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post #1 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-14-2004, 12:23 AM Thread Starter
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End Times Prophecy

I think I saw a thread in here awhile ago about this topic, but just wanted to see if you guys wanted to start another. What does Scripture say? What has already been fufilled? Are we close to the Second Coming (Glorious Appearing) or the Rapture? Thoughts? Questions?

*On a side note, I chose to have my first thread started in here on my 10,000th post..

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post #2 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-14-2004, 02:01 PM
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My view.





Mat 24:31 I believe is discribing the "rapture"
Rev 7:9 I believe is the church that was "raptured"

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post #3 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-14-2004, 07:19 PM Thread Starter
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Originally posted by MoonDog
My view.





Mat 24:31 I believe is discribing the "rapture"
Rev 7:9 I believe is the church that was "raptured"
So you think the Rapture will happen at the end of the Tribulation?
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post #4 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-14-2004, 08:20 PM
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So you think the Rapture will happen at the end of the Tribulation?
No. If you look at the chart, it shows the rapture happening at some point after the middle of the tribulation, which is the abonomation of desolation spoken of by both Daniel and Jesus. But happening before the wraith of God which is the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls. So maybe somewhere around 5 years into the tribulation period, give or take 6 months.
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post #5 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-14-2004, 09:28 PM Thread Starter
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Originally posted by MoonDog
No. If you look at the chart, it shows the rapture happening at some point after the middle of the tribulation, which is the abonomation of desolation spoken of by both Daniel and Jesus. But happening before the wraith of God which is the 7 trumpets and 7 bowls. So maybe somewhere around 5 years into the tribulation period, give or take 6 months.
I partly agree with that. I agree that Christians will miss the trumpet and bowl judgements when Raptured, but I don't agree that it will be in the middle or any part of the Tribulation. I believe it will happen before all the judgements including the Seal judgments (The 4 Horsemen) which is right before the trumpet judgements. I pull that beliefe from God saying that the church will not be appointed to his wrath. 1 Thess 1:9-10, 1 Thess 5:9, Rev 3:10

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post #6 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-14-2004, 10:08 PM
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I pull that beliefe from God saying that the church will not be appointed to his wrath. 1 Thess 1:9-10, 1 Thess 5:9, Rev 3:10
Absolutely. I believe that also. But I dont believe Gods wrath starts until Rev. 8. If it happens before Rev. 6 then who is the great multitude mentioned in Rev. 7:9.

Read Matt. 24 and then read Rev. 6. It is a re-telling the same events. Jesus says in Matt. 24 that after these things then you will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds.
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post #7 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-14-2004, 11:47 PM Thread Starter
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Originally posted by MoonDog
Absolutely. I believe that also. But I dont believe Gods wrath starts until Rev. 8. If it happens before Rev. 6 then who is the great multitude mentioned in Rev. 7:9.

Read Matt. 24 and then read Rev. 6. It is a re-telling the same events. Jesus says in Matt. 24 that after these things then you will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds.
I believe the great multitude to be the martyred tribulation saints. The people that come to Christ during the Tribulation because of the works of the two witnesses and the 144,000 jewish witnesses. I believe the 144,000 will be converting at around the same time as the two witnesses. And when the two witnesses are killed and then told by God to "Come up here"; around that time will be the mid point of the Tribulation (3.5 years/1260 days) when the Antichrist proclaims himself as god and has the statue built which he make the people worship. During the time he is in power and has called himself god, there will be many many Christians killed. Along with those who refuse the mark of the beast.

I guess it comes down to whether you believe the 4 horsemen to be part of the Tribulation or not. I do.

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post #8 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-15-2004, 06:45 AM
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I believe the great multitude to be the martyred tribulation saints. The people that come to Christ during the Tribulation because of the works of the two witnesses and the 144,000 jewish witnesses.
OK then, who are the souls under the alter mentioned in Rev. 6:9. Would they not be saints martyred during the tribulation because it says that they "were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held".
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post #9 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-15-2004, 08:31 AM
 
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Absolutely. I believe that also. But I dont believe Gods wrath starts until Rev. 8. If it happens before Rev. 6 then who is the great multitude mentioned in Rev. 7:9.

Read Matt. 24 and then read Rev. 6. It is a re-telling the same events. Jesus says in Matt. 24 that after these things then you will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds.
I am not totally settled on this issue of Matthew 24...I to used to think it was referencing the rapture, but now lean more towards it representing the 2nd coming.
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post #10 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-15-2004, 08:58 AM
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Originally posted by four5.0snomore
I am not totally settled on this issue of Matthew 24...I to used to think it was referencing the rapture, but now lean more towards it representing the 2nd coming.
Your jumping back and forth on this aren't you?

