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post #1 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-09-2004, 01:37 PM Thread Starter
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God's word is eternal and unchanging?

As you know, Dr. Laura Schlessinger is a US
radio personality who dispenses
advice to people who call in to her show.
Recently, she said that, as an
observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an
abomination according to
Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under
any circumstance. The
following is an open letter to Dr. Laura penned
by a US resident, which was
posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as
informative:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people
regarding God's Law. I have
learned a great deal from your show, and try to
share that knowledge with
as many people as I can. When someone tries to
defend the homosexual
lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them
that Leviticus 18:22 clearly
states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from
you, however, regarding some of the other
specific laws and how to follow
them:

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a
sacrifice, I know it creates a
pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The
problem is my neighbors. They
claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should
I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into
slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus
21:7. In this day and age, what do you think
would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a
woman while she is in her
period of menstrual uncleanliness -
Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I
tell? I have tried asking, but most women take
offense.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess
slaves, both male and
female, provided they are purchased from
neighboring nations. A friend of
mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but
not Canadians. Can you
clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on
the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2
clearly states he should be put to death. Am I
morally obligated to kill
him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though
eating shellfish is an
abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser
abomination than homosexuality. I
don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach
the altar of God if I have a
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear
reading glasses. Does my
vision have to be 20/20, or is there some
wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair
trimmed, including the hair
around their temples, even though this is
expressly forbidden by
Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the
skin of a dead pig makes me
unclean, but may I still play football if I
wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.
19:19 by planting two different
crops in the same field, as does his wife by
wearing garments made of two
different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester
blend). He also tends to curse
and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary
that we go to all the trouble
of getting the whole town together to stone
them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't
we just burn them to death at a private family
affair like we do with
people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.
20:14)

I know you have studied these things
extensively, so I am confident you
can help. Thank you again for reminding us that
God's word is eternal and
unchanging.

Your devoted fan,

Jim


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post #2 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 07:51 AM
 
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She-ra,

I am not quite sure what is so funny about the letter. It seemed antagonistic and ungodly, far from funny. It is quite obvious the writed has no understanding of the truth of God's word, which is eternal and unchanging. A culture change or a dispensation change, has nothing to do with God's word changing. This is a different age, the church age, and a different culture 3500 years later. Homosexuality is a sin and that has remained the same, consistently throughout the Word of God.

Romans 1:24-32 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

I would tell Jim to read the entire Word of God with an open mind and allow Christ to shed light on what he currently doesn't understand. Christ is real and He will speak to you...

Lee
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post #3 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 08:18 AM
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I dont know whats better, the letter, or the response to it! I guess god doesn't have a sense of humor after all. If so, then certainly quite a few people off this site were created in her image alright.
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post #4 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 08:43 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by four5.0snomore
It is quite obvious the writed has no understanding of the truth of God's word, which is eternal and unchanging. A culture change or a dispensation change, has nothing to do with God's word changing. This is a different age, the church age, and a different culture 3500 years later. Homosexuality is a sin and that has remained the same, consistently throughout the Word of God.
So, you are saying that because of this day and age we agree that making sacrifical offerings to God is wrong, and stoning people who work on the Sabbath is wrong among other things that in this present day we realize are not socially/legally/morally right, why is it that the abomination of homosexuality can't change? Do you not agree that a once practiced "word of God" that you shouldn't lay in the same bed as a menstrating "unclean" woman is no longer valid in today's society? If so, how can you say it's OK to not follow that "Word of God" but because I can, I think homosexuality is still wrong.....I don't see how you can excuse some "word of God" because of today's day and age yet not feel that others should get the same excuse.

I am not antagonistic and I am not ungodly....I merely posted an email I received that got me thinking and questioning....both things are OK to do and I'm sure God will be OK with me for doing so.

My point is, the "word of God" was written, what, 3500 years ago, who are we to say that some of these "words" no longer pertain to today's society....and who are we to decide to pick and choose which ones we want to pertain?

What up Talisman! I knew you would have my back!


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post #5 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 09:40 AM
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just a hint, but why do you think all your quotes above are out of the old testament?
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post #6 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by She-Ra
who are we to say that some of these "words" no longer pertain to today's society....and who are we to decide to pick and choose which ones we want to pertain?
Some of those words actually do not pertain to us today. After Jesus came the old Law past away because He became the embodiment and fulfillment of the Law. The Law was given to us to be a measuring device. It was to show us that no matter how hard we tried there was nothing that we could possible do to keep it. So when Jesus came He became the sacrifice to be offered for sin. So now instead of making animal sacrifices to atone sin we now rely on the sacrifice of Jesus for that atonement.

