Did Jesus really exist? - DFWstangs Forums
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #1 of 43 (permalink) Old 03-29-2004, 10:13 PM Thread Starter
Hero in a half shell
 
Fobra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Richmond Tx
Posts: 2,584
Did Jesus really exist?

I dont know if this has been brought up, but it has been brought up several times in my Anthropology class by my professor. If I remember correctly, his argument was since supposidly the Romans crusified him according to the Bible, there is no actual Roman documentation of their being a Jesus Christ being crusified. So how do we know Jesus existed if Roman history does not mention him?

Fobra is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 43 (permalink) Old 03-30-2004, 01:12 AM
TWIN SPINNER
 
Josh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: At Work
Posts: 3,208
Absolutely

Did Ghengis Khan exist? How do we know? Documentation.

There are a couple of old documents written by a Roman historian named Flavius Josephus. He was not a Christian and was only concerened with recording the history of Israel. Both of these speak of Jesus. Not sure of both do but one most definately speaks of Jesus' murder.

Here you go.
Quote:
Originally posted by Flavius Josephus
" About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared. " - Jewish Antiquities, 18.3.3 §63
Here is a quote by the Roman historian Tacitus. Here he speaks about Nero blaming the Christians for a fire that had destroyed Rome in 64A.D.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tacitus
Nero fastened the guilt . . . on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of . . . Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome...
From the Bablonian Talmud:

Quote:
Originally posted in the Talmud

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."
To discuss his diety, sanity or motive is one thing but it is an absolute rediculous notion to suggest that he did not exist. This one man has changed the history of the world. So much so that we number the days by him.

My car is for sale!
EBay Link
Josh is offline  
post #3 of 43 (permalink) Old 03-30-2004, 01:33 AM
Banned
 
poopnut2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Fence
Posts: 20,196
I believe Jesus existed. The story of Jesus is just TOO specific to be made up. The differences in the old testament to the new are mainly that the new testament is much more detailed. The old testament is too much of, this guy lived this long, had this many children, and died.
poopnut2 is offline  
 
post #4 of 43 (permalink) Old 03-30-2004, 07:25 AM
98 SVT Cobra
 
MoonDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Central IL
Posts: 5,109
Re: Did Jesus really exist?

Quote:
Originally posted by x_redhotcobra_x
I dont know if this has been brought up, but it has been brought up several times in my Anthropology class by my professor. If I remember correctly, his argument was since supposidly the Romans crusified him according to the Bible, there is no actual Roman documentation of their being a Jesus Christ being crusified. So how do we know Jesus existed if Roman history does not mention him?
Jesus is the most documented person in history, but since your professor claims the Romans dont mention Him ever being crucified there is cause for concern regarding His existance?
Quote:
Romans adopted crucifixion from Carthage and used it for rebels, slaves and especially despised enemies or criminals. They used it during Spartacus rebellion, during the Roman Civil War and the destruction of Jerusalem. Crucifixion was considered a dishonourable way to die.

The prisoner usually had to carry the horizontal beam to the place of execution, not necessarily the whole cross. If the crucifixion happened in an established place of execution, the vertical beam was probably permanently embedded in the ground.

The Romans often broke the prisoner's legs to hasten death. Burial afterwards was not usually permitted. In some cases, the nails were gathered afterwards and used as healing amulets.

The Roman Empire abolished crucifixion when Christianity became the state religion. Some medieval Muslim rulers used it sporadically.
So, (as Josh points out) Josephus and Tacitus mention that Jesus was killed during the reign of Pontius Pilatus. Crucifixion was very common in the Roman Empire at the time of Jesus. Does it have to be spelled out exactly?
MoonDog is offline  
post #5 of 43 (permalink) Old 03-30-2004, 08:03 AM Thread Starter
Hero in a half shell
 
Fobra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Richmond Tx
Posts: 2,584
thanks for the replies, i'll try to use some of these if this topic gets brought up again in my class. also, my prof is a buddhist because he says there is no god involved in it, it is only a philosophy.

