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post #1 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-11-2004, 10:56 AM Thread Starter
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A Question..

My co-workers and I have initiated a SOD (sermon of the day) discourse every morning. Here is today's sermon:
Quote:
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if any one hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.(Revelation 3:20)
One of the comments I received from a coworker is as follows:
Quote:
My understanding is that this verse also contains a personal message to all who claim to believe. Just because we say we "believe in Him" (that He does exist and is God) does not necessarily mean we "believe" (in the sense of trust and faith in His Word). Remember the demons also "believe in Him". Jesus is standing at each one of our door's and is knocking, awaiting us to invite Him in and share our lives with Him not just in Heaven but right here, right now.
Do you think my coworker has the right take on this passage?

Thanks
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post #2 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-11-2004, 11:26 AM
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Yes, I believe that your co-worker is on the money.

James 2:1919 "You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. "


Many people believe in Jesus just like the Demons do. Many people believe but do not let Jesus be their Lord and Saviour; Just like the demons do. It takes more than a belief that God/Jesus are real. It takes obedience and faith.

IE: "I believe in God and Jesus but, I don't believe in the Bible."

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post #3 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-11-2004, 11:41 AM Thread Starter
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Yep, I was afraid of that.

Does that mean that we should all be Catholics? Just askin..
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post #4 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-11-2004, 12:15 PM
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Exactly, many know who He is and know that He is standing outside but these same people are afraid to open the door and let Him in and have a personal one on one relationship with Him. There will be many who know Him but He will tell, "Depart from Me, I never knew you."
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Originally posted by 46Tbird
Yep, I was afraid of that.

Does that mean that we should all be Catholics? Just askin..
What does being Catholic have to do with it?

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post #5 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-11-2004, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird


Does that mean that we should all be Catholics? Just askin..
????

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post #6 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-11-2004, 01:48 PM
 
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Re: A Question..

Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
One of the comments I received from a coworker is as follows:
Do you think my coworker has the right take on this passage?
The message in Revelation 3 to the church at Laodecia is just that, it is a message to the church. I do believe that it applies to the church today, but that is a whole seperate study. It is of course a "nice" way to show Christ's willingness to save the lost, but this is a message for the church, not speaking of salvation directly. Jesus is on the outside looking in of the average church in America today, and most churches don't want Him in the door! As JC (monsoonx) said the Christian life is salvation then service. We don't want that service, surrender, sacrifice part in America today. We don't want anything to do with suffering. It has become a business, a commercialized gospel, a peace and prosperity and bless me message. America's churches, leaders and members, need to repent and return to our FIRST love (Rev. 2). Thats my 2 cents...
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post #7 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-11-2004, 02:35 PM
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Re: Re: A Question..

Quote:
Originally posted by four5.0snomore
It has become a business, a commercialized gospel, a peace and prosperity and bless me message.

That is SOOOOO TRUE!

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post #8 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-11-2004, 05:26 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Matthew 16

15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Peter built the Catholic Church, the church that God himself started and claimed will exist forever.
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post #9 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-12-2004, 07:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
Peter built the Catholic Church, the church that God himself started and claimed will exist forever.
LOL Jesus built the Church on Peters' statement. LOL

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post #10 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-12-2004, 08:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
Peter built the Catholic Church, the church that God himself started and claimed will exist forever.
Peter did not build the Catholic Church, the Romans did. And Paul had a larger effect on the world outside Jerusalem then Peter did.

What Jesus is saying here is that upon this rock (the revelation that Peter had about who Jesus was) He would build his church. The Catholics like to believe that the rock that Jesus is refering to is Peter since his name means rock. But in reality Jesus used two different words 1) Petros = Peter (means piece of rock) 2) petra = rock (means mass of rock)
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post #11 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-12-2004, 08:58 AM Thread Starter
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LOL, you guys sound like a bunch of haters.

There it is in black and white, and yet you don't believe the church started by Simon Peter is the one that Christ wanted to have created? Simon Peter was the first Pope (Catholic - Roman Catholic - same thing; I mean the church with the Pope), and Christ spoke directly to him. Popes have what is called "papal infallicy" which means that the things they do are done because God tells them to do so and therefore cannot be wrong.

Sounds pretty impressive to me! And wouldn't it mean that you were turning you back on modern-day messages from God if you weren't Catholic?

I've had a couple of discussions with a devout Roman Catholic here at work and he's got an interesting take on the whole thing.

