Comforter" would always be with us. This will allow Satan to reign over everyone "left behind" and evil will run rampant for 7 years. Many will become Christians during this time, but many won't.

I agree with many posts on here. Faith is the deciding factor. However, not all of your prayers are answered the way you always want them to be answered. God can answer yes, no or not at all. It is those not at all answers that are hardest to deal with, but sometimes God wants to see how badly you want something. I know a wonderful lady who prayed for her husband for over 20 years, that he would stop his detrimental lifestyle and come back to church and become a Christian. She prayed for him everyday, and over 20 years later - her prayer was answered and he has been on fire for Jesus since that time - so her prayer was answered after she showed God how much she wanted it.

The toughest thing to remember is that God sees the past, present and future all at once. He therefore sees everything we are going through or will go through at once so He knows how everything will work out. I know for a fact that as I look back at my life (even before I became a Christian) that He was with me and was watching over me. Did I deserve it - NO, but He loved me so much and He knew one day I would accept His Son into my heart and knowing this He watched over me and took care of me.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son and whosoever shall believeth in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life!!!!
Aren't we all sons and daughters of God though? Doesn't the Bible teach us this? Jesus happened to be a sin free(as far as we know) son of god. He had the powers to heal(as far as we know), but so do all these money grubbing evangelists on TV (so they say).

This was just my opinion. I'm not dead set in my beliefs. Maybe they'll change as I get older, but I seriously doubt it. If god is influencing our lives, then free will means nothing.
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post #15 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-02-2004, 08:53 AM
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post #16 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-02-2004, 10:21 AM
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Aren't we all sons and daughters of God though? Doesn't the Bible teach us this? Jesus happened to be a sin free(as far as we know) son of god. He had the powers to heal(as far as we know), but so do all these money grubbing evangelists on TV (so they say).

This was just my opinion. I'm not dead set in my beliefs. Maybe they'll change as I get older, but I seriously doubt it. If god is influencing our lives, then free will means nothing.
I hope you don't think I was attacking you - as I sure didn't mean it that way, and if you took it that way - I'm sorry. I was just explaining my beliefs towards your post.

Yes, we are all sons and daughters of God and yes free will means everything. It is your choice to take the paths you take. If you choose to accept Jesus as the only perfect living Son of God and you ask Him to come into your heart and save you from your sins, then you will be saved. It is your choice to believe and accept. If you do not accept Jesus then you are against God. It is very simple. In fact, almost too simple, that is why some people have a problem with the whole salvation message. However, God is trying to influence you on this decision as this is the only way you can spend eternity with Him. That is why the Bible exists, preachers exist, and missionaries exist. The purpose is to spread the good news of Jesus Christ so that all may come to know Him and accept Him and therefore be saved.

As far as the televangelists that "claim" they can heal people - if they were real - wouldn't they be in Children's hospitals healing all the ill children and healing people of cancer and other diseases? That's where I'd be if I had that gift.
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post #17 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-02-2004, 10:32 AM Thread Starter
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I hope you don't think I was attacking you - as I sure didn't mean it that way, and if you took it that way - I'm sorry. I was just explaining my beliefs towards your post.

Yes, we are all sons and daughters of God and yes free will means everything. It is your choice to take the paths you take. If you choose to accept Jesus as the only perfect living Son of God and you ask Him to come into your heart and save you from your sins, then you will be saved. It is your choice to believe and accept. If you do not accept Jesus then you are against God. It is very simple. In fact, almost too simple, that is why some people have a problem with the whole salvation message. However, God is trying to influence you on this decision as this is the only way you can spend eternity with Him. That is why the Bible exists, preachers exist, and missionaries exist. The purpose is to spread the good news of Jesus Christ so that all may come to know Him and accept Him and therefore be saved.

As far as the televangelists that "claim" they can heal people - if they were real - wouldn't they be in Children's hospitals healing all the ill children and healing people of cancer and other diseases? That's where I'd be if I had that gift.
I've had near death threats on this site. Trust me, not at any point did I think you were attacking me.
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post #18 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-02-2004, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by JKDGabe
I don't believe Paul's thorn in the flesh was spiritual. He rejoiced in persecution.

2Co 12:7 Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me--to keep me from exalting myself!
2Co 12:8 Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.
2Co 12:9 And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
2Co 12:10 Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.