Fobra is offline  
post #6 of 43 (permalink) Old 03-30-2004, 08:21 AM
98 SVT Cobra
 
MoonDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Central IL
Posts: 5,109
Quote:
Originally posted by x_redhotcobra_x
thanks for the replies, i'll try to use some of these if this topic gets brought up again in my class. also, my prof is a buddhist because he says there is no god involved in it, it is only a philosophy.
Supposedly, three months after the Buddha's death, many of his disciples met and agreed on what Buddha had actually said. The Buddhist scriptures were passed on by word of mouth, and finally written down in Sri Lanka by the fourth council in 10 BC, about 500 years after Buddha's death.

And Christians are made fun of for believing scripture that was written no more than 50 years after the cricifixion.
MoonDog is offline  
post #7 of 43 (permalink) Old 03-30-2004, 10:32 AM
Banned
 
poopnut2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: On the Fence
Posts: 20,196
Quote:
Originally posted by x_redhotcobra_x
thanks for the replies, i'll try to use some of these if this topic gets brought up again in my class. also, my prof is a buddhist because he says there is no god involved in it, it is only a philosophy.
I don't see how people can think there is no god. I mean, we had to come from somewhere. We came from single celled organisms? Where did they come from.

Only problem is the question of "where did god come from?"
poopnut2 is offline  
post #8 of 43 (permalink) Old 03-30-2004, 02:28 PM Thread Starter
Hero in a half shell
 
Fobra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Richmond Tx
Posts: 2,584
oh yeah, i wasn't trying to indicate i believed my professor, its just nobody in our class had a rebuttal to prove my prof was wrong, i was just confused.

Fobra is offline  
post #9 of 43 (permalink) Old 03-30-2004, 02:57 PM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Oak Cliff
Posts: 241
I believe he did exist...

But I also believe that the sum of his character is actually a summation of several individuals, and that even with (only?) 50 years passing before someone wrote the story down, alot of adhoc reporting was creatively incorporated into his deeds.
bhoffman67 is offline  
post #10 of 43 (permalink) Old 03-30-2004, 03:25 PM
98 SVT Cobra
 
MoonDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Central IL
Posts: 5,109
Quote:
Originally posted by x_redhotcobra_x
oh yeah, i wasn't trying to indicate i believed my professor, its just nobody in our class had a rebuttal to prove my prof was wrong, i was just confused.
That is the problem with a lot of classes like that, Anthropology, Philosophy....Many of the professors are athiest or agnostic at best. They try to pose questions to make you question your own faith. Many christians dont know how to refute this.

Ummmm, this is interesting. Just found this.

In 630 AD, Muhammad invaded Mecca and cleared the Kaaba of idols. One of the idols belonged to Muhammad's Quraysh tribe. It was called Allah.
Quote:
Originally posted by bhoffman67
I believe he did exist...

But I also believe that the sum of his character is actually a summation of several individuals, and that even with (only?) 50 years passing before someone wrote the story down, alot of adhoc reporting was creatively incorporated into his deeds.
I dont believe that at all. Your basicly saying that the NT is just a bunch of made up stories not to be taken literally. Just good stories to teach you good morals.

When I said 50 years, that was when the last book, Revelation, was written. The Gospels were written somewhere around 50 AD. Thats less than 20 years after the crucifixion. The point I was making was that the whole NT was written before 100 AD, it took the over 500 years for the "words" of Buddha to be written down.
MoonDog is offline  
post #11 of 43 (permalink) Old 03-30-2004, 04:04 PM
TWIN SPINNER
 
Josh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: At Work
Posts: 3,208
Quote:
Originally posted by bhoffman67
I believe he did exist...

But I also believe that the sum of his character is actually a summation of several individuals, and that even with (only?) 50 years passing before someone wrote the story down, alot of adhoc reporting was creatively incorporated into his deeds.
50 years is not nearly enough time for legend to enter the story. Plus all the gospels and most every book in the New Testiment were written by eye witnesses of Jesus' ministry. No way that could happen.
Josh is offline  
post #12 of 43 (permalink) Old 03-30-2004, 05:12 PM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Oak Cliff
Posts: 241
50 years not enough? I guess you never heard that story of that guy who knew a guy who heard about a person who.... I'd say 50 minutes is enough for a legend to form.