Just looking for your commentary.
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post #12 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-12-2004, 09:01 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
LOL, you guys sound like a bunch of haters.

Popes have what is called "papal infallicy" which means that the things they do are done because God tells them to do so and therefore cannot be wrong.
Danny,

How did popes get that deal? I want in on that...it is quite silly if you think about it!

Lee
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post #13 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-12-2004, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
LOL, you guys sound like a bunch of haters.

There it is in black and white, and yet you don't believe the church started by Simon Peter is the one that Christ wanted to have created? Simon Peter was the first Pope (Catholic - Roman Catholic - same thing; I mean the church with the Pope), and Christ spoke directly to him. Popes have what is called "papal infallicy" which means that the things they do are done because God tells them to do so and therefore cannot be wrong.

Sounds pretty impressive to me! And wouldn't it mean that you were turning you back on modern-day messages from God if you weren't Catholic?

I've had a couple of discussions with a devout Roman Catholic here at work and he's got an interesting take on the whole thing.

Just looking for your commentary.
The Catholics also pray to Mary and every other saint under the sun but that isn't anywhere in the bible. It specifically states that there is only one mediator between God and man, Jesus. So just because the Pope says something does not mean it came from God. If it contradicts the bible then it is nothing more than a false teaching.

I dont hate anyone that is Catholic, my wife grew up Catholic, I just have problems with the Catholic Church and how they have twisted things throughout the centries.
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post #14 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-12-2004, 10:17 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
The Catholics also pray to Mary and every other saint under the sun but that isn't anywhere in the bible. It specifically states that there is only one mediator between God and man, Jesus. So just because the Pope says something does not mean it came from God. If it contradicts the bible then it is nothing more than a false teaching.

I dont hate anyone that is Catholic, my wife grew up Catholic, I just have problems with the Catholic Church and how they have twisted things throughout the centries.
And that is just the beginning...

1. praying to dead men and women
2. baptism of babies
3. salvation by works, not grace
4. Men being able to forgive sins
5. purgatory
6. repetitive praying
7. ultra traditional, quite commercialized
8. live life how you want to as long as you come to confession

Lee
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post #15 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-12-2004, 12:08 PM Thread Starter
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So you're saying the church that Simon Peter started, the one that God Himself said would not "be overcome by the gates of Hades", is not sending the true message of God to man?

Please comment.
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post #16 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-12-2004, 12:52 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
So you're saying the church that Simon Peter started, the one that God Himself said would not "be overcome by the gates of Hades", is not sending the true message of God to man?

Please comment.
Peter did not start the Catholic church. The church, the true church, the body of Christ, the bride of Christ will prevail.
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post #17 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-12-2004, 01:04 PM
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I'll have to agree that the Catholic Church is off it's rocker on a bunch of issues. I'm finding things wrong with every denomination that I look into. That is why I'm comfortable with a self-study and will be open to suggestions from people of different denominations, but I will not commit to just one. Each relationship with GOD should be customized to what we're comfortable with. Don't get me wrong, I didn't say convenient, but comfortable. GOD gave us the power to make our own decisions and that is what I'll do to best please Him.

My belief is that you believe that Jesus is your one and only Savior and that He died for the forgiveness of your sins. You gotta be thankful to Him for that, BE TRUELY SORRY FOR THE SINS YOU HAVE COMMITED, ask for forgiveness, and the gift of eternal life is yours without question.

Take it for what it's worth. I have a good piece of mind knowing that I am going to Heaven.
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post #18 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-12-2004, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denny

Take it for what it's worth. I have a good piece of mind knowing that I am going to Heaven.
That's somewhat true. As long as your "freedom in decision-making" is quite in order with what God says. Don't stop studying, you'll learn more.

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post #19 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-12-2004, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by four5.0snomore
And that is just the beginning...

1. praying to dead men and women
2. baptism of babies
3. salvation by works, not grace
4. Men being able to forgive sins
5. purgatory
6. repetitive praying
7. ultra traditional, quite commercialized
8. live life how you want to as long as you come to confession

Lee
Sure, I could have kept going, like the Pope being the ultimate authority here on earth.
Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
Please comment.
Danny, we are telling you that Peter did not start the Catholic Church. I asked my wife this question, who has gone though all the "rituals", "traditions", "sacraments", and whatever else they call them and she herself has even said that the Catholic church was actually started by the Romans when they made Christianity their official religion.