I remember you saying at one time that you believed in a pre-trib rapture but was leaning toward a mid-trib or later (which is my view). Where are you at right now?
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post #11 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-15-2004, 09:46 AM
 
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It is a difficult thing with some much information (opinions) out there. I have not really spent much time lately as there are much more important things to me right now. So, you are right...I have been back and forth and back anf forth and back again...Right now I would lean towards a pre-trib rapture.
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post #12 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-15-2004, 09:57 AM
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Originally posted by four5.0snomore
It is a difficult thing with some much information (opinions) out there. I have not really spent much time lately as there are much more important things to me right now. So, you are right...I have been back and forth and back anf forth and back again...Right now I would lean towards a pre-trib rapture.
I understand that, you being a pastor there are far more important things for you to deal with instead of worrying about the timing of the rapture. All that is really needed to know is that Jesus is coming and we need to be ready.
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post #13 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-15-2004, 10:36 AM
 
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I understand that, you being a pastor there are far more important things for you to deal with instead of worrying about the timing of the rapture. All that is really needed to know is that Jesus is coming and we need to be ready.
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post #14 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-15-2004, 11:34 AM Thread Starter
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OK then, who are the souls under the alter mentioned in Rev. 6:9. Would they not be saints martyred during the tribulation because it says that they "were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held".
I believe those under the alter are tribulation saints also. The whole book of Revelation is not written in chronological order. (At least I don't think so) Rev 7:14 :I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said,"These are they who have come out of the Great Tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

The first half of the Tribulation has the seal and trumpet judgments. The second half of the Tribulation with the bowl judgments is called the Great Tribulation. (like in the verse) I believe the saints in Rev.7:9-17 are the final group of saints to come out of the trib and then they all gather to praise God. In Rev 6:11 it says The each was given a white robe and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were killed as they had been was completed.

I think the great gathering of Rev 7:9-17 is when the number to be killed was completed. I don't think any Christians will be alive on earth when Jesus' second coming happens.
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post #15 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-15-2004, 12:30 PM
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I see it differently. The seven seals are listed in order, with the 5th seal being the martyred saints under the alter who have died for their beliefs during the tribulation. Then we have the 6th seal, cosmic disturbances and signs and finally the 7th seal which opens up the seven trumpets.

After this, John sees the multitude in heaven. He asks who they are. Since he was already told who the saints under the alter were this multitude has to be different. It says in 7:14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Now we have two groups of people 1) souls under the alter who died for their testamony 2) great multitude who came out of the tribulation. One of these groups has got to be the raptured saints otherwise there would be mentioned of another group somewhere before the 1st seal is even opened. But there is no mention of another group of people. John only sees those who have died and this multitude that suddenly appears.

Now, lets look at Matt 24.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. first seal
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. second seal
Mat 24:7b and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.third seal
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. fourth and fifth seals (souls under the alter)
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) middle of the tribulation
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:sixth seal
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. great multitude in heaven

Now, watch this, it says in verse 31 with a great sound of a trumpet. What happens when the seventh seal is opened? It releases the seven trumpets. And with the release of that first trumpet the saints are raptured and appear before the throne of God.
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post #16 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-15-2004, 01:22 PM Thread Starter
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Originally posted by MoonDog
I see it differently. The seven seals are listed in order, with the 5th seal being the martyred saints under the alter who have died for their beliefs during the tribulation. Then we have the 6th seal, cosmic disturbances and signs and finally the 7th seal which opens up the seven trumpets.

After this, John sees the multitude in heaven. He asks who they are. Since he was already told who the saints under the alter were this multitude has to be different. It says in 7:14) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Now we have two groups of people 1) souls under the alter who died for their testamony 2) great multitude who came out of the tribulation. One of these groups has got to be the raptured saints otherwise there would be mentioned of another group somewhere before the 1st seal is even opened. But there is no mention of another group of people. John only sees those who have died and this multitude that suddenly appears.

Now, lets look at Matt 24.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. first seal
Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. second seal
Mat 24:7b and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.third seal
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. fourth and fifth seals (souls under the alter)
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) middle of the tribulation
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:sixth seal
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. great multitude in heaven

Now, watch this, it says in verse 31 with a great sound of a trumpet. What happens when the seventh seal is opened? It releases the seven trumpets. And with the release of that first trumpet the saints are raptured and appear before the throne of God.
So you don't think the seals judgments are part of the tribulation?

The trumpet heard at the calling of the church for the rapture is not one of the trumpets during the trumpet judgments. 1 Thess 4:16-17 For the Lord himself will come down from Heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God and the dead will rise first, After that, we who are still left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. It's not a judgment trumpet, it's one reserved for the calling of the church.

The Seals are part of the wrath of God, part of his judgments on the earth. 1 thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath but to receive salvation through Jesus Christ. That would mean that the rapture will have to happen sometime before the tribulation since the seals start when the Tribulation starts at the signing of the covenant of the antichrist. So I guess I just want to know if you think the Seals are part of the tribulation?
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post #17 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-15-2004, 04:58 PM
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So you don't think the seals judgments are part of the tribulation?

The trumpet heard at the calling of the church for the rapture is not one of the trumpets during the trumpet judgments. 1 Thess 4:16-17 For the Lord himself will come down from Heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God and the dead will rise first, After that, we who are still left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. It's not a judgment trumpet, it's one reserved for the calling of the church.