I don't see how that can be interpreted as anything other than a physical affliction. I don't remember the ch&v but Jesus healed a man who had a lifelong affliction but before He did His disciples asked, "Lord, who committed the sin, him or his parents?" He said "neither, it was so the power of God would be revealed through him". It was not the man's lack of faith that prevented him from being healed sooner and I'm pretty sure Paul had enough faith yet there is no record of him being healed. Physical problems can be good for us if we trust in God.
People say "God wants you to be healthy, wealthy and wise" but I say God wants us to grow in grace and mature spiritually and to that end we sometimes have problems. I agree with you when you say that the victory has already been won and we're here as training for the next life. Boot camp is not designed to be easy for the recruits.

I pm'd you btw.
I got your pm and I understand. No problems here.

We could debate this back and forth and bring scripture out to proove each others case and still get nowhere. Am I safe to say, I believe that it is Gods will to heal everytime all the time, and you believe that God only heals sometimes for certain reasons? Would you agree and say God is made perfect in love and we don't love perfectly?

If you had a son and he had some kind of terminally illness, you would probably say something to this effect,"I would give everything I had to save him." or "I would take his place if I could.". Most people would say something to that effect. Now how could we as humans that don't love perfectly, think that God who does love perfectly has the power to heal your son but he isn't going to use it? Do you think you could love your son more than God does?
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post #19 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-03-2004, 08:33 PM
 
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I believe that it is Gods will to heal everytime all the time, and you believe that God only heals sometimes
Yes, that's a succinct summary.

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Now how could we as humans that don't love perfectly, think that God who does love perfectly has the power to heal your son but he isn't going to use it? Do you think you could love your son more than God does?
Hmm, I'm not sure how I can say this any more clearly. This life is just boot camp, training for the next. If God was to spare us every trial how would we gain strength? Ultimately we will be healed and given new bodies. (I'm really looking forward to that!)

Quote:
We could debate this back and forth and bring scripture out to proove each others case and still get nowhere.
I hope you don't mean that. When scripture is clear, I believe it and try to abide by it. If you don't then I'll quit wasting my time here.

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Aren't we all sons and daughters of God though? Doesn't the Bible teach us this?
No. Those who are christians are adopted as sons and daughters. Again I say, chapter and verse please...
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post #20 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-04-2004, 01:40 AM
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I wasn't saying that we won't have problems (ie.trials). I am saying that God wants us to let him take care of it. God wants us to lift the burdens off our back and let him handle it. The main reason we have these trials is because we try to do things on our own and we screw up. I am not saying that Christians won't have problems ever again. I'm saying God is always there and willing to help bail you out of those problems. Now my question to you is, how would it strengthen us to not get help while suffering? How is that going to glorify God if God doesn't help us? No offence, but that just doesn't make since.


Don't get me wrong, I believe in scripture. I just don't like to get in debates because sometimes people get stuck in their original belief and there heart gets hardend to anything different if you try to prove them wrong or push your belief on them. But, here is some scripture. I'm holding you to your word. lol

Matt 7 "7": Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
"8": For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

Matt 10 "7": And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
"8": Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.


Matt 21 "19": And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
"20": And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
"21": Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
"22": And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.


John Ch 16 "23": ... Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.
"24": Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.


Luke Ch11 "9": And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
"10": For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
"11": If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?


Mark Ch 11 "23": For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
"24": Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
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post #21 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-04-2004, 02:36 AM
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Though, I know that God exists. When debating with people who don't believe in God, I have heard other Christians say this, as well as I have a time or two. I am sure you have probably said something along these lines as well. "If I am wrong and God doesn't exist, then it didn't hurt me any for believing. But, if the unbeliever is wrong, and there is a God, it will hurt them because they go to Hell."

