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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-10-2004, 01:52 AM Thread Starter
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here is a thinker

ok do we have a destiny or a unknown path??

To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad.
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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-10-2004, 01:59 AM
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we are predestined for graetness and through free will we must either choose the path toward greatness or could it be SATAN.

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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-11-2004, 02:28 AM Thread Starter
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is our life already planned out for us though?? I mean if god knows everything then really our life is already set in stone..so really it does not matter what I do cause ...someone already knows what I am going to do ...so really I am destine to do whatever is that I do

To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad.
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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-11-2004, 02:45 AM
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The Lord gave us the gift of choice so we my make our own decisions, good or bad. If not, wouldn't you think He would have made us all love Him? I totally believe we create our own paths because when we chose to accept Him, it is from our hearts, not a pre-destined occurance.
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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-11-2004, 05:44 AM Thread Starter
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yes god gives us choices...but he already knows what you are going to choose how and why...so really your fate is already choosen...from the second your born..your life is going to be lived one way only...you have already choosen your path...and god knows that path

To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad.
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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-11-2004, 05:51 AM
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But you have to look at it like this; God already knows, but does not interfere with your choices. The decisions are still yours to make. One good thing to look at is that He already knows what you're decisions are forever and He still loves you. How bad can that be?
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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-11-2004, 10:28 AM Thread Starter
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so then really ...everything does not happen for a reason .....but does god not guide you in these matters?? also what is the point of praying for help on somthing that has been already been set in to motion and can not be changed cause god already knows the outcome

To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad.
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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-11-2004, 01:29 PM
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This question will never go answered. It has been in dispute since the beginning of time.

Rather, it is 100% opinion, and generally based upon religion.

If God knew the future, and let us make decisions (in which he does not interfere) then why do we pray? When praying itself would have God intervene/interfer in our decisions. Our decision in essence would already be predetermined, and we would not really have free will, just a mere perception that we do.

However if we were to say that God does help to guide us in the path which he deems is best....then you would have to say that our future is not predetermined, and possibly that we do not have, nor want, free will ultimately. In this theory though, it limits God's power, and that is not typical Judaeo Christian belief.

The question to ask is "Do we really have free will"?
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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-13-2004, 03:41 AM Thread Starter
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o man good call.......How do you figure we do not have free will....We have free will to a certain extent...of course we have guidlines and what not...we choose to give up some free will to do gods work

To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad.
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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-13-2004, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DFWminis
o man good call.......How do you figure we do not have free will....We have free will to a certain extent...of course we have guidlines and what not...we choose to give up some free will to do gods work
We have free will, He just already knows the choices. That doesn't affect a thing in our choice making.
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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-13-2004, 03:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DFWminis
o man good call.......How do you figure we do not have free will....We have free will to a certain extent...of course we have guidlines and what not...we choose to give up some free will to do gods work
"we choose to give up free will"............if you choose, then that is free will. If by what you are saying you have to give up free will to do God's work, then you are saying you have no free will, or you give up your freedom to do God's work, and by that you are saying you are not free.

You cannot have both. You either have it or you don't.
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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-13-2004, 03:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
We have free will, He just already knows the choices. That doesn't affect a thing in our choice making.

Alright....you say we have free will. What do you mean by that? Do you mean we have the power to choose our destiny? Even though it is already predetermined.

Meaning, no matter what choice we make is merely an illusion. Due to the fact that our fate is already laid out. If you were to say that our fate is not laid out (predetermined), then you would be saying that God does not know the future. Simply put, no matter what I choose, God knows whether or not I am going to heaven or hell.
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-13-2004, 04:11 AM
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Originally Posted by z0sense
Meaning, no matter what choice we make is merely an illusion. Due to the fact that our fate is already laid out. If you were to say that our fate is not laid out (predetermined), then you would be saying that God does not know the future. Simply put, no matter what I choose, God knows whether or not I am going to heaven or hell.
I know it's a hard concept to grasp, but yes. We do have free will or choices have yet to be made, but He already knows, yet does not interfere. Fate and destiny have to do with ending up somewhere no matter what you do, not a choice.
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-13-2004, 04:24 AM
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It is not the concept I am trying to grasp. This is what I study.