And as far as your other point, it's laughable. You say it would have been impossible for a group of guys to get together and discuss one anothers stories before they wrote them down... or even compared notes as to not issue conflicting stories after writing them down.... ha. Yeah, NO way THAT could have happened.
bhoffman67 is offline  
post #13 of 43 (permalink) Old 03-30-2004, 06:05 PM
TWIN SPINNER
 
Josh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: At Work
Posts: 3,208
I have to conclude that you have never researched this. Have you? I have and your telephone analogy is a poor one. You have to understand the way the culture operated back 2000 years ago. There were no books, no newspapers, practically the only method to record history in a written form was on papyrus or stone. These were both expensive and laborious. So for the most part everyone memorized everything. It was not unusual for people to have the whole of the Old Testiment committed to memory. It was also the standard operating procedure when the scriptures, or any story for that matter, were being recited to interject at any point when the story strayed. So the Gospels, not being treated any differently, would have been monitered by the community for their integrity.

So you think the disciples conspired their story and fabricated the events of Jesus' ministry? These guys were hand picked for their integrity and character. You also have to remember that these guys had nothing to gain whatsoever out of a fabricated story. On the contrary all but one of Jesus' disciples were killed for their claims of Jesus.

I could go on and on. I encourage you to do some research on this. Or at least I would like to see some evidence supporting your tired old claims. People for years have been trying to undermine the validity of the Bible. They use unsupported claims, such as yourself, and they base their conclusions on nothing more than conjecture.
Josh is offline  
post #14 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-01-2004, 06:39 AM
Saved by Grace
 
72Comet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 870
Zoom in- 12 guys around the camp fire. Everbody got there laptops ready, what do you mean you forgot to charge your batteries Mark? Well you're going to have to write on a rock then.
Let's get our story straight, we followed this guy Jesus around for three years ok, we all quit our jobs and camped out all over the place. Be sure to put down in everybodys story that we didn't uderstand half of what he tryed to teach us, that will make us look dumb and our story more belivable. Make sure we all have down being witness to the same miracles, Lazaus, the blind dude ect. ok good. Hey, Peter remember when they came to arrest Jesus and you freaked out and cut that dudes ear off? That was some funny stuff, be sure and put that in. I don't know if we should let everybody know how scared we were, man some of this stuff is going to make us look like wusses. Whatever,lets get this meeting over with. I say we don't say anything about that bad trip we took on that new wine, when we thought we saw Jesus after he died. What did you say John? Put that in and say it was another miracle from God, ok everybody agree? Could have happened that way, what do you think?
72Comet is offline  
post #15 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-01-2004, 07:41 AM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Oak Cliff
Posts: 241
There were no books/etc. 2000 years ago because all but a tiny portion of the populace were illiterate… they had more important things to worry about, like making ends meet. I’m not saying they weren’t spiritual people, I’m just saying leisure time was damn near non-existent, and learning to read/write was a luxury.

As for when stories strayed (and they did all the time) there wasn’t anyone around to interject. The reason: If someone has already heard the story, they weren’t apt to sit around and hear it again and again… the stories primarily were told to folks who hadn’t heard it already… that’s the way a story (and religion) spreads. Also, the individuals telling the story couldn’t get their point across very well when another in their group was constantly correcting and contradicting them, it would be beneficial to the storyteller for only his words to be heard.

The disciples had nothing to gain? Are you kidding me? They were changing their world for the better… isn’t that the best anyone would ever hope for in a lifetime? For instance: If it would stop terrorism across this planet, I would tell the world anything, do anything.