I and JC both said that the "rock" that Jesus is refering to is the revelation that Peter had concerning Him being the Christ. Peter is the little rock, Christ is the Big Rock. Peter in a sense was a chip off the ol' block.

So I guess the answer to your question is, yes, the Catholic Church is not sending the true message of God to man.
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post #20 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-12-2004, 04:40 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by four5.0snomore
Peter did not start the Catholic church. The church, the true church, the body of Christ, the bride of Christ will prevail.
You and Moon Dog are making an interpretation of Christ's message, when in actuality He is clearly stating His desire for Simon Peter to commission a church for Him.

Why are you doing that?
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post #21 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-12-2004, 04:54 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
Danny, we are telling you that Peter did not start the Catholic Church.
Why are you saying that?

Christ asked Simon Peter to commission a church for Him. Peter worked with the other apostles to create this church.

Peter was the leader of the apostles, and became the first Bishop of Rome within this church. The Pope continues to have that title to this day. Bishop of Rome (old name) = Pope (new name).

Therefore, Peter did exactly as he was commissioned by Christ to do - start a church. That church was named "Catholic" (greek term loosely meaning "universal") and continues to exist today.

Literally, the Catholic church was started when Christ told Peter to start a church that "the gates of Hades will not overcome".

Please explain why you believe differently.
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post #22 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-12-2004, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
You and Moon Dog are making an interpretation of Christ's message, when in actuality He is clearly stating His desire for Simon Peter to commission a church for Him.

Why are you doing that?
It is you and the Catholics that are making the interpretation.

It states:
Mat 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My assembly, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against her.

It does not say:
Mat 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this Peter I will build My assembly, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against her.

The "rock" that is spoken of is the statement that Peter made stating that Jesus was the Christ.

If Jesus is speaking to Peter then grammatically it would be improper to say "and on this Peter", He would have said "and upon you, Peter".

Where did you get that Peter was a Bishop to Rome? A Catholic website? He was never a bishop.
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post #23 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-13-2004, 07:47 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
Why are you saying that?

Christ asked Simon Peter to commission a church for Him. Peter worked with the other apostles to create this church.

Peter was the leader of the apostles, and became the first Bishop of Rome within this church. The Pope continues to have that title to this day. Bishop of Rome (old name) = Pope (new name).

Therefore, Peter did exactly as he was commissioned by Christ to do - start a church. That church was named "Catholic" (greek term loosely meaning "universal") and continues to exist today.

Literally, the Catholic church was started when Christ told Peter to start a church that "the gates of Hades will not overcome".

Please explain why you believe differently.
Danny,

You are obviously confused as to what a church is in the first place. Catholicism is not a church, it is a religion. The church is the body of Christ, not a building or set of ordinances.

Lee
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post #24 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-13-2004, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by four5.0snomore
Danny,

You are obviously confused as to what a church is in the first place. Catholicism is not a church, it is a religion. The church is the body of Christ, not a building or set of ordinances.

Lee
Very true.

Danny if you really want to get technical. One can say that the "Church of God" is the true church. No less than 8 times in the NT does it mention the church being called "Church of God". And apparently it started in Corinth.
Quote:
1Co 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth...
2Co 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth...
So what is it, Catholic or Church of God?
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post #25 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-13-2004, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
It is you and the Catholics that are making the interpretation.

It states:
Mat 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My assembly, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against her.

It does not say:
Mat 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this Peter I will build My assembly, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against her.

The "rock" that is spoken of is the statement that Peter made stating that Jesus was the Christ.

If Jesus is speaking to Peter then grammatically it would be improper to say "and on this Peter", He would have said "and upon you, Peter".

Where did you get that Peter was a Bishop to Rome? A Catholic website? He was never a bishop.
It also does not say:
Mat 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter and I want you to build me a church. LOL

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post #26 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-14-2004, 07:38 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by Monsoon X
It also does not say:
Mat 16:18 And I also say to you that you are Peter and I want you to build me a church. LOL
LOL
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post #27 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-17-2004, 05:48 PM Thread Starter
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What do you nay-sayers think about this? Bunk?
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post #28 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-18-2004, 06:04 AM
 
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It is no good for sure.

The Living Bible
Matt 16:18 You are Peter, a stone; and upon this rock I will build my church; and all the powers of hell shall not prevail against it.


1. You cannot take 1 scripture a form any doctrine or foundation, especially one of this size and nature.

2. the "this very" definition I could not find in any of my Greek NT tools

3. even the greek word oikodomeo translated "I will build" carries the conotation of edification or emboldening.