The Seals are part of the wrath of God, part of his judgments on the earth. 1 thess 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath but to receive salvation through Jesus Christ. That would mean that the rapture will have to happen sometime before the tribulation since the seals start when the Tribulation starts at the signing of the covenant of the antichrist. So I guess I just want to know if you think the Seals are part of the tribulation?
Yes, the seals are part of the 7 year tribulation period.

The central theme of the prophet Joel is the Day of the Lord. In the clearest possible terms, he teaches that the Day of the Lord will commence with the blowing of a trumpet. The last trump will be nothing more or less than the final climatic outpouring of the wrath of God (Day of the Lord).

You quoted that God did not appoint us to wrath, your correct, He also said that we would not endure the Day of the Lord which many attribute to the 7 year tribulation. The Day of the Lord is not the whole 7 year period, it begins after the 6th seal is opened.
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Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
After this we see the 144,000 sealed by God and the great multitude appear in heaven.

Furthermore, God did not ever say that we would not endure tribulation and testing, only His wrath. Since His wrath does not begin until after the midpoint of the 70th week then all christians will enter that period and experience tribulations and trials and be raptured moments before the Day of the Lord when the wrath of God begins.
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post #18 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-16-2004, 11:36 AM Thread Starter
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Yes, the seals are part of the 7 year tribulation period.

The central theme of the prophet Joel is the Day of the Lord. In the clearest possible terms, he teaches that the Day of the Lord will commence with the blowing of a trumpet. The last trump will be nothing more or less than the final climatic outpouring of the wrath of God (Day of the Lord).

You quoted that God did not appoint us to wrath, your correct, He also said that we would not endure the Day of the Lord which many attribute to the 7 year tribulation. The Day of the Lord is not the whole 7 year period, it begins after the 6th seal is opened.
I disagree with you there. I consider the seal judgments as part of His wrath. The fourth horseman take a fourth of the world population. That is alot of people and all of the things that happen during the Seals is pretty terrible. Also, God refers to his people alot as the Church. The church is absent from Rev4-18. It is not mentioned again until the second coming in Rev 19 when the church returns to earth with Christ.

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After this we see the 144,000 sealed by God and the great multitude appear in heaven.
Are you saying that you think the 144,000 are the number raptured?

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Furthermore, God did not ever say that we would not endure tribulation and testing, only His wrath.
I disagree with this too. Here is why, Rev 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on earth. The entire tribulation is a time of trial and wrath poured out by God. It is judgment, but it is also God's finally act to the the world to realize that they have displeased God and that they should repent and turn to him. I believe the bible say that we will not go through that trials of the tribulation.
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post #19 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-16-2004, 05:32 PM
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I disagree with you there. I consider the seal judgments as part of His wrath. The fourth horseman take a fourth of the world population. That is alot of people and all of the things that happen during the Seals is pretty terrible. Also, God refers to his people alot as the Church. The church is absent from Rev4-18. It is not mentioned again until the second coming in Rev 19 when the church returns to earth with Christ.
Are the seals Gods wrath or Satans wrath? Reading the seals it says that "power was given" to them. If this was Gods wrath then power would not have to be given. Everywhere else in Revelation it metions that power is given to Satan. Like mentioned above, it says in Rev. 6:16-17 that the great day of His (Gods) wrath has come, after the seals have already been opened.
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Are you saying that you think the 144,000 are the number raptured?
No, 144,000 are the Jews that are sealed from Gods wrath, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.
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I disagree with this too. Here is why, Rev 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on earth. The entire tribulation is a time of trial and wrath poured out by God. It is judgment, but it is also God's finally act to the the world to realize that they have displeased God and that they should repent and turn to him. I believe the bible say that we will not go through that trials of the tribulation.
Ok, lets see if I can explain this.

Rev 13:1-4 decribes the Anti-christ and his world system (the first seal) correct?

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


Verse 7 of that same chapter it says,

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

*If the church had already been raptured there wouldn't be any saints to make war against.

Then in verse 10 it says,

Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

So it appears that the patience that Jesus is talking about in Rev. 3:10 may actually take place during the 7 years. Now, keep thee from the hour of temptation could, and probably does, mean nothing more that a person having a divine protection over them. There is no place in scripture that says that we will not endure trials and tribulations, infact it says quite the opposite.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
2Co 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2Co 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
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post #20 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-16-2004, 10:35 PM
 
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I am not totally settled on this issue of Matthew 24...I to used to think it was referencing the rapture, but now lean more towards it representing the 2nd coming.
Matthew 24: 3...And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what sall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world?


I am a new Christian, just recently born again, and I am not very knowledgeable on the Bible or the scriptures, but Matthew 24 to me addresses both issues...the second coming and the rapture. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I really enjoy this fellowship because it makes me research what you guys are talking about and helps me to learn the Bible more thoroughly.
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post #21 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-17-2004, 02:00 AM
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Welcome and congrats on becoming saved. Thats awesome!