As for being killed for their beliefs, big deal. It’s easy to die for one’s beliefs, harder to live for one’s beliefs, and harder yet to kill for one’s beliefs. BTW, I am not trying to undermine the validity of the Bible, it is no doubt the most influential BOOK ever written, and written by men of wisdom and intellect far outpacing my own.
bhoffman67 is offline  
post #16 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-01-2004, 12:28 PM
TWIN SPINNER
 
Josh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: At Work
Posts: 3,208
I will concede only to your point concerning illiteracy which certainly had much to do with there being fewer written texts 2000 years ago.
I will not concede however on your theory of whether or not people would sit and listen to the same story being told over and over again. I along with millions upon millions do this every Sunday. I have heard the same stories told hundreds of times. These people were no different. This was there belief system, which no doubt was much more a part of their lives than in ours.
Niether will I concede my point on what the Disciples had to gain. Nothing.

Gotta go for now. I'll return to this discussion later.

My car is for sale!
EBay Link
Josh is offline  
post #17 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-02-2004, 08:49 AM
Never settle always excel
 
Pro Trash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Dallas Area, Texas
Posts: 5,268
I believe the man existed because this is hat I have been taught my whole life. We are subjected to others opinions on the detaisl but one thing holds true, you have to have faith brother. I love history and I see that perceptions of history changes constantly through new discoveries. I have no doubt Jesus the son of God a carpenter existed. It is, what it is faith, kinda like some people on here have faith that their car will eventually go fast.
Pro Trash is offline  
post #18 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-02-2004, 12:43 PM
Time Served
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Oak Cliff
Posts: 241
Faith, yep that's all it boils down to in the end. Unfortunately, that can be controlled by standard (sorry for the use of the term here) brainwashing techniques - i.e. Have multiple people tell you hundreds of times each that "The moon is made of Swiss cheese" and eventually, that is what you'll believe.


As for the son of God bit, Jesus was, as we all are: The sons and daughters of God. Most religions have that same concept: That He/She/They "created" humankind.
bhoffman67 is offline  
post #19 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-02-2004, 12:57 PM
TWIN SPINNER
 
Josh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: At Work
Posts: 3,208
Lightbulb

Okay then...lets make all things equal and just turn it around. Everyone that believes in Darwinian Evolution is brainwashed. Just tell them 100s and 100s of times that is true and they'll believe it.

Belief in Christ is a far cry from being brainwashed. Far cry. You realize that there are many very well educated people out there that are far too savvy to be duped by simple conjecture. I mean these guys have multiple doctorates ranging from Theology to Physics, Biology, Cosmology, you name it. There are very well informed people out there that believe in Jesus Christ. It is just silly to suggest that we are brainwashed.
Josh is offline  
post #20 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-02-2004, 10:17 PM
Never settle always excel
 
Pro Trash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Dallas Area, Texas
Posts: 5,268
Quote:
Originally posted by bhoffman67
Faith, yep that's all it boils down to in the end. Unfortunately, that can be controlled by standard (sorry for the use of the term here) brainwashing techniques - i.e. Have multiple people tell you hundreds of times each that "The moon is made of Swiss cheese" and eventually, that is what you'll believe.


As for the son of God bit, Jesus was, as we all are: The sons and daughters of God. Most religions have that same concept: That He/She/They "created" humankind.
I got a better one for ya. Say your right and maybe religion as I know it is faith and none of that ever occured. Ok worst case senario I die and nothing happens; however, if it vice versa and it all really happened as my faith says then I go to heaven and you get your hemroids toasted for can you say eternity. Uh you know I think I'll stay with the faith brother.
Pro Trash is offline  
post #21 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-19-2004, 12:18 AM
Lifer
 
N2Otorious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Tyler, TX.
Posts: 1,463
Quote:
Originally posted by Pro Trash
I got a better one for ya. Say your right and maybe religion as I know it is faith and none of that ever occured. Ok worst case senario I die and nothing happens; however, if it vice versa and it all really happened as my faith says then I go to heaven and you get your hemroids toasted for can you say eternity. Uh you know I think I'll stay with the faith brother.
You'd be shocked at how many times so-called belivers have told me that. I then ask you after what you have just stated, What you are telling me is you attend church, worship Jesus, God, ETC. not really out of belief, but out of fear that it might be real? This sounds like a form of terrorism to me.