4. Don't forget the idea is to follow Christ, it is not about any man...Paul says, "Follow me as I follow Christ!"

5. James was a "pastor" before Peter was a pastor...

6. It looks like to Catholic Matt. 16:18 would be a lie, as the gates of hell have infiltrated and won many victories against "their" religion.

7. where did they get their crazy doctrines from about Mary, repetitive praying, man being able to forgive sins, purgatory, etc...not from Peter!

Lee
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post #29 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-18-2004, 03:00 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by four5.0snomore
1. You cannot take 1 scripture a form any doctrine or foundation, especially one of this size and nature.
Why? I see John 3:16 paraded around all the time.
Quote:
2. the "this very" definition I could not find in any of my Greek NT tools
It shows you where that reference comes from.
Quote:
3. even the greek word oikodomeo translated "I will build" carries the conotation of edification or emboldening.
But it says "I will build".. right?
Quote:
4. Don't forget the idea is to follow Christ, it is not about any man...Paul says, "Follow me as I follow Christ!"
No qualms here - but if you believe as Catholics do - that the Catholic church speaks on behalf of Christ himself - then, neither do they.
Quote:
5. James was a "pastor" before Peter was a pastor...
Okay.. but what does that have to do with Simon Peter being the first Bishop of Rome?
Quote:
6. It looks like to Catholic Matt. 16:18 would be a lie, as the gates of hell have infiltrated and won many victories against "their" religion.
Interesting take on that. Since the church is run by men, and all churches are (agree?), and since all men sin, then does that mean that your church has been infiltrated and defeated by the gates of Hades?
Quote:
7. where did they get their crazy doctrines from about Mary, repetitive praying, man being able to forgive sins, purgatory, etc...not from Peter!
Who says crazy? You?

Those traditions were in place and practiced by EVERY Christian up through the 1400s. EVERY Christian believed that the Church (before being called Catholic) spoke to mortal men on behalf of Christ, since his physical presence was no longer on the earth. So.. for 1400 years.. there was acceptance of papal infallability and all those other "looney" ideas. At what point did man decide it was okay to divorce and remarry? The Catholic church has been pretty staunch about the meaning of "till death do us part" for 2000 years.. and many other "looney" ideas like that.

Hey, at least they're consistent.

I'm not on either side of this fence, I'm just trying to grasp other Christians' hatred for Catholicism.
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post #30 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-18-2004, 03:25 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by four5.0snomore
Danny,

You are obviously confused as to what a church is in the first place. Catholicism is not a church, it is a religion. The church is the body of Christ, not a building or set of ordinances.

Lee
Danny,

Again, your idea of what the church is, doesn't line up with the what the church really is.

BTW - I have ZERO hatred for the religion, and feel sorry for any Catholics that are being lead astray. My desire is to reach out to them any way I can.

Lee
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post #31 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-18-2004, 03:33 PM
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1. Nowhere in the bible does it say we are to pray to Mary, or any other "saint". We are to pray to God through Jesus.

2. Nowhere in the bible does it say that good works will get you in good standing with God and get you into heaven. It is by grace not works that we are saved.

3. Nowhere in the bible does it say that any man, including a Pope, can forgive your sins. It is only by the blood of Jesus that we are saved and our sins forgiven.

4. Nowhere in the bible does it show where babies are to be baptized, especially by the sprinkling of water. All baptisms were adults by immersion.

The Catholic church has had the habit of adding their own doctrine, biblical books, and religious traditions and idols in order to suit their own needs and desires.

Man has always said that it was ok to divorce and remarry. The church has always been against it. But God told Moses to allow the people to divorce because of their hardened hearts.

A church building is indeed run by man and sepseptible to corruption. But the true church of God, the body of Christ, the Bride of Christ, has never been infiltrated nor defeated by the gates of Hell and never will be. The Church is not a building with four walls but all Christians around the world as a whole.

John 3:16 is mentioned so often because is sums up the whole bible in one single verse. The bible speaks about God love for us and what we must to to gain salvation.

Last edited by MoonDog; 05-18-2004 at 06:02 PM.
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post #32 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-18-2004, 05:15 PM Thread Starter
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Maybe you're all missing the point of what it means to be Catholic..??

Because what it means to be Catholic is to believe that Christ continues to communicate with us to this very day, and that all church doctrines have come down by the direction of God Himself. The traditions, the praying, the rituals - all deemed by God to be what humans should do to praise Him.