Anyone who wants to read more about the "Pre-Wrath Rapture" that I am talking about, there is a great book by Marvin Rosenthal (Mesianic Jew) called oddly enough, "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church. I believed in a pre-trib rapture until I got ahold of this book and then everything made sense to me. I had alot of questions about this and that but the book really explained everything for me. When I first read this book I studied it along with the bible for about a year straight, very interesting stuff.

Or you can just hang around here and I will continue to post and try to explain it in my own words.
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post #22 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-17-2004, 03:00 AM Thread Starter
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Are the seals Gods wrath or Satans wrath? Reading the seals it says that "power was given" to them. If this was Gods wrath then power would not have to be given. Everywhere else in Revelation it metions that power is given to Satan. Like mentioned above, it says in Rev. 6:16-17 that the great day of His (Gods) wrath has come, after the seals have already been opened.
Just because God has/let's Satan, the Anitchrist, demons, angels or whoever do the actual dirty work, it is still in accordance to the will of God. None of it is allowed to happen until the the Lamb breaks the Seals of God's Judgments.

If you really want to get technical, God has allor most of his judgments carried out or initiated by someone other than him personally. (except the Seals because the Lamb is Jesus) He has angels blow the Trumpets, and pour out the Bowls. Angels are the ones who put the seals on the heads of the 144,000. Then, in Rev9:4-5 God tells the the "locusts", "...not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture then for five months. Those versus tell us, that the "locusts" were given the power to torture everyone without the Seal of God. And that is the Fifth Trumpet judgment,--one of the ones you say is part of Gods wrath,-- and God is giving power to the "locusts" during that judgment. Rev 9:15 says And the four Angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. In that judgment, God releases 4 Angel to lead a demonic army to kill a third of mankind. Again, God is giving power to others to carry out his work.

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No, 144,000 are the Jews that are sealed from Gods wrath, 12,000 from each of the 12 tribes.
Ok, just checking. We agree there.

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Ok, lets see if I can explain this.

Rev 13:1-4 decribes the Anti-christ and his world system (the first seal) correct?

Rev 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
Rev 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 13:4 And they worshiped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
No, that is not the first Seal. The first and second Seals are the Antichrist bringing peace be signing the covenant of peace with the world. (Seal One) The he break the covenant by making war against the "three Kings" or "three horns", (Seal two) also predicted by Daniel: Daniel 7:8 " While I was thinking about the horns, thee before me was another horn, a little one which came up among them; and the three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully." The three horns are part of the ten horns which represent ten kings. These three kings try to rebel and the Antichirst will defeat them.

Quote:
Verse 7 of that same chapter it says,

Rev 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

*If the church had already been raptured there wouldn't be any saints to make war against.
Those are the Tribulation saint that are killed due to not worshiping the Beast and staying true to their faith by not denying Christ.

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Then in verse 10 it says,

Rev 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

So it appears that the patience that Jesus is talking about in Rev. 3:10 may actually take place during the 7 years.
I agree. But that sentence is worded to the Tribulation Saints. The ones who come to God during the Tribulation will have to die during the Tribulation. And they will not be dying in their sleep, they are going to be dying in horrible unimaginable ways. But they will keep their faith and strength because of the words God has for them in the Bible. He is telling them through this book (revelation) and all other books of the Bible that they need to be ready to go through what they will have to endure and to be strong and solid in their beliefs because benefits they will receive afterwards will far out weight the pain they had to go through to get it.


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Now, keep thee from the hour of temptation could, and probably does, mean nothing more that a person having a divine protection over them. There is no place in scripture that says that we will not endure trials and tribulations, infact it says quite the opposite.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.
Rom 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
Rom 5:4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
2Co 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2Co 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
1Th 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
I agree that Christians are not free from trials and tribulations during life. And the Tribulation Saints,-- the people that come to Christ after the Rapture,-- will endure the greatest of all trials and tribulations, (that mankind will have to go through) But the verses I have given (and others I have not) prove to me that the evangelical church, which has stayed true to Christ and served him for so long, will escape the horrors of the entire Tribulation by a Pre-Trib Rapture. When it comes down to it, we both believe the same things, we just have a differance in opinion as to when certain parts will happen.

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post #23 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-17-2004, 03:48 AM Thread Starter
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I'm going back to this one for a sec also...


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Originally posted by MoonDog

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:sixth seal
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. great multitude in heaven

Rather than explain what I think about each part of Matt 24 I'll just focus on this part since right now we are discussing the Rapture.

These verses are talking about the Glorious Appearing (second coming). Your first and most obvious clue is in the first four word of Matt 24:29 : Immediately after the tribulation Also why would Christians knowing they are about to be raptured because they see Jesus and hear aloud trumpet call be mourning at his sight? Plus this description matches the Son of Man coming on the clouds and then setting up his kingdom on earth of Daniel's description.

Daniel 7:13-14 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of Heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."
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Originally posted by blacksunshine427
Matthew 24: 3...And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what sall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world?