My belief, some might call the "name it, claim it" belief, but if I am wrong, I lose out on nothing. But, if you are wrong you miss out on alot of Gods blessings. When you ask for something whether it be a healing, finances, or any other kind of help, your faith will be so weak that it probably won't come to pass, because you will be to busy hoping and wondering if it is Gods will to produce. I myself have seen multiple family members healed, I have recieved healing, major finacial break throughs, I would say most of my prayers get answered. The ones that don't get answered, I ask God to show me what hendered my prayer, and God reveals the answer to me. I never will accept that it is Gods fault that my prayers didn't get answered, because I know that God has already moved and answered them. I just did something wrong somewhere not to recieve it. I was ify on the "name it claim it" stuff to, but I recieve a revelation of Gods love and it changed my life. Yeah, alot of Christians believe God loves them, but they don't get the concept of how much God really loves them.
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post #22 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-04-2004, 05:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StangTamer
Though, I know that God exists. When debating with people who don't believe in God, I have heard other Christians say this, as well as I have a time or two. I am sure you have probably said something along these lines as well. "If I am wrong and God doesn't exist, then it didn't hurt me any for believing. But, if the unbeliever is wrong, and there is a God, it will hurt them because they go to Hell."

My belief, some might call the "name it, claim it" belief, but if I am wrong, I lose out on nothing. But, if you are wrong you miss out on alot of Gods blessings. When you ask for something whether it be a healing, finances, or any other kind of help, your faith will be so weak that it probably won't come to pass, because you will be to busy hoping and wondering if it is Gods will to produce. I myself have seen multiple family members healed, I have recieved healing, major finacial break throughs, I would say most of my prayers get answered. The ones that don't get answered, I ask God to show me what hendered my prayer, and God reveals the answer to me. I never will accept that it is Gods fault that my prayers didn't get answered, because I know that God has already moved and answered them. I just did something wrong somewhere not to recieve it. I was ify on the "name it claim it" stuff to, but I recieve a revelation of Gods love and it changed my life. Yeah, alot of Christians believe God loves them, but they don't get the concept of how much God really loves them.
Dude, thats good. I wish more people believed this way.

Disclaimer:
No other posters were flamed, ridiculed, persecuted, belittled, berated, judged or otherwise in the making of the above-posted reply. It is with respect all are asked to observe this and to provide the same courtesy bestowed upon those who have posted and those who will post. Yada, Yada, doublespeak and so forth!
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post #23 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-04-2004, 07:54 AM
 
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I wasn't saying that we won't have problems (ie.trials). I am saying that God wants us to let him take care of it.
Ahah! Now we're on the same page. I just don't think God is our servant who's bound to do something because we ask it. He does what's best for us and sometimes let's us get away with things we want even though we shouldn't. Excellent verses btw, but I'd just like to add one.

Jam 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

Based solely upon this verse (and that's usually dangerous, it's best to take everything into consideration) if you pray and don't get it it's because it ain't good for you! When you pray in accordance with God's will you will receive! It's just important to end your prayer with "Your will be done". Again, I think we're saying the same thing in a different way.

I pray for virtually everything. I end it with "Your will be done" as we are told to. My problem with the "name it and claim it" crowd is they tend to pray for every wish and when they don't get it it's not their sinful thought pattern it's an act of sin that needs to be dealt with... do you get what I'm saying? Calvinist's can be the same way - "it's predestined so I don't have to do anything". Not trying to paint with too broad a brush, just my observation.
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post #24 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-04-2004, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by JKDGabe
Ahah! Now we're on the same page. I just don't think God is our servant who's bound to do something because we ask it. He does what's best for us and sometimes let's us get away with things we want even though we shouldn't. Excellent verses btw, but I'd just like to add one.

Jam 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.

Based solely upon this verse (and that's usually dangerous, it's best to take everything into consideration) if you pray and don't get it it's because it ain't good for you! When you pray in accordance with God's will you will receive! It's just important to end your prayer with "Your will be done". Again, I think we're saying the same thing in a different way.

I pray for virtually everything. I end it with "Your will be done" as we are told to. My problem with the "name it and claim it" crowd is they tend to pray for every wish and when they don't get it it's not their sinful thought pattern it's an act of sin that needs to be dealt with... do you get what I'm saying? Calvinist's can be the same way - "it's predestined so I don't have to do anything". Not trying to paint with too broad a brush, just my observation.

Yeah, we seem to more on the same page now. Though I to wouldn't say God is our servant, but God has bound hisself by his own word, and his word say if we ask in his name and believe, we shall recieve. So, God has to answer your prayer or that would make him a liar. We all know God isn't a liar so you have to believe God has done his part and if our prayers don't get answer we missed it somewhere and it is our fault. Now obviously there has to be some wisdom used with this, you can't expect to recieve all of the money in the world, because you would be asking out of greed.lol The verse you posted, "Jam 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." is pretty much saying that. God is not going to give you something that is sin. But, I see nothing wrong with asking for a house, car, being debt free, wealthy, healing ect. You just need to ask for it with the right motivations and not lust, greed, ect. God wants us to be wealthy because the more money we have the more we can give to the church to help spread Gods word.