In other words, THE BIBLE ISN'T ENOUGH. As modern problems surface, Catholic leaders (inspired by God!) determine how God himself wants them to be dealt with.

So I'm kinda wondering why you believe the authors of the Bible were more "inspired by God" than leaders within the Catholic church. You're right, I am only assuming this, going by your answers up to this point..
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post #33 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-18-2004, 06:06 PM
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For over a span of 2000 year the bible never once contradicted itself. Nor did it ever change a doctrinal teaching. But the Catholics come along and all of a sudden things aren't good enough and God has given them fresh revelation.

Sounds very similar to the Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, Branch Davidians....
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post #34 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-18-2004, 06:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
Maybe you're all missing the point of what it means to be Catholic..??

Because what it means to be Catholic is to believe that Christ continues to communicate with us to this very day, and that all church doctrines have come down by the direction of God Himself. The traditions, the praying, the rituals - all deemed by God to be what humans should do to praise Him.

In other words, THE BIBLE ISN'T ENOUGH. As modern problems surface, Catholic leaders (inspired by God!) determine how God himself wants them to be dealt with.

So I'm kinda wondering why you believe the authors of the Bible were more "inspired by God" than leaders within the Catholic church. You're right, I am only assuming this, going by your answers up to this point..
The Bible is all we need. These other various teachings from the Catholic Church are not from God. These leaders that follow these doctrines (mentioned previously) are not hearing from God either. Christ communicates to the true church today, and that is not Catholicism.
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post #35 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 03:57 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by four5.0snomore
The Bible is all we need. These other various teachings from the Catholic Church are not from God. These leaders that follow these doctrines (mentioned previously) are not hearing from God either. Christ communicates to the true church today, and that is not Catholicism.
Proof..?
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post #36 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 04:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
Proof..?
The Bible...?
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post #37 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 04:35 PM Thread Starter
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The Bible is proof that no one except the authors of the Bible can be inspired by God?
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post #38 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
The Bible is proof that no one except the authors of the Bible can be inspired by God?
Anyone can be inspired by God as long as what they claim they are being told does not contradict what the bible already says. If the bible says that the only way to heaven is through Jesus then someone can not come along and say that God told them that you can also be saved by believing in Pastor Billy Joe Bob. Likewise, if the bible says that we are saved by grace then the Pope cannot come out and say we can be saved by works.

Last edited by MoonDog; 05-19-2004 at 04:58 PM.
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post #39 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 05:57 PM Thread Starter
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The Catholic church does not say either of those things.

They say you repent your sins through Confession, not that "believing in Pastor Billy Joe Bob" will save you.

The Pope has never said you could be saved by works, only that God shines favorably on those who perform good works for their fellow man in His name. Does your church not teach the same thing?

You're right Randy, you can't contradict what the Bible tells you to do. And Catholicism doesn't say to "... nevermind this part of the Bible - you'll be saved anyway" quite the same way that Protestant / Orthodox denominations seem to. Like divorce for example.

Just an observation..
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post #40 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-19-2004, 06:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
The Catholic church does not say either of those things.

They say you repent your sins through Confession, not that "believing in Pastor Billy Joe Bob" will save you.

The Pope has never said you could be saved by works, only that God shines favorably on those who perform good works for their fellow man in His name. Does your church not teach the same thing?

You're right Randy, you can't contradict what the Bible tells you to do. And Catholicism doesn't say to "... nevermind this part of the Bible - you'll be saved anyway" quite the same way that Protestant / Orthodox denominations seem to. Like divorce for example.

Just an observation..
Ok, does or does not the Catholic church teach and encourage a person can pray to Mary and or any other "saint"?
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post #41 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 10:14 AM Thread Starter
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I see where you're going. Catholics don't worship their saints, they pray to God that they can be as enlightened as they were.

They believe that their saints were inspired by God in EXACTLY the same fashion that the authors of the Bible were. So they hold those people in very high regard... EXACTLY they way you do with the authors of the Bible.
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post #42 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 10:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
I see where you're going. Catholics don't worship their saints, they pray to God that they can be as enlightened as they were.

They believe that their saints were inspired by God in EXACTLY the same fashion that the authors of the Bible were. So they hold those people in very high regard... EXACTLY they way you do with the authors of the Bible.
Danny - will you answer his question?

They pray to Mary and other saints, which the Bible describes as idolatry (10 commandments).

They pray repetitively (i.e. hundreds of times) 2 prayers, which is taught against by Jesus himself.