I am a new Christian, just recently born again, and I am not very knowledgeable on the Bible or the scriptures, but Matthew 24 to me addresses both issues...the second coming and the rapture. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I really enjoy this fellowship because it makes me research what you guys are talking about and helps me to learn the Bible more thoroughly.
Welcome to the forum and back to the Flock of Christ. We tend ot learn together in this forum so stick around.

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Welcome and congrats on becoming saved. Thats awesome!

Anyone who wants to read more about the "Pre-Wrath Rapture" that I am talking about, there is a great book by Marvin Rosenthal (Mesianic Jew) called oddly enough, "The Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church. I believed in a pre-trib rapture until I got ahold of this book and then everything made sense to me. I had alot of questions about this and that but the book really explained everything for me. When I first read this book I studied it along with the bible for about a year straight, very interesting stuff.

Or you can just hang around here and I will continue to post and try to explain it in my own words.
Tell you what, I'll read that book as soon as I get done with the books I already have to read. (just 3 more) But you should read Are We Living in the End Times? by Tim La Haye and Jerry B. Jenkins. Then everything would really make sense. Serioulsy though, you should read it also.
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post #26 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-17-2004, 07:27 AM
 
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Matthew 24: 3...And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what sall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world?


I am a new Christian, just recently born again, and I am not very knowledgeable on the Bible or the scriptures, but Matthew 24 to me addresses both issues...the second coming and the rapture. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong. I really enjoy this fellowship because it makes me research what you guys are talking about and helps me to learn the Bible more thoroughly.
Hey Bro - WELCOME!

I hope you enjoy your stay...
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post #27 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-17-2004, 09:35 AM
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No, that is not the first Seal. The first and second Seals are the Antichrist bringing peace be signing the covenant of peace with the world. (Seal One) The he break the covenant by making war against the "three Kings" or "three horns", (Seal two) also predicted by Daniel: Daniel 7:8 " While I was thinking about the horns, thee before me was another horn, a little one which came up among them; and the three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully." The three horns are part of the ten horns which represent ten kings. These three kings try to rebel and the Antichirst will defeat them.

Those are the Tribulation saint that are killed due to not worshiping the Beast and staying true to their faith by not denying Christ.

I agree. But that sentence is worded to the Tribulation Saints. The ones who come to God during the Tribulation will have to die during the Tribulation. And they will not be dying in their sleep, they are going to be dying in horrible unimaginable ways. But they will keep their faith and strength because of the words God has for them in the Bible. He is telling them through this book (revelation) and all other books of the Bible that they need to be ready to go through what they will have to endure and to be strong and solid in their beliefs because benefits they will receive afterwards will far out weight the pain they had to go through to get it.
OK, lets focus on Rev. 13-1:7 for a moment. I said this was the first seal, and you said it was the first and the second seals. Correct? I will accept that.

My problem is this. If the church is supposedly raptured before the first seal, then how and why are there saints for the anti-christ (seal one) to make war against in seal two?

Also can you show me anywhere in the bible that calls the 70th week of Daniel the "Tribulation"? I know I have been calling it that but only for simplicity sake.
Quote:
Originally posted by breadfan35
I'm going back to this one for a sec also...

Rather than explain what I think about each part of Matt 24 I'll just focus on this part since right now we are discussing the Rapture.

These verses are talking about the Glorious Appearing (second coming). Your first and most obvious clue is in the first four word of Matt 24:29 : Immediately after the tribulation Also why would Christians knowing they are about to be raptured because they see Jesus and hear aloud trumpet call be mourning at his sight? Plus this description matches the Son of Man coming on the clouds and then setting up his kingdom on earth of Daniel's description.

Daniel 7:13-14 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of Heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."
If you read it in context you will see what is meant by tribulation.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) this is the midpoint, right?
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Jesus just mentioned a great tribulation and then he says after the tribulation. He is speaking of the same thing. This "tribulation" period starts after the anti-christ seats himself in the Holy of Holies and declares himself god. and continues until the opening of the 6th seal. (Mat. 24:29b)
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. these mourning are not the saints, they are the tribes of the earth who have followed after the beast.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. this is describing the rapture as outlined in 1Th 4:16-17

Further by your own admittance, you said I don't think any Christians will be alive on earth when Jesus' second coming happens. But you believe that verses 30 and 31 is the second coming. It states that when Jesus comes in the clouds that a trumpet is sounded and His "elect" is gathered. It doesn't jive, who is this "elect" that is being gathered if it isn't the saints being raptured and it isn't saints making it through the "tribulation"?

Might I also add this:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Here we see that the saints are not gathered together (raptured) until after the man of sin (anti-christ) is revealed. When is he revealed, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Daniel calls it the "abomination made desolate" and says that it happens in the middle of the 70th week.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Quote:
Originally posted by breadfan35
Tell you what, I'll read that book as soon as I get done with the books I already have to read. (just 3 more) But you should read Are We Living in the End Times? by Tim La Haye and Jerry B. Jenkins. Then everything would really make sense. Serioulsy though, you should read it also.
Well, I have not read it because I know basicly what it is going to say. I do like the fictional Left Behind books though, I have read them all. I will read it though since you asked.
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post #28 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-17-2004, 02:14 PM Thread Starter
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OK, lets focus on Rev. 13-1:7 for a moment. I said this was the first seal, and you said it was the first and the second seals. Correct? I will accept that.