The point I am trying to make is the fact there is no answer. You cannot speak for the masses. You can only interpret it the only way you know how. Which is unfortunate because you cannot see it the way others do.

I am more of a relativist. I see it relative to the person I am talking to. I am only offering things for you to consider, rather then trying to sway you one way or the other.

For you to say it is a certain way is relative to your religion. Not that of others.

Why are we able to make choices? What difference does it make? If ou fate has nothing to do with choices, then what are we trying to accomplish with them? The end result is the same either way. I do feel that destiny is a product of our choices. However you do not. Does that make either of us wrong? I however can substantiate my claims without the use of religion or be biased to any one belief. Can you? Would you have any facts to support your claim, other then what a biased book would say, and the way you interpret that?

Second, if we have free will, how would you explain evil? Would you say the product of evil is a choice that we make? For instance, a death in the family, a hurricane that takes out entire cities, a misscarriage, etc. How would you explain things that we have no control over. Would you say evil is a product of man, or of God? If God causes bad/evil things to happen is that a choice we make?
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-13-2004, 05:27 AM
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Proverbs 16:9, A man's mind plans his ways, but the Lord directs his steps.This entire book is about the choices we make or free will we have to seek God's ways or be on. God brings things to pass for HIS purpose, it becomes less and less about me.
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post #16 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-13-2004, 06:53 AM
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In your mind, do we or do we not have free will. Free will and fate can not coexist.
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post #17 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-13-2004, 02:52 PM
 
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Wrong

Ok yes we all do have free will and yes prayer does change thing because even though God has a plan for our lives we can purposely or inadvertently change that plan. For instance when moses went up to the mount to talk with God and get the Ten commandments everything was peach, but when they came down and the children of Israel had made unto themselves a golden calf and were worshipping it God was, well in lamens terms very pissed and was going to kill them. God told Moses to get out of the way and Moses pleaded or "prayed" to God not to kill them and to have mercy and God changed his mind. So there you have it...Yes we have free will although God has a path or plan for us and yes prayer does work as evident in this story. If yall really wanna break out the big guns we can talk more.....and I am willing to show chapter and verse for every word that I have to say.
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post #18 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-13-2004, 10:21 PM
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I do not believe that we have free will ultimately.

Yes we can make choices, there isn't a choice for everything that would have a direct impact on our lives. As explained in the example above, if God wanted to he could have "smitten" them all. They would have had no choice in any of it.

Also, as mentioned earlier, in order to justify your point. Using the Bible as a reference makes for a weak discussion. Reason being that not everyone believes in it, or can grasp the concept of such stories. Not to mention the fact that everyone interprets it, and relates to it, differently.

It is much more strong to invest some other form of proof that is on equal ground, and harder to argue with.

If I were to say....."I don't believe in that book.....", The only logical response would be, "then that is what you believe (opinion)". Which brings me back to the point that this is indisputable. It relates to each individuals belief, or interpretation of events (and normally religion).

That is what makes the question for thinkers. We could sit here and "help" each other, or think more critically on the subject. However, in the end, there is no right answer. People spent "lifetimes" asking the same thing. Those people also came to similar conclusions, or died more confused then they started.
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post #19 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-13-2004, 10:25 PM
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For the record, for you to say something is wrong is really unappreciated. I do not mock your beliefs, etc.

Let me fill you in on a couple of things. In order to have a decent discussion/argument....it would seem imperative that we all remain rational. Try not to get emotional if someone test your beliefs or theories. Just try and use empathy, and see it from their point of view.

I was reared in the church, and I am familiar with the bible's teachings. I am also familiar with many other religions, and can look at it from their points of view as well. Ultimately (if what you believe is true) then we are all "free" to believe what we want, and it would be relative to what we want.

For you to say I am wrong is a contradiction to the point you are trying to make.

Last edited by z0sense; 07-13-2004 at 10:30 PM.
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post #20 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-14-2004, 12:25 AM
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Chaos....the world is in constant motion, and I don't think anyone has a predetermined fate. In predetermined, do you mean someone(god) has a virtual movie of your life, and every move? Don't confused predetermined, with the mear fact that SOMETHING IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

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post #21 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-14-2004, 01:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z0sense
For the record, for you to say something is wrong is really unappreciated. I do not mock your beliefs, etc.

Let me fill you in on a couple of things. In order to have a decent discussion/argument....it would seem imperative that we all remain rational. Try not to get emotional if someone test your beliefs or theories. Just try and use empathy, and see it from their point of view.

I was reared in the church, and I am familiar with the bible's teachings. I am also familiar with many other religions, and can look at it from their points of view as well. Ultimately (if what you believe is true) then we are all "free" to believe what we want, and it would be relative to what we want.

For you to say I am wrong is a contradiction to the point you are trying to make.

I've never said you're wrong, but stating what I believe and what you believe being two different things, aren't we saying "you're wrong" to each other? Have I knocked your beliefs? I re-read the thread and couldn't find anything demeaning or offensive. I thought we were comparing ideas and beliefs, but I guess I hurt your feelings. That's not what this forum is for. So for that, I am sorry. I was really getting into your posts because I do find it interesting as to what others believe. Having different opinions is, after all, free will
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post #22 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-14-2004, 01:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Denny
I've never said you're wrong, but stating what I believe and what you believe being two different things, aren't we saying "you're wrong" to each other? Have I knocked your beliefs? I re-read the thread and couldn't find anything demeaning or offensive. I thought we were comparing ideas and beliefs, but I guess I hurt your feelings. That's not what this forum is for. So for that, I am sorry. I was really getting into your posts because I do find it interesting as to what others believe. Having different opinions is, after all, free will
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post #23 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-14-2004, 01:49 AM
 
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i believe that we have free will, but that since Gods is all knowing He knows the decisions we make before we make them. he know all the sins we are ever going to commit and all the people that will go to heaven and to hell. the choice is ours. the problem is that we are trying to look at this on out level. in a sense we are trying to put God at our level in order to answer the questions. we can have a complete free will and yet God still know all the decisions we are going to make. does the fact of God already knowing what we are going to do take away from our free will? no, it once again shows how powerful, all knowing and great God is.we think that because God already knows what we are going to do that we have lost our free will (that only really got us into trouble in the first place) and somehow this whole thing was a joke and we get confused and scared. i think it just edifys(sp?) God. that is just my opinion on it.
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post #24 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-14-2004, 02:00 AM
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I am a strong proponent of the belief of free will. I feel that the reason that God knows the future is that time is not a relative factor for Him as it is to us. This is why so many of us struggle with many things such as prayer and understanding of the word. Hence the fact that prayers are answered in Gods time. I choose not to look at God as a puppeteer, but a loving father that gives us many opportunities to have a fruitful and fullfilling life. It is all about the choices we make for ourselves. I definitly see both sides of this discussion has having very compelling arguments for each person's opinion, but tend to lean more to Denny's approach.

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post #25 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-14-2004, 02:56 AM Thread Starter
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Told yall this was a thinker : D...I love to read different views and thoughts on things like this..I am not looking for a answer..that is the fun part ..asking questions that not a single soul on this earth can answer but have so many different views..good stuff...

To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad.
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post #26 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-14-2004, 05:48 AM
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Here's what I find interesting about this post and most all of the post here.
That our lives are so full of evidence of God's power, caring and guidance and all anyone wants to do is give opinions and beleif's. I'm really not interested in opinions as much as experience. The old saying the proof is in the pudding.
I'm as guilty as anyone, because I forget my life is meant to be an example of God's grace. By talking about the struggles and victorys, honestly is what brings me humilty. The "I'm right you're wrong stuff" is fun and interesting but what about living proof out of our existance here, if free will or fate applys. Example, what do you do for a living?, where do you live? marryed or single? drive a car or truck? WHY?
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post #27 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-14-2004, 08:39 AM
 
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we all have the ability to write our own destiny, whether we believe in a devine being or not
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post #28 of 29 (permalink) Old 07-15-2004, 02:43 AM Thread Starter
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I am going to pencil in then I win the lotto and erase having to work

To me, clowns aren't funny. In fact, they're kind of scary. I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad.
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post #29 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-11-2004, 10:41 PM
 
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I didnt realize you guys were soo deep.

Right on.
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