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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-23-2004, 02:30 AM Thread Starter
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I am alittle confused

I was reading the bible the other day and I forgot to write down what I was reading dang it..but anyway I have a question about what happens when we die.....now from what I have researched ..I have come to two conclusions

A. We die and go to either heaven or hell

B. We die and we go to a sort of inbetween stage of death...waiting to be judge when the second coming of jesus is apoun us...

Reason I ask this cause of the rapture talk and someone said somthing that trigged my thoughts on this.."It is only the time that He returns to snatch away those believers that have died and the believers still alive on earth" Breadfan35 said...

any thoughts on this would be helpfull thanks : )

To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad.
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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-23-2004, 03:49 AM
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John 3 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man, (Jesus Christ), who is in heaven.

Two things here...

1. Jesus spoke these words. He states that no one has gone to heaven (I think He'd know before us).

2. This was recorded by John years after the death and resurrection of Jesus, so it still affirmed that only Jesus was/is the only person to do so.

As far as people like Elijah and Enoch, I can't answer that.
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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-23-2004, 05:06 AM Thread Starter
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awsome thanks for the answer..

To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad.
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-23-2004, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DFWminis
awsome thanks for the answer..
I believe that verse speaks of the physical body not the soul. Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with him in paradise that very day. The Bible also says, that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So I do believe that when a Christian dies they, their soul, immediately goes to heaven. When the rapture happens the dead bodies of Christians will rise first to meet their souls, and then those which remain will meet Christ in the air. That is what I think is going on.

Another thing to consider is the transfiguration of Christ when Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus.

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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-23-2004, 10:54 AM
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When the rapture happens the dead bodies of Christians will rise first to meet their souls, and then those which remain will meet Christ in the air.
WHy would we have need for a physical body in a spiritual realm?
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-23-2004, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shrp88lx's
WHy would we have need for a physical body in a spiritual realm?
The thousand year kingdom will be on earth, not in a spirit realm.
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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-23-2004, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by breadfan35
The thousand year kingdom will be on earth, not in a spirit realm.
I dont believe the kindom will be aliteral kingdom on earth.
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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-23-2004, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by shrp88lx's
WHy would we have need for a physical body in a spiritual realm?
Heaven is a physical place where there are physical and spiritual beings.

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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-23-2004, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by shrp88lx's
I dont believe the kindom will be aliteral kingdom on earth.
Doesn't the Bible teach that we will reign with Christ during His second coming? I certainly believe it does.

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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-23-2004, 06:23 PM
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Doesn't the Bible teach that we will reign with Christ during His second coming? I certainly believe it does.

First off why would Christ need to rule here on earth? Hes been ascended to his Heavenly kingdom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by josh
Heaven is a physical place where there are physical and spiritual beings
Umm please tell me where you get there are physical things in Heaven?

1 Cor. 15:50-54
I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-23-2004, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by shrp88lx's
First off why would Christ need to rule here on earth? Hes been ascended to his Heavenly kingdom.
The earth was made for God and His people. Do you think that He just made all this so that the Devil would have a place to live? There will be a 1000 year reign and the Eternity, right here on good 'ol planet Earth.

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Last edited by MoonDog; 07-23-2004 at 09:13 PM.
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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-23-2004, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shrp88lx's
Umm please tell me where you get there are physical things in Heaven?

1 Cor. 15:50-54
I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable,and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
There it is right in front of you and you did not even see it, in red. What do you think it is talking about there? It is talking about the new physical bodies that we shall have.

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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-23-2004, 08:40 PM
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Rev. 21:10-27

Quote:
Originally Posted by St. John
10 So he took me in spirit* to a great, high mountain, and he showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God. 11 It was filled with the glory of God and sparkled like a precious gem, crystal clear like jasper. 12 Its walls were broad and high, with twelve gates guarded by twelve angels. And the names of the twelve tribes of Israel were written on the gates. 13 There were three gates on each side-east, north, south, and west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundation stones, and on them were written the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
15 The angel who talked to me held in his hand a gold measuring stick to measure the city, its gates, and its wall. 16 When he measured it, he found it was a square, as wide as it was long. In fact, it was in the form of a cube, for its length and width and height were each 1,400 miles.* 17 Then he measured the walls and found them to be 216 feet thick* (the angel used a standard human measure).
18 The wall was made of jasper, and the city was pure gold, as clear as glass. 19 The wall of the city was built on foundation stones inlaid with twelve gems: the first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald, 20 the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst.
21 The twelve gates were made of pearls-each gate from a single pearl! And the main street was pure gold, as clear as glass.
22 No temple could be seen in the city, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 And the city has no need of sun or moon, for the glory of God illuminates the city, and the Lamb is its light. 24 The nations of the earth will walk in its light, and the rulers of the world will come and bring their glory to it. 25 Its gates never close at the end of day because there is no night. 26 And all the nations will bring their glory and honor into the city. 27 Nothing evil will be allowed to enter-no one who practices shameful idolatry and dishonesty-but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life.
Certainly sounds like the New Jerusalem is a physical place descending from a physical Heaven.