My problem is this. If the church is supposedly raptured before the first seal, then how and why are there saints for the anti-christ (seal one) to make war against in seal two?
Those Saints are the ones who come to Christ during the tribulation due to the works of the Two Witnesses and the 144,000 Witnesses. There will be a great many who come to Christ during the tribulation. Obviously there wil be more non-believers thatn believers, but the number of those won for Christ will be great. Joel 2:28-32 And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my spirit in those days. I will show wonders in the Heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deeliverance, and the Lord has said among the survivors whom the Lord calls. Also Daniel 12:9-10 He replied," Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. Many will be purified and made spotless and refined, bu the wicked will continue to be wicked. None of the wicked will understand, but those whoare wise will understand. Thsoe versus tell us that there wil be many who come to the Lord during the Tribulation. Rev 13:5-8says that "The Beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exersice his authority for fourty-two months. (This 42 month period starts when the Beast desecrates the Temple by Proclaiming himself as God. That Happens in the middle period of the Tribulation meaning that the 42 month period stars after the first half of the trib. Then...) He opened his mouth to blasheme God and slander his name and his Dwelling place and those wholive in Heaven. He was given power to make War against the saints and to conquer them. Thefore the people he wakes war agains t are thos who have come to Christ during the Tribulation. If the Rapture happend right before the second half of the Tribulation (the Great Tribulation) then Who would be left for the Beast to make war against? The only way it makes sense is if the Rapture had happend before and during the Tribulation many had been coming to Christ.

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Also can you show me anywhere in the bible that calls the 70th week of Daniel the "Tribulation"? I know I have been calling it that but only for simplicity sake.
To my knowledge, Daniel never uses the term "Tribulation". But just becasue eh doesn't say that term doesn't mean that is not what he is talkling about. Daniel 9: 26-27 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One (The Messiah) will be cut off and wil have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come ( the Antichrist) will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end and desolations have been decreed. He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' (the 7 year Tribulation) in the middle of the 'seven' (the 7 year Tribulation) he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the Temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. Daniel is clearly talking about the Tribulation. He does not have to say the term Tribulation to be able to see that.

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If you read it in context you will see what is meant by tribulation.

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) this is the midpoint, right?
Right.

Quote:
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Jesus just mentioned a great tribulation and then he says after the tribulation. He is speaking of the same thing. This "tribulation" period starts after the anti-christ seats himself in the Holy of Holies and declares himself god. and continues until the opening of the 6th seal. (Mat. 24:29b)
True, he is tallking about the same Tribulation, the Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation is the name for the Second half of the Tribulation becasue God's wrath is the greater in the second half of it. That is not the events up to Sixth Seal. The Seventh Seal begins the Trumpet Judgments, which start after the The Anitchrist declares himself to be god. When the Anitchrist first comes unto the sene he is just a very good politician who gets a Peace covenant signed with Isereal. (the First Seal) Then the one world gov't and one world religion are started. The Antichrist will be the head of this one world gov't. Three kings will rebel against him and he will crush them (the war of the Second Seal) during this time those who come to Christ will be persecuted and killed for not following and speaking out against the one world gov't and religion. (fifth Seal) Then the Sith Seal happens and then the Trumpets. Sometime during this time the Antichrist will becieve a fatal wound, but it will be healed. Thus it will sem that the Beast dided and was resurected. An imitation of Christs' resuraction. For this at of falsehood, " the Whole world was astonished and followes the beast." (Rev 13:3) Then he will set himself in the Temple and proclaim to be god. The the Great Tribulation begins, the Bowl judgments.



Quote:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. these mourning are not the saints, they are the tribes of the earth who have followed after the beast.
Agreed.

Quote:
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. this is describing the rapture as outlined in 1Th 4:16-17

Further by your own admittance, you said I don't think any Christians will be alive on earth when Jesus' second coming happens. But you believe that verses 30 and 31 is the second coming. It states that when Jesus comes in the clouds that a trumpet is sounded and His "elect" is gathered. It doesn't jive, who is this "elect" that is being gathered if it isn't the saints being raptured and it isn't saints making it through the "tribulation"?[/B]
The elect are those who are in heaven with Jesus. Rev 19:14 The armies of heavan were following Him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white, and clean. This army are the followers of Christ that were Raptured and the people who died during the Tribulation.

Quote:
Might I also add this:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Here we see that the saints are not gathered together (raptured) until after the man of sin (anti-christ) is revealed. When is he revealed, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Daniel calls it the "abomination made desolate" and says that it happens in the middle of the 70th week.