1993 Mustang LE LX - Street Strip(project)
2000 Lightning - Street Strip

N2Otorious is offline  
post #22 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-19-2004, 07:04 AM
98 SVT Cobra
 
MoonDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Central IL
Posts: 5,109
Quote:
Originally posted by N2Otorious
You'd be shocked at how many times so-called belivers have told me that. I then ask you after what you have just stated, What you are telling me is you attend church, worship Jesus, God, ETC. not really out of belief, but out of fear that it might be real? This sounds like a form of terrorism to me.
No, he is just taking a more logical standpoint then you are. I am sure he truly believes what he does. And I am sure you truly believe what you do. The only difference is that what he believes is more logical then your belief.
MoonDog is offline  
post #23 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-19-2004, 07:20 AM
Lifer
 
N2Otorious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Tyler, TX.
Posts: 1,463
Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
No, he is just taking a more logical standpoint then you are. I am sure he truly believes what he does. And I am sure you truly believe what you do. The only difference is that what he believes is more logical then your belief.
Of course that is based on your oppion.


1993 Mustang LE LX - Street Strip(project)
2000 Lightning - Street Strip

N2Otorious is offline  
post #24 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-19-2004, 07:38 AM
98 SVT Cobra
 
MoonDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Central IL
Posts: 5,109
Quote:
Originally posted by N2Otorious
Of course that is based on your oppion.
Well if you think that then your not very bright.

If your right in your beliefs, we all die and thats it, no big deal.
If christians are right, we all die and thats not it, it is a big deal to those who dont believe.

How can you not see the only LOGICAL way would be the way of christianity. I am not saying to accept Christ because it is logical, if you truly dont believe then it is pointless. I am saying that it is a more logical belief than to believe nothing.

Personally I think that many people dont accept Christ because they are more afraid of what their friends will think and will make fun of them. I also think that "friends" who make fun of you because of your beliefs are really friends.
MoonDog is offline  
post #25 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-19-2004, 08:46 AM
Lifer
 
N2Otorious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Tyler, TX.
Posts: 1,463
Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
Well if you think that then your not very bright.

If your right in your beliefs, we all die and thats it, no big deal.
If christians are right, we all die and thats not it, it is a big deal to those who dont believe.

How can you not see the only LOGICAL way would be the way of christianity. I am not saying to accept Christ because it is logical, if you truly dont believe then it is pointless. I am saying that it is a more logical belief than to believe nothing.

Personally I think that many people dont accept Christ because they are more afraid of what their friends will think and will make fun of them. I also think that "friends" who make fun of you because of your beliefs are really friends.
Hell I was thinking just the opposite. If you were to use logic and reasoning, then you would not believe in the bible, as it not one book with one aurthor, but is about 66 books written by many aurthors in foriegn tounge. I also feel the need to mention the multitude of contridictions in the bible as a whole.

Personally I think alot of christian posers are doing it to please family members, loved ones, or to be accepted by friends. I found myself very reluctant to disclose the fact that I do not believe on many many ocassions. How smart would it be to list that on an job application? It also would most certainly be a carreer limiting move to have a religious discussion at work.


1993 Mustang LE LX - Street Strip(project)
2000 Lightning - Street Strip

N2Otorious is offline  
post #26 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-19-2004, 10:35 AM
98 SVT Cobra
 
MoonDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Central IL
Posts: 5,109
Quote:
Originally posted by N2Otorious
Hell I was thinking just the opposite. If you were to use logic and reasoning, then you would not believe in the bible, as it not one book with one aurthor, but is about 66 books written by many aurthors in foriegn tounge. I also feel the need to mention the multitude of contridictions in the bible as a whole.
Can you list some of these contradictions? Because I personally am not aware of any. Enlighten me.

The Bible was writen over a period of 1700-2000 years. And no one contradicts another. It is a group of historical documents whose meaning and words have never changed.
Quote:
Personally I think alot of christian posers are doing it to please family members, loved ones, or to be accepted by friends. I found myself very reluctant to disclose the fact that I do not believe on many many ocassions.
This may very well be true, but these poeple would not be deemed christians now then would they.
Quote:
How smart would it be to list that on an job application? It also would most certainly be a carreer limiting move to have a religious discussion at work.
That should make no difference at all since we have laws prohibiting discrimination against such things. Plus it may also depend of what type of job we are talking about also and if religious discussions at work are interfering with normal work flow.
MoonDog is offline  
post #27 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-19-2004, 10:56 AM
Lifer
 
N2Otorious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Tyler, TX.
Posts: 1,463
Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
Can you list some of these contradictions? Because I personally am not aware of any. Enlighten me.