That being said, I am not sure how Orthodox Jews deal with the Law today.

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post #7 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 281R
just a hint, but why do you think all your quotes above are out of the old testament?
just a question, but isn't the passage(s) that condemn(s) homosexuality ALSO in the OT?


Jesus Himself was quite silent on the issue, don't you agree?
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post #8 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:00 PM
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So what happens if somebody comes forth and claims he is Jesus. How will we know if he is or not? Should I worship him and do what he says if he can walk on water and stuff? I am confused.
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post #9 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 46Tbird
just a question, but isn't the passage(s) that condemn(s) homosexuality ALSO in the OT?


Jesus Himself was quite silent on the issue, don't you agree?
Just because he was silent about smoking crack doesn't mean that he overlooks that sin. I say that as a joke obviously but only to make the point that just becasue Jesus did not speak directly to the issue does not mean he accepts it.

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post #10 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:04 PM
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That's kinda broad.
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post #11 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 46Tbird
just a question, but isn't the passage(s) that condemn(s) homosexuality ALSO in the OT?


Jesus Himself was quite silent on the issue, don't you agree?
Paul spoke on the issue as four5.0snomore has posted
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post #12 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:05 PM
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Originally Posted by can'tdrive55
So what happens if somebody comes forth and claims he is Jesus. How will we know if he is or not? Should I worship him and do what he says if he can walk on water and stuff? I am confused.
Don't be deceived by him.
I figure you are saying that to be a smart guy but in fact that will happen one day. A person will come one day claiming to be God and he will do miraculous things to fool the masses.

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post #13 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:06 PM
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That's kinda broad.
What?

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post #14 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh
Don't be deceived be him.
I figure you are saying that to be a smart guy but in fact that will happen one day. A person will come one day claiming to be God and he will do miraculous things to fool the masses.
So, was the first Jesus fooling the masses?-serious question-
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post #15 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:09 PM
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What?
I mean, if the issue was not directly addressed, how are we suppossed to know it is a sin?
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post #16 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:10 PM
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So, was the first Jesus fooling the masses?-serious question-
Depends on who you ask I suppose. I take it as fact that no he did not fool the masses.

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post #17 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:11 PM
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good answer
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post #18 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by can'tdrive55
I mean, if the issue was not directly addressed, how are we suppossed to know it is a sin?

Its more convienent for people to scream about how something is an atrocity if they can put the bible behind them in their personal belief.
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post #19 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:17 PM
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Its more convienent for people to scream about how something is an atrocity if they can put the bible behind them in their personal belief.
Isn't that the truth. Back to my original question, if a man claiming to be the new Jesus comes forth and he is convincing, would we not get into heaven for worshipping him if he turned out to be a nut?
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post #20 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:20 PM
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BTW, Jesus may not have spoken directly to the issue of homosexuality but like I said before you are not really going out on a limb to suggest that he abhored it. Here is what the Apostle Paul had to say about it.
Quote:
Rom 1:26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.
Rom 1:27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.
Rom 1:28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done.

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post #21 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:22 PM
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just becasue Jesus did not speak directly to the issue does not mean he accepts it.
A God that knows no beginning and no end should be able to speak of anything directly, right?

Crack abuse - although used jokingly - was not a concern 2000+ yrs ago, but there are many passages that mention how the Lord wants us to remain sober and alert in the NT (Thessalonians 5:6 is a good example), which crack cocaine will obviously impair.

However, Jesus himself conspicuously never speaks directly of homosexuality as a sin. It was rampant before, during, and -obviously- after his time, so it would be something that he would know about. Jews knew very well that the act of homosexuality was condemned by God. Yet He never condemns it Himself. I find that interesting.

If you've read my posts here before, you understand that I don't support gay marriage, etc. But I have to wonder just what Jesus thinks of gays.
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post #22 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:22 PM
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Isn't that the truth. Back to my original question, if a man claiming to be the new Jesus comes forth and he is convincing, would we not get into heaven for worshipping him if he turned out to be a nut?
I suppose you could be sincere in following any ideoligy you like, but IMO if you are not following Jesus all you will be sincere about is being wrong. And being sincerley wrong doesn't gain you access to God.

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post #23 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:25 PM
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A God that knows no beginning and no end should be able to speak of anything directly, right?

Crack abuse - although used jokingly - was not a concern 2000+ yrs ago, but there are many passages that mention how the Lord wants us to remain sober and alert in the NT (Thessalonians 5:6 is a good example), which crack cocaine will obviously impair.

However, Jesus himself conspicuously never speaks directly of homosexuality as a sin. It was rampant before, during, and -obviously- after his time, so it would be something that he would know about. Jews knew very well that the act of homosexuality was condemned by God. Yet He never condemns it Himself. I find that interesting.

If you've read my posts here before, you understand that I don't support gay marriage, etc. But I have to wonder just what Jesus thinks of gays.
I talked to Jesus the other day and he told me that he hates gays. Ofcourse, the Jesus I talked to was driving a lowrider and lived in Garland.
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post #24 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by 46Tbird
A God that knows no beginning and no end should be able to speak of anything directly, right?

Crack abuse - although used jokingly - was not a concern 2000+ yrs ago, but there are many passages that mention how the Lord wants us to remain sober and alert in the NT (Thessalonians 5:6 is a good example), which crack cocaine will obviously impair.

However, Jesus himself conspicuously never speaks directly of homosexuality as a sin. It was rampant before, during, and -obviously- after his time, so it would be something that he would know about. Jews knew very well that the act of homosexuality was condemned by God. Yet He never condemns it Himself. I find that interesting.

If you've read my posts here before, you understand that I don't support gay marriage, etc. But I have to wonder just what Jesus thinks of gays.
Fair enough there was not crack then. But as you indicate all the bases are covered by Paul saying be sober. I think the key is in the first line of your post, "A God that knows no beginning and no end.." Jesus and God are one. Therefore it was Jesus that also wrote the Law, in which was written don't be a homosexual.

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post #25 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:32 PM
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You would think it would be a comandment "thou shall not puff peter"-I am not a writer, but I am sure it would be something along those lines.
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post #26 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:35 PM
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I am not a writer...
Good thing too.

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post #27 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:36 PM
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Jesus and God are one. Therefore it was Jesus that also wrote the Law, in which was written don't be a homosexual.
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Some of those words actually do not pertain to us today. After Jesus came the old Law past away because He became the embodiment and fulfillment of the Law.
I feel like these two statements contradict each other.
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post #28 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:36 PM
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You dont like my commandment?
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post #29 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 12:38 PM
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I feel like these two statements contradict each other.
I am guessing that is because you are under the impression that Jesus came into existance at the point of His physical birth. That is not the case. He, like His Father, is eternal.

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post #30 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 01:11 PM
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No, that doesn't confuse me at all.

What confuses me is that the Lord wrote the Law, which is eternal and unchanging. I get that.

Then "..after Jesus came the old Law past away because He became the embodiment and fulfillment of the Law"

That is what confuses me.

The Law (IMO) did not pass away, we are just selectively picking passages to enforce. How can you say homosexuality is a sin on one hand, and say it's okay to work on the Sabbath when the eternal and unchanging word of God tells us they are both sins?

If you agree that working on Sunday is a sin (I'm sure you've done it before, I know I have) then I'm sure that you will say that Jesus died for our sins and you will be forgiven. I agree. Why isn't homosexuality the same thing? Why should gays be ostracized when you yourself are a Sunday-workin hypocrite?









sorry, I get a lil carried away sometimes
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post #31 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 01:22 PM
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No, that doesn't confuse me at all.

What confuses me is that the Lord wrote the Law, which is eternal and unchanging. I get that.

Then "..after Jesus came the old Law past away because He became the embodiment and fulfillment of the Law"

That is what confuses me.

The Law (IMO) did not pass away, we are just selectively picking passages to enforce. How can you say homosexuality is a sin on one hand, and say it's okay to work on the Sabbath when the eternal and unchanging word of God tells us they are both sins?

If you agree that working on Sunday is a sin (I'm sure you've done it before, I know I have) then I'm sure that you will say that Jesus died for our sins and you will be forgiven. I agree. Why isn't homosexuality the same thing? Why should gays be ostracized when you yourself are a Sunday-workin hypocrite?









sorry, I get a lil carried away sometimes
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[9] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.
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post #32 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 01:30 PM
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27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
Which means that.. homosexuality is tolerable as long as it is performed by a Christian?
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post #33 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 01:45 PM
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Which means that.. homosexuality is tolerable as long as it is performed by a Christian?
not tolerable, but forgiveable
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post #34 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 01:58 PM
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Which means that.. homosexuality is tolerable as long as it is performed by a Christian?
Homosexuality is a sin just like any other sin. (although it, along with heterosexual sexual immorality is unique to other sin. 1 Corinthians 6:18-20) It is also forgivable like any other sin. If a Homosexual becomes a Christian and repents, they will be forgiven. But to repent is to turn away from your sinful ways and do them no more. You cannot live a lifestyle of sin and stay in Gods favor. Just as a person in the mafia or a gang could not become a Christian and still live their sinful lifestyle of committing crime, so a homosexual cannot become a Christian and continue to engage in a sinful lifestyle. When you become a Christian, you have to make the effort to change and or abstain from the sins in your life. And your desire to live in righteousness should come from your new love of Christ and want to follow his teachings.
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post #35 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 01:59 PM Thread Starter
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No, that doesn't confuse me at all.

What confuses me is that the Lord wrote the Law, which is eternal and unchanging. I get that.

Then "..after Jesus came the old Law past away because He became the embodiment and fulfillment of the Law"

That is what confuses me.

The Law (IMO) did not pass away, we are just selectively picking passages to enforce. How can you say homosexuality is a sin on one hand, and say it's okay to work on the Sabbath when the eternal and unchanging word of God tells us they are both sins?

If you agree that working on Sunday is a sin (I'm sure you've done it before, I know I have) then I'm sure that you will say that Jesus died for our sins and you will be forgiven. I agree. Why isn't homosexuality the same thing? Why should gays be ostracized when you yourself are a Sunday-workin hypocrite?
I agree Danny. It seems to me that people use what verses of the bible they want to make the point they want, without taking into consideration that a lot of the bible is outdated for todays society....who are we to pick and choose which verses are/are not relavant.


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post #36 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by breadfan35
If a Homosexual becomes a Christian and repents, they will be forgiven. But to repent is to turn away from your sinful ways and do them no more. You cannot live a lifestyle of sin and stay in Gods favor.
As a weak human, I admit I am unable to live a sin-free existence. This means that I am out of God's favor? How about you? How about Josh and 281R? You fellas out of God's favor as well?
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post #37 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 02:48 PM Thread Starter
Philippians 4:13
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 46Tbird
As a weak human, I admit I am unable to live a sin-free existence. This means that I am out of God's favor? How about you? How about Josh and 281R? You fellas out of God's favor as well?
I'm out of God's favor cause I used the Lord's name in vein.....shit I've done worse too (at least I thought so) but that must be the biggie since it's a commandment!
Here's another question.....are breaking commandments worse then breaking the laws of our country (in God's eyes)? I mean can I defraud the IRS and be seen higher in God's eyes than if I were to dishonor my mother and father?

Also, how many of you guys have had anal sex? Isn't sodomy a sin as well?


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post #38 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 03:15 PM
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Should we assume that you've taken part in sodomy?




/cringes at the answer
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post #39 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 03:29 PM Thread Starter
Philippians 4:13
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 46Tbird
Should we assume that you've taken part in sodomy?




/cringes at the answer
LOL...Nope sorry Danny, that I have no interest in....I thought I would post the question since most guys on this site have a "In da poopa" fetish.

Have you? Given or received?


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post #40 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 03:31 PM
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Given. lmfao














Sorry God.
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post #41 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 03:35 PM Thread Starter
Philippians 4:13
 
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Originally Posted by 46Tbird
Given. lmfao
Sorry God.
^^^Not in God's favor


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post #42 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 04:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by can'tdrive55
So what happens if somebody comes forth and claims he is Jesus. How will we know if he is or not? Should I worship him and do what he says if he can walk on water and stuff? I am confused.
If it is the "real" Jesus, you will not be in your body anymore.
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post #43 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 05:14 PM
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What is sinful in the Old Testament is still sinful in the New Testament. Jesus brought the gift of Love to the Earth. To keep others accountable for their sins and help them. Homosexuality is a sin, we should not accept it but we need to help them out and in turn others will help us with the sin we struggle with.