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

His making the Covenant will reveal him to the believers fo the world. I have to go to work, but I'll post more when I have the time on this last point

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post #29 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-17-2004, 04:03 PM
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I will come back and comment on what you posted but I thought I would add this first. You say the Day of the Lord is the full 7 year "tribulation" period, correct?

I say that it is not the whole 7 years but starts sometime during the second half just as the 7th seal is opened. The Day of the Lord is the Trumpet and Vail judgements.

Rev 11:3 says: And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. The two witnesses (Moses and Elijah) are here for 42 months or 3 1/2 years.

Mal 4:5,6 says Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. Elijah (and Moses with him) signals that the Day of the Lord is coming.

Now, Elijah comes before the Day of the Lord and is here for 3 1/2 years. If the Day of the Lord starts with the rapture of the saints when the covenant with the anti-christ is signed then Elijah would have to already be here. So believers would already know in advance before the signing of the covenant because Elijah and Moses would be here preaching.

We have a dilemma, either the covenant between Israel and the anti-christ does not signal the start of the 70th week, it is the coming of Elijah or the Day of the Lord can not be the whole 70th week and Elijah comes at some point after, just like I have been saying.

The typical pre-tribulational view is that the whole 70th week is called the Day of the Lord.
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post #30 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-18-2004, 02:13 AM Thread Starter
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I will come back and comment on what you posted but I thought I would add this first. You say the Day of the Lord is the full 7 year "tribulation" period, correct?
No, I do not think that everytime the term The day of the Lord is used (or a form of that term) It is talking about the entire Tribulation. For instance Zephaniah 1: 14-18 I believe is referring the the actual Day of the Lord, the Day of His second coming as also told in Rev 19:11-21.



Quote:
Rev 11:3 says: And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. The two witnesses (Moses and Elijah) are here for 42 months or 3 1/2 years.

Mal 4:5,6 says Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. Elijah (and Moses with him) signals that the Day of the Lord is coming.

Now, Elijah comes before the Day of the Lord and is here for 3 1/2 years. If the Day of the Lord starts with the rapture of the saints when the covenant with the anti-christ is signed then Elijah would have to already be here. So believers would already know in advance before the signing of the covenant because Elijah and Moses would be here preaching.

We have a dilemma, either the covenant between Israel and the anti-christ does not signal the start of the 70th week, it is the coming of Elijah or the Day of the Lord can not be the whole 70th week and Elijah comes at some point after, just like I have been saying.
I believe the Day of the Lord spoke of in Malachi is also in reference to the Day of the Second Coming. If it is, then Elijah's time would have occurred before his second coming since he is about during the first half. Everything else I agree with. I Also think that the Two Witnesses will be Moses and Elijah.

Both of use have made pretty good cases as to what we believe and why. (as I said earlier, "When it comes down to it, we both believe the same things, we just have a difference in opinion as to when certain parts will happen.") But now, unless you really want to keep talking about this, I'd like to move on to other areas also. At least for a bit. I want to talk about other issues other than just the rapture like, what signs (of the end times) have already been fulfilled? Do you think it will happen in the next 50 years?100 Years?

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post #31 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-19-2004, 10:10 AM
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At least for a bit. I want to talk about other issues other than just the rapture like, what signs (of the end times) have already been fulfilled? Do you think it will happen in the next 50 years?100 Years?
I am not really sure at this point. I dont really watch enough "prophecy news" shows like Jack Van Impe or Prophecy In The News, I probably should though. So alot of what goes on I am not sure how it plays or doesn't play when it comes to fullfilling prophecy. One thing I kinda have a problem with is that alot of the news that happens around the world can is one way or another be "twisted" to make it fit prophetic events. Also, people have been saying for decades that we are in the last days but nothing has happened yet. I guess what I am really trying to say is that I really dont think it will happen in our lifetime although I hope that it does. And I am watching for certain things to happen, red heifer, rebuilding of temple, etc....etc....

Plus ofcourse, I am looking for the signing of the peace agreement and the unfolding of the first six seals.
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post #32 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 01:40 AM Thread Starter
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I am not really sure at this point. I dont really watch enough "prophecy news" shows like Jack Van Impe or Prophecy In The News, I probably should though. So alot of what goes on I am not sure how it plays or doesn't play when it comes to fullfilling prophecy. One thing I kinda have a problem with is that alot of the news that happens around the world can is one way or another be "twisted" to make it fit prophetic events. Also, people have been saying for decades that we are in the last days but nothing has happened yet. I guess what I am really trying to say is that I really dont think it will happen in our lifetime although I hope that it does. And I am watching for certain things to happen, red heifer, rebuilding of temple, etc....etc....

Plus ofcourse, I am looking for the signing of the peace agreement and the unfolding of the first six seals.
There is actually a show with propehcy news? I didn't know that. Well a few things and signs of the end timesare Israel becoming a nation again, the United Nations being formed and Babylon being rebuilt.
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post #33 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by breadfan35
There is actually a show with propehcy news? I didn't know that. Well a few things and signs of the end timesare Israel becoming a nation again, the United Nations being formed and Babylon being rebuilt.
With the exception of the regathering of Israel the others are speculation and up for debate. It is all in how you interpret scripture.