There are plenty and I'll talk about them. Let's start with. How old does the bible claim the earth is?

Quote:

This may very well be true, but these poeple would not be deemed christians now then would they.
Agreed... Would you also agree that anyone who states "I goto church every sunday, pay tides(spelling?) and do everything I as a christian am suppose to do because I fear that all the storys in the bible and god might be real, and if they aren't no biggie, I lived a good life." Would not be a Chritian/believer/saved either?


Quote:
That should make no difference at all since we have laws prohibiting discrimination against such things. Plus it may also depend of what type of job we are talking about also and if religious discussions at work are interfering with normal work flow.
Murder is illegal also, but it happens everyday. We have laws against racil profiling, but it happens.


1993 Mustang LE LX - Street Strip(project)
2000 Lightning - Street Strip

N2Otorious is offline  
post #28 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-19-2004, 12:05 PM
98 SVT Cobra
 
MoonDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Central IL
Posts: 5,109
Quote:
Originally posted by N2Otorious
There are plenty and I'll talk about them. Let's start with. How old does the bible claim the earth is?
Is that the best you can come up with? The bible does not state anywhere how old the earth is.

Quote:
Originally posted by N2Otorious
Agreed... Would you also agree that anyone who states "I goto church every sunday, pay tides(spelling?) and do everything I as a christian am suppose to do because I fear that all the storys in the bible and god might be real, and if they aren't no biggie, I lived a good life." Would not be a Chritian/believer/saved either?
You for forgot, confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead. Add that and I will believe that the person is saved.
MoonDog is offline  
post #29 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-19-2004, 06:19 PM
not exclude
 
exlude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,838
Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
Well if you think that then your not very bright.

If your right in your beliefs, we all die and thats it, no big deal.
If christians are right, we all die and thats not it, it is a big deal to those who dont believe.

How can you not see the only LOGICAL way would be the way of christianity. I am not saying to accept Christ because it is logical, if you truly dont believe then it is pointless. I am saying that it is a more logical belief than to believe nothing.

Personally I think that many people dont accept Christ because they are more afraid of what their friends will think and will make fun of them. I also think that "friends" who make fun of you because of your beliefs are really friends.
It is not necessarily "logical" to believe...I don't see how you can claim that. If you live in fear of an afterlife, then sure, it makes sense to believe. But as for it just being a logical belief hands down...I dissagree.

In no way am I going to believe in something out of fear. And I would not recommend anyone, even current Christians, believe simply because they fear the judgement. If the only reason you act the way you do is to avoid punishment, you are missing out on the part of good will and intention.

I believe what I believe because it makes most sense to me, I have thoroughly contemplated it...and decided this is the way things worked. Just as you did for Christ and a biblical history. Now why would I turn to a completely different faith purely based on such fear? Isn't that a little dishonest with myself?
exlude is offline  
post #30 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-19-2004, 10:06 PM
Lifer
 
N2Otorious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Tyler, TX.
Posts: 1,463
Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
Is that the best you can come up with? The bible does not state anywhere how old the earth is.


No, just openers... This will not be a 5 post splash and that is it... Wouldn't leave anytime for real details...

I'm trying to understand what you believe. Did man and Dinosaur walk the eart together?

About what time was Adam and Eve created?



Quote:
You for forgot, confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead. Add that and I will believe that the person is saved.
I would think that person isn't saved because, they truely do not belive in their hearts if they are saying, I worship god "Just in case".