To answer this question. "My problem with the "name it and claim it" crowd is they tend to pray for every wish and when they don't get it it's not their sinful thought pattern it's an act of sin that needs to be dealt with... do you get what I'm saying?" I don't think that is correct either. Jesus cleaned our slate of sin, so we are now made rightious in Gods eyes(providing you are a born again believer). I'm not saying sin is ok by any means, but sin is not going to keep God from answering your prayers, unless you are praying for something sinful. Now if you are living in sin it can definately weaken your faith. I stopped trying to be good a long time ago, because I always failed when I tried to do it myself. One thing I have found is, the more I seek God the less I sin on accident(ie. without trying to be good). Many Christians also mix up faith with desire. Desire doesn't move God, Faith does.

There is alot to learn about faith. To many people give up to quick when they don't see something happen right away, because they don't understand how to believe. I think alot of people just don't understand how much God loves them. I they understood they would realize that God wants to be their crutch and God wants to bless them. All God asks of us is faith in him.
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post #25 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-06-2004, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by StangTamer
I wasn't saying that we won't have problems (ie.trials). I am saying that God wants us to let him take care of it. God wants us to lift the burdens off our back and let him handle it.
Well said. Here is scripture to back this up:

Matthew 11:28-30

"(28)Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden and I will give you rest. (29)Take My Yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. (30)For My Yoke is easy and My burden is light."
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post #26 of 26 (permalink) Old 12-08-2004, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StangTamer
Yeah, we seem to more on the same page now. Though I to wouldn't say God is our servant, but God has bound hisself by his own word, and his word say if we ask in his name and believe, we shall recieve. So, God has to answer your prayer or that would make him a liar. We all know God isn't a liar so you have to believe God has done his part and if our prayers don't get answer we missed it somewhere and it is our fault. Now obviously there has to be some wisdom used with this, you can't expect to recieve all of the money in the world, because you would be asking out of greed.lol The verse you posted, "Jam 4:3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." is pretty much saying that. God is not going to give you something that is sin. But, I see nothing wrong with asking for a house, car, being debt free, wealthy, healing ect. You just need to ask for it with the right motivations and not lust, greed, ect. God wants us to be wealthy because the more money we have the more we can give to the church to help spread Gods word.


To answer this question. "My problem with the "name it and claim it" crowd is they tend to pray for every wish and when they don't get it it's not their sinful thought pattern it's an act of sin that needs to be dealt with... do you get what I'm saying?" I don't think that is correct either. Jesus cleaned our slate of sin, so we are now made rightious in Gods eyes(providing you are a born again believer). I'm not saying sin is ok by any means, but sin is not going to keep God from answering your prayers, unless you are praying for something sinful. Now if you are living in sin it can definately weaken your faith. I stopped trying to be good a long time ago, because I always failed when I tried to do it myself. One thing I have found is, the more I seek God the less I sin on accident(ie. without trying to be good). Many Christians also mix up faith with desire. Desire doesn't move God, Faith does.

There is alot to learn about faith. To many people give up to quick when they don't see something happen right away, because they don't understand how to believe. I think alot of people just don't understand how much God loves them. I they understood they would realize that God wants to be their crutch and God wants to bless them. All God asks of us is faith in him.
I was hoping you two would get down to this. This final post is very accurate with what is being taught in the Bible. The next step is to understand that Just because God has not apparently answered a prayer does not necessarily mean that we have done something wrong (or not done something right). Sometimes the answer came in a way we did not recognize. Sometimes as was stated earlier in the post it was because we needed to exercise our faith or learn something first. We ARE going to go through trials just because we are followers of Christ. ("blessed are those who are persecuted for My name's sake...") We ARE going to go through trials to teach us things also. Jesus knew there was going to be a storm when he sent the disciples out across the lake before the storm and came walking upon the water to meet them.
I am writing this off the hip so if you need scripture to back any of this up, I will be glad to look it up for you.
Chris
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