They teach purgatory which is not a biblical concept.

They baptize babies, which is dangerous, wrong, and not found in the Bible.

Catholics believe if there is unconfessed sin in your life, you will not make it to heaven but rather hang out in purgatory for a bit until someone prays you in.

Tackle these few subjects if you will Danny...

Lee
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post #43 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-20-2004, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by 46Tbird
I see where you're going. Catholics don't worship their saints, they pray to God that they can be as enlightened as they were.

They believe that their saints were inspired by God in EXACTLY the same fashion that the authors of the Bible were. So they hold those people in very high regard... EXACTLY they way you do with the authors of the Bible.
IMO they do worship the saints. They definitely pray to Mary and many other saints. This is the same as idolitry. We are to worship and/or pray to no man or woman, but to God only.

I beleive many people throughout history have been inspired by God, there have been many great leaders of the early church. Minucius Felix, Justin Martyr, Clement, Polycarp, Hermas, I can go on and on. But I do not worship nor do I pray to them. And I certainly do not hold their writings in the same regard that I hold the bible.

This is just part of the Litany (repetitive recital) of the Blessed Virgin Mary. Who are they praying to? Its not God.

Quote:
Holy Mary, pray for us.
Holy Mother of God, pray for us.
Holy Virgin of virgins, pray for us.
Mother of Christ, pray for us.
Mother of divine grace, pray for us.
Mother most pure, pray for us.
Mother most chaste, pray for us.
Mother inviolate, pray for us.
Mother undefiled, pray for us.
Mother most amiable, pray for us.
Mother most admirable, pray for us.
Mother of good counsel, pray for us.
Mother of our Creator, pray for us.
Mother of our Savior, pray for us.
It appears to me that they are praying to Mary for her to intercede on their behalf. As stated before there is only one person who can intercede or mediate for us, Jesus Christ. (1 Tim 2:5)

Last edited by MoonDog; 05-20-2004 at 04:06 PM.
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post #44 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2004, 11:23 AM
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This is a very interesting thread as i am Catholic. In all my years I was neve taught to pray repetitive. I will get back to ya'll on praying to Mary. I have a website that talks about this, that is not a catholic site. I will post when i get home

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post #45 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2004, 12:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by pohlmeyr
This is a very interesting thread as i am Catholic. In all my years I was neve taught to pray repetitive. I will get back to ya'll on praying to Mary. I have a website that talks about this, that is not a catholic site. I will post when i get home

-keith
My wife was Catholic as well until she learned better. Much of my information comes from her. She went through all the sacraments, confirmation, went to a Catholic HS and was taught by nuns. I tend to think she knows what she is talking about on the subject. Now does what I have stated hold true to every Catholic Diocese, maybe not, but I am pretty sure it is true for most.

The rosary is a religious exercise where a defined number of prayers are recited and a string of beads is used to keep count.

http://www.tomsdomain.com/rosary/

This is a repetitive prayer and falls on deaf ears.
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post #46 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2004, 01:08 PM
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http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/faq-cc.html#q14

here is the website i was talking about. I prayed the rosary as a child but i guess i never thought that it was repetitve. I guess it is.

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post #47 of 48 (permalink) Old 05-31-2004, 07:32 PM
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There is alot that I disagree with on that website. Definitely pro-catholic and anti-protestant.

1)Since Mary is the mother of Christ, she is also the mother of all us believers.

2)There is a section entitled: Unity (for Catholics)

3)Catholics do feel that Mary is entitled to a great measure of exaltation

4)When Catholics pray to Mary and the other saints in Heaven they are not bypassing Christ, whom they acknowledge as the sole Mediator between God and man. They are going to Christ through Mary and the other saints.

5)God in the Person of Jesus Christ authorized the priests of His Church to hear confessions and empowered them to forgive sins in His Name.

6)The first word in Protestant is "protest." And this protest from the beginning was aimed at Church authority.

7)The Blessed Eucharist, is the actual Flesh and Blood of Jesus Christ

8)In the most important and obvious sense there is certainly sex in Heaven simply because there are human beings in Heaven

I could just keep going and going but there is so much to read I just dont have the time. Now dont get me wrong Keith, I have nothing against Catholics in general, like I said, I married one, I just have problems with some of the teachings of the Catholic Church.

Randy
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post #48 of 48 (permalink) Old 06-01-2004, 08:10 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
My wife was Catholic as well until she learned better.
lol
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