Originally posted by breadfan35
No, that is not the first Seal. The first and second Seals are the Antichrist bringing peace be signing the covenant of peace with the world. (Seal One) The he break the covenant by making war against the "three Kings" or "three horns", (Seal two) also predicted by Daniel: Daniel 7:8 " While I was thinking about the horns, thee before me was another horn, a little one which came up among them; and the three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully." The three horns are part of the ten horns which represent ten kings. These three kings try to rebel and the Antichirst will defeat them.
Those are the Tribulation saint that are killed due to not worshiping the Beast and staying true to their faith by not denying Christ.
I agree. But that sentence is worded to the Tribulation Saints. The ones who come to God during the Tribulation will have to die during the Tribulation. And they will not be dying in their sleep, they are going to be dying in horrible unimaginable ways. But they will keep their faith and strength because of the words God has for them in the Bible. He is telling them through this book (revelation) and all other books of the Bible that they need to be ready to go through what they will have to endure and to be strong and solid in their beliefs because benefits they will receive afterwards will far out weight the pain they had to go through to get it.
OK, lets focus on Rev. 13-1:7 for a moment. I said this was the first seal, and you said it was the first and the second seals. Correct? I will accept that.
My problem is this. If the church is supposedly raptured before the first seal, then how and why are there saints for the anti-christ (seal one) to make war against in seal two?
Also can you show me anywhere in the bible that calls the 70th week of Daniel the "Tribulation"? I know I have been calling it that but only for simplicity sake.
Originally posted by breadfan35
I'm going back to this one for a sec also...
Rather than explain what I think about each part of Matt 24 I'll just focus on this part since right now we are discussing the Rapture.
These verses are talking about the Glorious Appearing (second coming). Your first and most obvious clue is in the first four word of Matt 24:29 : Immediately after the tribulation Also why would Christians knowing they are about to be raptured because they see Jesus and hear aloud trumpet call be mourning at his sight? Plus this description matches the Son of Man coming on the clouds and then setting up his kingdom on earth of Daniel's description.
Daniel 7:13-14 In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like the Son of Man, coming with the clouds of Heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and His kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."
If you read it in context you will see what is meant by tribulation
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) this is the midpoint, right?
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation
, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Jesus just mentioned a great tribulation and then he says after the tribulation. He is speaking of the same thing. This "tribulation" period starts after the anti-christ seats himself in the Holy of Holies and declares himself god. and continues until the opening of the 6th seal. (Mat. 24:29b)
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. these mourning are not the saints, they are the tribes of the earth who have followed after the beast.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. this is describing the rapture as outlined in 1Th 4:16-17
Further by your own admittance, you said I don't think any Christians will be alive on earth when Jesus' second coming happens.
But you believe that verses 30 and 31 is the second coming. It states that when Jesus comes in the clouds that a trumpet is sounded and His "elect" is gathered. It doesn't jive, who is this "elect" that is being gathered if it isn't the saints being raptured and it isn't saints making it through the "tribulation"?
Might I also add this:
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshiped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
Here we see that the saints are not gathered together (raptured) until after the man of sin (anti-christ) is revealed. When is he revealed, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God
. Daniel calls it the "abomination made desolate" and says that it happens in the middle of the 70th week.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Originally posted by breadfan35
Tell you what, I'll read that book as soon as I get done with the books I already have to read. (just 3 more) But you should read Are We Living in the End Times? by Tim La Haye and Jerry B. Jenkins. Then everything would really make sense. Serioulsy though, you should read it also.
Well, I have not read it because I know basicly what it is going to say. I do like the fictional
Left Behind books though, I have read them all.
I will read it though since you asked.