Could the 10 headed beast be the UN, sure, it could be the EU also. Or maybe another union to be formed sometime in the future. As far as Babylon, wasn't that pretty much destoyed by US troops? In order for that to be rebuilt you would need to have another leader arise with the same mind-set as Hussain and he would have to start the rebuilding of Nebuchadnezzar's temple.
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post #34 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-23-2004, 11:58 AM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
With the exception of the regathering of Israel the others are speculation and up for debate. It is all in how you interpret scripture.

Could the 10 headed beast be the UN, sure, it could be the EU also. Or maybe another union to be formed sometime in the future. As far as Babylon, wasn't that pretty much destoyed by US troops? In order for that to be rebuilt you would need to have another leader arise with the same mind-set as Hussain and he would have to start the rebuilding of Nebuchadnezzar's temple.
I thought I heard it was not hit by the US, but either way I'm pretty sure it was not fully complete yet anyways. But Neb's palace was built.








More picks taken April 16, 2003:


url="http://www.arcent.army.mil/cflcc_today/2003/april/images/apr12_16/Babylon,%20Nebuchadnezzar's%20palace%20(SMALL).jpg"]The walls of Nebuchadnezzar's Southern Palace[/url]


One of Saddam Hussein's palaces

Last edited by breadfan35; 03-23-2004 at 12:06 PM.
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post #35 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-25-2004, 01:56 PM Thread Starter
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Upon more research...



Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog



Mal 4:5,6 says Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. Elijah (and Moses with him) signals that the Day of the Lord is coming.

There is evidence to show that this verse is not talking about the tribulation at all, but of Jesus's first coming, and that John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecy.

Luke 1:13 But the Angel said to him: Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John...(Lk 1:16-17) Many of the people of Israel will he bring back to the Lord their God. And he will go on before the Lord in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous - to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Then Jesus said:

Matthew 11:14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come

Also

Matthew 17:10-13 The disciples asked him, "Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?" To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done everything they wished. In the same way, the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

So the evidence points to Malachi 4:5 as not being an end times prophecy, but a prophecy of Jesus first coming.

Last edited by breadfan35; 03-25-2004 at 01:59 PM.
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post #36 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-25-2004, 04:04 PM
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Those are pretty cool pictures of Iraq.

It says I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
When Jesus came the first time it is not known as the Day of the Lord and it certainly wasn't dreadful, but Malachi mentions this. Also when John the Baptist is asked if he is Elijah he says No, he was not.
Quote:
Joh 1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
Joh 1:20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
Joh 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elijah? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that Prophet? And he answered, No.
Joh 1:22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself?
Joh 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Isaiah.
Now, I do believe that John had the same spirit of ministry that Elijah had.

Quote:
Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.
Eze 30:3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
Joe 1:15 Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Joe 2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joe 2:11 And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
Joe 3:14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Amo 5:18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
Amo 5:20 Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
Zep 1:18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
All these verses point to the Day of the Lord as being a day of anger, vengeance, time of the heathen, destruction, trembling, terrible, dark and not light, decision, devouring, coming as a theif in the night.

There is only one Day of the Lord and that is the time of Gods Wrath. IMHO
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post #37 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-25-2004, 11:34 PM Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally posted by MoonDog
Those are pretty cool pictures of Iraq.

It says I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD.
When Jesus came the first time it is not known as the Day of the Lord and it certainly wasn't dreadful, but Malachi mentions this. Also when John the Baptist is asked if he is Elijah he says No, he was not.
I know that John said he was not Elijah, But I don't think Mal 4:5 meant a reincarnation of Elijah, but someone who resembles him in spirit. And I understand what you are saying about the dreadful part, but Jesus himself said that he was the Elijah to come. Plus Luke 1:16-17 uses the same phrases as Malachi as said by the Angel of the Lord. The dreadful part could be interpreted meaning dreadful to the wicked because when Christ came he ended the age of sin and the age of Grace began. That entire chapter Mal 4 can be interpreted as talking about Jesus first coming.



Quote:
All these verses point to the Day of the Lord as being a day of anger, vengeance, time of the heathen, destruction, trembling, terrible, dark and not light, decision, devouring, coming as a theif in the night.

There is only one Day of the Lord and that is the time of Gods Wrath. IMHO
If what I stated above is the true way to interpret it, then that gives weight to the argument that not every time it says "The day of the Lord" it means the Trib. It would have to be determined in the context of the chapter or speech being made. I'm, not saying I'm right, but there is more evidence saying that Mal 4 (especially 4:5) is talking about Jesus's first coming than about his second coming.
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post #38 of 38 (permalink) Old 03-26-2004, 09:05 AM
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All I know is that every book and every commentary that I have ever read interprets the Day of the Lord (including Malachi) as being the day of Gods wrath, i.e. tribulation.

I would almost bet that Are We Living in the End Times? explains it the same way also.
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