1993 Mustang LE LX - Street Strip(project)
2000 Lightning - Street Strip

N2Otorious is offline  
post #31 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-20-2004, 12:18 AM
TWIN SPINNER
 
Josh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: At Work
Posts: 3,208
Quote:
Originally posted by Pro Trash
I got a better one for ya. Say your right and maybe religion as I know it is faith and none of that ever occured. Ok worst case senario I die and nothing happens; however, if it vice versa and it all really happened as my faith says then I go to heaven and you get your hemroids toasted for can you say eternity. Uh you know I think I'll stay with the faith brother.
I know your intentions are likely good but that is probably not the best way to convince someone commit their life to Christ. If I was not absolutely sure that Jesus was the real deal I sure wouldn't waist my time getting up early on Sunday and giving my hard earned money away. I'd be partying it up with the best of them at the local strip joint. But I am persuaded by the overwhelming amount of evedince that He is real and therefore my life is commited to Him.

My car is for sale!
EBay Link
Josh is offline  
post #32 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-20-2004, 12:26 AM
TWIN SPINNER
 
Josh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: At Work
Posts: 3,208
Quote:
Originally posted by exlude
It is not necessarily "logical" to believe...I don't see how you can claim that. If you live in fear of an afterlife, then sure, it makes sense to believe. But as for it just being a logical belief hands down...I dissagree.

In no way am I going to believe in something out of fear. And I would not recommend anyone, even current Christians, believe simply because they fear the judgement. If the only reason you act the way you do is to avoid punishment, you are missing out on the part of good will and intention.

I believe what I believe because it makes most sense to me, I have thoroughly contemplated it...and decided this is the way things worked. Just as you did for Christ and a biblical history. Now why would I turn to a completely different faith purely based on such fear? Isn't that a little dishonest with myself?
I agree. However, there is a benefit to fear. The one good thing about fear of a judgment, death, and a real eternal Hell is that it will cause many to at least consider looking into the subjects of faith, religion, and God. I think that there is a reason that Jesus spoke more about Hell than He did about Heaven.
Josh is offline  
post #33 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-20-2004, 12:46 AM
TWIN SPINNER
 
Josh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: At Work
Posts: 3,208
Quote:
Originally posted by N2Otorious
No, just openers... This will not be a 5 post splash and that is it... Wouldn't leave anytime for real details...

I'm trying to understand what you believe. Did man and Dinosaur walk the eart together?

About what time was Adam and Eve created?
I believe they walked together.
I believe that Adam and Eve were created a little more than 6000 years ago.

The Bible does not specifically suggest a time for the Creation nor does it directly state that dinosaurs exsisted with man. However it does leave us clues to direct us toward these conclusions.

My car is for sale!
EBay Link
Josh is offline  
post #34 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-20-2004, 10:07 AM
Lifer
 
N2Otorious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Tyler, TX.
Posts: 1,463
Quote:
Originally posted by Josh
I agree. However, there is a benefit to fear. The one good thing about fear of a judgment, death, and a real eternal Hell is that it will cause many to at least consider looking into the subjects of faith, religion, and God. I think that there is a reason that Jesus spoke more about Hell than He did about Heaven.
How could you love something that you fear? If you love something you should embrass it. I love my wife and she finds herself in my loving embrass often. I fear death yet I do not love death, I fear our child being kid napped yet I do not love kidnappers. Fear is bad.


1993 Mustang LE LX - Street Strip(project)
2000 Lightning - Street Strip

N2Otorious is offline  
post #35 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-20-2004, 10:13 AM
Boost is Good
 
The Punisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: With Weapons of Mass Instruction
Posts: 3,135
Quote:
Originally posted by N2Otorious
How could you love something that you fear? If you love something you should embrass it. I love my wife and she finds herself in my loving embrass often. I fear death yet I do not love death, I fear our child being kid napped yet I do not love kidnappers. Fear is bad.
Love is often mistaken as an emotion, but its more than that, its a verb. What do think Jesus meant when He said "Love your enemies". He did not me emotionally be in love with them, but do good unto them, speak highly of them, and have compassion for them.

Compareing God with Death is compareing apples to oranges. I love my dad, but yet I fear my dad b/c I want his approval. And as a child I still loved my dad, but feared him when I did something wrong of corporal punishment.

Stand by or fight while Obama wages his war against capitalism...