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post #44 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by She-Ra
I agree Danny. It seems to me that people use what verses of the bible they want to make the point they want, without taking into consideration that a lot of the bible is outdated for todays society....who are we to pick and choose which verses are/are not relavant.
People using only what that agree with in the bible to try and bend others to their will? Surely THAT has never happened before.


YoBro told me Danny is a catcher!
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post #45 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-10-2004, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 46Tbird
As a weak human, I admit I am unable to live a sin-free existence. This means that I am out of God's favor? How about you? How about Josh and 281R? You fellas out of God's favor as well?

Let me clarify. Everyone is a sinner. We will all fall short of the glory of God. That was the whole purpose for Jesus to die. However, there is a difference between choosing to turn from sin and occasionally falling short and sinning again and continuing to live in a sinful lifestyle. For instance:

Lets say there is gay person that has a gay lover. Lets say that one day this gay persons finally decides to follow Christ. Now that person has to make the effort to change their life and end the gay relationship. You cannot say you are a Bible believing Christian and continue in a gay relationship when the Bible condemns Homosexuality.

Now, does God hate Homosexuals? Not at all! Infact they (and all sinners who don't know God) are sought more vigorously by God.

Luke 15:4-7 "Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. The he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.' I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent."
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post #46 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-11-2004, 12:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by She-Ra
I agree Danny. It seems to me that people use what verses of the bible they want to make the point they want, without taking into consideration that a lot of the bible is outdated for todays society....who are we to pick and choose which verses are/are not relavant.

The Bible is not outdated, if it were, there would not be so many people that adhere, learn, prosper, and take comfort from it. And I agree that you should not pick and choose your verses, so let me try to explain for you guys:

The old Testament deals with the time of the Old Covenant. The New Testament deals with the New Covenant. What is the difference between the two? Well the Old Covenant was the Law given to Moses for the Jews to follow to keep them out of sin. But they had to make sacrifices to atone for their sins when they broke the Law. Now God said through the prophet Jeremiah that He was going to make a New Covenant:

Jeremiah 31:31-34

" The time is coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the Lord. "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, form the least of them to the greatest," declares the Lord. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."


Jesus' coming was the start of the New Covenant. His Death payed for all of Mans sin for all time. A final, once and for all sacrifice. Thus fulfilling what God predicted through he prophets and beginning the New Covenant and the age of Grace. Now as you can see in the Jeremiah passage, the law is still valid and eternal. But it is now written on peoples minds and hearts. But with Jesus there was an eternal and final atonement for our sins. Therefore, for the follower of Christ, there is no punishment (death) for their sin because God " remembered their sins no more". The wages of sin is death, but a person in Christ has no sin, it has been forgiven, thus eliminating death. And Grace is given to all to come to Christ of their own free will and receive the free gift of salvation that he offers. When one follows Christ, they choose to follow and obey the guidelines of the Bible. Not so much because they " have to", but because they now want to. If they are sincere about their faith, read the Bible, and Pray, the Holy Spirit will lead their heart to desire to do good and to follow Gods word, and to be Fruitful. If they are fake, or stay with following their own sinful ways, they aren't really sincere and haven't really put Christ as their Lord and the Holy Spirit will not lead them. That does not mean when a person decides to become a Christian they must change everything right at once! God knows your heart and knows when you are making the effort to change. And he will give you help if you are willing to accept it by following His Word. And God knows that we cannot be perfect. That is the reason Jesus was sent. He was perfect and His sacrifice is what paid the cost of our sins.
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post #47 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-11-2004, 03:54 PM
 
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law unchanging?

The way I understand it, Jesus said he is not here to change the law but to complete it. Many people feel that if the New Testament doesn't specifically address a subject (such as homosexuality) that it is O.K.. I don't know where the old law stops and new law starts but the Old Testament does have some relativity to today.
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post #48 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-12-2004, 01:33 PM
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I thought this verse from then NT also shows how the old covenant is in contrast with the new.
2 Corinthians Chapter 3
13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[1] the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
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post #49 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-17-2004, 01:35 PM
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This thread is great.

Let's agree with this part, this part, that part and this part. The rest of it we don't agree with so that must be the parts that Jesus has relieved us of.

Give me a break.
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post #50 of 79 (permalink) Old 08-17-2004, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AL P
This thread is great.

Let's agree with this part, this part, that part and this part. The rest of it we don't agree with so that must be the parts that Jesus has relieved us of.

Give me a break.
Ah yes, the beauty of religion. Pick and choose, throw the rest away.
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