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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-23-2004, 09:27 PM
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There it is right in front of you and you did not even see it, in red. What do you think it is talking about there? It is talking about the new physical bodies that we shall have.
No physical things perish.
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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-23-2004, 09:28 PM
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Certainly sounds like the New Jerusalem is a physical place descending from a physical Heaven.
The problem I see here is you are taking figurative things and making them literal.
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post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-23-2004, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MoonDog
The earth was made for God and His people. Do you think that He just made all this so that the Devil would have a place to live? There will be a 1000 year reign and the Eternity, right here on good 'ol planet Earth.
Figurative speech again. Clearly it says the earth will be done away with. The devil will not be living here he and his angels will be cast into the lake of fire at the judgement.
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post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-23-2004, 09:38 PM
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The earth was made for God and His people. Do you think that He just made all this so that the Devil would have a place to live? There will be a 1000 year reign and the Eternity, right here on good 'ol planet Earth.
Jesus Kingdom is clearly a spiritual kingdom. Even to pilate he said if my kingdom were of this world my armies would fight.

Matt.10:7 The Jews were waiting for the Messiah to usher in his kingdom. They hoped for a political and military kingdom that would free them from Roman rule and bring back the days of glory under David and Solomon. But Jesus was talking about a spiritual kingdom. The gospel today is that the kingdom is still near. Jesus, the Messiah, has already begun his kingdom on earth in the hearts of his followers.
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post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-23-2004, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by shrp88lx's
The problem I see here is you are taking figurative things and making them literal.
Explain to me why you think it is figurative?
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post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-23-2004, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by shrp88lx's
Figurative speech again. Clearly it says the earth will be done away with. The devil will not be living here he and his angels will be cast into the lake of fire at the judgement.

I take it you don't believe in the thousand year reign?
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post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-24-2004, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by shrp88lx's
The problem I see here is you are taking figurative things and making them literal.
Thats right, I believe in a literal bible. I take it from the way you are talking that everything it up for interpretation.

You are correct with what Jesus said to Pilate. Right now His Kingdom is spiritual but when He returns it will be made physical.

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post #21 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-24-2004, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by MoonDog
Thats right, I believe in a literal bible. I take it from the way you are talking that everything it up for interpretation.

You are correct with what Jesus said to Pilate. Right now His Kingdom is spiritual but when He returns it will be made physical.
I do not believe that is what Jesus was saying at all. So basically you guys are basing the relative nature of Heaven on the word "of"? Be careful not to read too much into the scripture because this text does nothing to indicate whether Heaven is physical or spiritual. It just says that His kingdom is not of this world. His Kingdom can be in the world but still not be of it.
I think Jesus was saying that if my Kingdom were established on earth now and my servants could see me for who I really am, they would surely come fight for me.
So who are the servants? Angels, spirits? That is what your interpretation assumes. No they can't be angels; because the Heavenly host was surely able to deliver Him if God were to allow it. So He must have been talking about His disciples and followers here on earth.

Consider this also. We know from scripture that Jesus humbled himself from His heavenly state to become like us. What was His state previous to this? It must have been an existance much greater than we presently experience. We live in a four demensional plane. There is no telling how many Heaven has. Science has discovered the possibility of up to 10 dimensions. Heaven might possibly exsist in all ten. So certainly Heaven would have height, length and breadth. Those three dimensions are represenative of physicality.

Jesus is physical. He ascended into Heaven, did He then turn into a spiritual being? I don't think so. He sits even now at the right hand of the Father.

Just a tangent; I also personally believe that Jesus has been in His physical form for all of eternity. I gather this from John 1.

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post #22 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-24-2004, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by MoonDog
Thats right, I believe in a literal bible. I take it from the way you are talking that everything it up for interpretation.

The Bible is to betaken literally Like Moondog said. True, the Bible does use representational, or symbolic speech., but in every case where it does the symbols stand for a literal place or thing. For instance, any time a fig tree is mentioned in the Bible, it is always symbolic of Israel. And the Beast in Revelation is symbolic of the antichrist. And the dragon or serpent is symbolic of Satan. But in every case I just mentioned, the things which the symbols represent are literal things.

A general rule of thumb is to take the Bible's words completely literal unless context proves symbolism. But even then the symbol will stand for a literal thing or place.
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post #23 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-24-2004, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh
I believe that verse speaks of the physical body not the soul. Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with him in paradise that very day. The Bible also says, that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. So I do believe that when a Christian dies they, their soul, immediately goes to heaven. When the rapture happens the dead bodies of Christians will rise first to meet their souls, and then those which remain will meet Christ in the air. That is what I think is going on.

Another thing to consider is the transfiguration of Christ when Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus.


YOU NEED TO REMEMBER WHAT THE APOSTLE PAUL SAID, "TO LIVE IS CHRIST , AND TO DIE IS GAIN." MEANING WHEN YOU DIE YOU WILL BE WITH CHRIST, WHICH IS IN HEAVEN SITTING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, MAKING INTERCESSION FOR ALL OF US.
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post #24 of 24 (permalink) Old 07-25-2004, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 87stang
YOU NEED TO REMEMBER WHAT THE APOSTLE PAUL SAID, "TO LIVE IS CHRIST , AND TO DIE IS GAIN." MEANING WHEN YOU DIE YOU WILL BE WITH CHRIST, WHICH IS IN HEAVEN SITTING ON THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, MAKING INTERCESSION FOR ALL OF US.
I remember. Are you affirming my statement?

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