Last edited by 281R; 04-20-2004 at 10:17 AM.
The Punisher is offline  
post #36 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-20-2004, 11:02 AM
98 SVT Cobra
 
MoonDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Central IL
Posts: 5,109
Quote:
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Fear:

A feeling of agitation and anxiety caused by the presence or imminence of danger.
A state or condition marked by this feeling: living in fear.
A feeling of disquiet or apprehension: a fear of looking foolish.
Extreme reverence or awe, as toward a supreme power.
A reason for dread or apprehension: Being alone is my greatest fear.
MoonDog is offline  
post #37 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-20-2004, 11:09 AM
98 SVT Cobra
 
MoonDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Central IL
Posts: 5,109
Quote:
Originally posted by N2Otorious
No, just openers... This will not be a 5 post splash and that is it... Wouldn't leave anytime for real details...

I'm trying to understand what you believe. Did man and Dinosaur walk the eart together?

About what time was Adam and Eve created?

I would think that person isn't saved because, they truely do not belive in their hearts if they are saying, I worship god "Just in case".
I am going to echo what Josh said. Yes, I believe man and dinosaurs walked on earth together, Job 41 is where we get this.

Adam and Eve were created sometime around 6000 years ago. We get this because of some historical truths such as the time King David reigned in Israel. If we take that date and count backwards the years outlined in the bible for how many years the judges ruled and the years that whoever begat whoever it comes to right around 4000 BC. I actually have it at 3944 BC but whose counting? I can even send you my spreadsheet.
MoonDog is offline  
post #38 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-20-2004, 02:57 PM
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 421
for some further insight - check out my in depth post for Bible Skeptics...
four5.0snomore is offline  
post #39 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-20-2004, 08:38 PM
TWIN SPINNER
 
Josh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: At Work
Posts: 3,208
Quote:
Originally posted by N2Otorious
How could you love something that you fear? If you love something you should embrass it. I love my wife and she finds herself in my loving embrass often. I fear death yet I do not love death, I fear our child being kid napped yet I do not love kidnappers. Fear is bad.
I was not clear enough I guess. I think the fear of death and Hell can be usefull to lead the unsaved toward some answers. It at least gives some people enough motivation to check out whether the facts stack up high enough.

My car is for sale!
EBay Link
Josh is offline  
post #40 of 43 (permalink) Old 04-20-2004, 10:38 PM
98 SVT Cobra
 
MoonDog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Central IL
Posts: 5,109
Quote:
Originally posted by Josh
I was not clear enough I guess. I think the fear of death and Hell can be usefull to lead the unsaved toward some answers. It at least gives some people enough motivation to check out whether the facts stack up high enough.
What really got me back to following the Lord was the fear of not knowing if I was going to spend eternity in hell away from my family or not if I died.
MoonDog is offline  
post #41 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-05-2004, 03:09 PM
pronounced TOWER!
 
TOWAR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: LS1VILLE TEXAS
Posts: 345
YOU GUYS CAN ARGUE TILL THE END OF YOUR TIME,BUT WHAT IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO IS A WHOLE LOTTA FAITH.
TOWAR is offline  
post #42 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-05-2004, 07:06 PM
Boost is Good
 
The Punisher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: With Weapons of Mass Instruction
Posts: 3,135
Quote:
Originally posted by TOWAR
YOU GUYS CAN ARGUE TILL THE END OF YOUR TIME,BUT WHAT IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO IS A WHOLE LOTTA FAITH.
yes sir, we live by faith
The Punisher is offline  
post #43 of 43 (permalink) Old 05-11-2004, 04:26 PM
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,216
Re: Did Jesus really exist?

Quote:
Originally posted by x_redhotcobra_x
I dont know if this has been brought up, but it has been brought up several times in my Anthropology class by my professor. If I remember correctly, his argument was since supposidly the Romans crusified him according to the Bible, there is no actual Roman documentation of their being a Jesus Christ being crusified. So how do we know Jesus existed if Roman history does not mention him?
you need to read thte book, The case for Christ.
dallasstars281 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the DFWstangs Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in










Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome